Thinking of implementing the following changes around my table. Would you use these variants?
Dagger (simple light weapon; 1d4 piercing damage; 18-20/x2 crit; 10 feet range if thrown; easily concealed)
Kukri (exotic light weapon; 1d6 slashing damage; 19-20/x3 crit)
Thinking of implementing the following changes around my table. Would you use these variants?
Dagger (simple light weapon; 1d4 piercing damage; 18-20/x2 crit; 10 feet range if thrown; easily concealed)
Kukri (exotic light weapon; 1d6 slashing damage; 19-20/x3 crit)
So you converted the Kukri into a light version of the Falcata... and a Dagger into a simple weapon with a rather nice crit range that every Knife Master Rogue would love to use without a second thought.
I wouldn't implement these changes.
So you converted the Kukri into a light version of the Falcata...
Makes sense, if you ask me. Just look at the blades. The kukri and falcata have similar bends. I also figure that the kukri is just a "exotic" as a falcata--hence the change.
and a Dagger into a simple weapon with a rather nice crit range that every Knife Master Rogue would love to use without a second thought.
Not a bad thing in my opinion.
I wouldn't implement these changes.
Fair enough.
Personally, I think 18-20/x2 is too good for a simple weapon; even if it is losing it's piercing OR slashing damage types.
Ah, it should still be slashing or piercing. That's a mistake. Your concerns are understandable, though.
You buff up the dagger and basically nerf the kukri. I don't think crit range = crit multiplier in terms of give and take. You give up a 5% chance of automatically hitting the creature and the possibility of crit damage for a a change in damage that could be as little as 1 (high strength character typically go for the two handed weapons, not the tiny ones).
My question is, WHY?
Oh, and I completely missed the kurki being an exotic weapon. That makes the least sense to me. On the whole, exotic weapons all function i na very specific way that requires specific training with that weapon alone (bastard swords and katanas are only exotic for using with one hand). Anyone who knows how to use a normal sword will know how to use a kukri.
You buff up the dagger and basically nerf the kukri. I don't think crit range = crit multiplier in terms of give and take. You give up a 5% chance of automatically hitting the creature and the possibility of crit damage for a a change in damage that could be as little as 1 (high strength character typically go for the two handed weapons, not the tiny ones).
Just a quick note, only a 20 is an auto hit. A crit threat (other than a 20) on a high range weapon is still a miss if it doesn't beat AC.
I did buff the dagger, but I don't think I nerfed the kukri. I bumped its damage dice and reduced its critical range. That'd be fine for a martial weapon, but then I went and increased its critical multiplier. That makes it exotic (in mechanical terms).
From a flavor standpoint, it was an "exotic" weapon in real life, in so far as it was used by a small sect of people in an isolated region. It's no more exotic than any other weapon, realistically. In game, I think it's odd to see such a niche weapon used so often. Every time I see an illustration for one I can't help but think, "Why?"
Further, the argument that "exotic" weapons require more training is just... not accurate. "Exotic" is a mechanical term with some semantic baggage.
My question is, WHY?
Because it makes sense to me? See my reasoning above.
With the kukri, I tried to keep it balanced.
With the dagger I stretched things a bit, but compared to other weapons, I think it looks fine. It might be a little too good for a simple weapon, but I think that's okay. Not all weapons are created equally, and a dagger is a weapon many people are going to use (even martial types). Why penalize them?
For example, virtually every two-weapon rogue uses a rapier in their mainhand and a shortsword in their offhand. The dagger would make more sense as an offhand weapon, in my opinion, but it is mechanically disadvantageous to the rogue. You sacrifice damage dice and gain nothing in return. With this variant, the dagger becomes an option. You trade some damage for a higher chance at scoring that elusive crit. Seems fair to me.
And that's really where I'm at: I like daggers. I'd like to see 'em used more often. Kukris are a bit overused. I think they should be good weapons, but not as common as daggers (like reality).
/shrug
From a flavor standpoint, it was an "exotic" weapon in real life, in so far as it was used by a small sect of people in an isolated region. It's no more exotic than any other weapon, realistically. In game, I think it's odd to see such a niche weapon used so often. Every time I see an illustration for one I can't help but think, "Why?"Further, the argument that "exotic" weapons require more training is just... not accurate. "Exotic" is a mechanical term with some semantic baggage.
Scythes were used by fewer people in combat in real life (and by that I mean 0). Does that mean it has to be an exotic weapon? Similar things can be said for picks and light throwing hammers. They are even more niche weapons than a kukri. That is not why they are chosen as martial weapons. They are martial weapons because they are handled the same way as most of the other martial weapons, and being very familiar with a few lends to proficiency with the others: a warhammer and heavy pick handle the same way, so do glaives and guisarmes. The weapons are only just different enough to be slightly different stats.
A kukri is a short slashing weapon that is shaped a little differently than most swords so it cuts deeper (mechanically expressed as increased crit range). If you are familiar with how to use a dagger, shortsword, and longsword, you aren't going to pick up a kukri and suddenly forget all of that experience.
Also, take a look at the list of Exotic weapons in the Core rulebook. All of these weapons are either:
-Very oddly shaped and thus require special training to be familiar with (gnome hooked hammer)
-to heavy for most to wield in one hand without special grip training (bastard sword, katana)
-Strike in a bizarre or unusual way that doesn't relate to other weapons (whip, sling staff)
or some combination of these. Now, tell me, aside from the belief that a kukri is too "niche" for any skilled warrior to be able to pick up and use, what about how the weapon actually functions makes it seem exotic?
Nothing.
I already explained that it was an attempt at balance (as well as consistency). Look at the falcata. It is similarly shaped as a kukri, which allows for it to cut deeper, as you've said, but it is expressed differently (19-20/x3).
Besides, if a kukri is a martial weapon, so too should the falcata be. Whilst one is an oddly shaped shortsword, the other is an oddly shaped longsword.
The only reason the kukri isn't "exotic" is because of its mechanics. When I tinkered with its mechanics, it became "exotic".
Note earlier when I stated that the kukri is "no more exotic than any other weapon, realistically".
I'm basically agreeing with you XD
Also, a bastard sword (no different than a real world longsword) and a katana are too heavy to use one-handed? What?
If i can throw it out there, nothing does what your Kukri does so it fills a niche. Your dagger isn't that overpowered, no more than a wakazashi for a ninja or the Kukri ever was. I'm okay with your variants, and I'd let someone use them and wouldn't complain if someone else at the table was using them. At worst your giving casters who get into melee and resort to a dagger a buff.
Exotic weapons are wierd I think. They're placed where they are for both fluff and mechanic reasons. This leads to weirdness like the spiked chain being an exotic weapon that no one will ever take, and the sawtooth sabres being one of the only ones you ever will.
Agreed. Exotic weapons are just weird. Like alignment, they cause all sorts of unnecessary confusion.
Agreed. Exotic weapons are just weird. Like alignment, they cause all sorts of unnecessary confusion.
You know this is crazy, but I've been told you can play the game without weapon/armor proficiencies being barred from anyone and no alignment and it will still work out just fine...
Yeah, I'm not actually a huge fan of the way weapon proficiency is handled myself. Oh well, can't change whats RAW, just what you play with. Like I said, there aren't any crazy weapon properties so this all seems okay to me.
Also, a bastard sword (no different than a real world longsword) and a katana are too heavy to use one-handed? What?
Yes. That is how they are described in the rules but it is also historically based.
A bastard sword is also known as a hand-and-a-half sword because it was designed as a midway point between a longsword and a two-handed sword, meaning it is heavier than a longsword. Wielding it effectively in one hand would require more hand strength than required for a lighter sword. The same goes for katanas. They are a lot heavier than they look, which is why most of the time you see them wielding as two-handed weapons in films except for sword draw cuts.
Though I don't necessarily agree with it, to an extent I can see the desire to change how the crit works on kukris.
The dagger I'm still confused by. Expanding it's crit range makes it significant better than it was before, better than the kukri, which did the same damage amount of damage and had the same crit range, but couldn't be thrown. It's easily the best simple weapon by a long shot now.
I just want to point out that a Real World Greatsword is usable in One-Hand. Though it does take some considerable skill.
Also Big Lemon what do you mean the Kukri lost 5% to automatically hit?
A bastard sword is also known as a hand-and-a-half sword because it was designed as a midway point between a longsword and a two-handed sword, meaning it is heavier than a longsword. Wielding it effectively in one hand would require more hand strength than required for a lighter sword. The same goes for katanas. They are a lot heavier than they look, which is why most of the time you see them wielding as two-handed weapons in films except for sword draw cuts.
Sorry, but that's just not true. The bastard sword is just a more modern name for a "hand-and-a-half" sword, or as it was more commonly known, a longsword. The bastard sword in D&D is an abstraction. It's real life analogue was the longsword. Plain and simple.
And a katana is an incredibly lightweight blade, easily used in one hand. Have you ever held one before? It's not hard XD
The dagger I'm still confused by. Expanding it's crit range makes it significant better than it was before, better than the kukri, which did the same damage amount of damage and had the same crit range, but couldn't be thrown. It's easily the best simple weapon by a long shot now.
Again, not a bad thing in my opinion. That is, assuming you want a one-handed weapon. Spears are still a choice option for two-handed fellows.
I just want to point out that a REal World Greatsword is usable in One-Hand. Though it does take some considerable skill.
Also Big Lemon what do you mean the Kukri lost 5% to automatically hit?
I realized after saying it that other tables don't necessarily play this way, but the way I was taught DnD from 3rd ed was that unconfirmed crits were stil automatic hits. This probably isn't true by RAW.
The Katana's problem is in 1H without training it is too light. A Longsword is actually a form of Greatsword/2H Sword. A Bastard Sword is more akin to a Viking Heavy Blade or a Knight's War Blade. With a Longsword(PF) being more like a Viking Broadsword or a Knight's Arming Sword.
EDIT: @Big Lemon: That is an interesting Houserule... Makes Combats a bit more deadly...
A bastard sword is also known as a hand-and-a-half sword because it was designed as a midway point between a longsword and a two-handed sword, meaning it is heavier than a longsword. Wielding it effectively in one hand would require more hand strength than required for a lighter sword. The same goes for katanas. They are a lot heavier than they look, which is why most of the time you see them wielding as two-handed weapons in films except for sword draw cuts.Sorry, but that's just not true. The bastard sword is just a more modern name for a "hand-and-a-half" sword, or as it was more commonly known, a longsword. The bastard sword in D&D is an abstraction. It's real life analogue was the longsword. Plain and simple.
And a katana is an incredibly lightweight blade, easily used in one hand. Have you ever held one before? It's not hard XD
-Mass-produced modern katanas for sword practice and display are not the same thing as the historical weapons. For one thing, they are typically not made using traditional methods (though some masters make traditional swords on commission). Regardless of weight, which I may have overestimated, the sword's length makes it difficult to wield in one hand in the same way as a shorter sword, which is why they are made with handles that accommodate two hands.
Really, though, this doesn't really matter. There was no uniform Classes of Swords throughout history. Swords were made at a variety of length and were put in categories based on ranges and given a huge number of different names. There were swords that were easily wielding in one hand, swords that could only be wielded with two, and swords that fel somewhere in between. Gygax decided to called the halfway swords Bastard swords and call the two-handed ones Greatswords instead of the myriad of other legitimate names. The fact that both of those were at one time called longswords doesn't mean that swords like bastard swords never existed.
None of this really has anything to do with the topic at hand though so...
The people wielding simple weapons are rarely going to use weapons or hit you with them. At worst you just exclude the weapons they already weren't using, which... yeah.
I don't know anything about real life swords, but dnd is definitely not real life.
The Katana's problem is in 1H without training it is too light. A Longsword is actually a form of Greatsword/2H Sword. A Bastard Sword is more akin to a Viking Heavy Blade or a Knight's War Blade. With a Longsword(PF) being more like a Viking Broadsword or a Knight's Arming Sword.
EDIT: @Big Lemon: That is an interesting Houserule... Makes Combats a bit more deadly...
It's one of several things that I never knew was a houserule until I brought it up in conversation and other people said they never played that way.
I don't think it makes combat that much more deadly. Most of the time rolling a 20 would hit whatever you were up against whether it was technically an auto-hit or not.
Weapons were also made to match certain "standards", and I use that term loosely, based on the wielder they were made for. A "War" Dagger, that is a Dagger made for fighting, was typically the length of the Wielder's Forearm with a hilt that goes from the tip of the Middle Finger to their wrist.
EDIT: Hence, why I said it makes it a bit more deadly. No where near the Deadliness of the A Song of Ice & Fire RPG. 1st Round of Combat. Critical Hit that was a Horrible Death.
1st Round of Combat. Critical Hit that was a Horrible Death.
Knife Master + Underhanded = Profit.
More of a 5 Fighting Skill & 3 Long Blade Specialty for a total of 5D+3B d6s all rolling a 6. 8 6s on a Critical Results in a Horrible Death.
Horrible Death: You kill your opponent with such force that you sicken all who witness the act. All characters (allies and enemies) that witnessed the attack must succeed on Challenging(9) Will tests or take –1D on tests for one round. For the duration of the combat, you gain a +1B on all tests.
He had 20 Health and 11 or 12 AR. Basically 20 HP & 11-12 DR with each attack dealing a set amount of damage in my Case 10 Damage on a Greatsword.
If it tells you anything Eddard Stark deals 9 Damage with Ice.
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Compact:
A weapon with the compact quality is easily concealed and retrieved. A proficient user gains a +2 to Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal such a weapon; this rises to +4 if she is wearing a cloak or similar type of baggy clothing. A ranged weapon with the compact quality may be drawn as a free action for each attack it's user makes.
I'm used to seeing daggers fluffed as whatever seems coolest or most convinient for the moment.