We ran across this in our weekly game and had a bit of a disagreement on the subject of natural armor.
If I have a inherent +2 Natural armor bonus because I am a smelly lizard man and I then buy an amulet of Natural armor and take the improved natural armor feat. it all stacks together I say another player in my group says it does not stack
what I think is confusing is that is says enhancement bonuses don't stack.
but other bonuses do. for instance if you have a hat of natural armor +5 and a amulet of natural armor +1 they dont stack together. but if you are a Ghoran with +2 natural armor you would add the +5 from the hat. but not the +1 from the amulet.
correct?
where it gets confusing is when bark skin is cast and other spells that increase natural armor.
I think you have it correct. Whatever you get from the race and feat are inherent and a part of you and does stack. The amulet and hat would both be enhancement bonuses and will not stack, so you take the highest. Similarly, the enhancement from barkskin wouldn't stack and you would take it or whichever magic item gave more.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The feat Improved Natural Armor does indeed improve the base natural armor of a creature. The creature is then still fully affected by any enhancement bonus to its natural armor, such as from an amulet of natural armor.
The spell barkskin "grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus". That means it stacks with a creatures base natural armor, but not with any other enhancement bonuses it might have to its natural armor, such as from an amulet of natural armor.
So, if you are a "smelly lizard man" with a base natural armor bonus of +2 with the feat Improved Natural Armor, an amulet of natural armor +1 and the spell barkskin cast upon you, your total natural armor bonus would be:
+2 (racial)
+1 (feat)
+2 (spell)
for a total of +5. The amulet's enhancement bonus is lost because it does not stack with the spell's higher enhancement bonus.
Inherent is a different form of bonus than enhancement, so it should stack.
It is probably confusing since it wouldn't stack for a "normal" person who doesn't have an inherent NA bonus to AC.
"Inherent" is not a bonus type applicable here. There is natural armor bonus and enhancement bonus to natural armor. Think of this as the same as an armor bonus and an enhancement bonus to the armor.
SO what stacks and what doesn't? is there a list some where?
|
"A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks."
The easiest way to think about natural armor is as its own stat. Everyone has a natural armor bonus of at least 0. Many races have a larger, inherent bonus. Such as a stinky lizards Natural Armor of 2. Natural armor then can gain an enhancement bonus, just like regular armor. It is not a new source of natural armor it simply increases the natural armor you already have. Amulets provide a enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus and improved natural armor simply permanently increases it.
So short answer is yes, they all stack. And no hats, amulets or spells will stack with eachother. (not talking about polymorph here, that has different rules)
You start with the lizardfolk's +2 natural armor.
You take the feat to increase that by 1.
You put on the amulet to gain an enhancement bonus to your natural armor.
Your natural armor is now +3, and the enhancement bonus to it depends on the amulet.
Bonus type are usually worded specifically. Untyped bonuses are not common, and you should not assume that they have an implied type.
I believe Improved Natural Armor increases existing natural armor.
|
To put it even simpler, start with your +2. This is your natural armor bonus. When you take the feat, erase all memory of that +2 and just think of it as a +3. When you cast the spell, you add a +2 enhancement bonus to your +3 natural armor bonus, for a temporary total of +5.
If you ever encounter another enhancement bonus from a different source you can apply it to your base +3, but only the higher of any two enhancement bonuses will ever take effect, unless one of those two states that it stacks with other enhancement bonuses.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In this case, "natural" IS the type.
The types I can think of off the top of my head are:
armor bonus to armor class (armor, bracers of armor)
shield bonus to armor class (shield, shield spell)
deflection bonus to armor class (ring of protection, shield of faith, mage armor)
dexterity bonus to armor class (from Dex, of course)
size bonus to armor class (for those of less than Medium size, of course, this is a penalty for folks larger than Medium)
insight bonus to armor class (monks and swashbucklers?)
natural bonus to armor class (smelly lizards, amulets of natural armor)
dodge bonus to armor class (always stacks with itself, this is the exception to stacking)
profane bonus to armor class (some spells maybe?)
divine bonus to armor class (some spells maybe?)
This leaves us with the apparent source of confusion here:
The ever-popular enhancement bonus. This typically comes in three flavors.
The two most common are found through magical armor, where it is an enhancement to the armor bonus, or through magical shields, where it is an enhancement to the shield bonus.
However, you can also get an enhancement to your natural armor bonus. This is NOT a separate natural armor bonus, it is an ENHANCEMENT to your natural armor bonus. As such, TWO enhancements do not stack, you take the higher of the two, but they DO stack with other SOURCES of natural armor bonus (your own thick scaly hide, the feat improved natural armor, etc.).
Note that enhancements of the three different sources do stack. In other words an enhancement to armor bonus stacks with an enhancement to shield bonus and an enhancement to natural bonus.
The confusion likely stems from our tendency to forget that ARMOR is not armor class, it is a MODIFIER to your armor class. Similarly, NATURAL ARMOR is not armor class, it is a MODIFIER to your armor class.
As long as you think of each of the items listed up there as SOURCES of armor class, you are less likely to be confused.
I'm the player in Lobolusk's game who started this all and here's what I did:
I'm playing Balto,an awakened riding dog (natural armor 11). He's got Animal Growth cast on him ("The creature's existing natural armor bonus increases by 2") and made permanent. The size decreases AC by -1 so now I've got natural armor 12, mais non?
On top of this I've added an amulet of natural armor +3 and bracers of armor +8. I've also figured in the decreased DEX bonus.
I'm the player in Lobolusk's game who started this all and here's what I did:
I'm playing Balto,an awakened riding dog (natural armor 11). He's got Animal Growth cast on him ("The creature's existing natural armor bonus increases by 2") and made permanent. The size decreases AC by -1 so now I've got natural armor 12, mais non?
On top of this I've added an amulet of natural armor +3 and bracers of armor +8. I've also figured in the decreased DEX bonus.
No. A riding dog has a natural armour of 1. The spell increases it by 2, leaving you with a natural armour of 3. You get a Size Penalty to AC of -1, which still leaves your natural armour at 3.
EDIT: So assuming a Dex of 12 after the spell is applied, your AC would be 10 + 1 Dex + 3 Natural - 1 Size = 13 AC. With the Magic Items, it would be 10 + 1 Dex + 6 Natural + 8 Armour - 1 Size = 24 AC.