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A Wild Shape question


Rules Questions

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Is there anything that says a druid has to Wild Shape into the same size as the typical animal she wants to turn into? Could one, for example, choose to turn into a Huge Wolf or a Small Lion?


Azten wrote:
Is there anything that says a druid has to Wild Shape into the same size as the typical animal she wants to turn into? Could one, for example, choose to turn into a Huge Wolf or a Small Lion?

You have to turn into something that exists (and that doesn't have a template).

There are no Huge Wolves or Small Lions in the default Pathfinder, so you can't (as you can't polymorph into templated forms). If your GM rules that there are Huge Wolves or Small Lions in their setting, then you should be able to Wild Shape into them just fine.


Is there an FAQ or errata somewhere then? I'm not talking about templates, just using wild shape to turn into something bigger or smaller than the norm, using wildshape rules.


You don't need a FAQ or errata to verify that you can only turn into animals that exist. Wild Shape works like the Beast Shape spells (and others). Those spells say you turn into animals or magical beasts of certain sizes. They don't say anything about creating your own animals.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

The bestiary has animals listed, they have specific sizes. To adjust that would require a template typically. Templated creatures aren't options for the wildshape. So no, you cannot pick your size when choosing the animal.

Sczarni

...no going to mention the elephant in the roooooom..... lolz

Yeh, you would have to use reduce/enlarge spells to change size (after changing?) Enlarge Animal could get you to Gargantuan (from Huge at 8th level, so that would be kinda cool).


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If you do not play PFS there is no reason you can't allow it. I've used just that in my own games for over a year now, and its been very nice. The fact that the stats given are static means it less of an obsession hunt to find 'the best form'.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
maouse wrote:

...no going to mention the elephant in the roooooom..... lolz

Yeh, you would have to use reduce/enlarge spells to change size (after changing?) Enlarge Animal could get you to Gargantuan (from Huge at 8th level, so that would be kinda cool).

Depends, if the wildshape increases your size, enlarge won't work (spell states that multiple spells that increase size don't stack). Animal Growth won't work as your type won't change and so you're not a valid target (unless you are actually an animal)

Sczarni

Skylancer4 wrote:
maouse wrote:

...no going to mention the elephant in the roooooom..... lolz

Yeh, you would have to use reduce/enlarge spells to change size (after changing?) Enlarge Animal could get you to Gargantuan (from Huge at 8th level, so that would be kinda cool).

Depends, if the wildshape increases your size, enlarge won't work (spell states that multiple spells that increase size don't stack). Animal Growth won't work as your type won't change and so you're not a valid target (unless you are actually an animal)

Su are not necessarily spells. Depends on GM a little here, most likely. Since technically nothing is stacking, I'd allow it to be used; reasoning being - the Su let's you take the form of a huge animal, it doesn't "grow you"; you are "essentially" just a "normal" huge animal, which can then be enhanced further.


It may be a Su, but the rules IRRC say it works as the spell beast shape which puts it within spell rules. Also remember that it is considered a polymorph so no other spell of that type will work (unless the druid decides)


The guide to Changing Shape might be of interest.


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Basically it depends on if your GM (or you, if you are the GM) allows templates for wildshaping. This is an issue my group is discussing and trying to come to a decision on right now.

I tend towards the "allow templates" camp myself.

Silver Crusade

I'm confused... what does a template have to do with anything?

If I have beast shape 3, and I can turn into a huge animal, I just use the huge animal stats from the spell. The animal only gives me special abilities.

Am I missing something?

And for clarity, I usually make the call in my game, that if you want an animal not in the bestiary, the player can just choose 2 abilities for the list. There is a lot of stuff in Golarion not in the bestiaries.


So is it ok for someone to turn into a colossal sparrow or a diminutive elephant?

I mean obviously there's not any reason it is overpowered, but I still don't think it's legal.

Silver Crusade

Wild shape functions as the spell, and the spell says a creature of the animal type of X size.

There is no rules saying you can't ask the game master "can I turn into a diminutive creature with scent and trample?"

Of course his response should be "why on earth do you want a diminutive creature with trample?"

Mechanically, the difference between a lion and a dire lion when using Beast shape 3 is reach and slightly better stats.

The bestiaries are not an exhaustive list of the animals of golarion.


Noble Knight WBC wrote:

Wild shape functions as the spell, and the spell says a creature of the animal type of X size.

There is no rules saying you can't ask the game master "can I turn into a diminutive creature with scent and trample?"

I shift in a huge creature with 15 claw attacks and pounce!

Of course you have to be a creature from the bestiary unless the GM creates stats for some other creatures. You can't just make crap up, you have to turn into a thing that exists.

Silver Crusade

MyTThor wrote:

So is it ok for someone to turn into a colossal sparrow or a diminutive elephant?

The elephant gets scent and trample.

The point of the thread is whether you can have off size animals, like Huge rats or tiny rhino's...

People started complaining about templates... I asked what templates had to do with the question, since the beast shape spells have stat rules already for size.

I see no reason someone can't turn into a huge wolf if they wanted, a dire dire wolf... the spell/wildshape is scaled to the level of the character, and there is little difference between a huge wolf and a huge dinosaur.

Maybe trip, but by 8th level, it's not that big of a deal that the druid or sorcerer/wizard can make a free trip after a melee attack. If the best thing a druid or wizard can do at 8th level is a trip attack, your pretty much screwed anyway.

Oh, and you can turn into a Gargantuan sparrow by RAW, It's called a Roc.


Noble Knight WBC wrote:
and there is little difference between a huge wolf and a huge dinosaur.

Except a wolf generally only gets one attack (bite) with scent and trip while the Dinosaur very likely has bite/claw/claw at least, and possibly rake and pounce, too. It's also possible to get a dinosaur like that with poison, and numerous other abilities that wolves never have.

Liberty's Edge

There's a difference in "It isn't broken (or more specifically, don't try and break it) so go for it" and "You can do it within the rules." IMO, the first is true and the second is not. Its a game, have fun with it.


Since this thread is in the RULES QUESTIONS section of the forums, I'd say that, no, you can't create animals that aren't in the books. With that in mind, however, I think I would allow you to add a template to the animal in a home game. It would make the animal shamans stack up better imo.

Silver Crusade

Ummm... again, why a template?

and to mplindustries... what dinosaurs are you looking at? Most huge dinosaurs have trample... and that's about it. Best dinosaur for beast shape 3 is Allosaurus which gets 3 attacks rake and pounce.

So, other than fluff, what is the difference between a stegosaurus and a huge wolf, or a Allosaurus and a huge cat?


Well, to make a creature larger than what it is depicted as in the Beastiary, to me, means that you are adding the Dire template to a creature that is not already dire, and fits the large size to make it huge.

There are rules for creating animals already in the Beastiary, so if your DM wanted to use those to make a Huge Lion, he/she totally could, but it would not be strict RAW.

EDIT: Grammer

Silver Crusade

O.K., There is some confusion here...

1. The spell Beast shape does NOT explicitly state that you have to use an animal from the bestiary... it just says choose an animal that is X to X in size. By the reading of the spell, you could pick an animal at the zoo and use a tape measure.

2. If your making a Huge wolf, you ARE choosing an animal from the bestiary, wolves have been a staple in fantasy games forever...

3. You don't need to "make" anything... apply the stats for the size according to the chart, adjust the attack strength on the size chart, and take what ever the animals special abilities that are allowed by the spell.

Wild shape specifically states that the druid has to be familiar with the animal, but that's as specific as it gets.

It also doesn't say you can't choose Unique creatures either (Grey Fang the Huge Dire Wolf king of the forest).

Seriously, unclench and let the player be creative and have fun, it's left vague for a reason.


Ok, it is obvious that you weren't really looking for peoples' input, just validation in the choice you've already made. For argument's sake, however, I will say that while you are correct that it doesn't explicitly state that the creature must be from the Bestiary, it does say that your character must be familiar with the creature. As there are no Huge Wolves, in any book, than one can surmise that they have not been found on Golarion....yet....therefore it would be hard for your character to be familiar with them. Like I said at the beginning of this exchange, for a home game, I would be in favor of you shifting into a Huge Wolf, but I think it would be a houserule implemented at your table. That is my two pennies.


Noble Knight WBC wrote:
1. The spell Beast shape does NOT explicitly state that you have to use an animal from the bestiary... it just says choose an animal that is X to X in size. By the reading of the spell, you could pick an animal at the zoo and use a tape measure.

What the spell actually says is:

Beast Shape I:
"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type."

Beast Shape II:
"This spell functions as beast shape I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Tiny or Large creature of the animal type."

Beast Shape III:
"This spell functions as beast shape II, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge creature of the animal type. This spell also allows you to take on the form of a Small or Medium creature of the magical beast type."

So, by the wording of the spell, you choose a creature based on its size and type. You don't say, "I want to be a huge creature that looks like a Wolf." You say, "I want to be a wolf," and then you look up stats for a wolf.

Noble Knight WBC wrote:
2. If your making a Huge wolf, you ARE choosing an animal from the bestiary, wolves have been a staple in fantasy games forever...

No, you're not using a creature from the bestiary because Huge wolves don't exist. Wolves are medium. Dire wolves are large. That is how they exist. You can't become creatures that don't exist.

Noble Knight WBC wrote:
Wild shape specifically states that the druid has to be familiar with the animal, but that's as specific as it gets.

That's as specific as it needs to be. If you're not familiar with a Huge wolf (for example, because one does not exist), then you can't become one.

Noble Knight WBC wrote:
It also doesn't say you can't choose Unique creatures either (Grey Fang the Huge Dire Wolf king of the forest).

"Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals."

Noble Knight WBC wrote:
Seriously, unclench and let the player be creative and have fun, it's left vague for a reason.

The rules are not vague, though. The rules are clear. You want them to be vague, though, to suit your desires.

In a home game, that's awesome. Go wild. And all along, people have said that the GM can decide that Huge wolves exist somewhere in his setting if he wants.

But in a rules question forum, I give the rules answer, not the "here's how you should house rule it" answer.


I don't think anyone is arguing that it would be overpowered. But I don't think it is vague. The spell says you can shift into a large animal (for instance). You look at the list of large animals, and you pick one. As this is the rules question forum, I think the RAW are clear that you choose one from the bestiary. If this had been the general discussion forum, or the house rules forum, I'd be saying that absolutely you can be different sized animals (within reason).

Silver Crusade

O.K. people, do you seriously read posts before responding?

First and foremost, this isn't my thread.. I just asked a simple question...what does templates have to do with the spell or the question?

As far as "Grey Fang", I didn't mean turn into him specifically. He's a wolf, he's huge, and if you know about him, it fulfills the criteria of wild shape. Such creatures exist in modules. Admittedly most are made with templates that do exclude using them.

And RAW means Rules As Written, unless is says Bestiary in the spell, it is indeed NOT RAW.

Summon monster has a specified list of creatures, beast shape does not. There are tons of modules, adventure paths, companions, chronicles... all with plenty of non-bestiary creatures for the shape spells.

My point was, as a game master, since the spell is indeed vague... it'd be easier to say "yes you can be a huge dire wolf" than have the player come in with some giant, dhampir, plague carrying, psionic dire wolf from some third party 3.5 book.

At the end of the day, it's a matter of skinning, since the spell by RAW doesn't care what the animal is. Beast shape makes no distinction between a huge wolf or a stegosaurus, other than the stegosaurus having better damage (2d6+STR vs 4d6+STR).

Polymorph has been a thorn in the side of the d20 system for a LONG time, and while pathfinder does it better than most... they do need more clarification on some of the spells.


Quote:

Beast Shape I:

"When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type."

Basically you have form of a _______ sized creature of the animal subtype, and those are you options.

Wolves by RAW are medium. Therefore RAW gives you a medium sized wolf because it is a medium sized creature of the animal subtype. A whale as an example is NOT a medium sized creature of the animal subtype so it would not qualify.

That means no medium sized eagles, and no small T-Rexes.


To answer your question:
Page 212
"Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature." That is generally considered to rule out turning into a smaller Young-template elephant, for example. If we don't allow you to turn into slightly smaller elephants, turning into an elephant-sized mouse is also presumed to be forbidden.

Silver Crusade

Ignoring the fact that there are Giant Eagles and Smaller T-Rexs...

What about Pandas? Koalas? Mega Fauna is in the bestiary, and is a different thing entirely from Dire Animals.

The issue... where is it in the spell description does it says that a player can't point to an animal from Wikipedia and say "that is an animal that is about the size of horse, I want to be that with Beast shape 2".

The bestiary is NOT an absolute list of all creatures in golerion.


Neither is Wikipedia.


But there are large wolves in the game.

They are called level 7 Animal Companions.

Are you telling me that a Druid can have a LARGE WOLF as a companion but NOT be able to turn into one?

I call bullshizzle on that.

Also what if I wanted to turn into a lion cub? Young template?

What if I was a 12 year old gifted druid? Would everything I turn into have the young template?


Lochmonster wrote:

But there are large wolves in the game.

They are called level 7 Animal Companions.

Are you telling me that a Druid can have a LARGE WOLF as a companion but NOT be able to turn into one?

There were already large wolves: Dire Wolves. There just aren't any Huge wolves.

Lochmonster wrote:
Also what if I wanted to turn into a lion cub? Young template?

Then, by RAW, you're out of luck because you can't polymorph into a templated form.

Lochmonster wrote:
What if I was a 12 year old gifted druid? Would everything I turn into have the young template?

No, you can't polymorph into a templated form.


Well my point was that Druid's animal companions often get a size bump as advancement. People in the thread were saying "you can't turn into a large wolf, it's medium!" But you can stand next to your own large wolf animal companion?!?

Sorry I just don't get that.

Nothing in the animal companion advancement says "apply the large template" it's just given a size and stat boost.


Noble Knight WBC wrote:

Ignoring the fact that there are Giant Eagles and Smaller T-Rexs...

What about Pandas? Koalas? Mega Fauna is in the bestiary, and is a different thing entirely from Dire Animals.

The issue... where is it in the spell description does it says that a player can't point to an animal from Wikipedia and say "that is an animal that is about the size of horse, I want to be that with Beast shape 2".

The bestiary is NOT an absolute list of all creatures in golerion.

By that logic they can use a mythical creature Pathfinder has not statted up yet for other purposes.

Anything not officially created by Pathfinder is not in the game, unless the GM creates it.

Whether it might reasonably exist has nothing to do with whether or not it officially exist.


Lochmonster wrote:

But there are large wolves in the game.

They are called level 7 Animal Companions.

Are you telling me that a Druid can have a LARGE WOLF as a companion but NOT be able to turn into one?

I call bullshizzle on that.

Also what if I wanted to turn into a lion cub? Young template?

What if I was a 12 year old gifted druid? Would everything I turn into have the young template?

The druid's animal companion has special rules because it is an animal companion. If it had no connection to the druid, then it would be a normal wolf.

In other words the animal companion version of an animal and the bestiary versions are different for game balance and mechanical reasons. That is known because the AC's get their own rules for how they work. The same logic applies to familiars. Otherwise people could say they have a "normal" bird with an intelligence of 10, but that won't happen.

As an example the druid companions do not get racial bonuses to certain skills, and the Deinonychus does NOT get the same attacks as the bestiary version, and it was not a mistake.

They makes the AC not a stanard animal to choose from.


This comes up periodically. By RAW wildshape is pretty limited. That's by design I think, since it was so crazy overpowered in 3.5. However, I think the limitation to disallow templates has nerfed it too much and in our group we allow templates. All templates do is allow other shaman druids to be comparable to saurian shaman druids. They don't overpower druids, they just allow power players to pick another option than Saurian.

Silver Crusade

wraithstrike wrote:


The druid's animal companion has special rules because it is an animal companion. If it had no connection to the druid, then it would be a normal wolf.

In other words the animal companion version of an animal and the bestiary versions are different for game balance and mechanical reasons. That is known because the AC's get their own rules for how they work. The same logic applies to familiars. Otherwise people could say they have a "normal" bird with an intelligence of 10, but that won't happen.

As an example the druid companions do not get racial bonuses to certain skills, and the Deinonychus does NOT get the same attacks as the bestiary version, and it was not a mistake.

They makes the AC not a stanard animal to choose from.

Yes, and beast shape has special rules...it's why you use a modifier to your stats instead of using the animal stats.

And why can the power of the druid make medium T-Rex's and large wolves (says nothing of being dire) but not make a huge wolf? And again, it's not a matter of balance, since the difference between a huge wolf and a stegosaurus is the wolf does 2d6 less damage.

What it really boils down to is even though the bestiaries are awesome, and have tons of cool monsters... some of the type lists are a little lacking. You also have a lot of non-standard monsters whose abilities don't transfer through the spell. Shape shifters are extremely limited in what they can do... plant shape is even worse than beast shape in that regard.

This all started when the OP asked if it was allowed. I said the spell doesn't specifically say you can't, the game world says it makes sense in the standard setting, so it's up to the game master.

They game master can do anything he wants, but there is a difference between home brewing rule that changes RAW and acting as judge on a rule that's a bit...fuzzy in the interpretation. There are a lot of people claiming the former, and I'm saying it's the latter. GM call either way, but it's not against the rules.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Wildshape and Polymorph are intentionally limited to not be the 'I win' card they were in 3.5 and part of that design decision when they wrote the rules was 'standard' creatures only. If you take that large wolf and make it huge, [b]it has been advanced[b] OR you applied a template to it which altered the normal creatures size. Both of those are NOT options for the spell/ability as per the RAW quoted above. That makes them 'against the rules' unless the GM house rules it to work (in which case it no longer is a Rules Forum question). There is no 'fuzziness' here, not sure what you referring to.

The game is based on telling us what we can do, with exceptions normally made special rules. You cannot publish a game just listing off all the things you cannot do. Saying the rules 'don't say you can't do it' doesn't make your opinion correct in terms of RAW, it means you cannot find a rule to prove your point.

Liberty's Edge

While it is true that you are sometimes balked by the rules that are setup, there are always loopholes. If you are willing to pay the price in feats, you can get some of the larger animal affects with Powerful Shape and Planar Wild Shape.

Powerful Shape
Source: Ultimate Magic
Your wild shapes are mighty and muscular.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, druid level 8th.
Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).

Planar Wild Shape
Source: Ultimate Combat
Your can infuse your wild shape with planar strength.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, Knowledge (planes) 5 ranks.
Benefit: When you use wild shape to take the form of an animal, you can expend an additional daily use of your wild shape class feature to add the celestial template or fiendish template to your animal form. (Good druids must use the celestial template, while evil druids must use the fiendish template.) If your form has the celestial template and you score a critical threat against an evil creature while using your form's natural weapons, you gain a +2 bonus on the attack roll to confirm the critical hit and vice-versa.

And for any multi-classed druids there is Shaping Focus.

Shaping Focus
Source: Ultimate Magic
Your powers of shapeshifting outstrip your dabbling in the druidic faith.
Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, Knowledge (nature) 5 ranks.
Benefit: If you are a multiclassed druid, your wild shape ability is calculated as though your druid level were four higher, to a maximum level equal to your character level.
Special: This feat has no effect if you are not a multiclassed druid.

And I am sure that there are other loopholes that I haven't found or thought of, and I am sure there are a lot more to come.

I would only have one annoying question for my GM. If my druid is neutral with Planar Wild Shape, can he/she choose the template at the time of wild shaping, has to choose which one when acquiring the feat, or does he/she have to be strictly good or evil?

Silver Crusade

Skylancer4 wrote:
Wildshape and Polymorph are intentionally limited to not be the 'I win' card they were in 3.5 and part of that design decision when they wrote the rules was 'standard' creatures only.

What the designers were thinking is Rules as Intended, we are talking Rules as Written. The spell doesn't specify sources, so it is indeed not RAW.

And seriously, seek help people... a huge wolf is a huge wolf, this obsession with templates is concerning. For the umteenth time, the spell doesn't care what the animal is, only size and special abilities. You can call it a huge wolf, and thanagarian snare beast or a quidirian war hamster... beast shape only cares that it's huge sized and has scent and trip.

The Exchange

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Wild shape, beast shape and all of the polymorph spells do not limit your choices to animals defined in Bestiary I, II, III or VII. They clearly just limit your size.

There not being Huge Wolves in a book published by paizo does not mean your Druid can't turn into them: paizo has given us a great, improved, polymorph system that's an improvement over 3.5. Any Beast Shape 3 form is equivalent in magical power, and the only variables are the caster's base stats.

Paizo will never publish an exhaustive list of every type of animal, at every size level. There is no need to. GMs have tools to make any size creature they want, either with advancement rules, Young, Giant, or other simple templates.

Paizo has given a simple, clear system for turning into whatever flavor of animal you could want. You wanna be a Huge Wolf? +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor. You wanna turn into a Huge Roc? +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural. You wanna turn into a Huge Hephalump? Sorry, that's not an Animal , but if it were: +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor.

There are reasons to disallow templates: so Druids can't turn into celestial dire wolves, fiendish dinosaurs etc, and so that wizards can't with their spells too. Whether you call it a young elephant or a huge dire wolf, it's still clear what abilities and bonuses you get as defined in Beast Shape III

Liberty's Edge Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You have to turn into an animal that has an existing stat block. Whether it is an animal published by paizo, a 3pp or one you and your DM came up. If only to know its natural attack types.

You can not be targeted by Animal Growth while wild shaped, you can however still be targeted by Enlarge Person. Beast shape/polymorph don't increase or decrease your size, they change you into something else which happens to be your size or not, changing the base assumption of your size.

The Exchange

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You can only be targeted with one size effect at a time. If you enlarge personed someone in wild shape, they can either continue to wild shape or accept the enlarge person, not both.

Show me in the rules where it says that you need to select an animal from the bestiary. I dare you.

The one flaw in paizo's polymorph rules is that they didn't explicitly state you can turn into a huge size wolf, using the wolf's abilities/attacks but sized up to huge. Still that's just an assumption that everyone makes to close the logic gap and continue playing the game.

The Exchange

Coridan wrote:


Beast shape/polymorph don't increase or decrease your size, they change you into something else which happens to be your size or not, changing the base assumption of your size.

Beast shape provides a Size bonus to Str/dex/con

Enlarge person and animal growth likewise provide Size typed bonuses, and explicitly wouldn't stack. They are all size effects.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
Any Beast Shape 3 form is equivalent in magical power, and the only variables are the caster's base stats.

This is just flat out untrue. A large wolf gets scent, trip, and a single bite. A large lion gets a bite, two claws, rake, and pounce. The latter is unquestionably more powerful.

Seraphimpunk wrote:
Paizo has given a simple, clear system for turning into whatever flavor of animal you could want. You wanna be a Huge Wolf? +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor. You wanna turn into a Huge Roc? +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural. You wanna turn into a Huge Hephalump? Sorry, that's not an Animal , but if it were: +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor.

Since none of those creatures exist, how do we know what special abilities they get from the list?

Does a Huge Roc get an 80' fly speed like the gargantuan version, or does it get less because it's smaller? Does a Huge wolf have Trip still? Surely a creature that large would no longer use the same tactics as medium wolves. Which special abilities does a Hephalump get? Do I get to choose?

Seraphimpunk wrote:
Whether you call it a young elephant or a huge dire wolf, it's still clear what abilities and bonuses you get as defined in Beast Shape III

I think it is absolutely unclear what abilities you get--if there's no entry for a creature, how do you know its speeds, vision, and special abilities?

In your game, if I was a level 10 druid, could I transform into a creature with a 90' fly speed, a 90' swim speed, a 30' Burrow speed, 30' blindsense, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web?

Why or why not?

If I was a wolf shaman, could I take the form of a poisonous canine?
What about a flying canine?
I think a Huge wolf would be able to trample, so would I get that?
Where do you draw the line?

The Exchange

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like i said, most people reference the bestiary, because its a necessary leap to keep playing the game. to make a huge wolf, i'd size a dire wolf up to huge, keep the speed, attacks, etc. everything else is covered by the spell.

if you want something huge with trample, there's plenty of other base animals to use.

if its a home game, a GM can decide if his game has Nightforest wolves - a wolf breed with higher dex, lower strenght, that use poison to bring down their prey. but if you cast Beast Shape, you'd never get the poison until Beast Shape III anyway.

see, the level of the spell and ability regulate its power. where as in 3.5 forms were min-maxed for their stats and abilities.

huge roc: yeah 80ft speed. notice how an eagle (size small, accessable at beast shape I but limited to 30 ft. fly for 4th level druids) also has an 80 ft. fly speed? you know what attacks and forms it gets. its not hard to extrapolate these from the base creature. as you level up (6th level druid: 60 ft fly on his Eagle form, 8th level: 80 ft. fly on his eagle form) it gets better? so is it really ridiculous that an 8th level druid can turn into a huge eagle or a roc? nope. no more so than other abilities available to 8th level characters.

if it really changes much with size, paizo will publish more animals.


mplindustries wrote:
Seraphimpunk wrote:
Any Beast Shape 3 form is equivalent in magical power, and the only variables are the caster's base stats.

This is just flat out untrue. A large wolf gets scent, trip, and a single bite. A large lion gets a bite, two claws, rake, and pounce. The latter is unquestionably more powerful.

Seraphimpunk wrote:
Paizo has given a simple, clear system for turning into whatever flavor of animal you could want. You wanna be a Huge Wolf? +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor. You wanna turn into a Huge Roc? +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural. You wanna turn into a Huge Hephalump? Sorry, that's not an Animal , but if it were: +6 Str, -4 Dex, +6 natural armor.

Since none of those creatures exist, how do we know what special abilities they get from the list?

Does a Huge Roc get an 80' fly speed like the gargantuan version, or does it get less because it's smaller? Does a Huge wolf have Trip still? Surely a creature that large would no longer use the same tactics as medium wolves. Which special abilities does a Hephalump get? Do I get to choose?

Seraphimpunk wrote:
Whether you call it a young elephant or a huge dire wolf, it's still clear what abilities and bonuses you get as defined in Beast Shape III

I think it is absolutely unclear what abilities you get--if there's no entry for a creature, how do you know its speeds, vision, and special abilities?

In your game, if I was a level 10 druid, could I transform into a creature with a 90' fly speed, a 90' swim speed, a 30' Burrow speed, 30' blindsense, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web?

Why or why not?

If I was a wolf shaman, could I take the form of a poisonous canine?
What about a flying canine?
I think a Huge wolf would be able to trample, so would I get that?
Where do you draw the line?

Look, the spells aren't perfect (shocking right?). Turning into a Vulture is possible at level 4 as a Druid since it is a small sized animal. But it has a fly speed of 50'. You can't get that with Beast Shape I. So if you Wildshape into a Vulture at level 4, you have a fly speed of 30'.

This does not break the universe.

A "Giant Vulture" (Bestiary 3) is a Large animal. It also has a fly speed of 50'.

Reality doesn't bend because a Small animal and a Large animal of the same type have the same speed. So why couldn't a "Huge" sized Roc have a fly speed of 80'? Beast Shape III allows fly speeds up to 90'. A Medium sized Wolf gets trip. Why couldn't a "Small" sized Wolf trip? What makes a "Huge" Wolf above such a tactic? There are bonuses/penalties built into the trip maneuver based on size and STR so it doesn't break anything mechanically.

Picking an animal, then picking a size shouldn't shatter the world. All the rules for stat increases, movement speeds, and special abilities are in the spell.

I don't think saying "I turn into a Large sized T-Rex (or other creature I am familiar with and has stats available)" is the same as saying "I turn into a Large sized Thingamabob that can shoot lasers out of its eyes and flies through space".


I wish one of the devs would just swoop in and just make it an across the board ruling for all of pfs and the like that beast shape can make different sized animals from the ones in the bestiary etc. That way we can just put this topic to rest. It is obviously not game breaking, provides more RP and customization, fills in gaps for quality of life, and again doesn't break the system. Most people already run with the assumption that you can make bigger/smaller animals. Devs just need to make it an official thing so people will stop arguing semantics.


I doubt the Dev's will. (not that I object either way).

Some things are just going to be somewhat vague. Some folks think the rules emphatically say X, some folks think it says Y. There's really no reason for the dev's to come in and tell either group they are wrong.

Work it out for and with your group and play accordingly.

-S

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