Goblin Squad Member
|
Yet if you were to come along and destroy a home I have worked hard to build I would like to be able to exact my price for your taking such destructive liberty with my good. I should be able to defend myself. I should be able to make a malefactor sorry they ever dicked around with me.
<Makes mental note, not to mess with buildings built by Being...>
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...It is just my concern that the players that initially do the building and crafting will, after a while, find that it is not enjoyable and leave the game...
Yet your concern is for something that will not be in the province of things the developers have control over. They are not designing that part of the game they are designing all the tools we are expected to need. What we do with those tools is what will decide whether the builders and crafters are engaged and rewarded or frustrated and driven off. That part of it is on the player community, not the developer. So protesting and pointing is fine as far as it goes, but what would be significant and useful is if you help build our community rightly, as you have been doing.
I urge you to not misdirect our energies toward asking the devs to not do what they are already committed to not do. Apply your effort to making the player community one that serves your intended ends.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
t is just my concern that the players that initially do the building and crafting will, after a while, find that it is not enjoyable and leave the game.
I imagine the crafters won't care so long as they are supplied with materials, have scope to craft a breath-taking range of things and are making a good profit and are central to a settlement's prosperity and manipulating the markets - other players will be only too happy to protect such players in THEIR settlements and not someone else's.
I think that's how it will work.
Concerning buildings, these will scale in settlements in terms of requirements to build and attack. In fact I don't think it would be a common occurance to see settlements even being attacked for a while initially - everyone will be too busy hording as much power with as little resistance as possible?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
t is just my concern that the players that initially do the building and crafting will, after a while, find that it is not enjoyable and leave the game.I imagine the crafters won't care so long as they are supplied with materials, have scope to craft a breath-taking range of things and are making a good profit and are central to a settlement's prosperity and manipulating the markets - other players will be only too happy to protect such players in THEIR settlements and not someone else's.
I think that's how it will work.
Concerning buildings, these will scale in settlements in terms of requirements to build and attack. In fact I don't think it would be a common occurance to see settlements even being attacked for a while initially - everyone will be too busy hording as much power with as little resistance as possible?
I quite agree with Avena. Especially the part about crafters being beloved. =)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Thank you all for you input and responses. let me preface this comment with the fact that I want to like this game and want to be able to enjoy playing it and have it succeed. I have also read the entire blog posted on the Kickstarter and some of the forum messages, but not all there are just too many and I do not have that much free time. I am not trying to put down the game and I REALLY want someone to honestly convince me that my impressions are incorrect.
It appears that most of the posts in this thread are from people who would like to play bandits, assassins, bounty hunters, etc. as that is what most have indicated in the posts. I on the other hand would like to craft, gather and build. My issue is, given the information available, why would I play this game. I do not see the fun in doing the thing that I want to do. Believe me this is an honest question and I would like someone to tell me where the fun is in building the actual town and craft items for other player, because frankly I do not see it. Everything seems to be slanted against the player who wants to build and create and towards the ones who want to steal and destroy. Why should I as a player organize camps, hire guards, spend time gathering materials only to have all the stuff I gathered taken from me with my character having little or no recourse. In a prior post someone said that they did not what their character incarcerated, because they are paying a fee to play the game. Well the people gathering the goods are paying a fee also, why should their hard work be stolen from them. I do not believe, at least for me, that the bounty system and reputation system (especially since the reputation system encourages banditry) are good enough. According to the blogs gathering materials will be a very difficult organizational and time consuming process. High risk, high reward. Well where is the risk to the bandits.
Again, bear in mind that I like the idea of a sandbox MMO and want to like and enjoy this game, but given the...
Yeah, I don't like it when people say 'don't play' even when I agree with them otherwise. But maybe you can understand the frustration with posters who constantly campaign for a Pathfinder themed wax museum without open world pvp? The game will not have enough developer-produced content to support a full MMO experience. We are the content. Victor, have you checked out the proposed Chartered Companies on Nihimon's list? Most of them support a crafter/world building or defender/adventurer playstyle. The reason you see so many pvpers posting is that they're worried that griefing concerns will water down player vs. player conflict, which is supposed to be the focus.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The reason you see so many pvpers posting is that they're worried that griefing concerns will water down player vs. player conflict, which is supposed to be the focus.
That is the developers' focus, I believe, because it is the most complicated and difficult of the tools we will bring to bear, requiring the greater share of their focus and concern. Further, it is what they project with churn game economics and keep it vital.
But while the players must similarly have an eye on PvP/combat we can and probably should prefer to consider other elements our primary focus and concern. This is not to minimize our input and ideas regarding conflict, but the mechanical features the devs are focused on are the how, the what, and the where, while the players will create primarily the 'why' and the 'who'.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Question 1: If a group of bandits extort money from caravans entering a city, but not attack them, then they can, due to their reputation, enter the city and train there.Question 2: Multiple groups of bandits set up camp around a city extorting money from caravans entering the town, but do not attack them, and a group of paladins goes out and attacks them to drive them off, then the paladins would not be allowed in town (due to low reputation for killing the bandits and the reputation loss would be large due to the high reputation of the bandits), but the bandits would be since they would have high reputation for extorting money from the caravans.
Question 3: Can a caravan be attacked by more than one group of bandits while traveling from the gathering point to their city? Rare resources might be far away and it is possible that more than one ambush point may be setup by different bandit groups along the route.
1: If the settlement didn't bother prohibiting outlaws or chaotic people from training, then yes.
2: If the paladins didn't bother to flag themselves appropriately to engage outlaws, then they would suffer consequences. If they were Enforcer flagged, then they can engage outlaw-flagged characters for a rep boost and no penalty (for example, they should get the 'involved' flag rather than the 'attacker' flag for charging in violently)
3: Certainly. One possible outcome would be bandit groups competing with each other, another would be bandits cooperating with each other. As more bandits accumulate, fewer caravans pass through (due to lower returns for the caravans), resulting in fewer bandits waiting, leading either to an economic equilibrium or cyclical behavior.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If caravans are getting targetted by multiple bandit groups on each trip, leading to a reduction in caravanning, and a reduction in the income for the bandits, then I expect the overpopulation of rival bandits will get dealt with by the bandits themselves.
This is essentially true. However, I believe that there may be a general overestimation of the number of bandits to merchants there will be. Banditry will not be an easy life, and although it may be the focus of a select few charter companies, it won't be the only activity we will be doing.
We Re still waiting to learn about the war mechanics of the game. That may open up a whole new element if banditry not discussed until now.... Privateering, or bandits with the license to steal.
I'm going to just toss some things out. If they have already been mentioned, sorry, I just skimmed the other posts in this thread.
I plan on being a crafter as well as another role.
In no other game can you start a town and run that town which will become a town on the game map, nor can you choose what buildings you want in your town, and hopefully where it will be located.
Few games allow you to set up an actual vendor and sell your wares.
Most games are gear grubbing theme parks, where your best stuff requires you to camp instances for a chance to roll on one piece of gear. All of PFOs high level gear is player made so crafters will be a lot more important in PFO, they will be welcomed and treated very well.
I really can't describe the sense of accomplishment that comes with reaching a high skill level with a crafter in a game like PFO. Anybody can skill up a crafter in theme parks like Wow or SWTor, you just need a bit of coin. Those crafters, for the most part, couldn't reach high skill level in PFO. They possess neither the will nor the dedication, so it means a lot more in a game like PFO.
That's just a few things that popped into my head.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Valandur,
I'm almost certain you are mistaken with your assumption. There will be plenty of crafters, all grinding to maximum level as quickly as they can, as there always are in every MMO.
You will have weeks of advanced, unmolested gathering and crafting, before even the first few PVP systems are even put into place. remember they have said, EE will begin bare bones.... probably the very basics, which most likley won't even include organized pvp.
Crowd Forging, does not just mean having input now. It means that we will be building the world that the general admission crowd will walk into on the first day of launch.
It might actually be quite some time into EE, before GW even introduces PVP. During which time, I would just concentrate on building the foundation of my company and its banditry skills and resources, in preparation for the general launch date. It would be interesting to see what kind of banditry we can have with nearly 18 months of preparation!
A, I misformed the point I was trying to make, imagine that! I intended to suggest that due to its sandboxy, less hand holding nature, progression in PFO will bring a greater sense of accomplishment then in other games. I actually didn't mean to suggest that we won't have plenty of crafters though. I do think that a goodly number won't be able to play PFO, just because they have gotten used to the ease and simplicity of many MMOs, so they won't have the patience, or won't be able to handle getting killed if they do dumb things.
We know that joining a good settlement will enable most crafters to avoid PvP for the most part, but it's hard to convince some of that until they have really gotten into the info that's here on the forums. I'm not suggesting that anyone can avoid PvP totally, but by gathering in groups, or even PvE ing in groups will cut down on your chances by a good percentage.
Regarding bandits getting + rep for successful SADs - Would the opposite happen (ie bandits get - rep) if the SAD or attack failed? Would the merchant get + rep if he successfully defended his caravan? I would like to think the inverse would hold true, but cannot cite anything.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Regarding bandits getting + rep for successful SADs - Would the opposite happen (ie bandits get - rep) if the SAD or attack failed? Would the merchant get + rep if he successfully defended his caravan? I would like to think the inverse would hold true, but cannot cite anything.
As it stands, there's been nothing to suggest that is the case.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Regarding bandits getting + rep for successful SADs - Would the opposite happen (ie bandits get - rep) if the SAD or attack failed? Would the merchant get + rep if he successfully defended his caravan? I would like to think the inverse would hold true, but cannot cite anything.As it stands, there's been nothing to suggest that is the case.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "the reverse", but this may be relevant:
If the victim and Outlaw completed a stand-and-deliver trade, the Outlaw loses double reputation for killing the target within 20 minutes. (If they pay, you should let them go.)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yea. Its as Nihimon says. I beleive the intentions of the devs are to allow SAD in conjunction with Outlaw flag. Which means if SAD is accepted Bandit gets rep, if SAD is rejected then a fight can begin w/o rep loss but no gain in it. The only scenario that would net negative rep would be dishonoring SAD. And of course a bandit not using SAD and just out and out kills and loots is going to get neg rep if the death was unwarranted. Exceptions would be war or I suppose maybe contracts.......?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some things to understand:
Reputation is ONE mechanical measure by which settlements and NPC's can adjucate how they feel about PC's. The MOST important aspect there, functionaly, is the type of NPC's and therefore facilities they can attract to thier own settlements. Thus is the "bandits" setup a "bandit settlement" and have a high reputation... Joe (NPC) Blacksmith isn't going to be too freaked out about working there, because he reckognizes the bandits aren't rabid killers but follow some sort of set rules of engagement and thus he's probably ok working for them in thier settlement. Which allows thier settlement to function on a basic level. Note he doesn't feel as ok about it as if they were a LG settlement with a high reputation...which is probably reflected in the cost of maintaining those settlements...but he's still willing to work there.
Now player settlements (and players themselves), I expect are going to have much more granualar controls of who they are willing to let into a settlement...and how they react to certain groups. So even if the "bandits" have a "high reputation" it doesn't mean they are going to get access to a "LG" player controled settlement...because the players who control that settlement can say...in addition to X reputation, don't let in any players who are of X alignment....or they can explicitly tell the settlement guards, regardless of any other factors don't let in any members of "Mike's Bandit Company" because WE think they are scumbags and we are hostile to them, so they are not welcome here.
Finaly, understand that the function of the PvP Flags (Outlaw, Assassin, Champion, Enforcer) is to allow the player greater opportunity to engage non-flagged targets in PvP under appropriate conditions at the price of being vulnerable to being ENGAGED in PvP themselves. So don't think that the guys flagging themselves as OUTLAW don't have a downside involved with that. It means that they are self-flagging themselves as open to PvP....which allows pretty much anyone to initiate PvP with them without suffering the normal Alignment/Reputation hits of such.....so in your example if the bandits are actualy flagged as Outlaw...they can be attacked by the Paladins without the Paladins worrying about alignment/rep hits (since you don't gain an attacker flag for engaging someone who is PvP flagged...you gain an "involved with flag"....furthermore of the Pali's PvP Flagged themselves as Enforcers...they'd actualy get bonuses for engaging the Outlaws.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Whoops, better read the full merged thread before I repeat someone.
Edit: On second thought, I'll risk it.
The potential crafters and muleskinners should keep in mind that they won't need to brave the bandit-haunted wilderness alone. Between bandits on the road and monsters at the gathering site, guard work should be pretty attractive to aspiring non-bandit characters with combat-related milestones to achieve. Sure, they may want to be paid, but if paying a few guards allows the crafter to make a profit on the whole trip, it will be worthwhile.