Goblin Squad Member
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The game generally keeps track of who's "attacked" you, so that if you truly want to you can issue bounties, death curses, etc.
It shouldn't be too hard then, to give players a box listing people who have "wronged you" (i.e. attacked you, hit you with spells, etc.) that allows people to choose whether or not to forgive that person or not. The system is unforgiven biased, and you have 24 hours to choose to forgive or not. If you do not forgive them within 24 hours, then the game assumes you do not forgive them. If you do forgive them, the the game simply refunds the reputation/alignment hit they took for the attack. (Alternatively, the reputation hit does not take effect until the choice is made to forgive them or not).
I don't see this option being open for system abuse, though you always have the chance that the person who should forgive you simply chooses not to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see the scenario of the guy that runs out in front of a moving car. Hey you hit me, give me some coin and I shall forgive you.
I don't necessarily have a problem with this, I can see the earning potential in it. But, I'm sure one will see it as..... A word I don't wish to use, since it is too frequently thrown about in almost every circumstance.
The solution to unintended casualties in the use of AOE, is to b careful when using AOE and accept the consequences when accidents happen.
Isn't this something like what Saluting is? I'm not saying it's the same thing, but they seem similar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there should be a "forgiveness" for FF. When using AoE, it's part of the calculations you need to make. Will I hit team-mates? If I do, how much damage will I do? Will the damage I do to enemies outweigh the damage I do to my team? (this is all under the Good alignment I guess. (Chaotic)Evil will just do it. and say it's the teams fault for being in his way :D)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, honestly I would like to see more of a "Who Cares" train of thought.
More like 0.0 in Eve. But I guess that would be against some of the griefing mechanics they are trying to avoid.
If your out in the wilderness, who cares who shoots what. There is no one around except the two parties involved, and which one are you going to believe?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, honestly I would like to see more of a "Who Cares" train of thought.
More like 0.0 in Eve. But I guess that would be against some of the griefing mechanics they are trying to avoid.
If your out in the wilderness, who cares who shoots what. There is no one around except the two parties involved, and which one are you going to believe?
Xeen, at least one poster has already expressed fear that AOE can lead to griefing, by someone inserting a sacraficial stealthed lamb, into someone else's AOE attack. This would lead to the "ambush" scenario, having flagged yourselves for the entire group of the stealthed target.
I'm not sure why this is thought of as "griefing", more like setting up a decoy or a trap, but some people see griefing around every corner I guess.
In the wilderness, as you correctly suggest, it would not matter because everyone is PVP enabled anyway. That, and there are no alignment of reputation repercussions in the wilderness anyway. It is 0.0 space of PFO.
So you can nuke away with your bad selves in the wilderness!!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh ok, I didnt think they were doing it that way. Ill have to reread some blog posts lol.
I was under the impression that Alignment and Reputation stuff was always on. Flagging in the wilderness, eh who cares (other then the bonuses for setup flags.)
If it is like 0.0 then, I dont see how it matters if someone trys to flag trap you... unless moving hexes is like jumping gates... if your combat active, wait 60 seconds then you can jump hexes. I would suspect that will be the case, but dont remember reading it either.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@bluddwolf
Its not something that should be encouraged. its an abuse of the mechanics to trick someone into opening themselves up to getting flagged. This is a limitation of being in a game and the mechanics not being able to cover everything.
Its not a decoy and its not a trap. Its like blue blocking, its an abuse of mechanics.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh ok, I didnt think they were doing it that way. Ill have to reread some blog posts lol.
I was under the impression that Alignment and Reputation stuff was always on. Flagging in the wilderness, eh who cares (other then the bonuses for setup flags.)
If it is like 0.0 then, I dont see how it matters if someone trys to flag trap you... unless moving hexes is like jumping gates... if your combat active, wait 60 seconds then you can jump hexes. I would suspect that will be the case, but dont remember reading it either.
This is from "Screaming For Vengeance" Blog. But the term for the type of hex may have changed:
In uncontrolled territory, no player settlement is present in the hex. Murder does not apply the Criminal flag, but attacking an unflagged target still applies the Attacker flag (and flags from other sources persist until they expire naturally). Help is also potentially very far away. A player killer here is likely to be free of the Attacker flag before anyone else shows up. These areas also tend to have the rarest resources, encouraging players to take their chances against bandits in the woods.
If murder does not apply, then there is no shift to evil or reputation loss. The attacker flag will only apply a shift to Chaotic.
The Devs have still not detailed how players will build up Lawful, other than inactivity. When we log out, we automatically but slowly, shift to lawful. depending on how far from Lawful you start at, it could take hours or even days or weeks to get to Lawful. If you tend not to fight too much at all, you will be Lawful and likely Lawful Neutral. But, that is just a guess on my part.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can see the scenario of the guy that runs out in front of a moving car. Hey you hit me, give me some coin and I shall forgive you.
I don't necessarily have a problem with this, I can see the earning potential in it. But, I'm sure one will see it as..... A word I don't wish to use, since it is too frequently thrown about in almost every circumstance.
The solution to unintended casualties in the use of AOE, is to b careful when using AOE and accept the consequences when accidents happen.
That could happen, but at the same timeif the person wanted to grief, he could run out in front of you to simply get you to lose alignment/rep anyhow.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Devs have still not detailed how players will build up Lawful, other than inactivity. When we log out, we automatically but slowly, shift to lawful. depending on how far from Lawful you start at, it could take hours or even days or weeks to get to Lawful. If you tend not to fight too much at all, you will be Lawful and likely Lawful Neutral. But, that is just a guess on my part.
I would guess that PVE is the main route for Lawful. Not sure though, would have to think about it. Maybe guarding caravans and fighting off attackers. Hmmm... There arent too many ways outside of PVE I can think of.
Goblinworks Founder
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I would guess that PVE is the main route for Lawful. Not sure though, would have to think about it. Maybe guarding caravans and fighting off attackers. Hmmm... There arent too many ways outside of PVE I can think of.
The Devs have still not detailed how players will build up Lawful, other than inactivity. When we log out, we automatically but slowly, shift to lawful. depending on how far from Lawful you start at, it could take hours or even days or weeks to get to Lawful. If you tend not to fight too much at all, you will be Lawful and likely Lawful Neutral. But, that is just a guess on my part.
Taking contracts for any reason and ensuring they are fulfilled. I can think of a few PvP related contracts, but they mainly revolve around escorting or bounty hunting.
Fulfilling a contract to escort another player, whether it be a caravan, traveller, prospector or any other player that requires protection.
Fulfilling a contract to capture or kill an outlaw.
PvE related could be anything that requires trading or selling merchandise honourably and by the law.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is from "Screaming For Vengeance" Blog. But the term for the type of hex may have changed:
In uncontrolled territory, no player settlement is present in the hex. Murder does not apply the Criminal flag, but attacking an unflagged target still applies the Attacker flag (and flags from other sources persist until they expire naturally). Help is also potentially very far away. A player killer here is likely to be free of the Attacker flag before anyone else shows up. These areas also tend to have the rarest resources, encouraging players to take their chances against bandits in the woods.If murder does not apply, then there is no shift to evil or reputation loss. The attacker flag will only apply a shift to Chaotic.
The Devs have still not detailed how players will build up Lawful, other than inactivity. When we log out, we automatically but slowly, shift to lawful. depending on how far from Lawful you start at, it could take hours or even days or weeks to get to Lawful. If you tend not to fight too much at all, you will be Lawful and likely Lawful Neutral. But, that is just a guess on my part.
•You slip toward evil whenever you kill someone while you have the Attacker flag or gain the Heinous flag. For killing, you move less if the target was also evil (in other words, it's more evil to kill a good character).
•If you have the Attacker flag, when you kill a target you lose reputation proportional to the reputation of the target (it's less disreputable to murder targets that have low reputation). Additionally, the target might further choose to rebuke you (even if it didn't result in a kill), expending some of his or her reputation to lower yours.
Nothing in here says anything about murder or the criminal flag. If you kill someone while you have Attacker (which you get in the wilderness), then you get the evil shift and the rep loss.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@robert4818 - On the face of it, this seems like a really good idea, I had a quick read of this earlier and come back and can't shake that impression. In fact GrumypMel suggests this might be very applicable in the recent blog concerning FF in particular. Why not, I'm struggling to think against it. Gives the player discretion for alignment/reputation approval without removing the bad effects to HP etc that suffering an attack results in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yup I heartily support this and I think it's a decent answer to many situations which involve some form of mutualy agreed upon conflict...not only FF incidents but "duels" and "combat training".
Since it's entirely at the discretion of the target who suffered the damage, I really don't see how it defangs FF in any way....and it does nothing about the damage, just the reputation loss and alignment hit.
Even in the "car jumper" scenario, at least it would give the "driver" the option of paying a financial fine instead of a rep/alignment one, if that was more palatible to him. I don't see how that would make that situation any worse really....and the "car jumper" could essentialy do the same thing now without such a mechanic...they'd just merely do thier extortion routiene in advance instead (e.g. "Hey buddy, give me X gold or I'll follow you around hidden and make sure if you use any AOE spells, you'll hit me and lose rep/alignment) same effect essentialy.....and probably harrassment as far as GW is concerned, at least if it was done repeatedly to the same individual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nothing in here says anything about murder or the criminal flag. If you kill someone while you have Attacker (which you get in the wilderness), then you get the evil shift and the rep loss.
They have changed the terminology from "wilderness" to "unsettled hex". The "Murder" and "Criminal" flags are what move you towards evil. Attacker Flags only move you towards Chaotic.
In the "unsettled hexes" there are no laws, and so there are no "Murder" or "Criminal" flags. Everyone is fair game in these hexes, without penalty to alignment or reputation. To use an EVE Online reference... it is 0.0 space.
But even considering that, anyone in these lawless hexes, will be runnign around with "Outlaw", "Assassin" or "Enforcer" flags, which disable the alignment and rep losses because using those flags are determined to be participating in "Meaningful PVP".
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Goblin Squad Member
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They have changed the terminology from "wilderness" to "unsettled hex". The "Murder" and "Criminal" flags are what move you towards evil. Attacker Flags only move you towards Chaotic.
I haven't seen anything to that effect, particularly given that they were talking about wilderness hexes last week. Can you point me to the source of your information so I can see what I'm missing?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I haven't seen anything to that effect, particularly given that they were talking about wilderness hexes last week. Can you point me to the source of your information so I can see what I'm missing?
From The Deadliest Game:
If you're interested in PvP, this will be a way for you to constructively pursue that style of play without worrying about being condemned by the community for being a jerk, or facing significant mechanical penalties imposed by the game systems.
There is also the need to read some of Stephen Cheney's responses for some clarification. Also note that some of the Dev Blogs dod not mesh 100% with each toher, as some are older and have been modifeid.
Example: On the forums the lawless zoens used to be described as "Wilderness", but now "Wilderness" has been redifined as something else, and the "Unsettled Hexes" have retained the emaning of what we used to call wilderness hexes.
But it really doesn;t matter what they call them...
My undertsanding of piecing a few sources together is that:
Attacker / Outlaw = Chaos
Murder / Criminal = Evil
And in the "unsettled hexes" PVP, with or without flags will have no significant mechanical penalties. In the other Blogs, having the voluntary PVP flags operating, also shields you from some of the negative penalties as well.
I do not know if these mitigating flags and areas of operation stack, resulting in no negative consequences, I guess that would need some more clarification.
Back to the Forgivemness Soultion... Let the victim decide to forgive or hold a grudge... pretty simple.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwulf,
I believe that you are wrong on this. Killing someone while having the "Attacker" flag on you will shift you toward "Evil". Having an active PvP flag on you will mitigate that effect under specific circumstances.
However that comes with the price of being open for anyone to attack without consequence.
Hex's where no laws apply simply mean that there will be no "Criminal" flags...hence the other mechanisms triggered by "Criminal" as opposed to simply "Attacker" apply.
For example "Champions" who attack "evil" characters where such action is not legal will get the Chaotic shift from "Criminal" that they would normaly avoid if was merely "Attacker". However, Champions who attack non-evil characters in hex's where no law applies STILL get an Attacker Flag for doing so (and a Chaotic shift) and still get an "Evil" shift if they end up killing those characters.
That is the whole purpose to PvP Flags...to mitigate certain penalties for PvP in situations which they otherwise would apply...at the price of opening yourself up to PvP in return.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think there should be a "forgiveness" for FF. When using AoE, it's part of the calculations you need to make. Will I hit team-mates? If I do, how much damage will I do? Will the damage I do to enemies outweigh the damage I do to my team? (this is all under the Good alignment I guess. (Chaotic)Evil will just do it. and say it's the teams fault for being in his way :D)
Missed this first time through.
Forgiveness is for the alignment/reputation side of things (upto and including the flags that may come with it).
Basically, it allows for players to take agreed upon actions even with the understanding that they may be hurt in the process.
I.E. If your fighter is in melee with a group of enemies, and he asks you to AOE them, why should you get an align/rep hit for doing what he wanted done? After the fight, the fighter can turn around, forgive you, and alls well. He still took that fireball to the face, suffered the damage from it, and maybe even had to be resurrected because of it. However, he wanted that fireball to come flying his way. On the other hand, if your wizard gets uppity, starts throwing fireballs without thinking and fries his fighter, the fighter can just let nature take its course. He can either take the time to explicitly not forgive the wizzy, or just let the wizzy's "offense" sit in the queue for 24 hours, either way because the wizard was an idiot, he'll suffer the penalties for it.