Special Material Weapon Hardness


Rules Questions

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Mergy wrote:

I'm sure a lot of people aren't fond of the ruling, but at least we have one. Personally, I would rather adamantine as a whole were nerfed, as it is far too powerful on most weapons.

I'm not aware of any way to have a mithral haft where it would normally be wood. I believe if it is usually made of wood, then you cannot use metal as a replacement.

Except there is an adventure path (Council of Thieves) that includes a mithril quarterstaff as a reward if you resolve a quest a specific way (spoilers excluded).

Dark Archive

So that's an exception to the rule. If it's for a home game, then the GM can choose whether such an exception is necessary. If it's for PFS, hold out for a scenario that includes a mithral quarterstaff, or a mithral-hafted greataxe.


So what was the ruling? I can never find the errata I'm looking for...

Dark Archive

Look at all the materials that make up the weapon, and take the lowest hardness. If someone is going to sunder your greataxe, they're aiming for the part that's easiest to break (the haft).

Therefore, the greatsword is even more superior, and adamantine goes right on being an overpowered special material. :)


Nefreet wrote:
Actually, an FAQ was issued just today regarding this.

But apparently not in this thread. Ahh, found it.

FAQ answer

Summary: An all-adamantine weapon is Hardness 20, one with a haft has the hardness of the haft. They give the example of an ice-hafted weapon having hardness 0, to illustrate the point.

I like the answer a lot, because it gives real explanation of likely misunderstandings.


Gherrick wrote:
Mergy wrote:
While it doesn't answer all the questions (such as what weapons are hafted with wood and which can be hafted entirely with metal), I'm happy that the dev team has been so attentive.
I'm not fond of the FAQ ruling. Couldn't I have an adamantine axe with a mithril haft? What about darkwood? Also, doesn't the enchantment bonus of a weapon increase the hardness, or is that just a 3.5 rule?

Yes every point of enhancement increases hardness by two.


Are you forced to ‘not’ have an adamantite haft for weapons that normally have a wooden haft, like an axe?

With this ruling, not sure why anyone would spend the large amount of funds, and most importantly, having to acquire the materials required to get anything less than a 100% adamantite weapon, with maybe the exception of a story-based weapon or RP reasons.

Dark Archive

You can't replace a wooden part of a weapon with a metal special material, in the same way that you cannot have cold iron blunt arrows (the blunt part being explicitly stated as wooden).

So yes, with the FAQ, most weapons do not get the benefit of adamantine's hardness, and the greatsword has yet another reason that it is the greatest.


The rules do not provide a method for making the hafts of weapons out of special materials and having them still be weapons instead of simply objects. That said, just let the player make it. If the player wants to make an adamantine-hafted spear, I can't see why they couldn't. The rules support crafting arbitrary things like adamantine duck statuettes, so it's up to the GM to decide what happens if the crafter applies the same method to weaponcraft.

(My personal favorite is that there are actual stats for a mithril waffle iron in Ultimate Equipment. Freaking awesome.)


Hobbun wrote:

Are you forced to ‘not’ have an adamantite haft for weapons that normally have a wooden haft, like an axe?

With this ruling, not sure why anyone would spend the large amount of funds, and most importantly, having to acquire the materials required to get anything less than a 100% adamantite weapon, with maybe the exception of a story-based weapon or RP reasons.

So they can axe a stone wall a few questions. Seriously, an adamantine battleaxe and a bit of elbow grease is basically a passwall spell.


Other than the mace, the rules are fairly silent on how it works with weapons that are normally wooden hafted to have a metal haft instead (talking non-special material here). My feeling is these should be custom (different prices & weights) but that's just my opinion and it would add more complexity.


I don't see why you cannot replace the wooden portion of a weapon with mithril, for example. Considering how light mithril is, I would never want to have anything less for a haft on a magic weapon that has a metal head, especially one as expensive as an adamantine weapon would be.

Dark Archive

Gherrick wrote:
I don't see why you cannot replace the wooden portion of a weapon with mithril, for example. Considering how light mithril is, I would never want to have anything less for a haft on a magic weapon that has a metal head, especially one as expensive as an adamantine weapon would be.

You can't because the rules don't allow it. If you'd like to make a house rule, go for it. In PFS, you just can't.


Mergy wrote:
Gherrick wrote:
I don't see why you cannot replace the wooden portion of a weapon with mithril, for example. Considering how light mithril is, I would never want to have anything less for a haft on a magic weapon that has a metal head, especially one as expensive as an adamantine weapon would be.
You can't because the rules don't allow it. If you'd like to make a house rule, go for it. In PFS, you just can't.

In other words, don't use a wooden hafted weapon in pfs if you are looking for a durable magic weapon.


The part that offends me is, you attack the wooden haft, you break the weapon... and the repair cost is as though you had somehow affected the adamantite part.


Can't you simply make a Battleaxe-like object out of 100% Adamantine? It would be an improvised weapon, of course...

But then use the Catch Off Guard feat. That allows you to ignore the penalty for using an improved weapon, plus you can catch opponents flat footed if they're unarmed.

Is that a legit work around?


I think the whole thing is ridiculous. And irksome for no good reason.

Weapons only have wooden shafts because it is economical to create them in that way. That is the sole reason an axe has a wooden handle. It is cheaper to manufacture.

Any weapon with a wooden haft can be made with a metal haft and it would be a 'better' weapon. It would be better balanced, stronger, and slightly lighter...

But they are normally made with wood, because that is 'good enough' and the only part that 'needs' to be metal is the bladed portion.

But, if you are throwing down thousands of gold to craft a better axe, you'd be damn certain not to have a wooden haft. That would be the stupidest crafting decision ever. Ever.

Any crafters who value their craft, and the traditions of smithing would scoff at the very idea of disgracing an Adamantine axehead by attaching it to a wooden haft. Adamantine, the holy grail of all materials, should NEVER be joined with wood. The very idea that this would be common, or accepted, is purely ludicrous.

From the standpoint of immersion, 100% adamantine weapons should be allowed. From the standpoint of realism, it should allowed. From the standpoint of common sense, it should be allowed.

There isn't a good reason to disallow a custom special material weapon from being crafted out of said custom special material, or to not derive the benefits of the special material of which they are crafted out of.

Dark Archive

Remy Balster wrote:

Can't you simply make a Battleaxe-like object out of 100% Adamantine? It would be an improvised weapon, of course...

But then use the Catch Off Guard feat. That allows you to ignore the penalty for using an improved weapon, plus you can catch opponents flat footed if they're unarmed.

Is that a legit work around?

Clarify if this is for a home game or for PFS if you can. If it's a home game, I'm sure most GMs would let you pay a premium to have a normally wooden-hafted weapon made entirely out of adamantine and balanced for it anyway. If it's for PFS, your work around isn't technically legal, although I suppose you could instead just buy some raw adamantine as the resource and use that with Catch Off Guard.

A pound of adamantine (maybe that's an ingot?) is 300 gp, and would probably work as an improvised club, with the benefit of also being adamantine. An adamantine wayfinder from The Pathfinder Society Field Guide would work as well.


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Had I known this, I would NOT have made my PFS character use a battleaxe, nor taken the Weapon Focus: Battleaxe feat. It is basically punishing players for choosing flavor over crunch, for taking an axe instead of a sword because it "looks more like something a viking would carry".

Now, at least for organized play, any metal headed-wooden hafted weapon is out of the gate a sub-optimal weapon choice, for ANY special material, and their use will drop like a stone. Less diversity, blech.

Dark Archive

I agree, and it's why I was hoping that all weapons would simply make use of the weapon chart.

However, there are numerous ways to enhance your battleaxe's hardness despite the wooden haft. The impervious enhancement is 3000 gp (the same price as making a weapon adamantine), and doubles the bonus from a weapon's enhancement bonus.

From there, add a fortifying stone (or two!), from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Each will increase the hardness of your weapon by 5, and take the first 20 points of damage it takes.

A +3 impervious battleaxe and one fortifying stone would cost 22,310 gp, and have an impressive hardness of 22 (5 base plus 12 for enhancements plus 5 from the stone), and 85 hp. No one is sundering that, and adamantine gets no edge against it.

In the end, it is a final expense of 4000 gp for a greataxe to close the hardness gap with a greatsword. That's not exactly fair, but it's also not soul-crushingly terrible. I think axes are fine.


Well, this is all money spent AFTER I've already bought the adamantine axe. I might have to drop coin on the impervious feature and the fortifying stones anyway, but that's money not going toward AC-boosts.

*grumble grumble*

Dark Archive

Well then you've probably also invested in Sunder feats, so I'm not sure you need to be worried about someone else sundering you; a high strength and the +2 bonus to CMD go a long way.

I am glad fortifying stones are in the game, as they make this FAQ less painful to work through.


An adamantine greatsword with that enchant/stone would have 37 hardness. Fyi.


Metal hafts should be automatically included when an item is made masterwork. Imo.

That is what would happen irl. If you are putting more than the minimal cost into making a higher quality axe, it gets a metal handle.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

a full plate is 1,5 inch thick per the Grave Knight template.


@Tobias: #1 This thread's over five years old, and #2 any metal armor which pretends to connect with reality will not be more than a small fraction of an inch in thickness. It has these stats in the game: hardness per material, HP = armor bonus x5 (not dependent on material).


Well, some special materials are priced by weight. These materials base their resulting price based off the total weight of the weapon and not just the head. To me, thin means that all the material is replaced, haft and head.

/cevah

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