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Wizards usually blow fighters out of the water in pretty much every way, but for the most part they don't do it by punching opponents in the face. But Eidolons do. Unlike wizards, summoners are not only vastly more powerful than fighters but also are able to show up fighters when it comes to doing exactly the one thing fighters are meant to do.
When compared to a wizard, a fighter can at least fall back on "Well, at least I can poke things with a sword good!" Compared to an eidolon, the fighter just looks pathetic.
If you were to rate all of the classes from 1-5 stars from level 1 through level 20, the Wizard would start at 2 stars and end at 5, the fighter would start at 3 or 4 and slope down to 2 or 1, and the summoner would slide from 4 to 3. The summoner is plenty strong, particularly at lower levels where the eidolon is effectively a pocket fighter with some major customizable advantages. It doesn't hold up quite as well at top tier as the fighter, but by then the summoner himself is pulling more of the weight.
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I think Roberta hit the nail on the head. It's not that the Summoner is broken per se, it's that they shove the martial/caster disparity into everyone's faces by being casters who take over the traditional martial role.
By the same token, I'd say that a lot of the trouble with the Synthesist (aside from the archetype's rules issues) comes from the fact that the synth isn't "squishy" the way casters are traditionally supposed to be. In other words, I think one of the issues a lot of people have with the Summoner/Synthesist is that it doesn't fulfil the traditional expectations of a mage class.
Is the summoner the most powerful class? Perhaps. Does that make it broken? Maybe in the mind of some. Will my group or I ever play them as they are written? No, which was a group consensus, not just the GM laying down the law.
Why?
Because it is our opinion, when you "play" the Summoner, you are more roleplaying all of the summons, especially the eidolon, than you are the actual caster. While that is fine for some, it seems like it would be akin to choosing to play another class, and then focusing all your time on a piece of their equipment. And that is not to say, that all character classes do not pay attention to items, spells or abilities, but usually not to the degree where they seem to dominate the time away from the owner.
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We've had two campaigns where we had Summoners - in Skull n Shackles we had a Master Summoner with an eidolon who could fly and breathe eunderwater, serving as the perfect scout for our ship's pilot. In Second Darkness we actually had a brother/sister twin combo of half-elves - one was a mounted Summoner with a decidedly martial bent and one was a Master Summoner. In both campaigns they played crucial roles that the party likely could not have done without, but in both cases they did not especially outshine the other players and the players loved having them.
Truth is, I've seen cases made for pretty much every class out there being over-powered except the standard fighter, the standard Rogue and the Universal Wizard. The more specialized a class or archetype is, the more easily exploited it is, but then by the same token the more easily they are countered. Too much Summoner hate out there in my humble opinion.
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The big aspect I dislike about summoners is that they simply do not need to play nice with other party members in order to accomplish anything without trying.
They don't need protection or melee capabilities, they have an Eidolon to do that; they don't need buffs, they can cast such spells themselves; they don't need to rely on skill monkeys, with both Summoner and Eidolon combined you have essentially 6+ Int skills per level with the ability to give +8 to any one for a single evolution point; they don't need out of combat healing, they can cast heal spells themselves; and they don't even need support in diplomatic areas, since they are a Charisma based caster with plenty of skill point.
This combined with the fact that you have essentially two characters means that they do not even have to choose which of these to do on any given turn (unlike a Bard that can do a bit of everything but has to choose what to do.) A Summoner can buff and charge-pounce-full-attack all on the same turn starting at level 1.
Simply the power to do everything without focusing on any single thing is what makes them so powerful and 'broken'.
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When a character can simultaneously cast spells and also have its hired mook compete with and possibly show up the party warrior, it is actively negating someone else's fun. That I will not have in my games, period, and that is why I have permanently banned the Summoner from all my games period.
It is also why I ban Evil alignments, because to play them accurately you'd eventually have to screw other PC's because it's in your best interests at the moment.
"Homey de Clown don't play that way."
I have a player as a 4th level summoner at my table right now and so far it hasn't been much of an issue, but that might be lessened by the fact that he's an evil summoner and can't conjure up fiends willy-nilly without being arrested. The character is also trying to use a grimmoire he foudn to summon a powerful devil in order to make a deal, which may result in him becoming a serial killer and getting removed from the party, so... long term, I'm not worried.
The only full-on melee character we have in the group is the Monk, which is a class that gets outshined regularly as it is, and I'm considering changes to that one in order to level the field.
All in all, normal summoner I don't think really has any balance issues. Synthesist, on the other hand... I would only allow that with significant changes.
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So given the existence of 9th level casters do people believe that Summoners are the strongest class ? and if summoners aren't the strongest class why ban them over the 9th level casters ?
Mostly, it's a knee-jerk reaction to the way the eidolon can be customized and some bad experiences with illegal builds. A well optimized druid with a big cat companion is actually superior overall; basically, the summoner is weaker than the druid while the animal companion is weaker than the eidolon. However, the eidolon and the summoner have to share item slots (meaning they can't both benefit from an item in the neck slot, like an amulet of mighty fists/natural armor), while the druid and animal companion don't.
The synthesist is actually less problematical than the standard summoner (or a master summoner), because what you gain in toughness you more than lose in action economy. A well optimized martial character (or even a beastmorph vivisectionist alchemist) will probably be able outperform the synthesist.
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the only character that i have seen that i thought "holy crap thats broken", was a scarred witch doctor half orc.
compared to that class archetype, a summoner was a mild annoyance.
summoners are very powerful for beginning GMs, and PFS GMs (they cant really change the mod to making it more challenging). i mean they have more then a few ways of dealing with the power of the edilon.
i dont know, i like them and i think they are a little over hyped, but powerful.
RE: PFS GMs having a harder time dealing with the Eidolon: I just ran The Dalsine Affair today and my Eidolon was gone after the first combat due to having 11 CON damage. Since he had only 7 max HP after that, I made up for it in standard action summons, which the ninja was totally OK with due to flexible flanking buddies.
Sometimes, the Eidolon is a big deal. Others, not so much. You just have a lot of flexibility in regards to other facets of your character.
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Broken or awesome?
Why do we have to pick only one?
Broken or awesome?
Why do we have to pick only one?
You could go with Awesomely Broken, and use both.
In PFS games, my 4th level summoner hasn't been dominating combat, partially because charge opportunities have been lacking. Still, I've been amazed at the amount of damage the barbarian has been fishing out: all the multiple attacks the eidolon gets seem merely like more chances to miss, compared to the barbarian's single massive hit. So maybe it's a "grass is greener" situation?
Is a Sorcerer with Leadership broken?
In PFS games, my 4th level summoner hasn't been dominating combat, partially because charge opportunities have been lacking. Still, I've been amazed at the amount of damage the barbarian has been fishing out: all the multiple attacks the eidolon gets seem merely like more chances to miss, compared to the barbarian's single massive hit. So maybe it's a "grass is greener" situation?
Pure martials always jump out to an early lead in the 'awesomeness' category, but begin to fall behind during later levels. Summoners smooth that out a bit, being superior to full casters in the early going but lagging behind Fighters and Barbarians, eventually overtaking them but never quite reaching Wizardly heights at the highest levels.
Still, they're my favorite class, Summoners or Master Summoners, either one.
I used to like summoners, but the more I learn about them, the less respect I have for them. The eidolon can just do too much with the caster being able to do too much to support it.
Other classes just can't match it.
Yes and no. Sometimes, the eidolon is just as useful as an animal companion. As I mentioned above, my eidolon was completely removed from most of a scenario due to a con damage poison. The eidolon took 1 hit total.
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Better that the eidolon gets poisoned than a PC.
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Yes and no. Sometimes, the eidolon is just as useful as an animal companion. As I mentioned above, my eidolon was completely removed from most of a scenario due to a con damage poison. The eidolon took 1 hit total.I used to like summoners, but the more I learn about them, the less respect I have for them. The eidolon can just do too much with the caster being able to do too much to support it.
Other classes just can't match it.
If a PC took that con damage poison, they'd be dead. The summoner just resummons the eidolon the next day.
So sick of the Summoners are OP gripes...
-Magus can deal a ton of damage and break games where DM does but one combat a day. In that kind of game magus is full of cheese.
-In a game that the DM doesn't bother with weather and allows range, archery focused characters can be op
-In a game where the gm makes everything out doors the cavaleer can be super dominant.
-In a game low on undead witch with sleep hex can just make every encounter boring.
-In a game where the party wizard is always kind of informed on what he/she is facing the wizard is op
Name a type of group/gm I'll find a way to make it op really the summoner isn't that cheesy. At least not any more so than any other optimized character can be cheesy. Oh and I can take out the whole sum moners army with a rogue and good timing.
The synthesist summoner with 3 dump stats is verifiably broken.
Rest of it, meh.
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When a character can simultaneously cast spells and also have its hired mook compete with and possibly show up the party warrior, it is actively negating someone else's fun. That I will not have in my games, period, and that is why I have permanently banned the Summoner from all my games period.
Are you banning all other classes that can cast and engage in melee simultaneously?
You know the ones: wizard, cleric, druid, witch, magus, alchemist, ranger, inquisitor, sorcerer and paladin.
While barbarian and cavalier cannot cast, both can access full strength animal companions allowing engagement on two fronts simultaneously. Are you banning them as well?
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In PFS games, my 4th level summoner hasn't been dominating combat, partially because charge opportunities have been lacking. Still, I've been amazed at the amount of damage the barbarian has been fishing out: all the multiple attacks the eidolon gets seem merely like more chances to miss, compared to the barbarian's single massive hit. So maybe it's a "grass is greener" situation?
Nope. My experience matches yours for PFS. The fighters and barbarians routinely double the damage my summoner's eidolon does. We won't even discuss encounters with DR, where I'm useless.
the summoner is fine. it's only the master summoner that's over powered in theory and practice.
If a PC took that con damage poison, they'd be dead. The summoner just resummons the eidolon the next day.Yes and no. Sometimes, the eidolon is just as useful as an animal companion. As I mentioned above, my eidolon was completely removed from most of a scenario due to a con damage poison. The eidolon took 1 hit total.I used to like summoners, but the more I learn about them, the less respect I have for them. The eidolon can just do too much with the caster being able to do too much to support it.
Other classes just can't match it.
The eidolon has 13 CON. For reference, I have precisely 1 character that would be dead from that and the summoner is not it. A character in the scenario took almost as much (8 CON damage) with comparable CON score (12), but was able to snag 2 Lesser Restorations before the final encounter, only one of which was before the 2nd encounter. He still frontlined them both.
By contrast, the 2nd level Wizard was attacked precisely zero times and the 3rd level Sorceror/Oracle was attacked twice because of pre-combat positioning.
When a character can simultaneously cast spells and also have its hired mook compete with and possibly show up the party warrior, it is actively negating someone else's fun. That I will not have in my games, period, and that is why I have permanently banned the Summoner from all my games period.Are you banning all other classes that can cast and engage in melee simultaneously?
You know the ones: wizard, cleric, druid, witch, magus, alchemist, ranger, inquisitor, sorcerer and paladin.
While barbarian and cavalier cannot cast, both can access full strength animal companions allowing engagement on two fronts simultaneously. Are you banning them as well?
I have never, ever seen any of those classes manage to cast spells and fight in the same round, with the possible exception of Quicken Spell which is prohibitively expensive.
Use your head.
When a character can simultaneously cast spells and also have its hired mook compete with and possibly show up the party warrior, it is actively negating someone else's fun. That I will not have in my games, period, and that is why I have permanently banned the Summoner from all my games period.Are you banning all other classes that can cast and engage in melee simultaneously?
You know the ones: wizard, cleric, druid, witch, magus, alchemist, ranger, inquisitor, sorcerer and paladin.
While barbarian and cavalier cannot cast, both can access full strength animal companions allowing engagement on two fronts simultaneously. Are you banning them as well?
I have never, ever seen any of those classes manage to cast spells and fight in the same round, with the possible exception of Quicken Spell which is prohibitively expensive.
Use your head.
You have never seen a druid cast a spell and have his cat pounce on someone in the same round? You have never seen a magus use its primary class feature (spell combat)?
The problem with the summoner is not that is too powerful, in the general sense, it is that it is too customizable. Summoners come out hyper optimized with little to now effort, because you can choose so much. Most classes have some of their 'stuff' or 'power' diverted into sort of side projects. A druid has wild empathy/woodland stried/etc, and his animal companion might be chosen for flavor instead of power (thus not a pouncing cat or dinosaur). The summoner on the other hand, chooses just about everything the class gets or can do, and its very easy to just pick the powerful stuff.
Basically what needs to happen is some of the summoners 'stuff' in particular evolutions, need to be diverted away from power. If you make the effot to build a more balanced eidolon, the class is actually pretty ok (assuming again that you are willing to accept the druid). Really evolutions should be diverted in to 3 categories, combat offense, combat defense, and other. And you should be required to split your evolution points between them. If a summoner had to spend a third of his evolution points on things like blindsense skilled and gills it wouldnt be a problem.
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Unlike wizards, summoners are not only vastly more powerful than fighters but also are able to show up fighters when it comes to doing exactly the one thing fighters are meant to do.
In my experience I've never seen a summoner even remotely close to competing with an optimized fighter or barbarian. It's not a bad class (though I feel it is extremely one dimensional), but nor is it overpowered in my experience.
Your mileage my vary. I have an extremely talented GM.
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You have never seen a druid cast a spell and have his cat pounce on someone in the same round? You have never seen a magus use its primary class feature (spell combat)?The problem with the summoner is not that is too powerful, in the general sense, it is that it is too customizable. Summoners come out hyper optimized with little to now effort, because you can choose so much. Most classes have some of their 'stuff' or 'power' diverted into sort of side projects. A druid has wild empathy/woodland stried/etc, and his animal companion might be chosen for flavor instead of power (thus not a pouncing cat or dinosaur). The summoner on the other hand, chooses just about everything the class gets or can do, and its very easy to just pick the powerful stuff.
Basically what needs to happen is some of the summoners 'stuff' in particular evolutions, need to be diverted away from power. If you make the effot to build a more balanced eidolon, the class is actually pretty ok (assuming again that you are willing to accept the druid). Really evolutions should be diverted in to...
Nope. The eidolon IS too powerful, when it can show up the party warrior time after time, and since it can be resummoned daily, that means things like poisons, diseases etc mean nothing. It creates a suicidal monster that is actually better than the party combat wombat. Now, that's not even taking into account being able to totally redesign the monster upon leveling.
Those animal helpers the Druid has? Relatively speaking, they are chump change.
Unlike wizards, summoners are not only vastly more powerful than fighters but also are able to show up fighters when it comes to doing exactly the one thing fighters are meant to do.In my experience I've never seen a summoner even remotely close to competing with an optimized fighter or barbarian. It's not a bad class (though I feel it is extremely one dimensional), but nor is it overpowered in my experience.
Your mileage my vary. I have an extremely talented GM.
Can't stand "optimized" ANYTHING. Too many glass cannons. They die way too easily.
Can't stand "optimized" ANYTHING. Too many glass cannons. They die way too easily.Unlike wizards, summoners are not only vastly more powerful than fighters but also are able to show up fighters when it comes to doing exactly the one thing fighters are meant to do.In my experience I've never seen a summoner even remotely close to competing with an optimized fighter or barbarian. It's not a bad class (though I feel it is extremely one dimensional), but nor is it overpowered in my experience.
Your mileage my vary. I have an extremely talented GM.
Your point, Ashiel?
Your point, Ashiel?
That optimization has nothing to do with glass cannons and glass cannons have nothing to do with optimization. The two only coincide when your optimizing to be a glass cannon.
Piccolo, how about instead of theory crafting, you post some builds. Pick any level you want and we'll do the math against a few common enemies of that CR. We'll see how your builds perform against a few of ours. If the summoner is overpowered, it should be pretty easy to spot by measuring the differences in probability.
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Any decently built archer fighter will make toast out of a summoner.
An eidolon is cool and all but it's too reliant on the summoner and it's damage isn't as consistent as that of the fighter or barbarian.
I've been in several games where the eidolon was ignored and the enemies went straight for the summoner.
And stop trying to take pot shots at the fighter because who is better is purely subjective.
Too many opinions trying to pass off as fact here.
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I have never, ever seen any of those classes manage to cast spells and fight in the same round, with the possible exception of Quicken Spell which is prohibitively expensive.
Use your head.
You've never seen a Wizard or Cleric use a summons, then cast? A Druid use an Animal Companion and cast? Did they cast a Summon Monster and then sit back and watch. Do Druids in your game bring popcorn to watch their companions kill stuff? How about an Evangelical Cleric with the Animal Domain? Which at later levels can buff, cast and have the animal charge in the same round...
That is not to say you shouldn't ban it. It is a complicated class, and keeping things simple is a decent enough motivation. . . Whole game systems have been built and enjoyed with that very thought.
As for the power level of the summoner. . . It has some decent power no doubt. When I was comparing it to my Evangelical Cleric mentioned earlier (doing all those tiresome dps calcs) I found the Summoner and Friend made a good showing. . . but didn't quite match it. Likewise when comparing the Summoner with a DPS fighter build. . . There are some threads dedicated to DPS builds, by all means compare for yourself.
In spellcasting the Summoner serves a few basic roles.. . that of the Summoner (obviously), and the Strategist( and a bit of the Booster). Why does that bear mentioning? The OP mentioned dominate monster. . . which is a good example of the Ivory Tower nature of this class. You can choose Dominate, but with the -3 DC, the need for decent con to survive early battles (Summoner=Glass Cannon), and the class's dependence on the conjuration school make Dominate a poor choice. Mass Charm Monster will be a far better choice, as your very hit/miss DCs will still affect Someone. This encapsulates most of the summoner in a nutshell. On first glance abilities look awesome, but when taken in context become much less so.
Powerful certainly. . . but if its level of power is ban worthy than there are at...
Unless you use Quicken Spell, like was mentioned, then a Wizard or Cleric won't be using Summon Monster and casting a spell in the same round because they are full round action spells.
Sure, effectively Cleric only, but it works.
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Can't stand "optimized" ANYTHING. Too many glass cannons. They die way too easily.Unlike wizards, summoners are not only vastly more powerful than fighters but also are able to show up fighters when it comes to doing exactly the one thing fighters are meant to do.In my experience I've never seen a summoner even remotely close to competing with an optimized fighter or barbarian. It's not a bad class (though I feel it is extremely one dimensional), but nor is it overpowered in my experience.
Your mileage my vary. I have an extremely talented GM.
And here is your problem, you dont deliberately optimize. Which is fine ofcourse. But the reality is that an optimized druids animal companion can ALSO show up the party's fighter if they too are not optimized. The summoner is just really really easy to optimize because the choices are so obvious. If the eidolon isnt given as many attacks as it can hold, made larger, stronger and deal energy damage with each attack, it wont show up the party fighter either. Its very easy to make an eidolon that is all utility and barely fights, but no one seems to consider that when they are dealing with a non-optimized party.
Can't stand "optimized" ANYTHING. Too many glass cannons. They die way too easily.And here is your problem, you dont deliberately optimize. Which is fine ofcourse. But the reality is that an optimized druids animal companion can ALSO show up the party's fighter if they too are not optimized. The summoner is just really really easy to optimize because the choices are so obvious. If the eidolon isnt given as many attacks as it can hold, made larger, stronger and deal energy damage with each attack, it wont show up the party fighter either. Its very easy to make an eidolon that is all utility and barely fights, but no one seems to consider that when they are dealing with a non-optimized party.
"And here is your problem," Optimization should take place not between a PC and some grand design intent on "winning" but instead on what you face in game. I've noted time and again that if a player takes their PC, and crafts it to match what's happening in game, they end up having a LOT of fun.
Really wish I could run some of you "optimizers" in a few of my encounters. I'm betting I'd watch you fall apart. It's not about beating one or two encounters, it's about surviving and protecting your buddies over the long haul.
And here is your problem, you dont deliberately optimize. Which is fine ofcourse. But the reality is that an optimized druids animal companion can ALSO show up the party's fighter if they too are not optimized. The summoner is just really really easy to optimize because the choices are so obvious. If the eidolon isnt given as many attacks as it can hold, made larger, stronger and deal energy damage with each attack, it wont show up the party fighter either. Its very easy to make an eidolon that is all utility and barely fights, but no one seems to consider that when they are dealing with a non-optimized party.
"And here is your problem," Optimization should take place not between a PC and some grand design intent on "winning" but instead on what you face in game. I've noted time and again that if a player takes their PC, and crafts it to match what's happening in game, they end up having a LOT of fun.
Really wish I could run some of you "optimizers" in a few of my encounters. I'm betting I'd watch you fall apart. It's not about beating one or two encounters, it's about surviving and protecting your buddies over the long haul.
Interestingly, I agree, but the larger point I was making is that arguments to the effect of "the summoner blows away the fighter" don't really hold any water with me.
The summoner, perhaps more than any other class, is as powerful as you want to build it. If someone builds one in the most powerful way it is entirely possible to show up a poorly built fighter. That does not mean that the fighter is bad or the summoner is too good. It means that one character is optimized and another is not. The same is true when people argue a summoner can solo entire encounters by himself or blows away the expected numbers for level. That can be done with any class. The fact that it is easier with one than another does not change the fact that it is a choice.