why switch hitter?


Advice


hi,
other than RP, why ever play a switch hitter now there's the feat "point blank shot" that allow to shoot from melle range?
let's take level 7 ranger: STR 18, sword +1, power attack, wp focus
attack : 7+4+1+1-2=11/6
damage : 2d6+6+6+1=14*2=28

with arrows: dex 18, str 14, bow +1, wp focus
manyshot, rapid shot, point blank, deadly aim:
to hit : 7+4+1+1+1-2-2=10/10/10/5 (many/rapid/normal )
damage : 1d8+1+1+4+2=12.5*4=50

any way i look at it - its better to stand and shoot...
what am i missing ?

Sovereign Court

Well, against any random given enemy, yeah, you'll deal more damage with a bow and arrows. But if you're facing an enemy with high DR, or enemies get up close, or the use a Wind Wall spell or something, archers are shit out of luck. Being a switch hitter really only requires the Quick Draw feat, and the added versatility is usually worth it.

Also, I think you might be a little confused about Point Blank Shot. It slightly increases your attack and damage at close range, but you still trigger attacks of opportunity while shooting a ranged weapon, and you don't get to take them against others.


I think you mean point blank master?

Well its cooler and more thematic to hit things with a big sword. Also treantmonk advocated it, and I don't think his guide was made after Cluster Shot and possibly even Point Blank Master.


it is not point blank shot, it is point blank master the one that let you attack without provoking AoO.


Switch Hitters function from level 2 or 3. Point blank master has rather higher prerequisites.


thanks
and the ubber guide of TM was made pre to point blank master.
(and ye i meant that feat)
also, VS DR, clustered shot make it irrelevent.
and last - its WAY easoer to have versitle arrows over several good swords.


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Atarlost wrote:
Switch Hitters function from level 2 or 3. Point blank master has rather higher prerequisites.

???

ranger level 6
zen archer level 6
fighter level 5

not really high...


666bender wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Switch Hitters function from level 2 or 3. Point blank master has rather higher prerequisites.

???

ranger level 6
zen archer level 6
fighter level 5

not really high...

But those are the levels where melee will dominate archery. Until level 6 archery is inferior to two handed melee, The switch hitter is a melee build first. He picks up archery at level 2 or 3 when he has both quickdraw and rapidshot. Since he uses a melee weapon against foes in melee he doesn't need to get precise shot or improved precise shot from bonus feats, which means he gets manyshot a level earlier. The switch hitter will pick up clustered shots at the same time. He'll do more damage with less accuracy because he has a melee stat distribution, but otherwise equal the dedicated archer at long range combat.

The pure archer cannot fill a front line roll for a quarter of a 20 level game, or nearly a third of a 16 level game, or closer to half of a 12 level game. If your party needs a front line presence the point blank master build just won't do the job unless starting at level 6 or higher.


Atarlost wrote:
666bender wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
Switch Hitters function from level 2 or 3. Point blank master has rather higher prerequisites.

???

ranger level 6
zen archer level 6
fighter level 5

not really high...

But those are the levels where melee will dominate archery. Until level 6 archery is inferior to two handed melee, The switch hitter is a melee build first. He picks up archery at level 2 or 3 when he has both quickdraw and rapidshot. Since he uses a melee weapon against foes in melee he doesn't need to get precise shot or improved precise shot from bonus feats, which means he gets manyshot a level earlier. The switch hitter will pick up clustered shots at the same time. He'll do more damage with less accuracy because he has a melee stat distribution, but otherwise equal the dedicated archer at long range combat.

The pure archer cannot fill a front line roll for a quarter of a 20 level game, or nearly a third of a 16 level game, or closer to half of a 12 level game. If your party needs a front line presence the point blank master build just won't do the job unless starting at level 6 or higher.

before 6th level Quickdraw do not really help a lot the switch hitter.


That's not really relevant, it just means non-human switch hitters don't suffer the delay on effective switch hitting (as long as they're not using a reach polearm in which case they'd want quickdraw to get AoOs). Either way they're filling the front line role for 5 levels before the archer ranger.

Sovereign Court

Also, the switch hitter has backup plans against both enemies that frustrate archery - through wind wall, cover, invisibility and so forth, and on the other hand enemies you really don't want to get into melee range with.


And zombies. Paizo has printed ludicrous blunt arrows that do full damage, but has avoided printing actual historical broadhead or sickle arrows that do slashing damage.


The point really to me is that although you will never be quite as good at either one, you will never be out of the fight. Like many here have said wind, cover, types of DR, being disarmed, specific spells...they all can impede using Archery. If your a switch hitter, you can always for a modest feat investment, pull out that big beefy two hander and finish the fight up close and personal.


Atarlost wrote:
And zombies. Paizo has printed ludicrous blunt arrows that do full damage, but has avoided printing actual historical broadhead or sickle arrows that do slashing damage.

No matter how wide is the point of the arrow, it's still piercing damage, it simply pierces a unusually wide hole.


I most campaigns versatility will beat specialization as long as your still pretty good both options. More options in combat, better able to fill combat roles in the party, a switch hitter fits more easily into a party then a dedicated archer, harder to stifle. And the all important for roleplaying purposes my character makes sense if your into that sort of thing.


Yeah I guess for DR/slashing, or the cool factor, but mechanically in PF archery does the most damage. My ranger now level 9 doesn't carry a melee weapon, and doesn't have PBM, but has no problem taking AoO's if necessary and will continue shooting even when toe-to-toe with the enemy.

The way to look at switch hitting is from the perspective of building a 2HF that doesn't need many feats, throw him some Deadly Aim and Dual Shot and give him a decent bow, and yeah, he'll be a switch hitter for the first round, and decent against fliers, but better in melee with his greatsword.


666bender wrote:

hi,

other than RP, why ever play a switch hitter now there's the feat "point blank shot" that allow to shoot from melle range?
let's take level 7 ranger: STR 18, sword +1, power attack, wp focus
attack : 7+4+1+1-2=11/6
damage : 2d6+6+6+1=14*2=28

with arrows: dex 18, str 14, bow +1, wp focus
manyshot, rapid shot, point blank, deadly aim:
to hit : 7+4+1+1+1-2-2=10/10/10/5 (many/rapid/normal )
damage : 1d8+1+1+4+2=12.5*4=50

any way i look at it - its better to stand and shoot...
what am i missing ?

You don't just add up damage (and you added up the greatsword wrong: 2d6+6+6+1=20, not 14), you have to take the enemy's AC into account.

Look at the median APL +2 enemy (who worries about killing APL=CL monsters, they're easy?)

Median CR9 monster has an AC of 23 and median HP of 115. That gives you a 45% chance to hit on your first sword attack and a 40% chance to hit on your rapid shot arrows.

So, your greatsword full attack DPR is (0.45*(20+0)+0.1*0.45*20*1)+(0.2*(20+0)+0.1*0.2*20*1) = 9.9+4.4 = 14.3 DPR or 8 rounds to kill it. (And your DPR bumps up to 16.5 if you have Furious Focus.)

Your archery full attack is (0.4*(12.5+12.5)+0.05*0.4*12.5*2)+(0.4*(12.5)+0.05*0.4*12.5*2)+(0.15*(12.5) +0.05*0.15*12.5*2) = 10.5+5.5+2.1 = 18.1 or 6.4 rounds to kill it.

You only kill the monster 1.5 rounds faster with archery. But archery is a much more feat intensive path, even a ranger can't do much else. (With only 2 feats invested, the 2 hander is 3.8 DPR behind, 3 feats brings him to 1.6 DPR behind. The archer is using 5 feats on increasing his bow damage, and there is no end in sight.) Also, you have to deal with things like cover and AoOs until you get Point Blank Master, and you have a harder time punching through DR, etc.

There are tradeoffs, pure archery is more damage, yes. But it's not so much more damage that swinging a two hander is useless in comparison. And the ability to do things like Cornugon Smash or not worry about cover make switch hitting a viable path as well.

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