|
| 9 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It came up in another thread that errata had changed the Pinned condition in the following manner:
In the Pinned condition, in the second sentence, change "flat-footed" to "denied its Dexterity bonus."
Am I right in taking this to mean the Pinned character is denied its Dexterity bonus to everything, i.e. Reflex Saves, Dex based Skills, AC, CMD, CMB (if have Agile Maneouvres or character is Tiny or smaller) etc?
Or should it actually read as "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC."?
|
I think it's because of the rewording of the Rogue and Barbarian ability to never be caught flat-footed (Uncanny Dodge).
With this new sentence, even barbarian or rogue lose their Dexterity bonus to AC and can be "sneak attacked".
So I think you can read it "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC"
|
|
I think it's because of the rewording of the Rogue and Barbarian ability to never be caught flat-footed (Uncanny Dodge).
With this new sentence, even barbarian or rogue lose their Dexterity bonus to AC and can be "sneak attacked".
So I think you can read it "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC"
Interesting, I am curious whether others interpret that in the same way, I know in another thread someone interpreted it as loss of Dex bonnus to everything.
Maybe its a FAQ candidate.
I originally was going to say 'yeah it's just AC' but went to read Grapple because Pinned is a more severe version of that condition. Grapple states you take a -4 to Dex which would mean everything that relies on Dex would be influenced not just AC. Apparently Pinned creatures lose Dex bonus across the board and take an additional penalty to AC.
FAQ'ed.
|
|
Yeah, it was during a conversation about Escape Artist having a better modifier when Pinned than when simply Grappling that someone pointed out the change to the Pinned condition and it was asserted that the loss of Dex bonus applied to Escape Artist too.
Of course either way it still doesn't make sense if your Dexterity is 13 (or less):
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC":
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned no Dex penalty leaves a positive Dex modifier
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to everything"
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned as losing Dex bonus results in a +0 modifier
|
Yeah, it was during a conversation about Escape Artist having a better modifier when Pinned than when simply Grappling that someone pointed out the change to the Pinned condition and it was asserted that the loss of Dex bonus applied to Escape Artist too.
Of course either way it still doesn't make sense if your Dexterity is 13 (or less):
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC":
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned no Dex penalty leaves a positive Dex modifierIf we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to everything"
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned as losing Dex bonus results in a +0 modifier
Then what is the point of escape artist? I guess the -2 from the grapple is reasonable, but otherwise it becomes a rank + class bonus (+ other bonuses) and that's it when pinned. It really becomes a very small bump, if any, from CMB.
|
|
Then what is the point of escape artist? I guess the -2 from the grapple is reasonable, but otherwise it becomes a rank + class bonus (+ other bonuses) and that's it when pinned. It really becomes a very small bump, if any, from CMB.
I imagine the ranks a character could have in Escape Artist (plus the +3 class bonus if applicable) can be significant even if they lost their Dex bonus.
Anyway, I just need to know what is meant by RAW as that is what I have to adhere to in Pathfinder Society.
Then what is the point of escape artist?
If you don't have full BAB, do have skill ranks to invest in it, do have a better DEX than STR, don't want to invest in Dextrous Maneuvers to use DEX for all CMB, then Escape Artist is preferable just on those grounds, even if it was penalized vs. a CMB check (because all your strengths are keyed to Escape Artist and not CMB, and the Feats/etc you would need to make CMB viable could be invested in Skill Focus:Escape Artist, etc) and of course you can use the skill for other things (squeezing thru small spaces). The DEX penalty applies to Escape Artist, but it would also apply to DEXtrous Maneuver CMB checks. As mentioned, Escape Artist starts with a +3 advantage vs. CMB, albeit attack bonuses can eventually cancel this out, I would say it is a net advantage over the range of PFS play at the least.
The Grappled -4 to DEX score can't really stack with Pinned's 'denied DEX bonus'... Paizo has said that you can always choose the most beneficial order of operations, so you simply apply the Grapple effect first (which it WAS applied first of course) and then negate any remaining DEX bonus (to AC, or whatever you rule). Re: denying DEX bonus to other things, as far as Reflex Saves that conflicts with everything I know, e.g. most Traps call for a Reflex Save when you are by default Flat-Footed, yet your Reflex Save isn't modified for lack of DEX bonus.
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC":
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned no Dex penalty leaves a positive Dex modifierIf we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to everything"
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned as losing Dex bonus results in a +0 modifier
Issues of applying to other non-AC things aside, I don't understand the basis of this differentiation here, and your conclusions for Pin in both cases. Pinned denies you your DEX 'bonus' not modifier, so it doesn't negate a negative DEX modifier (including from Grappled's penalty).
|
|
Issues of applying to other non-AC things aside, I don't understand the basis of this differentiation here, and your conclusions for Pin in both cases. Pinned denies you your DEX 'bonus' not modifier, so it doesn't negate a negative DEX modifier (including from Grappled's penalty).If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC":
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned no Dex penalty leaves a positive Dex modifierIf we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to everything"
- Grappled as a -4 Dexterity results in a negative Dex modifier
- Pinned as losing Dex bonus results in a +0 modifier
I think you missed the line directly above the part you quoted
Of course either way it still doesn't make sense if your Dexterity is 13 (or less):
Basically if your Dexterity is 13 or less, you have a better Dexterity modifier when Pinned than you do when Grappled, no matter how you read the Pinned condition:
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC":
- Grappled: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) suffering a -4 Dexterity penalty results in a -1 Dex modifier
- Pinned: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) with no Dexterity penalty leaves the Dexterity modifier at +1
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to everything"
- Grappled: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) suffering a -4 Dexterity penalty results in a -1 Dex modifier
- Pinned: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) denied the Dexterity bonus leaves the Dexterity modifier at +0
So no matter which way you read it when Pinned your Dex modifier is always better when Pinned than when Grappled as long as your Dexterity Score is 13 or less to begin with.
So your Escape Artist modifier can be better when Pinned, and is only worse (assuming the reading of "denied its Dexterity bonus to everything") if your Dexterity score is 16 or more (Grappled would be a +1 modifier, Pinned would be +0).
* * *
Of course when your Foe has you pinned, in addition to the -4 Dexterity penalty they suffer for having the Grappled condition, they additionally lose their Dex bonus to AC (and thus CMD) and thus if your Foe has a Dexterity of 16 or more, your DC to escape (your foe's CMD) will be less, in addition to you likely having a better Escape Artist modifier.
So yeah, it can often be easier to escape from Pinned than Grappled - its screwed up and counter-intuitive but there it is. I would still like to know how to rule the Pinned condition in PFS though.
Actually thinking about it, because of the way Paizo changed how Ability penalties work (you don't recalculate your Ability score and work out the new modifier, instead you simply suffer a -1 penalty to skills and statistics for every 2 points of damage or penalty you suffer) if the foe is suffering -4 Dexterity penalty and loses Dex Bonus to AC (and thus CMD) do those stack?
I.e. you lose your Dexterity Bonus and then suffer a -1 penalty to Dex based statistics (i.e. AC and CMD), so does their Dex modifier become effectively -2 for purposes of AC and CMD?
I think I may start another thread for that.
|
|
NOTE: The below post was in response to a post by Quandry that has either been deleted or disappeared. My explanation is still pertinent however so I will leave it be.
You aren't spelling out your reasoning very clearly, but it seems like you are conflating the bolded terms, and thinking that the effects of both Conditions re: DEX score/ DEX modifier would normally stack
I didn't manage to follow all that you were saying so apologies for that, but here is my reasoning:
A grappled creature cannot use Stealth to hide from the creature grappling it, even if a special ability, such as hide in plain sight, would normally allow it to do so. If a grappled creature becomes invisible, through a spell or other ability, it gains a +2 circumstance bonus on its CMD to avoid being grappled, but receives no other benefit.
I recognise that the Grappled and Pinned conditions do not stack, you either have one condition or the other, not both.
If you are grappled you suffer a -4 Dexterity Penalty that results in a -2 to Dexterity checks, Dexterity based Skill checks, Reflex Saves, AC and CMD. So if you are making an Escape Artist check to try to escape the Grapple you suffer a -2 penalty to that check (as it is a Dex based skill).
However if you get pinned, you no longer suffer the -4 Dexterity Penalty (it isn't mentioned anywhere in the Pinned condition). You are however denied your Dexterity bonus and suffer an additional -4 to AC (and thus CMD).
Now if we interpret "denied its Dexterity bonus" to mean "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC" then the pinned character suffers absolutely no penalties to any Dexterity Checks, Dexterity based Skill checks or Reflex Saves. So if you are making an Escape Artist check to escape the Pin no penalty would apply (as opposed to a -2 penalty if just Grappled).
Now if we interpret "denied its Dexterity bonus" to mean "denied its Dexterity bonus to all Dexterity related checks and statistics" then any pinned character with a Dex bonus would suffer a penalty (in the form of a loss of Dex bonus) to any Dexterity Checks, Dexterity based Skill checks or Reflex Saves. So if you are making an Escape Artist check to escape the Pin you could suffer:
No penalty (if your Dex is 11 or less)
-1 penalty (if your Dex is 12 or 13)
-2 penalty (if your Dex is 14 or 15)
-3 or worse (if your Dex is 16 or greater)
So in the first interpretation ("denied its Dexterity bonus to AC") the Escape Artist check is easier if Pinned than if Grappled.
And even in the second interpretation ("denied its Dexterity bonus to all Dexterity related checks and statistics") the Escape Artist check is still easier if Pinned than if Grappled as long as your Dexterity is 13 or less.
So with either interpretation you can get screwy results, but under the first interpretation ("denied its Dexterity bonus to AC") you will always get screwy results.
NOTE: In either interpretation of the Pinned condition the character's AC is reduced by any Dex bonus and then a further -4 AC applies, all of which applies to CMD too.
Of course when your Foe has you pinned, in addition to the -4 Dexterity penalty they suffer for having the Grappled condition, they additionally lose their Dex bonus to AC (and thus CMD) and thus if your Foe has a Dexterity of 16 or more, your DC to escape (your foe's CMD) will be less
I agree this is the implication of the RAW... Probably isn't often encountered because most Grapplers don't have very high DEX scores, no doubt because Grappling is inherently skewed against DEX builds because it penalizes DEX. Although this result seems bizarre-o at face value, there does seem like a basis for why DEX builds would be especially bad PINNERS... If you are holding the victim immobilized then you would be semi-immobilized yourself and couldn't use your full dextrousness, STR is really the ultimate factor when immobilizing (Pinning) somebody. All I can say is to repeat "DEX Grappling builds are just not a good idea", and that is the design intent AFAIK.
The wording for Pinned is more broadly problematic by RAW because it DOESN'T actually say you cannot take any actions except the ones specifically allowed (although that seems the clear intent to me), it just says you can take 'few' actions and then says you can take several specific ones, only actually barring somatic/material spellcasting. It says 'you cannot move' but that is exactly what Grappled says itself, thus per RAW there is no limitation on actions beyond Grappled and the no somatic/material spells.
because of the way Paizo changed how Ability penalties work... if the foe is suffering -4 Dexterity penalty and loses Dex Bonus to AC (and thus CMD) do those stack?
I think your conclusion there is valid, albeit you do have to realize that the ability damage/penalty rules are just rather borked over all, due to affecting only a limited list of things. To name something related to the topic at hand, a DEX penalty by RAW simply does not affect DEX-utilizing Weapon Finesse attacks or Agile Maneuvers CMB attacks (although if you are Tiny or smaller, effectively getting Agile Maneuvers for free in all but name, it does affect CMB checks). There are several other issues as well, not confined to DEX... I can't remember them all off-hand, but it came up in the forums a while ago, still no Errata or anything. :-(
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to AC":
- Grappled: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) suffering a -4 Dexterity penalty results in a -1 Dex modifier
- Pinned: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) with no Dexterity penalty leaves the Dexterity modifier at +1
If we read it as "denied its Dexterity bonus to everything"
- Grappled: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) suffering a -4 Dexterity penalty results in a -1 Dex modifier
- Pinned: Dex 13 (+1 bonus) denied the Dexterity bonus leaves the Dexterity modifier at +0
It was hard for me to understand because you didn't really explain it before, and you sort of conflated the usage of bonus/penalty in your presentation (a 'no no'), but I now see that if we go by the PRPG approach to ability penalties, it is reasonable to see how 'denial of DEX bonus' and 'penalty to DEX checks' (the checks the RAW specifies) ARE modifiers of the same things, and thus would NORMALLY stack... Since they explicitly DON'T stack, that means that one is cancelled out and the other fully applied.
If we went by the 3.x approach, where they are not normally stacking, then 'not stacking' has no effect on cancelling out one, and so you would just get the lowest of: [-4 DEX or zero DEX bonus]. This is honestly how I originally saw the issue, and didn't get anything from your quoted post addressing that crucial distinction...
SO... Pinned says it is a more severe version of Grappled and their effects don't stack, meaning one modifier is cancelled completely and the other is fully applied... The irony of course is that in this case (with the right DEX stats) Pinned ISN'T really more severe. IMHO, one SHOULD simply apply the more severe effect, which is in-line with how 'non-stacking' effects usually work, even though that is effectively going against the explanatory text here (that Pinned is stronger, in context of non-stacking... it seems hard to classify this as either fully rules text or 'fluff' text). Doing that for this 'modifier' specifically (retaining the rest of the Pinned features) does require strict application of the 'stacking' term (i.e. you still have the Grapple condition, only actual stacking scenarios are prevented). I think the difference between technical 'non-stacking' situations over-writing the same class of modifier vs. your apparent assumption of 'non-stacking' simply negating the Grapple Condition as a whole, was why I wasn't understanding your contrast between 'deny DEX bonus to AC vs. everything'. I always understood that you still retain the Grapple condition when you have the Pinned condition, which was different from how you viewed it.
EDIT: Damn, I thought I could delete, edit, and re-post this, after I realized how the specific PRPG approach to stat penalties was crucially important... I was hoping to AVOID you seeing the post before I could edit it... 8-O
|
|
If you read 'not stacking' a bit more broadly than normal rules usage, i.e. that if you have Pinned condition you no longer have the Grappled condition,
That is exactly how I read it, you have one condition or the other. If that is not what Paizo meant they should have made it clearer or ideally have duplicated all the bits of the Grapple condition that do still apply in the Pinned condition and then have it as either/or.
EDIT: Damn, I thought I could delete, edit, and re-post this, after I realized how the specific PRPG approach to stat penalties was crucially important... I was hoping to AVOID you seeing the post before I could edit it... 8-O
Fear my awesome ninja skills! :)
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Yes, I think the wonkiness in that specific case can be dealt with by invoking the existing 'stacking' game term, so that we end up using the worst penalties of Grapple/Pinned. By the terms of the stacking concept, the largest modifier applies, which means that Grapple's -4 DEX penalty (really -2 to checks) would take precedence over Pin's negation of bonus to checks. Although in this case, where one is a fixed 'vector' (-2) and the other is not a fixed vector but a 'set to ZERO' function, it is diverging from the framework of what the standard stacking rules contemplates... to compare them in order to resolve the non-stacking we are forced to 'step back' and look at the 'effective modifier' of 'set to zero' (which varies depending on your existing stats) vs. '-2' rather than simply compare vector scaling of +/- X vs. Y like normal modifiers work. I would say that can be called 'non-obvious'.
The thought had occured to me that explicitly having Pin negate Grapple but re-iterate any common features could have been clearer.
|
|
Yes, I think the wonkiness in that specific case can be dealt with by a strict application of the stacking concept, which is an existing game term. By the terms of that concept, the largest modifier applies, which means that Grapple's -4 DEX penalty (really -2 to checks) would take precedence over Pin's negation of bonus to checks. The thought had occured to me that explicitly having Pin negate Grapple but re-iterate any common features could have been clearer.
I just flagged that as a FAQ candidate because if it is meant to be as you described then its a big change to me.
|
|
Here it is in the FAQ
Alas that doesn't answer my question, which was:
Does "denied its Dexterity bonus" mean " denied its Dexterity bonus to AC" or "denied its Dexterity bonus to all statistics that would normally benefit from such a bonus, e.g. Dex based Skill checks including Escape Artist"?| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Only to AC.
Off the top of my head, I can think of nothing in game that denies your DEX bonus to Saves, Skills, Initiative, or anything at all except AC.
The phrase is always "denied his DEX bonus to AC" but everybody, apparently even the devs, gets lazy and just says "denied his DEX bonus". We all do it. I do it. You do it. Devs do it.
The devs shouldn't do it in the official rules text, but I'm quite sure that is exactly what they did right here.
|
|
I originally was going to say 'yeah it's just AC' but went to read Grapple because Pinned is a more severe version of that condition. Grapple states you take a -4 to Dex which would mean everything that relies on Dex would be influenced not just AC. Apparently Pinned creatures lose Dex bonus across the board and take an additional penalty to AC.
You don't take an additional penalty - Pinned replaces Grappled, so you lose the -4 penalty but instead lose your whole bonus.
I originally was going to say 'yeah it's just AC' but went to read Grapple because Pinned is a more severe version of that condition. Grapple states you take a -4 to Dex which would mean everything that relies on Dex would be influenced not just AC. Apparently Pinned creatures lose Dex bonus across the board and take an additional penalty to AC.You don't take an additional penalty - Pinned replaces Grappled, so you lose the -4 penalty but instead lose your whole bonus.
I believe you are correct, but it's one of the wonky things about this game.
A guy with 10 DEX who is grappled becomes easier to hit because that -4 DEX modifier drops his AC by 2. But when he gets pinned, he loses that modifier and his DEX goes back to its normal value of 10 and now all he loses is his DEX bonus which is 0. So his Pinned AC is +2 higher than his Grappled AC.
In fact, getting pinned only hurts the AC of the victim if his normal DEX is 16 or higher, at which point his lost modifier is greater than the lost AC because of the -4 DEX penalty.
Maybe that's why they added a flat -4 AC penalty to being Pinned, just to offset this wonky behavior. Me, I would have rather they let the penalty stack with the loss of modifier (applied after losing the modifier) - it would have been a bit simpler.
|
That penalty to AC as you said is exactly why it is worded that way. In effect being pinned puts you very close to immobilized (having a Dex of 0) but not quite as bad. You have no dex bonus (but still have a penalty) and -4 ac.
Compare a Dex 18 and a Dex 12 and a Dex 8 person grappled and pinned.
Dex 18 Grappled, AC reduced by 2, Pinned, AC reduced by 8
Dex 12 Grappled, AC reduced by 2, Pinned AC reduced by 5
Dex 8 Grappled, AC reduced by 2, Pinned AC reduced by 4 (but 5 total because of his already lower dex)
The more agile you are the more pinned hurts your AC, which makes sense. Also if you have a low dex you are as easy to hit as an immobilized target (because you are effectively taking a -8 to dex for the purpose of AC, instead of the set to 0).
Just because you gain the Pinned condition doesn't mean you lose the Grappled condition.
Does it?
Perhaps not, but since the effects don't stack, you'll never suffer the penalties from grappled and pinned at the same time. It will always be one or the other.
|
Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple.
A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class.
So Grappled AND Pinned:-
Dexterity: -4 penalty to Dex score and lose Dex bonus (but not penalty) to AC. There is also an additional -4 penalty to AC.
So there is no way a Pinned creature is better off than an un-Pinned Grappled creature.
It says a -4 additional penalty to AC. The only thing it can be additional to is the 'lose Dex bonus', because there is no other AC penalty. So losing Dex bonus must the Dex bonus to AC.