You can't exactly prepare anything to stop your book from being stolen at level 1, apparently before play even starts. Which is the original scenario.
How is that the original scenario? Okay sorry I saw now the later clarification on that.
Yeah. That's bad DM'ing, unless she'll find a new spellbook reaaally quick. And regardless, I think it's bad to do a "you start broke" campaign beginning without discussing it with the players beforehand.
It's come out in a few posts.
Apparently before game start they were captured by slavers (he was not informed this would be the case) and the book was taken along with everything else. Their Paladin player then threw the person who was holding the book overboard. So now he's got his school abilities and thassaboutit.
Once you get to about level 4 I say everything's fair game, but below that it's infeasible to protect your spellbook beyond "I keep it on me at all times".
Once you get to about level 4 I say everything's fair game, but below that it's infeasible to protect your spellbook beyond "I keep it on me at all times".
We usually have it as everythings fine to target as long as it's done sensible, regardless of level. Most low-level spellbook (and other vital gear) losses are actually from the tactic of "i keep it on me at all times". Between catching fire, dips in water (paper spellbooks only), being captured and stripped and general mishap that happens at those levels, it's not uncommon to lose a spellbook if it's kept on one's person.
Generally they're much safer locked/hidden away; at those levels they don't have an archenemy with vast knowledge of them, so it's rare that someone would steal it if it's protected decently. Then again, we also have a bit easier access to traps and safety measures in our games (we feel especially the GP cost is far too high by RAW).
Most wizards we have generally keep a master spellbook in a safe or similar, and keep a smaller travelling spellbook with their most used spells so they don't have to pay so much for replacing it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is there another class as neutered as a wizard that loses 1 item?
Monk that gets all his arms and legs chopped off.
What?
Once you get to about level 4 I say everything's fair game, but below that it's infeasible to protect your spellbook beyond "I keep it on me at all times".We usually have it as everythings fine to target as long as it's done sensible, regardless of level. Most low-level spellbook (and other vital gear) losses are actually from the tactic of "i keep it on me at all times". Between catching fire, dips in water (paper spellbooks only), being captured and stripped and general mishap that happens at those levels, it's not uncommon to lose a spellbook if it's kept on one's person.
Generally they're much safer locked/hidden away; at those levels they don't have an archenemy with vast knowledge of them, so it's rare that someone would steal it if it's protected decently. Then again, we also have a bit easier access to traps and safety measures in our games (we feel especially the GP cost is far too high by RAW).
Most wizards we have generally keep a master spellbook in a safe or similar, and keep a smaller travelling spellbook with their most used spells so they don't have to pay so much for replacing it.
Nah, and here's why IMO.
If it's "in a chest somewhere", it's way too easy for dudebroguy to say "You come back and your chest's lock has been picked and your spellbook is gone".
Even if he does it legitimately (rolling Perception to find traps, rolling Disable Device to get rid of it and unlock the chest), it's still a lot easier for that to happen than for one to be destroyed or someone to steal it from you while it's in your possession.
And all that assumes you'd be able to get back to your "home base" or wherever the chest is. Most games I've played in involve a lot of travel. Even with a cart, you're gonna have to ditch it at some point.
And like I said, levels 4 and below. You can't afford the traveling spellbook you keep on you while you hide the other in a safe or summat.
If it's "in a chest somewhere", it's way too easy for dudebroguy to say "You come back and your chest's lock has been picked and your spellbook is gone".
That would be an issue if the DM is a jackass and metagames. If a bank couldn't keep stuff decently safe, they'd be out of business in no time, and if someone manages to break into the bank, the spellbook wouldn't be that interesting to steal compared to other things. As I said, "as long as it's done sensible" it's okay, that is, if the wizard leaves his spellbook on the inn table and leaves there's a large risk it'll be gone, if she leaves it in the backpack tied to the horse in the forest clearing it'll still be there unless there are bandits about (and if they are the chance they'll see the horse is still pretty slim) and if she leaves it in the bank safe or even with the innkeeper it'll be pretty much completely safe unless she has powerful personal enemies that keep tabs on her actions.
So it's not so much a matter of doing it _by the rules_ as it's a matter of _doing it in a way that makes sense_. Basically, if you treat it as you would your real-life laptop, it'll be about as safe as your real-life laptop.
And all that assumes you'd be able to get back to your "home base" or wherever the chest is. Most games I've played in involve a lot of travel. Even with a cart, you're gonna have to ditch it at some point.And like I said, levels 4 and below. You can't afford the traveling spellbook you keep on you while you hide the other in a safe or summat.
Agreed that travel can sometimes be a problem - it's something that wizards should plan for. Being unprepared is always a weakness of the wizard, as should be.
And at level 4 and below, sure you can. We have a 3rd level (about halfway to fourth) conjurer in our current game that keeps one, here's the list:
Master Spellbook
0th - All
1st - Alarm, Ant Haul, Grease, Shield, Infernal Healing, Mount, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Unseen Servant, Charm Person, Hydraulic Push, Color Spray, Silent Image, Enlarge Person, Expeditious Retreat
2nd - Create Pit, Glitterdust, Gust of Wind, Invisibility
Handbook
0th - Dancing Lights, Drench, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation
1st - Alarm, Grease, Mage Armor, Hydraulic Push, Color Spray, Enlarge Person
2nd - Create Pit, Glitterdust, Gust of Wind
A quick calc on the price of these (backtracking now, I might be off by a few GP) the master spellbook cost 210 gp, and the handbook cost an extra 205 gp. At this point they have in the ballpark of 4000 gp wealth, so those 205 gp isn't a huge factor. Since most of our wizard characters get them, and those are often played by experienced players, I assume the players find it working better than not getting those.
|
Well if he's that kind of GM, I'd exercise my player fiat and hit the road.
If he's doing to be a jerk, then yes, I agree the player should look at other options for gaming. If he's doing it temporarily to advancing the adventure plot and the player walks, the player is jerk. And probably an ungrateful one at that, as the GM probably built the adventure featuring the character dealing with this adversity. The player is probably walking away from a golden role playing opportunity and a mechanical challenge.
Honestly, if a player at the table I run did that, I'd be pretty upset after wasting time creating the adventure, and probably not want them back at my table. I spend a lot of time creating and preparing for adventures, and someone who walks at the slightest sign of difficulty without discussing their concerns with me first is a pretty poor person, and someone I don't care to game with again.
Sorry if some of you think of this as harsh, but I've seen way too much "player picks up his toys and goes home as soon as he doesn't get his way" responses in threads as of late. We are all adults (or young adults), and should have the maturity to deal with a little adversity. If you don't like the situation, discuss it with the GM privately after the session. If they are even a mediocore GM, they will listen to the player's concerns and adjust their plot accordingly.
And apologies to North Star - this rant isn't directed at you. Your comment just spurred me to get something off of my chest that's been bothering me. I've had to deal with this situation before, and it apparently bothers me still.
<<Gets off soapbox>>
I have never walked out on a DM, in every edition I have played 2e, 3.5, pathfinder, even vampire the mascurade I have never rage-quit, I have never personally known anyone else to do so, I don't know of enough DnD groups in chattanooga TN to afford that luxery even if it was in my nature to do so
even with my first DM, I played wizards mostly and none of them survived more than three sessions!|
|
Is there another class as neutered as a wizard that loses 1 item?Monk that gets all his arms and legs chopped off.
What?
a monk (assuming he survived) can still flurry with his head, toung, shoulder, etc etc etc,
plus that's four itemsplus there are prostetics, you could get replacement arms and legs better than your old ones.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is there another class as neutered as a wizard that loses 1 item?Monk that gets all his arms and legs chopped off.
What?
a monk (assuming he survived) can still flurry with his head, toung, shoulder, etc etc etc,
plus that's four items
plus there are prostetics, you could get replacement arms and legs better than your old ones.
1.) Not by RAW.
"A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet."
2.) Then you're not using your Unarmed Strike, it's like a weapon.
I usually hope my DM doesn't plan to steal my class features. I don't think people deserve it for not preparing for it. DM fiat will bypass all of your defences and plans anyway if the DM really wants to bug you.The DM doesn't steal your class feature, an NPC disables your access to a class feature. You know what else disables that access? Death. So you usually hope your DM won't have NPC's or monsters kill your character off if you run around butt naked and don't prepare for the enemy? That's fine, but it's not the standard assumption of the game.
It's interesting how when one of the wizard's weaknesses gets targeted by the enemy it's "DM fiat" but when the fighter gets drowned in Grease and oil or someone puts a spear through the rogue it's seen as standard part of gameplay.
The DM did not take your spellbook the npc did, and the fighter being downed by grease is just as bad? Erm... We might be of a different opinion here.
|
This post talks a bit about Skull and Shackles but I don't think it has any real spoilers since it is what starts off the adventure rather than something further on.
Just to toss this out there, in the Skull and Shackles AP the players start out in a scenario not too far from this. The first scenes of the campaign is a result of them being press ganged onto a pirate ship and left with their gear claimed by the captain and stored with the quartermaster.
However, there is a strong suggestion for the DM to make sure that the players are aware of this and to work around it in little ways. For instance, if the player would have a familiar or animal companion, having it come to join them while they are on the boat or be locked in the stores or the like. And things like spell books or something small and important to a class can be smuggled on board.
Generally, a plot point like this can be a lot of fun but probably should be discussed with the players to make sure that everyone is on the same page and ok with that plot, but you may also just be without your spellbook for a couple game days until you are able to regain it somehow.
There can be good opportunity to get in good with your captors to try and have some of your stuff returned. Using one of those precious spells and helping accomplish some work or helping one of the ship mates and making it clear that if you had your book back you could be a valued asset can always do something.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ridiculous utility, versatility and overall power should indeed have a significant drawback. Even if that only drawback is "my DM is a dick and specifically targets my spellbook with Sunder/by theives/etc."
My GM is very much not a dick, and yet my wizard is turning her spellbook into a sentient magical trap that will continually fry anyone who isn't supposed to be messing with it. If a thief tries to pick her spellbook out of her possessions, despite it being kept on a metal cord across her chest (not exactly an easy Slight of Hand), the book will freak out with an alarm and shock the snot out of the offender with a CL 5 shocking grasp each round it's being mishandled.
EDIT: But you should see the plans for her arcane bond.
Well if he's that kind of GM, I'd exercise my player fiat and hit the road.
If he's doing to be a jerk, then yes, I agree the player should look at other options for gaming. If he's doing it temporarily to advancing the adventure plot and the player walks, the player is jerk. And probably an ungrateful one at that, as the GM probably built the adventure featuring the character dealing with this adversity. The player is probably walking away from a golden role playing opportunity and a mechanical challenge.
Honestly, if a player at the table I run did that, I'd be pretty upset after wasting time creating the adventure, and probably not want them back at my table. I spend a lot of time creating and preparing for adventures, and someone who walks at the slightest sign of difficulty without discussing their concerns with me first is a pretty poor person, and someone I don't care to game with again.
Sorry if some of you think of this as harsh, but I've seen way too much "player picks up his toys and goes home as soon as he doesn't get his way" responses in threads as of late. We are all adults (or young adults), and should have the maturity to deal with a little adversity. If you don't like the situation, discuss it with the GM privately after the session. If they are even a mediocore GM, they will listen to the player's concerns and adjust their plot accordingly.
And apologies to North Star - this rant isn't directed at you. Your comment just spurred me to get something off of my chest that's been bothering me. I've had to deal with this situation before, and it apparently bothers me still.
<<Gets off soapbox>>
No worries, I get what you're saying. I was commenting more specifically on the "result is the same no matter what you do as a player" Railroading GM fiat issue raised by MrSin.
well, the boat we were on was scheduled to sink... and this week in theory i had a chance to get stuff back, but... i am trying not to cast my remaining first level spells (had to cast a colour spray to stop a swarm...) so i can at least prepare something each day, until i find something to write the spells in memory down.
|
No worries, I get what you're saying. I was commenting more specifically on the "result is the same no matter what you do as a player" Railroading GM fiat issue raised by MrSin.
Thanks for understanding, got a bit rant-y there.
And I see what you mean by the GM Fiat ignoring a player's precautions being a bit of a problem. A wizard that blows their Will save and gets feebleminded is one thing, but wizard with a spectacular Will save who doesn't even get to roll the dice because the GM said so is more the issue.
Railroading can be a useful plot tool for a GM when used properly with the player's understanding, and a proper reward for playing along. I recall one game I played in where the party was shipwrecked. The GM surgically removed items from our character sheets, many of which would be considered key class features (like the wizard's spellbook). After creating makeshift weaponry, we proceeded inland, fighting off low level headhunters, with the poor wizard rationing out his memorized spells - until we made it to the hidden temple we were hunting. We were able to hastily gear up with found treasures (better than our previous gear) and fight off the temple guardian. And the spellbookless wizard? He ended up with a library of spellbooks from the temple and a horde of wands and scrolls. Which came in VERY handy getting off the island...
yea... something like that, shoulda been said at the get go. i've played nerfed char, so i dont mind too much, assuming eventually i'll get access to paper, so i can write my memorized spells down so i can use them more than once.
Just curious… who says you have to use a book or paper? Why can’t you grab some wood, a dagger, and carefully etch your “spell book” using makeshift components? Granted the cost would still have to be the same. Perhaps you would need to treat the wood or some such but for 40 gold worth of components is there any reason why you couldn’t create a makeshift book in the interim?
I have always been under the impression there would be nothing wrong with this, spell books are simply used because they are more convenient but with only 4 spells using 4 good quality boards cut to the right size should work fine. Certainly I allow my players to do so if they need or desire to. Or would that be a house rule? (And if it is maybe you should still ask your GM about it they might agree)
i could write it in monkey blood i guess. but we have no way to collect any wood, short of deadfall.
That and it seems we managed to get nabbed again, currently one pair has our equipment, apparently, and got nabbed in the jungle. one pair followed a trail to this 'being' and the trio i'm with fought off a pair of monkey swarms and and almost some Yuan-ti. we have a coconut, a couple darts that we were shot with in the last fight, and some loin cloths we were using for a sail before our makeshift raft broke.
|
|
Actually, Magi get Knowledge pool, so they are *slightly* more resistant to spellbook shenanigans than wizards. I actually sort of like the 'stripped to nothing' fight idea, if its temporary. Alchemists still get Throw Anything, there is Spell Mastery ("I have 4 spells. I have 3 Metamagic feats and about a dozen spell slots. You do the math."), Sorcerors and other prepared casters have all their dreams and revenge fantasies fulfilled...
Off-topic, but reading the feat, only wizards can take Spell Mastery. This hasn't been extended to all prepared casters?
i think only other prep caster would apply would be the magus. clerics have access to their full list always, alchemists don't have 'spells'. and i have 1 feat... Tenebrous Spell. wish i hadn't had to burn my colour spray... I gonna miss it.
i could write it in monkey blood i guess. but we have no way to collect any wood, short of deadfall. That and it seems we managed to get nabbed again.
Well it doesn't have to be wood either, but the idea is there, wood was just something that is tends to be readily available. I'm curious where are you now that you can't find any wood? A daggers all you'd need to "collect" some provided their is a tree in the area.
Of course the blood skin and bone of your enemies would work too but that seems a bit morbid... but hey, if it's all you got >:)
But then if you just got caught again you may have to wait a bit but I'd keep it mind.
sorry, forgot about the witch... and @Revel. the only "weapon" we have is a coconut that has some blowdarts stuck into it. lots of wrecked wood, I guess, but little in the way of writing utensils.
The DM did not take your spellbook the npc did, and the fighter being downed by grease is just as bad? Erm... We might be of a different opinion here.
Yes, the wizard can't prepare spells without it's spellbook and the fighter can't shoot while on the ground and thus can't use it's weapon training (bows). tripping an archer is stealing it's class features!
|
|
The DM did not take your spellbook the npc did, and the fighter being downed by grease is just as bad? Erm... We might be of a different opinion here.Yes, the wizard can't prepare spells without it's spellbook and the fighter can't shoot while on the ground and thus can't use it's weapon training (bows). tripping an archer is stealing it's class features!
The difference of course being a replacement bow is less expensive, and you could argue the same thing about anti magic fields.
The DM did not take your spellbook the npc did, and the fighter being downed by grease is just as bad? Erm... We might be of a different opinion here.Yes, the wizard can't prepare spells without it's spellbook and the fighter can't shoot while on the ground and thus can't use it's weapon training (bows). tripping an archer is stealing it's class features!
Apples to Oranges, I think thats what people call this.
My point was the GM was absolutely the one taking the spellbook, and that losing a spell book is far worse, and much more expensive than being tripped by a grease. Its also easier to recover from the grease than the loss of a spellbook.
|
As to the point on clerics and holy symbols, I've always made it a point to have a very nice symbol that my cleric uses, and at least 2 cheap wooden backups in case the nice symbol gets smashed/sundered/stolen/etc.
I also made a cleric once that had his god's symbol tattooed on the palm of his hand, but that ended badly when the DM had us go into the lands held by clergy of the opposite alignment on a diplomatic mission.
The difference of course being a replacement bow is less expensive, and you could argue the same thing about anti magic fields.The DM did not take your spellbook the npc did, and the fighter being downed by grease is just as bad? Erm... We might be of a different opinion here.Yes, the wizard can't prepare spells without it's spellbook and the fighter can't shoot while on the ground and thus can't use it's weapon training (bows). tripping an archer is stealing it's class features!
The grease was just an example of exploiting a weakness. And I agree, if the wizard gets it's spellbook stolen as often as someone uses grease/oil/other acrobatics-forcing stuff on low-level armored people, it's being a dick.
But, regardless, that was a side note. NPCs regularly try to KILL the PC's, and death is quite hard to come back from at lower levels and is always quite expensive. I made this post:
I usually hope my DM doesn't plan to steal my class features. I don't think people deserve it for not preparing for it. DM fiat will bypass all of your defences and plans anyway if the DM really wants to bug you.The DM doesn't steal your class feature, an NPC disables your access to a class feature. You know what else disables that access? Death. So you usually hope your DM won't have NPC's or monsters kill your character off if you run around butt naked and don't prepare for the enemy? That's fine, but it's not the standard assumption of the game.
It's interesting how when one of the wizard's weaknesses gets targeted by the enemy it's "DM fiat" but when the fighter gets drowned in Grease and oil or someone puts a spear through the rogue it's seen as standard part of gameplay.
and for some reason all the focus got on the single notion of using grease against a fighter. What about the rogue getting a spear through it? While a DM shouldn't plan on killing the PC's nor negating their powers (such as greasing/stealing), the DM SHOULD plan on having the NPC's trying to do that on them. Why is it seen as bad DMing or even strange for a NPC to try and succeed at stealing a spellbook but as the standard assumption that NPC's will try and sometimes succeed at killing the rogue?
(As a general question, because the attitude is common regardless of actual circumstances - in the OP's case the DM seems dickish in general, not talking stuff like that through with the players beforehand).
The DM did not take your spellbook the npc did, and the fighter being downed by grease is just as bad? Erm... We might be of a different opinion here.Yes, the wizard can't prepare spells without it's spellbook and the fighter can't shoot while on the ground and thus can't use it's weapon training (bows). tripping an archer is stealing it's class features!
The difference being the Fighter can spend a move action to get up on his turn.
The Wizard getting his spellbook back is not as easy.
There's several orders of magnitude between temporarily inconvenienced in combat (taking damage, being tripped/grappled/whatever) and being effectively neutered until the DM sees fit to give you the opportunity to get the book back or buy a new one.
The difference being the Fighter can spend a move action to get up on his turn.The Wizard getting his spellbook back is not as easy.
There's several orders of magnitude between temporarily inconvenienced in combat (taking damage, being tripped/grappled/whatever) and being effectively neutered until the DM sees fit to give you the opportunity to get the book back or buy a new one.
As said, that was a simple example of targeting a weakness - but what about NPC's trying (and sometimes succeeding) at killing PC's?
As said, that was a simple example of targeting a weakness - but what about NPC's trying (and sometimes succeeding) at killing PC's?
The difference being the Fighter can spend a move action to get up on his turn.The Wizard getting his spellbook back is not as easy.
There's several orders of magnitude between temporarily inconvenienced in combat (taking damage, being tripped/grappled/whatever) and being effectively neutered until the DM sees fit to give you the opportunity to get the book back or buy a new one.
Thats to be expected. Most games have combat at some point, DnD is not the best game if you want mostly social situations. That said, its not targetting a weakness to trip the fighter or to stab them. Using a move action to get up is much less stressful than getting a spellbook back, and in the latter case it looks like the GM went out of his way to hurt the player instead of the character.
As said, that was a simple example of targeting a weakness - but what about NPC's trying (and sometimes succeeding) at killing PC's?
The difference being the Fighter can spend a move action to get up on his turn.The Wizard getting his spellbook back is not as easy.
There's several orders of magnitude between temporarily inconvenienced in combat (taking damage, being tripped/grappled/whatever) and being effectively neutered until the DM sees fit to give you the opportunity to get the book back or buy a new one.
You're obviously not seeing the difference here.
Let's look at the simplest difference between combat and "lol I jacked your s+*&, yo": It takes multiple rounds to complete.
During that time, a lot of factors come into play. Initiative, HP, AC, CMB/CMD, weapon damage, spells, WHATEVER. You've got options, and no one factor is going to decide the entire battle, it's going to be a combination of multiples.
The only way that "your book is stolen, get a new one/track down teh guy that took it" is similar to combat is if combat were "the enemy jumps out and kills your character, get a new one/track down someone with Raise Dead".
Is there another class as neutered as a wizard that loses 1 item?Monk that gets all his arms and legs chopped off.
What?
Anyone who gets their head cut off would suffer from a similar issue.
|
|
Anyone who gets their head cut off would suffer from a similar issue.Is there another class as neutered as a wizard that loses 1 item?Monk that gets all his arms and legs chopped off.
What?
I wonder if the Black Knight in The Holy Grail would have had more luck if he was packing a dozen levels of monk.
heh. so another question related... what class to take a level in at second level? (current makeup: pally, rouge, fighter, ranger, sorc, cleric)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Guilty of skipping some of this but had to add. Spell component pouches and holy symbols are so cheap, no spell caster should be without at least three of them. Doubt my DM will let this work in the future but when guards dis nit let my cleric ans another cleric visit someone with our holy symbols for fear of casting, we ahouwed him the part of our character sheets that said holy symbol x3 right then and there so he saw it was prewritten , not five minutes later, and we each took the openly displayed one off, took another out of a belt pouch and handed the 2 of them over and when we needed it, we took out our third with a move action that provokes, but after a 5 foot step into safe squares. Maybe dumb guards will slip up agin or maybe not. Always carry at least three, if not more. Nor all of them should.be easily seen on the outside.
IejirIsk: Do you expect to keep being low-wealthed/underspelled? In that case, I'd suggest taking a single level of ranger (or maybe rogue). With your high intelligence, you'll get a huge load of skillpoints and a lot of class skills - keep your knowledges maxed and put a point or two in disable device and other Int skills.
Also get armor ASAP if you're not having much use of spells.
in a loin cloth on a beach filled with monkey corpses. have a rogue and ranger already. atm (have until monday) thinking about going with a shadow summoner. fits the char, gives me some survivability, and some casting / healings
Unavoidable boolean weakness should be treated as badly conceived fluff and never targeted.
Off hand the wizard, magus, and witch are the only classes with such a weakness that isn't related to a code of conduct.
Depriving these classes of their spellbooks is as much a jerk move as placing the paladin in a situation where his only choice is which term of his code he falls for violating.
Classes should never be designed with weaknesses like this and Paizo should feel bad about the witch. (The wizard/magus spellbooks are TSR legacy, though I hope any PF 2 corrects the issue.)
A cleric without their Holy Symbol is stripped of many of their powers, as are most spell casters that lose their spell component pouch. While these maybe easier to replace than a spell book or familiar, they have a very similar effect.
I do so much love the whine of; My character class has a limitation and the GM better not exploit it.
i dont mind the exploitation. it would be different if i had a way to protect said crux. I am just trying to figure out a way that i can still do something. punching seems rather disastrous for a char with low HD and nearly no dex and no armour.
Unavoidable boolean weakness should be treated as badly conceived fluff and never targeted.
Off hand the wizard, magus, and witch are the only classes with such a weakness that isn't related to a code of conduct.
Depriving these classes of their spellbooks is as much a jerk move as placing the paladin in a situation where his only choice is which term of his code he falls for violating.
Classes should never be designed with weaknesses like this and Paizo should feel bad about the witch. (The wizard/magus spellbooks are TSR legacy, though I hope any PF 2 corrects the issue.)
While I agree that that kind of boolean weaknesses are bad design, whether to target them or not I think depends a lot on how the players have their character act and what kind of game you want to play.
Putting them in a situation where they HAVE to suffer their weakness (such as in the OP's example) is similar to the "always fall" paladin situation, but targeting a witch's familiar in combat when she brought it into combat might very well be fair game, depending on how you usually play with the group. And of course it depends on how you do it.
And it also depends on if you play with optimizers and/or munchkins or not. I think it's bad if a munchkin player can think "well he's a douche if he exploits my weakness so I can just pump up my offense to the max and not think about spending spell slots/gold on shoring up my weakness" (for example buffing a familiar before it is sent into combat).
Generally, as long as neither the DM or the players consciously try to exploit the rules or their power, I don't think it's so much the fault of bad DM's/entitled players as much as of bad game design. It's inherent in D&D in general, unfortunately, and it would've not been that easy for them to remove the wizard's weakness without making it (even more) overpowered when used by munchkins.
That said, I'm working on a remake of the wizard that moves a bit away from this through having less focus on the spells and instead having more powerful school abilities, more similar to the witch, so that even if you lose the spellbook you don't lose ALL your abilities. I'll publish it on the boards later if anyone's interested.
IejirIsk: Have you considered taking a level of Magus? You'd get a new spellbook for free, their casting is based on the same stat, and you'd get some proficiencies, better saves etc.
EDIT: Or Sage sorcerer for that matter, if the DM won't give you access to a magus spellbook. Same casting stat, you can pick a few spells that are useful now and can still be used later like hydraulic push or vanish.
I've had plenty of characters that have had to go into combat sans armor because the fight started while they were sleeping or otherwise without their armor.
For classes that can "fall," you can expect to be put in situations where making the wrong choice will make you fall. Not lose-lose situations, but ones where there are right and wrong choices.
hmm... havent thought, though the free spellbook seems rather broked (considering haven't seen anything more civilized than monkey swarms). If I had been a more militant wizard, I might have gone that route.
Is currently what I have (2nd level already applied, but still fluid.
I've had plenty of characters that have had to go into combat sans armor because the fight started while they were sleeping or otherwise without their armor.
For classes that can "fall," you can expect to be put in situations where making the wrong choice will make you fall. Not lose-lose situations, but ones where there are right and wrong choices.
how about starting as a fallen paladin?
@Ilja: i didn't wanna overshadow the sorc, too much.
@Ilja: i didn't wanna overshadow the sorc, too much.
Don't think that would be a risk - caster level accounts for a lot. Huge difference between sorc 2 and sorc1, and sorc1/wiz1 is a lot closer to the second of those two. But now that you're already split with summoner it's pretty much settled. :)
was just the one that seemed to do something half-useful
As a DM I tend to follow the golden rule of Paizo's message boards "Don't be a jerk." This has kept players from walking away, getting frustrated, getting hurt feelings etc. A game is a social contract. Break the rules and there isn't game.
Only once I've done the "you're captured and all you're stuff is taken away" shtick but the very first priority after escape was getting their stuff back. I think it was A 4, one of the slaver adventures.
A wizard without his spellbook still has all his prepared spells. Taking the book does not make him a commoner, you know. It merely makes him off-his-rocker furious with you. Plus, a decently equipped wizard has more magic items than you can detect in one go. Stealing spellbooks is... Not a get rich quick scheme.
@Sissyl Yes, a wizard has his prepared spells, is why I have only cast a whole 1 spell in 3 game sessions. 120gp. what magic items would you suggest?