Klars - complete lack of consistency


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

40 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

I've been looking at using a klar for a two-shield fighter build, but of all the books it appears in, despite all having them listed as a martial one-handed 1d6 slashing weapon, there seems to be NO consistency between them.

"Rise of the Runelord's Player's Guide wrote:
Klar: Traditionally a Shoanti blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker (a breed of Storval Plateau giant gecko), in recent years the armorers of southern Varisia have started crafting these bladed shields from iron. You can attack an opponent with a klar, using it as an off-hand, martial slashing weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a klar as a light weapon. If you use a klar to make an attack, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). Both the sword and shield segments of a klar can be enhanced separately. An enhancement bonus on the shield does not improve the effectiveness of the blade.
The Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting uses this exact wording, but the Adventurer's Armory has this update (actually in a section labelled "Converting Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting Items"):
Adventurer's Armory wrote:
Klar: This is traditionally a Shoanti blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker (a breed of Storval Plateau giant gecko). Recently the armorers of southern Varisia have started crafting these bladed shields from steel. The klar, like the madu (see page 4) is both a weapon and a shield. If you are proficient with the klar, you may treat it as a spiked light wooden shield (or light steel shield, if made entirely of metal); otherwise it is just a light shield.
But then the thing appears in the Inner Sea World Guide as:
Inner Sea World Guide wrote:
Klar: The klar is a traditional Shoanti weapon consisting of a short blade bound to the skull of a horned reptile. An attack with a klar is treated as an attack with shield spikes. See page 153 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.

And then in Ultimate Equipment as:

Ultimate Equipment wrote:
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.

So, yeah, I'm a bit confused as to how to handle it in PFS.

Mainly, I have three questions:
1. Do I treat it as a light weapon when two-weapon fighting, like the text from earlier versions states, or does the newer version from Ultimate Equipment take priority, and remove the ability?
2. Does attacking with it count as a shield bash, as the text from the Inner Sea World Guide would suggest, despite that wording not appearing in any other source of the weapon?
3. Would Improved Shield Bash work with them, meaning you wouldn't lose the shield bonus when attacking with them?


Huh, I don't have an answer, but did you notice they had armor spikes on a shield there?

Shadow Lodge

MrSin wrote:
Huh, I don't have an answer, but did you notice they had armor spikes on a shield there?

One "WFT?" at a time, man... >.>


That weapon is a mess.

It looks like the weapon charts in ISWG and Varisia, and Ultimate Equipment all have it as a One Handed Weapon. So that's probably right. It's probably safest to treat it that way.

I'm not sure it's suppose to count as a shield bash, especially with most places calling it armor spikes. Of course if it counts as armor spikes then it does damage on a grapple...

You know what I'm going to pretend this item doesn't exist...


The Ultimate Equipment description takes precedence - to use a Klar as a light weapon for two-weapon fighting requires the Thunder and Fang feat


It was changed. It used to be a light slashing weapon with a shield attached. It is now simply a light spiked shield with slightly better base damage.

I don't know why they keep sticking it on the one-handed table, it's always been light.

-j

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber

Actually isn't the Varisia CS book the most recent version of the weapon?

Grand Lodge

I would go with the PRD version, actually. That's a light (wooden or steel) shield with armor spikes.

PRD wrote:
The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.

As for attacks, you treat a light shield as a light martial weapon.

PRD wrote:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See "light shield" in the Martial Weapons table for the damage dealt by a shield bash with a light shield. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

As far as spiked or bash, the rules are essentially the same except spikes make it hit harder.

PRD wrote:
Deadly spikes and bladed projections extend from some shields, transforming such pieces of armor into weapon in their own right. Shield spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger (see "spiked light shield" and "spiked heavy shield" in the Martial Weapons table). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

Grand Lodge

What is the latest book?


Ultimate Equipment and Varisia: Birthplace of Legends were both released September of 2012, but Varisia just tells you to go look at the older Inner Sea World Guide. Which says it's a light Spiked Shield.

Really, this should probably be FAQ'd/errata'd, as far as why it keeps appearing on the one-handed list, when every time it's appeared the description has it as a light.

-j

Grand Lodge

Actually, with the one-handed/light flip back, and "armor spikes" thing, an Errata/FAQ is in order.

I hit it, so should you.


a light shield with shield spikes is stil a light weapon for counting two-handed fighting penelties

i dont see anny inconsistency's here

its a light wooden or steel shield with shield spikes but doese 1d6 damage as a weapon!

this is how the thunder and fang also discribe it! and this is how it is listed on PFSRD

and all attacks with a shield are considert shield bash attacks so yes you can use improved shield bash aswell as double slice thats just how amazing a klar is :-) i wonder why not evryone is using it :-)


The confusion arises because it used to use weapon attack rules instead of shield bash rules, and for some reason it keeps getting printed in the One Handed Weapon charts instead of Light Weapons.

-j


The best description I was given is that it is a "one handed weapon" that can be used as a light spikes shield. However the conditions of its AC or if attacks are considered a shield bash or not is confusing.


A shield getting 'armor spikes' makes no sense. Having it count as a spiked shield keeps it in line with 'stuff shields get' instead of 'stuff armor gets'.

Tagged for FAQ.


Any luck on a response yet?


No idea. It's not like threads that are flagged for FAQ get any kind of response flag / icon / whatchamacallit.


Turin the Mad wrote:
No idea. It's not like threads that are flagged for FAQ get any kind of response flag / icon / whatchamacallit.

Didn't think they would respond here.

Plus I thought it could use a few more FAQ marks :P


I'm fairly certain the "armor spikes" thing was an oversight - author was most likely thinking of shield spikes.

-j


Jason Wu wrote:
I'm fairly certain the "armor spikes" thing was an oversight - author was most likely thinking of shield spikes.

Darn, and I wanted to put shield spikes on my armor spikes. No such thing as too many spikes.


armor spikes are the same thing they are spiked on armor and are the same kind of spikes put on the shield

its just 2 difrent wordings for the same thing! shields could be seen as armor too by the way!

Sczarni

Turin the Mad wrote:
No idea. It's not like threads that are flagged for FAQ get any kind of response flag / icon / whatchamacallit.

actually, they do. When there is a responce, the thread will get a new addition to the "x people have faqed this" saying either no response needed, will be added on next faq addition, or answered in thread (those are the ones I remember seeing


Darkflame wrote:

armor spikes are the same thing they are spiked on armor and are the same kind of spikes put on the shield

its just 2 difrent wordings for the same thing! shields could be seen as armor too by the way!

They have different stats actually. Spiked armor does D6, spiked light shield does D4, spiked heavy shield does D6, Klar does D6 and is a light shield. Also armor spikes deal damage on a grapple.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I see in the original message in this thread that the final word on the klar is in the FAQ, but I can't find it. Can someone help me out please?

Sczarni

Can't seem to find it either...


MrSin wrote:
Darkflame wrote:

armor spikes are the same thing they are spiked on armor and are the same kind of spikes put on the shield

its just 2 difrent wordings for the same thing! shields could be seen as armor too by the way!

They have different stats actually. Spiked armor does D6, spiked light shield does D4, spiked heavy shield does D6, Klar does D6 and is a light shield. Also armor spikes deal damage on a grapple.

Hmm interesting, had not thought about that.

Grand Lodge

IconoclasticScream wrote:
I see in the original message in this thread that the final word on the klar is in the FAQ, but I can't find it. Can someone help me out please?

I see that is is marked as answered in the FAQ but I can't find in any of the FAQ sections.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Hey, has anyone figured out how a Madu is supposed to work in combat?

Relevant Text from UE:
The weapon entry.

The armor entry

Note, that it says if you are not proficient, treat it as a light spiked shield...

I asked this in a thread a while ago, and I never got anything that was a definitive answer:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oycy?Madu-Klar-and-Shield-spikes


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I'd also be interested in a link to any paizo faq that clarifies how the klar works when attacking, is upgraded, etc.

1) Do you attack with a klar
A) as a slashing weapon dealing 1d6 slashing
B) as a shield bash with a light spiked shield dealing 1d4 piercing
C) as a shield bash somehow using an armor spike dealing 1d6 piercing
D) either B or C but with slashing damage?

2) If used as a shield bash, do enhance
A) the spikey skull because it counts as armor spikes
B) the blade strapped to the skull because it counts as armor spikes
C) the shield itself, which may not have any spikes, but counts as having them.


My one and only bump.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Where the FAQ is the FAQ?
This is so FAQ'd up.
I can't find the FAQing FAQ for FAQ sakes.


I seem to remember that the thing that makes this weird is that it was originally an Exotic Weapon that could be used without having Exotic Proficiency. .

With EWP (exotic weapon proficiency) you could use this as a light weapon in your offhand.

With Regular old martial level skills or MWP (martial weapon proficiency). It could be used as a one handed weapon.

This is similar to how the Aldori Dueling Sword is either a one handed, finessable weapon with EWP or identical to a long sword with MWP.

The Madu is also designed like this.
It's a light spiked shield with MWP.
It's a light spiked shield that gives a bonus to Combat Expertise with EWP.

The Scorpion Whip has a similar design structure save that it has no MWP application but could get all of the Whip abilities if you also had EwP Whip (a double feat tax).

All of these weapons were introduced around the same time, just prior to the edition shift. Nothing else seems have followed this design path since. Likely due to confusion from other weapons that are just plain old exotic.

I can't find the FAQ for it either.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just FYI, Klar was never exotic.


It's saying, "Answered in the FAQ". Anyone have a link to the FAQ? I'm not seeing any mention of klar in any of the FAQs.

Silver Crusade

The link to the FAQ is in the very upper-right of the page. All the way right and all the way to the top.


I know, and I clicked on every FAQ in there and did ctrl+f for "klar." Nothing came up.


For older FAQs, if they didn't have an answer but needed to clear it out of their FAQ queue, they had limited options on how to label it so usually they just put "answered in FAQ" even though no FAQ was every made. Now, they have more options like "already answered in FAQ" or "no answer necessary". In this case, I'd say since they have Ultimate Equipment out, that's the version to go to and the "answered in FAQ" is a stand-in for "the answer should be pretty obvious". They list Armor Spikes since the damage for a Klar is bigger than that of a light spiked shield since the Klar has one oversized spike rather than a bunch of little spikes. Damage for a Medium Light Spiked Shield is only 1d4 but damage for both a Klar and Armor Spikes is 1d6. By default, it is a one-handed weapon, but by virtue of its description, it is also counted as a light shield with armor spikes so you can not only TWF with it as if it were light and have it benefit from any rules element that would apply to a light shield, but it also can be treated as a one-handed weapon, meaning you could two-hand it for 1.5x Str to damage.

Sczarni

So can you TWF with 2 klars and Weapon Finesse? Not if it's a 1 handed weapon as it doesn't have the finesse special quality. But if it's also treated as if it were light for TWF I suppose that would be legal?


Kazaan wrote:
For older FAQs, if they didn't have an answer but needed to clear it out of their FAQ queue, they had limited options on how to label it so usually they just put "answered in FAQ" even though no FAQ was every made. Now, they have more options like "already answered in FAQ" or "no answer necessary". In this case, I'd say since they have Ultimate Equipment out, that's the version to go to and the "answered in FAQ" is a stand-in for "the answer should be pretty obvious". They list Armor Spikes since the damage for a Klar is bigger than that of a light spiked shield since the Klar has one oversized spike rather than a bunch of little spikes. Damage for a Medium Light Spiked Shield is only 1d4 but damage for both a Klar and Armor Spikes is 1d6. By default, it is a one-handed weapon, but by virtue of its description, it is also counted as a light shield with armor spikes so you can not only TWF with it as if it were light and have it benefit from any rules element that would apply to a light shield, but it also can be treated as a one-handed weapon, meaning you could two-hand it for 1.5x Str to damage.

Even with their new tag options, I would hope they wouldn't mark something like this with no answer needed without a developer post explaining why (and thus defeating the purpose of the tag). In this case it requires a player to know to refer to the rules for a klar, light shield, shield bashing, shield spikes, armor spikes, one handed and light weapons and then know the print dates for about four different publications and from all of that derive that the klar is the exception to the rule that damages as if it was spiked armor but doesn't automatically damage in a grapple and can be used as light for TWF but also two handed for a strength bonus as a one handed weapon. All very confusing.


Nothing I find answers my two questions above.


1) A Klar deals 1d6 slashing damage. Also, by virtue of the explicit statement that it counts as a light shield with armor spikes, it could reasonable be argued that it can also deal 1d6 piercing damage as armor spikes would.

2) You enhance shields as weapon, shield, or both. Thinking of it as "enhancing the spikes or the bladed" is unnecessarily convoluted; you have separate enhancement statistics for it as a weapon for all offensive purposes and as a shield for all defensive purposes. For instance, your Klar could be enhanced as a +1 Flaming weapon while, simultaneously, enhanced as a +2 Blinding shield. The +1 Flaming applies to shield bashes while the +2 Blinding applies to defensive properties.


Could you enchant he shield as a combine +10 weapon and +10 shield? Does it do damage in a grapple as armor spikes?


The enhancements are pooled together so the shield still can't get over the +10 max limit. For instance, a shield enhanced with +1 to attack/damage, Flaming (equivalent +1), and +2 to AC bonus would be priced as a +4 enhancement and the total caps out at +10 as usual.

Regarding the armor spikes used in a grapple, on reading UE again, in the weapons section, it seems that even Spiked Heavy and Light shields reference back to Armor Spikes in the armor section to get how they work. The Armor section, however, lists both Armor Spikes and Shield Spikes separately so it may not be as straight forward as I originally thought. However, if I had to extrapolate, I'd say since the Spiked Armor entry in Weapons corroborates the Grappling damage which is also brought up in the Armor Spikes entry in Armor, but the Spiked Shield Weapon entries aren't corroborated by the Shield Spikes entry in Armor, the most reasonable conclusion is that the Shield Spike on the Klar doesn't benefit from the allowance to apply the Shield Spike damage on grapple checks.


Kazaan wrote:

1) A Klar deals 1d6 slashing damage. Also, by virtue of the explicit statement that it counts as a light shield with armor spikes, it could reasonable be argued that it can also deal 1d6 piercing damage as armor spikes would.

2) You enhance shields as weapon, shield, or both. Thinking of it as "enhancing the spikes or the bladed" is unnecessarily convoluted; you have separate enhancement statistics for it as a weapon for all offensive purposes and as a shield for all defensive purposes. For instance, your Klar could be enhanced as a +1 Flaming weapon while, simultaneously, enhanced as a +2 Blinding shield. The +1 Flaming applies to shield bashes while the +2 Blinding applies to defensive properties.

Or if you're a ranger, fighter or slayer, you can get the Shield Master feat, and just have a +5 shield , or klar in this case, and have that apply to both your AC and your attack/damage. If you're going for Thunder and Fang it's better with Ranger and Slayer, since you can skip the prereqs for Shield Master since Improved Shield Bash is redundant once you have Thunder and Fang.

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