Can we ban Lessons of Chaldira from PFS?


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Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Skill focus also works even if you have no ranks in it, so the comparison should be +1 for the trait versus +3 from the feat.

Eh, but it's still at least comparable. If you care that much about a particular skill, you'll want a rank in it.

The Exchange 5/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Skill focus also works even if you have no ranks in it, so the comparison should be +1 for the trait versus +3 from the feat.

I'm a cleric (or a wizard, or a fighter, or a paladin, or... etc.) so,

Tomb Raider gives a +1 to Perception and Kn(Dungeoneering) and makes one a class skill...

Skill Focus Perception = +3 Perception
Tomb Raider = +4 Perception & +1 Kn(Dungeoneering)...

Every PC class has skills they would like to use, that aren't class skills. There usually is a trait to give them this skill as a class skill (+3) and a trait bonus of +1 (and often on another skill too)

Edit: and why would I pick a trait for a skill, and NOT put even one rank in it?

Dark Archive 4/5

Skill Focus also increases to +6 with 10 ranks, so it's not really valid to say it's not as good as a trait. The trait also only gives its biggest return if you don't already have the skill as a class skill.

The Exchange 5/5

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
Skill Focus also increases to +6 with 10 ranks, so it's not really valid to say it's not as good as a trait. The trait also only gives its biggest return if you don't already have the skill as a class skill.

But you wouldn't take it if it was for a Class skill.

I am not saying that Skill Focus is not any good, just that I consider the trait to be stronger.

As to the increase at 10 ranks, this is only good at 10th level, something that doesn't happen in PFS until we have played the PC A LOT.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nosig wrote:
Edit: and why would I pick a trait for a skill, and NOT put even one rank in it?

Dunno. But you totally can. Maybe you need the feat for a prereq but not the rank.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Amusing staw men aside, the issue raised by the OP is that it is better than spending 2-3 second tier traits.

That it can be used after the result is revealed is what set alarms off for me. Not much else can do that.

One reason I can see for the trait is to put skill points in it later. (like if your intelligence goes up).

Grand Lodge 4/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
nosig wrote:
Edit: and why would I pick a trait for a skill, and NOT put even one rank in it?
Dunno. But you totally can. Maybe you need the feat for a prereq but not the rank.

So it is slightly better than just untrained initially, and so I get the class skill bonus when I buy that Headband of Vast Intelligence +2, and choose to use it for that skill.

Which is pretty much what I am doing with my Lore Warden. His headband, when he gets it, will give him max ranks, automatically, in Acrobatics, just about the same time as the class ability "Hair's Breadth" comes into play. Add in those Boot of Elvenkind, and he will actually have a reasonable chance of avoiding that critical.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Yiroep wrote:
Deussu wrote:
Definitely going to take Lessons of Chaldira for my extra-cheesy Aasimar Urban Barbarian/Dawnflower Dervish Bard.
Uhh..Dawnflower Dervish...in other words you worship Sarenrae, not Chaldira.

Yeah, Samuli actually corrected me on that earlier. So no Lessons for my cheesemaker.

So sad.

1/5

This thread gave me an idea though. I'll retrain one of my characters to a Chaldira converting dwarven monk. Glory of Old and Lessons of Chaldira for everyone :)

5/5

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eesh .. this thread is still going ... hasn't it been badgered to death enough?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Nope. We tried throwing a save or die at it, but when it failed its save...

Grand Lodge 4/5

So this trait is now popping up in my region like some sort of virus. You can bet your socks the PCs have no frigging idea who Chaldira is either.
Why isn't this ridiculous trait banned yet? Can anyone explain? >:(

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Andrei Buters wrote:
You can bet your socks the PCs have no frigging idea who Chaldira is either.

Can't the players just read about her in their copies of Faiths of Purity?


Here thar be necromancy. Approach with caution.

Paz wrote:
Andrei Buters wrote:
You can bet your socks the PCs have no frigging idea who Chaldira is either.
Can't the players just read about her in their copies of Faiths of Purity?

Yarr, quiz them on her! Or maybe ask them to present their copy. Or quit caring, its not that awful.

1/5

Interesting post.

Samuli,

I received a third trait boon at Paizocon. Guess what feat I chose? Lessons of Chaldira for my human ranger. I even purchased the book so it would be legal for my character to have it.

But then I confirmed that it is required that I actually worship Chaldira to have this trait. Well, my ranger is not worshiping Chaldira. He's not worshiping anyone. The closest he came to converting to a religion was Calistra after experiencing a Bit of Luck (and a few other things) from one of her clerics.

And while I agree this is an awesome trait. And even though I paid money for a book JUST to get that trait. I couldn't see past having to worship a halfling god. Too steep a price.

Personally, I don't agree with the ban. Why?

1. Mainly because saving throw re-rolls for PC's are not detrimental to the game.

2. Anyone can take it.

3. The fluff behind it is a huge turn-off, imo.

Grand Lodge 4/5

N N 959 wrote:


1. Mainly because saving throw re-rolls for PC's are not detrimental to the game.

I completely disagree with this. The Pathfinder combat system has a foundation that the PCs need to feel threatened in a combat environment. A gaming system that allows multiple, cheap avenues for players 'slap away' the majority of all sources of saving throw danger in the combat system quickly becomes a boring game. Some players like being able to withstand any and all threats from their wet cardboard opponents. Personally, it puts me to sleep.

While you have enough of a solid image of your character's personality that you cannot connect the idea of the hero worshipping Chaldira, there are plenty of players who don't have this character development done. They see their religion box and worry about it later. A few seconds clicking on d20pfsrd, they see a crazy OP trait, they take it, and suddenly you have House Thrune loyalists, Half-orc barbarians, Katapeshi slavers and Rahadoumi summoners running around worshipping Iomedae's plucky halfling mini-me in order to trivialize encounters with any BBEG that forces a saving throw. By making a religion trait far better than any other religion traits, you are placing a clear player incentive skewed towards Chaldira worship.

These 'player incentive' power option can be a great tool for developers. Consider the leap in power of the scimitar between 3.5's Faerun and PF's Golarion. Because we now have a nation where scimitar use is common and flavourful, the powerful scimitar options make scimitar use more common with players. This argument doesn't gel with Chaldira. She is a minor Golarion deity at best with little to no actual impact on the setting. Yet the incentive encourages massive Chaldira worship amongst players. Why? To sell books?

For me - it just boils down to one question: are we serious about Pathfinder game balance or not? If we're not, let's start getting way more creative with the power level of our new traits. If we are, then this trait is a clear outlier.

5/5

Matthew Morris wrote:
asthyril wrote:
Samuli wrote:
The shirt re-roll can, of course, be used on any d20 roll. Though, in practice, I've seen it used only on failed saving throws.
for the record, ive seen it on more attack rolls than anything else.

Mine only works on saves, Really.

I've burned it on to hit rolls twice now.

Once I rolled a 1, reroll was a 2
Then later game, same character. Rolled a 1, reroll was.... a 3.

Now when I *do* connect with the tangleburn bag, key annoyed GM and amused player.

Don't forget to add your +2 bonus!

5/5

Andrei Buters wrote:
For me - it just boils down to one question: are we serious about Pathfinder game balance or not? If we're not, let's start getting way more creative with the power level of our new traits. If we are, then this...

This. Please ban this Mike.


Andrei Buters wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
1. Mainly because saving throw re-rolls for PC's are not detrimental to the game.
I completely disagree with this. The Pathfinder combat system has a foundation that the PCs need to feel threatened in a combat environment.

There's a lot of opinion instilled in your post instead of fact. Take a short break, deep breath, remember its been around and still hasn't shattered the game into a billion pieces yet. That's what martial-caster disparity threads are for!

Something to remember is a single reroll won't break the game or remove all threat.

Sczarni 3/5

LETS BAN ALL THE TRAITS!!!!

1/5

Andrei Buters wrote:
N N 959 wrote:


1. Mainly because saving throw re-rolls for PC's are not detrimental to the game.
A gaming system that allows multiple, cheap avenues for players 'slap away' the majority of all sources of saving throw danger in the combat system quickly becomes a boring game.

The problem here is that you're not really able to back up any of that with any objective fact. You know what I took instead of LoC? Magical Knack. You're going to have a hard time proving that my character isn't more powerful as a result of MK. Between four characters and maybe twenty scenarios, you know how many times I've used my folio reroll? Once. No...twice, I used it once on a Day Job. I benefit from MK every time I cast a spell.

So the benefit from any trait/feat/spell is highly dependent on the circumstance. Kind of impossible for you to prove it's not "balanced."

Quote:
Some players like being able to withstand any and all threats from their wet cardboard opponents. Personally, it puts me to sleep.

Sorry, I just can't make that leap from a once-a-game-day saving throw.

Quote:
By making a religion trait far better than any other religion traits, you are placing a clear player incentive skewed towards Chaldira worship.

So your real argument isn't that it's game breaking, you're up in arms because it makes another trait look less attractive? LoC isn't the only comparative feat that subjectively beats it's brethren. I've seen a couple of Social traits where one is clearly better than the other. I think there is some Barbarian trait that is like Toughness 2.0

Quote:
She is a minor Golarion deity at best with little to no actual impact on the setting. Yet the incentive encourages massive Chaldira worship amongst players. Why? To sell books?

Uh, yeah...that's how these companies make money. Sure, I think it's bad form to make the newest books have demonstrably better things, but one saving throw per day is hardly game breaking, imo.

Quote:
For me - it just boils down to one question: are we serious about Pathfinder game balance or not?

The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

5/5

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N N 959 wrote:
The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

Can't or choose not to? It's been stated by many official sources that a trait equals "about" half a feat. If a trait clearly does the equivalent or more than a feat, then it's not properly balanced.

Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't make it fundamentally impossible to define.

1/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

Can't or choose not to? It's been stated by many official sources that a trait equals "about" half a feat. If a trait clearly does the equivalent or more than a feat, then it's not properly balanced.

Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't make it fundamentally impossible to define.

Since you don't seem to understand what it means to "balance" something I'm not sure why there is any point in having the discussion.


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Kyle Baird wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

Can't or choose not to? It's been stated by many official sources that a trait equals "about" half a feat. If a trait clearly does the equivalent or more than a feat, then it's not properly balanced.

Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't make it fundamentally impossible to define.

The various "use your Int instead of Charisma for some skills" traits fall foul of this "half feat" definition Paizo has given.

Why yes, I'll use this trait that's far better than Skill Focus for whatever Cha-skills I need.


Hey. Be nice.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
N N 959 wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

Can't or choose not to? It's been stated by many official sources that a trait equals "about" half a feat. If a trait clearly does the equivalent or more than a feat, then it's not properly balanced.

Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't make it fundamentally impossible to define.

Since you don't seem to understand what it means to "balance" something I'm not sure why there is any point in having the discussion.

balance

ˈbaləns/

verb

2. offset or compare the value of (one thing) with another.

Obviously I have no clue what "to balance" means.

1/5

In order to do that you need one critical quality in the two things you are comparing.

5/5

N N 959 wrote:
In order to do that you need one critical quality in the two things you are comparing.

Again, can't vs. won't (unwilling)

It's much easier to make the statement that "it can't be done" than actually do the work to prove that it can't be.

1/5

Let me phrase it like a question, what is the quality that you need between the two things you are comparing?

Dark Archive 2/5

You know, making threads on these traits just makes them more wide spread. When I have to look at a list of hundreds of traits, pick two, whenever I make a character, I don't go through all the traits to see which ones are the "best." I mostly stick to a handful of good standby traits. But no, now we have a thread on it, so now I expect to see a new cult of Caldira form up in my local PFS. Thanks guys.

4/5

Cheapy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

Can't or choose not to? It's been stated by many official sources that a trait equals "about" half a feat. If a trait clearly does the equivalent or more than a feat, then it's not properly balanced.

Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't make it fundamentally impossible to define.

The various "use your Int instead of Charisma for some skills" traits fall foul of this "half feat" definition Paizo has given.

Why yes, I'll use this trait that's far better than Skill Focus for whatever Cha-skills I need.

Fortune's Favored is also hugely overpowered if you have a permanent luck bonus, like some half-orcs do from the start. It's at least +1 to all saves for such a half-orc, and that's not counting that it doubles the bonus to other stuff from the prayer spell.

5/5

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Reactionary: Improve chance of acting before any given creature by 10%
Improved Initiative: Improve chance of acting before any given creature by 20%.

Reactionary = .5 * Improved Initiative.

Resilient: Improve odds of succeeding at a fortitude save by 5%
Great Fortitude: Improve odds of succeeding at a fortitude save by 10%

Resilient = .5 * Great Fortitude

(yes I know the above %'s aren't exact given natural 20s/1s and/or bonuses too high or low to matter, but they're close enough for this inane argument)

Lessons of Chaldira: Reroll any one failed save once per day.
Improved Great Fortitude: Reroll one fortitude save before the result is known once per day.

Both of these increase the odds of succeeding at any given saving throw until it's used by a certain percentage (which isn't something I'm going to calculate because it's highly variable and I'm not getting paid to do this). LoC increases those odds higher than IGF because you can reroll AFTER you know the result. It's entirely possible that an IGF reroll may happen even though the result was a success (hi Joe! SWIFT DEATH!).

5/5

Aaron Mayhew wrote:
now I expect to see a new cult of Caldira form up in my local PFS. Thanks guys.

Besides you and Findlanderboy, who else in our area actually reads the boards that close?

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

Can't or choose not to? It's been stated by many official sources that a trait equals "about" half a feat. If a trait clearly does the equivalent or more than a feat, then it's not properly balanced.

Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't make it fundamentally impossible to define.

The various "use your Int instead of Charisma for some skills" traits fall foul of this "half feat" definition Paizo has given.

Why yes, I'll use this trait that's far better than Skill Focus for whatever Cha-skills I need.

Fortune's Favored is also hugely overpowered if you have a permanent luck bonus, like some half-orcs do from the start. It's at least +1 to all saves for such a half-orc, and that's not counting that it doubles the bonus to other stuff from the prayer spell.

Archaeologist Bard

3/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Aaron Mayhew wrote:
now I expect to see a new cult of Caldira form up in my local PFS. Thanks guys.
Besides you and Findlanderboy, who else in our area actually reads the boards that close?

Hey what did I do? and where did that d come from?

4/5

Two traits will let you empower a fireball with a 3rd level slot. Traits are great and this is a solid defensive one, but my pc with it is almost 8 (20.5 xp) and has been through both bonekeeps, has only used it once.

The feat allows someone with good saves to mitigate bad luck. If you've already got crappy saves, it won't help much.

Defensive Strategist makes you not flatfooted under most normal combat circumstances, which is huge when you consider immediate action spells (that you couldn't use flatfooted).

Dangerously Curious is by far the best trait in the game for most non-magic users, as it allows you to use magic, which is better than not using it.

There are many good traits, and the best ones are usually religion or magic, which is inherently limiting because there are alignment restrictions on Lessons of Chaldira, and Defensive Strategist, and require Chaldira or Torag respectively.

Magical lineage was banned for a LONG time until someone asked Mike Brock why, and he asked them to present arguments, which he found persuasive. +2 Caster level is better than what any feat can do (Varisian Tattoo, Bloatmage Initiate), but multiclassed gishes, and hybrids, taking this trait don't break the game, haven't become ubiquitous, or even required (some may find metamagic savings better, and that is either region or magic).

Allowing someone to mitigate bad luck isn't even an uncommon, especially in PFS, how often do you see people folio/shirt reroll nat 1s on saving throws?


Cheapy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
N N 959 wrote:
The fundamental problem with this position is that we can't prove anything is actually "balanced."

Can't or choose not to? It's been stated by many official sources that a trait equals "about" half a feat. If a trait clearly does the equivalent or more than a feat, then it's not properly balanced.

Just because someone doesn't understand something, doesn't make it fundamentally impossible to define.

The various "use your Int instead of Charisma for some skills" traits fall foul of this "half feat" definition Paizo has given.

Why yes, I'll use this trait that's far better than Skill Focus for whatever Cha-skills I need.

Its actually really useful for a group without a charisma based character, especially if they do have an intellect based one, and it has no feat equivalent. Charisma is a pretty big dump unfortunately. Does happen to open up a number of good concepts though, which is a really good use for traits I thought. Gotta' look for those ones that do more than give a +1.

Also doesn't do much if your character hasn't dumped charisma and pumped intellect. That 7 intellect 18 charisma kitsune sorcerer doesn't need it, but to be fair he's pretty enchanting.

2/5

It is a powerful trait which, along with a few others brought up, are probably out of line enough that they should not have been allowed. However, it isn't worth going back and banning them now that they have been allowed.

If any trait were to get banned I would hope for reactionary, that way I wouldn't feel like I practically have to take, or at least consider, it on every character.

With the power of traits I also feel like NPC characters need them to keep up.

Somewhat of an aside, anything that relies on an RP requirement as a limiting factor should only be carefully allowed as they do begin to have a cost on immersion. That or play into it - have a scenario where we need to investigate the great Qadiran Magi academy where we learn that all those dervish dancing shock sticks really are grown in vats and mass produced!

Silver Crusade 1/5

I'm for letting it stand. If it truly somehow becomes a problem, it is simple to take it away. Just replace it with another trait. Not something people are likely to be able to build a character around.
With traits that allow you to add 4 when aiding another, use your int instead of cha for the better part of your interaction related checks, get a class skill with bonus to two skills, become proficient with a bow and ignore first range increment penalty, and so much more; I just don't see this one breaking the game which is the only reason I see for banning things. In my opinion of course.
Certain classes, feats, spells, etc have been banned for wrecking gameplay (I have 25 celestial eagles with 3 attacks each woo hoo!!!), not playing well with campaign style (wow your "friend" is useful... Yep our partnership started after I killed him.)
I say let it run. Sarenraes shining twins we can already retrain, raise from the dead on the societies dime, play assimar/tiefling/and others with practically our choice of stat arrays...
Play whatever you want.... But if you want to have class, play chelaxian :)

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm still amazed that people feel a single reroll per day for a trait is too powerful, regardless of differing restrictions.

1/5

Kyle Baird wrote:
Reactionary: ...stuff

Well, I appreciate your attempt to be scientific about this, but your analysis suffers from some fatal flaws:

1. You ignore the most important aspect of LoC: You have to worship Chaldira. Not sure how you weigh that against having to take Greater Fortitude. But the thing that really undermines your ability to hand-waive this is that I, after having spent real money, decided the requirement to worship Chaldira was too much of a drawback. So one of the things that makes the trait less attractive, in fact, did just that.

2. You aren't really doing a "balance" comparison to other traits or other feats, you are comparing this to one feat. It's more like an obsolescence argument: This feat should be banned because it's better than this one feat if I ignore restrictions.

3. You also fail to address the obvious questions of whether IGF is just a crappy feat compared to other feats. Do you think IGF is better than Power Attack? Because if IGF is subpar, then you're advocating the banning of a trait because of some crappy feat. Not a very compelling argument.

4. Choosing a trait comes with an extra opportunity cost because in PFS, you are prevented from taking another trait in that same category. My first choice for my third trait was something in the combat category, but I couldn't take that because I had already taken Reactionary. Choosing LoC means you preclude yourself from any other Religion trait. Feats don't do that.

Dark Archive 2/5

Finlanderboy wrote:
Kyle Baird wrote:
Aaron Mayhew wrote:
now I expect to see a new cult of Caldira form up in my local PFS. Thanks guys.
Besides you and Findlanderboy, who else in our area actually reads the boards that close?
Hey what did I do? and where did that d come from?

Obviously Garble Facechomper does, and he has Chaldiran convert written all over him. But shhh. Don't bring logic into this.

Dark Archive 2/5

James McTeague wrote:
Nope. We tried throwing a save or die at it, but when it failed its save...

I can think of only one thing to post at a time like this.

Rise from your grave!

Silver Crusade 3/5

I was curious, so I did the math. This trait is most optimal when used on a saving throw which requires a natural 11 or higher on the d20. And in that case, it is precisely equivalent (before any rolls are made) to receiving a +5 bonus on a single die roll.

This may or may not change minds on the issue, but at least it makes it easier to compare to other traits.

Which is better? (a) +1 on all Will saves, or (b) +5 on a single save, once per day?

The Math:

Suppose you need to roll a natural N or higher on your d20 roll for a PASS. Then the probability of a pass is

P(PASS) = (21 - N)/20.

Now suppose you are given a bonus of +B on your roll, the probability becomes

P(PASS) = (21 - N + B)/20.

However, your friend has the trait in question, so she gets a reroll on this roll if her first roll fails. All else is equal. Her probability of passing this roll is

P(PASS) = (21 - N)/20 + (N - 1)(21 - N)/400.

(Hers is the probability that she did not need to use the reroll, plus the probability that she did use the reroll successfully.)

Now we will equate the two probabilities and solve for B, so that we can find the equivalent bonus, as a function of the natural d20 roll, N, required to get a PASS result. (I will spare you the algebra.)

B = (N - 1)(21 - N)/20

This is a quadratic (parabola) with a maximum at N = 11. When N = 11, B = 5.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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The Fox, as you say, LoC is only worth a +5 in one narrow circumstance. (Nice work with the calculations, by the way.)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Here's a modest proposal: ban all traits in PFS. Monsters and NPCs don't get them. Why should PCs? They're totally unbalanced and they give the PCs an unfair advantage. Don't bother sniping out single traits like LoC. Just blanket ban them all instead.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I play in Jax Florida with about 50 PFS players.

About 1/2 the players go for power builds.
The only character I've seen in my 14 months playing is my
Halfling who does worship Caldira.

I know that If I build a character with this trait I better have a good reason or the other players will call "Cheese".

Social pressure around here is to make characters that fit their back story, feats, classes and traits.

Happy Holidays,

Baronjett

Shadow Lodge 2/5

As overpowered as the trait seems, up here in the Twin Cities I don't believe I've seen it used. Maybe once, but I think that was something else allowing the re-roll.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

There's some gnome luck thing that allows it that I've seen. And it was fine.

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