degodave |
Hi,
I'm working on a multi-level dungeon crawl (I've only GM'd two crawls before) where the players will enter as level two characters. I'm hoping to allow them to level up to level three before they finish the adventure, but may need some advice on doing that.
Are there any tips on populating part of the dungeon with monsters appropriate for level two characters, and then finishing it off with those appropriate for level three characters? Or would I just fill the whole thing with level 2 monsters and let them have an advantage for the second part?
Thanks in advance.
Mark Garringer |
Are there any tips on populating part of the dungeon with monsters appropriate for level two characters, and then finishing it off with those appropriate for level three characters? Or would I just fill the whole thing with level 2 monsters and let them have an advantage for the second part?
I'd say try to plan the CR for your encounters to be something between CR3 and CR5 for the whole design. 3 CR 1 creatures is a CR 3 encounter, but 1 CR 3 creature is also a CR 3 encounter. It's also easy to 'add on the fly' since you are doing the design yourself. Plan a few places where you could make a CR 3 encounter a CR 4 encounter by adding another CR 1 creature of the same type. Fighting 1 CR 3 monsters at 2nd level might be a good/fun challenge, but fighting 2 CR 3 monsters at 3rd level might not. Fighting 5 CR 1s at 3rd level should give a fun fight.
Also these rules are from the Pathfinder Core, but give you a lot of insight into all this: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
Adamantine Dragon |
I generally do these sorts of things with a theme and build a set of encounters based on that theme. I've done it with "rescue the prisoners of the goblin raiders" or "remove the threat of the evil dragon" or even "explore the undead crypt and discover its secrets."
I find that the crawl is more interesting if there is something more than just "go from room to room and kill all the inhabitants you find."
In your case I would have probably two levels with each level having a boss encounter and the entry to the lower level is revealed by defeating the upper level boss. That gives the players a palpable sense of increasing threat as they delve deeper into the dungeon.
Mark Garringer |
I'd say try to plan the CR for your encounters to be something between CR3 and CR5 for the whole design. 3 CR 1 creatures is a CR 3 encounter, but 1 CR 3 creature is also a CR 3 encounter. It's also easy to 'add on the fly' since you are doing the design yourself. Plan a few places where you could make a CR 3 encounter a CR 4 encounter by adding another CR 1 creature of the same type. Fighting 1 CR 3 monsters at 2nd level might be a good/fun challenge, but fighting 2 CR 3 monsters at 3rd level might not. Fighting 5 CR 1s at 3rd level should give a fun fight.
Also these rules are from the Pathfinder Core, but give you a lot of insight into all this: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
Ugh. I just realized some of my math was off there ;) See what happens when you post with low blood sugar kids?
Same monsters CR = CR + <number of monters> so 3 CR 1 creatures is actually a CR 4 encounter. But again, for a level 3 part is slightly more of a challenge, but for a level 3 party may make them feel stronger than they are. You can add a 4th creature to the level 3 party encounter if they are not feeling challenged. Like having another creature show up on round 2 or 3 of the fight etc.
So, concept of what I'm saying = good. Math on what I'm saying = mostly right ;)
Steve Geddes |
I'd make a couple of levels and have the top level use encounters with CRs of predominantly 1, 2 and occasionally 3 with a CR4 or even CR5 encounter at the entrance to the next level. Then increase that slightly for the second level - say predominantly CR2, CR3 and a few CR4 encounters with a CR5 "big finish".
The table on p27 of the GM's book makes encounter design a pretty straightforward task. Select the difficulty you want and then "spend" roughly the appropriate number of experience points selecting monsters and/or traps which seem to make sense for the dungeon's "story".
Once I was done, I'd just run through and sum up all the experience points the PCs are likely to get. If they're going in at the start of level two, they'll go up a level once they've amassed a total of 3000xp each. If you put in enough encounters to give them an additional 4000xp each beyond that (ie if your total experience point value of all challenges they're likely to encounter and overcome is greater than 7000 times the number of players) then they could easily reach fourth level. If you pack too many encounters into the upper level, they may well advance too quickly.
Hmm...I didnt say that very well. Hopefully it makes sense and/or someone will say it better.
DarkLightHitomi |
Considering a good GM is supposed to be able to adjust on the fly, I would design the entire dungeon merely by ballparking the encounters and focus more on the "feel" of the dungeon. Once you have it made and run a couple times with players you then adjust certain elements based on those first few run throughs.
A good GM won't need you to balance or worry about getting specific CRs, so build and share with some decent and experienced GMs, they can then run it and give you feedback on what worked well and what needed more work.
Consider it like writing a paper, step 1 outline, step 2 draft, step 3 read, play, & revise, step 4 second draft, etc
archmagi1 |
How powerful are your players? Do they 1 round single enemies routinely? Is there a paladin? What sort of dungeon theme (cave, ruin, castle, undead, goblins, orcs, etc.) do you want to run? Static reaction or dynamic / living dungeon?
Dungeon design is hard. My typical design process is as follows:
1) What kind of dungeon is it? A cave full of hobgoblins.
2) How strong is my party? VERY++ (45ish point buy equiv from rolls in current game)
3) How many encounters can I expect them to fight before retreating? 7-10
4) How difficult do I want it to be? Mild to Medium
5) Static or Dynamic? Always dynamic for me at least
6) How many sessions do I want to devote to / can my players tolerate a minimal RP hackfest? 1 max, even the roll player starts to get bored
Now you should have some basic data about what you want to accomplish with your dungeon. You already have some pieces (enough XP for level transition, big enough that they can see the benefits of their ding), so lets work from there.
If you gauge your player's party as "Weak" or that they'll retreat after 5 or fewer encounters, you'll want to lower the CR some. A skeleton is a CR 1/3 creature. By the "CR Equivalency" table in the CRB, 4 of them (CR+4) would be equivalent to a CR 3 (1/3 -> 1/2 -> 1 -> 2 -> 3) encounter, which should be a challenge for a 4-man party of "weak to average" PC's. This 200xp per PC encounter is ~7% of the advancement needed to get to level 3 (so if they're starting out as level 2, you'll need 15 CR3 encounters before they'll ding).
So say you want an undead filled catacomb. We'll make it three levels deep, and you anticipate the party will be level 3 before venturing down to level 3. Lets assume the party is starting the dungeon 33% toward their next level (only 2000xp to go til 3).
Ideally you want to give your players a mix of fun & easy and stressing & tough encounters throughout. Lets take your 2000xp and break down enough encounters on levels 1 and 2 to get them leveled up before the BBEG floor:
2 CR1 encounters: 200xp
2 CR2 traps: 300xp
3 CR2 encounters: 450xp
1 CR3 trap: 200xp
3 CR3 encounters: 600xp
1 CR4 puzzle / hazardous non-fight encounter: 300xp
Total XP: 2050, exceeds our 2000 xp "need"
This gives you, over the course of 11 events, 2 "easy", 5 "average", 4 "challenging" and 1 "hard" encounters. Depending on how fast your party fights / clears obstacles & how long you play this is probably 2 game sessions. They've cleared out the top two floors, got some loot and found an ominous warning of what awaits them in the depths below. They head back to town, and prep for the boss level.
OOPS! Dynamic dungeon, that CR4 puzzle they solved opened the sealed crypt below and boom, the boss monster attacks the town in the middle of the night. CR5 monster with a handful of CR1/3 to CR1 lackeys should be a pretty fun and difficult fight for the party, just remember to scale the lackeys on the groups ability to fight with no prep time (unarmored fighters, maybe lack of prepared spells). Now all they have to do is go investigate the (still trapped) third level to haul out the rest of their loot / quest item.
amethal |
Hi,
I'm working on a multi-level dungeon crawl (I've only GM'd two crawls before) where the players will enter as level two characters. I'm hoping to allow them to level up to level three before they finish the adventure, but may need some advice on doing that.
Are there any tips on populating part of the dungeon with monsters appropriate for level two characters, and then finishing it off with those appropriate for level three characters? Or would I just fill the whole thing with level 2 monsters and let them have an advantage for the second part?
Thanks in advance.
There aren't any hard and fast rules for this kind of thing.
The "traditional" way to do it would be to have mostly level 2 monsters on the first level, and mostly level 3 monsters on the second level.
Since (I'm assuming) the players are beginners, I would suggest making it obvious where the first level ends and the second level starts, and dropping some hints that the second level is more dangerous. (My favourite method is to make it clear that the monsters on the first level are afraid of the monsters on the second level - for example, the stairs down to the second level are blocked by a heavy barricade, with a cauldron of oil nearby for pouring on anyone who comes up.)
I'd also recommend having different "themes" for the two levels, to make the transition more interesting. A nice example of a "dual theme" dungeon is the 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons adventure "The Sunless Citadel".
Its perfectly fine to have the occasional easy encounter on the "hard" level, and the ocasional hard encounter on the "easy" level. And remind the players that its okay (and even expected) that the characters will leave the dungeon from time to time in order to rest, and that it is not compulsory to clear out every room. However, as the dungeon is a dynamic environment, things might have changed when they go back in.
DarkLightHitomi |
@Archmagi1
Most of your advice assumes that the players are known. However good design doesn't assume known players, nor do we know whether he is designing for known players or for for general use. Besides, adjusting for your players is the last step, particularly if you want to share your work and have other GMs use it, since their players would be different.
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Everything written into the dungeon should be a guide for any GM too use for any group of players. It is not possible to write any kind of adventure and make fit any or even most groups and not require significant adjucation by the GM. Don't write for incompetent GMs, that does no favors for anyone, least of all the GMs who use it, instead write for an unimaginitive, linguistically challanged, but competent GM. In this way, incompetents will eventually become competent through actual practice of the skills needed, and it will be more usefull and easily used by the majority of GMs.
Note, my idea of writing for incompetent GMs would be described as making the adventure like a science recipe of explicitly stating every little detail of what and how many, and exacting instructions on every attack and tactic used.
Writing for competent but unimaginative and linguistically challanged GMs, can be described as writing the overall general concept of each encounter, background info, and loot, all without being very specific except for those items that are neccessary for the continuation of the story, and written in a clear, unassuming fashion.
Example,
Writing for the incompetent GM,
The room has two goblins that attack from the table with shields and axes, while a third attacks from across the room useing a shortbow, and a scout throws daggers from the left.
If they heard the attack outside however, then they ready an ambush placing a tripwire across the door, one goes up the chandelier, and one axe wielding guard on either side of the door. and sent the scout to the guard captain who will arrive in the room in 5 rounds.
The loot in the room includes three bottles of rum, two turtledoves, and a partridge in a pear tree holding the key door "A." The exact stats and locations for the goblins and trap are in the sidebar.
Writing for a competent GM,
The room has a few guards who are on duty and are quite alert and may heard the fight outside if any noise was made. If they heard the scuffle outside, they will have set up an ambush and sent a message to the guard captain who will alert the other guards in the dungeon and will race to reinforce this room. The loot in this room is mostly just food stuffs and a few knick knacks, nothing of real value, except the key to door "A."
Some suggested stats for these guards are in the bestiary at the back of the adventure along with a couple possible traps.
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Notice how the first example leaves little room for a GM to fit the dungeon into their game with their players (what if they have OP players, or weak players, or no trapfinding rogue)? While the second gives a GM the idea of what's going on yet leaves it to the GM to fit the specifics their own setting, story, and unique group of players. In fact the second example even avoids mentioning what race the guards are to be less confusing if a GM trades out the goblins for something else, like kobalds or orcs and doesn't specify how long it takes the guard captain to reinforce the room, allowing the GM to make the captain arrive at a good dramatic time.
The goal of an adventure module is to tell a story and sometimes assist GMs with writer's block, or who aren't very imaginitive with creating interesting stories for the players.
Dorian 'Grey' |
Remember too that all these 'stats' are needed, but don't forget to follow your Theme. Players do get bored just going from room to room killing seemingly random monsters with absolutely no relationship to their existances. There should be a reason for these encounters and some mystery for the players to solve to keep their interest along the way. If in room 1 there are skeletons but in room 2 there is an Ogre.....that just don't make sense unless there is a connection/reason for the Ogre to be randomly hanging out next door to some undead skeletons! Theme is important along with the monsters.
degodave |
Wow. Here I'd been waiting for two weeks for a reply since apparently my settings don't notify me of subsequent posts, and suddenly I stumble back here and find all of these helpful responses. Thanks a lot! I'll read through these and I'm sure this will help me to plan something fun and dangerous for all. :)