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Lessons of Chaldira is a trait from Faiths of Purity. It's legal in Pathfinder Society, and requires the character to follow a NG deity called Chaldira Zuzaristan. It's a halfling deity, but you don't have to be a halfling to become a follower. You need to be of LG, NG, CG or N alignment, though.
Your studies of Chaldira Zuzaristan’s exploits have given you a knack for avoiding trouble. Once per day, when you fail a saving throw, you can reroll the saving throw. You must take the second result even if it is worse.
This can be compared to Improved Great Fortitude, Improved Lightning Reflexes, or Improved Iron Will. They have the same mechanics, except that Lessons of Chaldira can be used to any type of a saving throw, and can be used after a failed saving throw. Which means that it's better than any of those three feats. Traits should be as effective as half of a feat. This alone makes the trait clearly overpowered.
There's no question about the above, and should be enough of a reason to ban the feat from Pathfinder Society. The following is my evaluation of how overpowered the trait is.
Lessons of Chaldira doesn't have feat prerequirements, but you need to follow a specific deity. In my opinion these prerequirements balance each other out, give and take.
The fact that Lessons of Chaldira can be used on any saving throw makes it about as good as all three Improved saving throw feats combined. Sure, you get more rerolls with three feats, but it's highly situational when you need to use more (different types of) rerolls than 1/day. I'd say it's about as situational as how often you benefit from the ability to know whether the saving throw failed or not. Thus, IMO, Lessons of Chaldira is worth about three feats.
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while I'm not at home to be able to compare and contrast everything page to page, it sounds like to me you're asking for something to be banned that is essentially only as good as the shirt re-roll.
It's states in the text you quoted, that once per day, many scenarios only take place w/in a 24 hr game period (or the majority of the scenario).
I don't see the campaign staff banning this to be honest.
Ophelia -- I know there is a halfling luck ability that does something close, though I don't have the exact wording in front of me.
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I have to agree with Samuli. While we have other ways of getting rerolls in PFS, there's no arguing that this trait is better than several different feats of the same type.
When you have the choice between Improved Iron Will and Additional Traits to get Lessons of Chaldira AND something else, what are you going to take?
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Well wait. Isn't there a halfling racial ability called "Halfling Luck" that does the same thing?
Lucky Halfling is a feat, that requires you to be halfing, and must be used before result is revealed. You can use this 1/day on any ally within 30ft, but not on yourself. While this is certainly a powerful feat, it's still worse than Lessions of Chaldira. It has race prereq, and the result isn't revealed before you choose to use it.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It's better than the shirt re-rollin one particular: you can find out that you failed the saving throw before activating the trait. (Also, it stacks with the shirt re-roll.)
On the other hand, shirt re-rolls are more versatile (attack rolls, skill checks, etc.).
Halfling Luck is the name of the racial trait that gives halflings a +1 on all saving throws.
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First the assumption is that all characters that I could/would take one of the improved (saving throw) feats for will be a worshiper of this particular deity, or that I’ll switch my roleplay concept over to that deity just to take this trait.
Second, it isn’t better than all three combined, it is more versatile and roughly the equivalent of one of them. It is still only once per day.
Thirdly, just because those feats (and their prerequisites) suck in relation to other feats, doesn’t make the trait overpowered.
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then you will have to start looking at traits like defensive strategist, which basically gives you 3/4ths of a rogue class ability.
i'm assuming religion traits are more powerful than others because they have the additional requirement of worshiping said god (and therefore having an alignment restriction as well). that they are intended to be better than other traits(but some do seem as powerful as a full feat.)
i don't see the powers that be spending all the time required in order to go through every trait and seeing if it is too powerful or not. there are a LOT of traits.
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while I'm not at home to be able to compare and contrast everything page to page, it sounds like to me you're asking for something to be banned that is essentially only as good as the shirt re-roll.
Shirt re-rolls aren't part of Pathfinder rules. But yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Also note how this trait is more powerful than the shirt re-roll. It can be used 1/day when the shirt re-roll is only 1/session. Sure, many sessions happen during the same day, but not nearly all of them. Additionally, shirt re-roll must be used before the result is revealed.
The shirt re-roll can, of course, be used on any d20 roll. Though, in practice, I've seen it used only on failed saving throws.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Put me down on the 'ban it' section.
Race: Not an issue.
Alignment: As he points out 4 of the six allowed in PFS are allowed to take it. Clerics are the only ones who would suffer reprecussions, and even those are minor.
Power: If the original Heirloom weapon needs to be nerfed, then this needs to be. Whether you think the improved chain is 'weak' the issue is not only that this is a trait that allows a 'dial a feat' once a day, it is also more powerful than any one of the feats in that you can choose to use it *after* the result is announced. Not before.
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while I'm not at home to be able to compare and contrast everything page to page, it sounds like to me you're asking for something to be banned that is essentially only as good as the shirt re-roll.Shirt re-rolls aren't part of Pathfinder rules. But yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Also note how this trait is more powerful than the shirt re-roll. It can be used 1/day when the shirt re-roll is only 1/session. Sure, many sessions happen during the same day, but not nearly all of them. Additionally, shirt re-roll must be used before the result is revealed.
The shirt re-roll can, of course, be used on any d20 roll. Though, in practice, I've seen it used only on failed saving throws.
Actually, they are part of society rules, it is in the guide.
Honestly only in extreme circumstances do I ever see the shirt re-roll used, and I have never seen this trait come up in either local gameday play or convention play. The rare times I have seen the halfing ability come up is maybe 5 times total in almost 4 years of playing.
I don't think this trait is anything to get worked up over and I don't think we need to start instituting a policy of things being banned becuase they are more or less powerful than something else.
In other words, original issue mole hill; this thread = mountain
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The shirt re-roll can, of course, be used on any d20 roll. Though, in practice, I've seen it used only on failed saving throws.for the record, ive seen it on more attack rolls than anything else.
Mine only works on saves, Really.
I've burned it on to hit rolls twice now.
Once I rolled a 1, reroll was a 2
Then later game, same character. Rolled a 1, reroll was.... a 3.
Now when I *do* connect with the tangleburn bag, key annoyed GM and amused player.
I was going to say that it didn't sound too powerful until I noticed it was a trait, not a feat. :-/
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Is it more powerful than it should be?
Probably. Could use a bit of toning down.
Is it actually broken? I for one don't think so. It's not in any way going to break an encounter or let a PC dominate the game. At worst it keeps a PC from dying, once, since many adventures don't actually span multiple days.
The are far more problematic PC options out there, this is barely a blip on the radar. If we start banning every damn thing that is out of kilter in regards to power level with similar things, the Additional Resources document would probably quadruple in size.
-j
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I think we should refrain from being too ban-happy. It's better to not have at all than to have and take away.
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I also have never seen anyone with this feat. For all the discussion we had a few weeks ago over Defensive Strategist, I have also yet to see more than one player with it. (and I play almost weekly)
Like Netopalis and a few others mentioned, I just think the Improved Saves feats are just not that great, so this trait seems more blown out of proportion than it is.
There will always be stronger options than others, it's the nature of the game. We might as well take shortbows out, since longbows are better.
IMO it's strong, but not to the level of "everyone from now on will take it" like bracers of falcon's aim for archers.
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Wellll.... I haven't seen anyone with it.
I saw it yesterday for the first time ever as well. And when I asked about that trait from my Pathfinder veteran friends, one (out of twenty or so) knew this trait exists (and his character had it). Also, judging from this thread, a vast majority of players doesn't know such a trait existed.
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IMO it's strong, but not to the level of "everyone from now on will take it" like bracers of falcon's aim for archers.
Now that you mentioned Bracers of Falcon's Aim.
Those were banned because they were about 8k gp too cheap. If we accept that this trait is worth about 2-3 feats, it's 1½-2½ feats too cheap. The cost of a single feat in magic items is about 4-5k gp (see the arguments from the discussion around Bracers of Falcon's Aim, for example). Thus, this trait is about 6-12k too cheap. Making it on par with the banned version of Bracers of Falcon's Aim.
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Wellll.... I haven't seen anyone with it.I saw it yesterday for the first time ever as well. And when I asked about that trait from my Pathfinder veteran friends, one (out of twenty or so) knew this trait exists (and his character had it). Also, judging from this thread, a vast majority of players doesn't know such a trait existed.
So, if you've only just seen it yourself the other day, and the majority of prolific GM/players that have posted have have never or rarely seen this trait in effect. Why the push to ban it? If it isn't something that is widely affecting PFS play, what difference does it make? Is it that someone else might have taken it and would have a small miniscule perceived advantage over you? I don't get the reason for the ban request.
Linking in feats to traits is like comparing apples to prunes ... they are not the same, they do not have the same in-game flavor and they do not have the same in-game effects of implementation.
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Yeah, I live in Columbus, Ohio. So unfortunately, that's not happening. I might see you at Origins? Maybe I can get at your table. Let's just say that for about 2/5 - 1/2 of my Ohio games, my characters have just been in the way of power builds. About 2 hours in, I lose interest and just wait to collect my sheet. I was in one scenario when I just held action for the last three encounters to see if it mattered. It didn't.
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So, if you've only just seen it yourself the other day, and the majority of prolific GM/players that have posted have have never or rarely seen this trait in effect. Why the push to ban it?
Because it's important to ban things before they're used. That saves a lot of headache. That's also why Mike and his crew are checking the additional resources before making them part of PFS. Sometimes things slip through their radar, though.
Linking in feats to traits is like comparing apples to prunes ... they are not the same, they do not have the same in-game flavor and they do not have the same in-game effects of implementation.
The design principle of traits was clearly communicated. They are meant to be "half-traits". This is also clearly seen from Additional Traits feat that let's you get two traits for the price of a feat.
Ban it.
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So, if you've only just seen it yourself the other day, and the majority of prolific GM/players that have posted have have never or rarely seen this trait in effect. Why the push to ban it?Because it's important to ban things before they're used. That saves a lot of headache. That's also why Mike and his crew are checking the additional resources before making them part of PFS. Sometimes things slip through their radar, though.
If it's a trait that's been out there since almost day one (as no new traits have been added in the last 2 or 3 years unless I'm mistaken), and it's one that hardly anyone has heard of let alone used... what's the big deal. So it could be seen as a little over powered -- if it was that bad everybody would have it like what happened with Heirloom Weapon.
Again, mole hill vs. mountain... I don't see this as hugely if at all game breaking and see no reason to ban it. I've not been sufficiently convinced that it is a bad thing to have in the game.
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@PFCBG
I don't expect Mike Mark and John (hmm, we really need Mike to be a Matther, and add a Luke) to catch every broekn feat/trait/weapon/bunny that might exist in Pathfinder. But I do believe that one of the strengths of the community is being able to start a thread just like this, and bring it to the attention of TPTB. That it is in an obscure book is a merit, true. But for a save intensive build* it can be pretty curst useful, and it does appear to be pretty optimal, for a minimal investment.
As to power level how about this:
Erastil's blessing (religion) When you make a saving throw, you may choose to add a +2 trait bonus to the saving throw. This bonus remains until the next day, where you may select a new saving throw.
Is anyone going to say the above is balanced or fair? Then why is Lessons of Chaldria?
@David I feel your pain. If you've seen me play, I don't think I could make an optimized build to save my life.
*
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@PFCBG
I don't expect Mike Mark and John (hmm, we really need Mike to be a Matther, and add a Luke) to catch every broekn feat/trait/weapon/bunny that might exist in Pathfinder. But I do believe that one of the strengths of the community is being able to start a thread just like this, and bring it to the attention of TPTB. That it is in an obscure book is a merit, true. But for a save intensive build* it can be pretty curst useful, and it does appear to be pretty optimal, for a minimal investment.
As to power level how about this:
Erastil's blessing (religion) When you make a saving throw, you may choose to add a +2 trait bonus to the saving throw. This bonus remains until the next day, where you may select a new saving throw.
Is anyone going to say the above is balanced or fair? Then why is Lessons of Chaldria?
@David I feel your pain. If you've seen me play, I don't think I could make an optimized build to save my life.
*** spoiler omitted **
I don't expect them to look at every trait/feat either, after it's been released. I figure once it's release, except in rare instances, it's legal and will stay that way. Obviously we're working with the denominator of human error. However, I know that the VCs help with looking over the books, so we're talking several (close to 100 now?) sets of eyes looking at these things.
If something that is clearly broken makes it past all those eyes, then it's very cleverly broken.
That beside the point, the traits have been out since day one, with a large number of them published in the APG, there hasn't been (that I'm aware of) a new release of trits since that book came out. I'm assuming that when Mike took over that he at least gave them a cursery glance -- or had when he was a VC and deemed them appropriate.
Having things constantly being banned and being changed is only going to hurt us in the long run. If this was a trait that was over exposed and everyone and their uncle's cousins kid was using it, I could see taking a look to see why everyone was using it. However, as I stated before, this is a trait that has not seen a wide amount of use and has not been exploited for being broken. The "ban it" side can use the arguement that we should ban it before people start using if they want to. But I still don't see a problem. In my over 150 Gm'd games and countless player games I personally never saw this trait being mentioned. Others have said they hadn't hurd of this trait.
I'm sorry, but you'll not convince me that it needs to be banned on the basis that "it could be exploited".
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Yeah, I live in Columbus, Ohio. So unfortunately, that's not happening. I might see you at Origins? Maybe I can get at your table. Let's just say that for about 2/5 - 1/2 of my Ohio games, my characters have just been in the way of power builds. About 2 hours in, I lose interest and just wait to collect my sheet. I was in one scenario when I just held action for the last three encounters to see if it mattered. It didn't.Most likely you will not see me at Origins. Sorry.
But I was not sure if you understood my comment about power optimization and St Louis players. (my reply to Chris). Players here are much like players everywhere. Some are all about "power optimization", some are not. Often you get players that are both, and depending on PC and the style of play... can be both at the same time.
I'm sorry to hear you have been losing interest in the scenario, perhaps you should try a change of players/judges? if the style of play with your current group is not a good fit for you, change groups. Here (in St. Louis) that is pretty easy, as we normally have 4 to 6 tables running. Groups, morph and flux all the time. A very dianamic play environment.
I have limited schedule flexibility, unfortunately. So when I do get to play, it's an extra let down when its plainly clear that my character is more of a hindrance than a help at the table. Ie, I'm just taking up space that an optimized PC could be standing in. I'll just try to get lucky I guess at Origins in terms of tables.
@Matthew: I *know* how to make broken builds. I just don't see the point. I use all my broken building mojo for Starcraft, and let everyone play this game.
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Wellll.... I haven't seen anyone with it.I saw it yesterday for the first time ever as well. And when I asked about that trait from my Pathfinder veteran friends, one (out of twenty or so) knew this trait exists (and his character had it). Also, judging from this thread, a vast majority of players doesn't know such a trait existed.
You've seen it once, you acknowledge that most people don't know it exists, but you want it banned anyway?
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You've seen it once, you acknowledge that most people don't know it exists, but you want it banned anyway?
Exactly. As I said, it's better to ban before it's in wide use.
And this is irrelevant on the ban or not discussion, which is based on power level and thematic issues.
I trust Mike & co. to do the right thing here.
I would point out that it's not PFS's role to "balance" the game rules.
Changes from the rules as written usually only happen when something is grossly unbalanced or game breaking, or doesn't fit the organized play format.
Something this minor, is unlikely to get more than a cursory glance.
-j
All it took was a cursory glance to overturn the magical knack ban. Why can't this be overturned without much thought or debate too?!