Summoner: Broken or Awesome


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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ericthetolle wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Cpt.Caine wrote:
ericthetolle wrote:

Aww, is the fighter feeling outmatched and underpowered?

My mage astral projects from his private dimension, casts Time Stop, Gates in four Solars, casts Bigby's Middle Finger at the fighter, and leaves to do something more interesting.

So you were talking about Summoners being broken? Please continue.

Seriously, the problem as always, isn't that commoners are overpowered our unbalanced. The problem lies with fighters and rogues.

+1 internets to you sir.

Well said.

You do realize he had to use 6 9th level spell slots AND break the rules 4 times to pull that of, right?

*handwave* custom designed spells or something. Or, tell me what rules I broke, and I'll do something else. It's a wizard. They always have something else.

The real point, is that after a certain point, fighters are pretty much useless for anything other than having Dominate Person cast on them so they'll attack their own party. So comparing an actual competent class to a fighter is unfair.

there are a wide varity of opponents wizards are very weak against. from high level monks(there is a great thread about a player trying to figure out how to have his wizard take out a party monk for a plot line, so far no luck), golems, high sr creatures et al. this is true for most classes, save the master summoner, they don't really have any weaknesses. save for a party to give them buffer before they take over an encounter regardless of the enemy.


ikarinokami - I am rather confused as to how any of those situations pose even a remote concern to a high level wizard. I mean where are his Simulacrum copies of himself? Lazing around? What about his Bloody Skeleton Pit Fiends? They busy murdering a dragon or something? Did the wizard run out of pools of lava/acid or shrunken boulders to drop on their head from Shrink Item? Did the Wizard roll extremely poorly on his SR check? I mean sure it could happen but what are the odds he can't overcome his CL+10 with no difficulties?

And lets be honest here, what wizard is actually in harms way at high levels? No Project image? Didn't feel like Astral Projecting? Couldn't be bothered to go Ethereal? Lets say the Wizard somehow manages to die (probably of liver poisoning). What high level wizard can't die 8 times before breakfast as a minor inconvenience? I mean sure you'll have to wait a bit on making some more clones, but who doesn't make them in batches of 8?

If you are feeling especially death prone make 4 on your free bonus days you get on your double time Demiplane you made with Create Greater Demiplane. Hell your clones will even be ready extra fast! Might as well prepare a full set of explosive runes... may need tactical nukes at some point (deliver via Time Stop and fail to Dispel Magic with a low caster level wand, laughing manically not required but it helps sell the image). I mean this stuff is free thanks to Blood Money so no need to even mark your WBL tab.

Could you explain the above problems more specifically cause I just don't see the issue.

Seriously.... I'm just not seeing it.


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It's not the fact the wizard is in danger its the fact he can contribute little if anything to the resolution of the encounter save for buffing. The master summoner can dominate any encounter regardless of creature type.


What creature type is immune to damage? Your Bloody Skeletons and Ni number of copies should be able to deal tons of damage. I mean sure the wizard could buff everyone, but why bother? One of his copies could do it while he just chills out of harms way, maybe tossing a debuff here or there or maybe if he feels like it dropping a tactical explosive rune nuke personally. I can't think of any encounter that could possibly have a favorable match up against that.


Wizard are near useless against golems, monks not to mention creatures with high Sr for which they are quite a lot in the beastiers.

It is a well established that wizards suck at damage. Creatures that can resist or overcome control effects are a nightmare for wizards


@Anzyr : we got it, your wizards have at-will high level abilities. It is not the case for most wizards.

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I mean where are his Simulacrum copies of himself?

Where did you get the money ? I mean, you have all spells, so your spellbooks (you should have a dozen in order to be sure) should cost... I don't know... 400000gp maybe ? And I'm not accounting for wards for those books.

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What about his Bloody Skeleton Pit Fiends?

A CR 9 skeleton without any abilities except smashing thing with its claws. Whaou, such a mess for a dragon... The fact that it regenerates does not compensate for its weaknesses.

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Did the wizard run out of pools of lava/acid or shrunken boulders to drop on their head from Shrink Item?

With the changes made to falling objects damages, a creature its CR will laugh. Lava and acid are so previous level.

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Did the Wizard roll extremely poorly on his SR check? I mean sure it could happen but what are the odds he can't overcome his CL+10 with no difficulties?

The fact that SR makes you lose some spells is lousy (1/10 chance of losing one is still 1/10 chance of losing one). SR IS a big deal for a wizard.

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No Project image? Didn't feel like Astral Projecting? Couldn't be bothered to go Ethereal?

The caster tends to be at least as pissed by those as the enemies.

What high level wizard can't die 8 times before breakfast as a minor inconvenience? I mean sure you'll have to wait a bit on making some more clones, but who doesn't make them in batches of 8?

They're not in the same place, aren't they ? So you will need additionnal spells (permanent ones obviously) to protect them. Oh, wait, did you use that much money with your spellbooks ? And your magic gear ?

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Might as well prepare a full set of explosive runes... may need tactical nukes at some point (deliver via Time Stop and fail to Dispel Magic with a low caster level wand, laughing manically not required but it helps sell the image)

By the way, the trick with Explosive runes doesn't work : you ALWAYS succeed at dispelling your spells. Even if it was not the case, only one rune would explode (dispel magic only target one rune and dispel one spell), and by exploding, it will destroy the other runes (not trigger them). So it doesn't work. And no, you can't read several runes at a time, so it won't even work that way.


Pools of lava are SR: No... Your skeletons are SR: No... My initial post really adequately addressed all these supposed issues. I don't see how the Summoner can compare to Ni Simulacrums and a group of Bloody Skeletons, seems like it'd be weak, even before taking into account that the wizard could bother to start using his spells slots for summons himself were he so inclined.

You keep mentioning SR like it matters which I find bizarre considering all the SR: No spells, minions, summons and the fact that Caster Level + 10 is easy for a wizard to hit.

Avh: Blood Money takes care of all the costs brother, preach it! Also, if you want to be that way about the Explosive Runes, I can just have a copy do it.


Not sure what game your playing but SR is a big deal. I didn't even mention the new creatures in the inner sea bestiary that are nearly magic immune.


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Pools of lave are SR: No...

They have Fire resistance. So it will sucks with almost every creature at this level. The same goes for acid.

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Your skeletons are SR: No...

No, they have to attack things that have RD. Even RD/magic is too powerful for them, and they lose ALL powers and feats.

So, yeah, skeletons suck.

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I don't see how the Summoner can compare to Ni Simulacrums and a group of Bloody Skeletons

The summoner have simulacrums too. And he have his Eidolon, and his summons (which lasts longer than the wizard's). He also have planar binding by the way.

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You keep mentioning SR like it matters which I find bizarre considering all the SR: No spells, minions, summons and the fact that Caster Level + 10 is easy for a wizard to hit.

For a creature which is your average CR, its SR will be your CL +10.

If you have Spell penetration (and greater), you will succeed on a 6. It means that you will lose 1/4 of your spells AND 1/4 of your actions.
I'm not even comparing with creatures that are above your CL (which is common at those levels).

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Avh: Blood Money takes care of all the costs brother, preach it! Also, if you want to be that way about the Explosive Runes, I can just have a copy do it.

Blood money works for components, okay.

But even if you orders a copy to do it, it will still triggers one rune, not all of them. So much work for 6d6 damage.


ikarinokami wrote:
Wizard are near useless against golems, monks not to mention creatures with high Sr for which they are quite a lot in the beastiers.

There are plenty of spells that bypass or are not effected by spell resistance (Like a lot of the conjuration school).

Even when SR is an issue you have the spell penetration feats, other bonuses like the Elven racial boost to spell penetration, and any effect/item that boosts your caster level (such as an orange prism ioun stone). I'm no wizard expert, but getting enough boosts to make SR trivial to overcome seems pretty easy.


Avh: You are quite correct that Acid or Lava is not a terrible threat to resistant creatures sure, but it nonetheless gives you incredible versatility. And that's really a solution for golems ,which will almost certainly take full from one of the two. (And it doesn't even touch the fact that you can have multiple of those, I mean what else are you doing with your free spell prep days when you chill in your demiplane?)

Next, sure a summoner has those spells, but they get them slower and even more limited than the wizard, plus they don't get the fun toys to use them like the aforementioned Blood Money and he never gets free skeletons. On the skeleton issue you are severely underestimating what a 20 HD skeleton is capable of, don't forget they retain weapon proficiencies and that Magic Weapon, Greater is a low level wizard spell that you should be able to make last at least 2 days. (Seriously these will deal way more damage then you give them credit for, 3 20HD Bloody skeletons will make equal CR challenges cry.)

On the SR issue: I said a wizard could routinely make CL + 10 I didn't mean on a 6, I meant on a 1. If you can't do that I'd be embarrassed to be Wizard you know?

Components are the cost for all the relevant spells I've mentioned, so ya... Blood Money does work.

I'll admit you are correct on the explosive rune and dispel magic, guess I have to sacrifice a copy by having it read each one manually.... no big deal though, the copy is easily replaceable.

The thing about all this is... there's tons of other stuff that can be done this is really just basic Wizard 101 stuff you know?


Most people do not have pitfiend skeletons laying about though, personally I am sure to just ban most ludicrous stuff.
Like the blood money spell, like conjuration ignoring SR, tend to give golems a hardness rating rather than DR since it makes more sense, the trouble with wizards is mostly that GMs are afraid to house rule.

None of this is really the issue here though, summoners can do a lot of the stuff wizards do, and all the stuff warriors do with better action economy, bards are about as powerful and likewise not comparable to wizards but they share their buffs with the party and lets them shine, the summoner is a class that can solo and does not really need others, since it can cover all roles to some extent.


Can we stop with the shroedingers wizard that has it's DM around it's finger for endless Pit Fiend supply?

I mean we could pick apart these supposed wizard strategies and tell why they won't work (as two examples: 1. to get pit fiend corpses even remotely easily you'd have to Gate them in with a level 20 caster and then kill them, which means the legions of hell will be after you with a fairly larger army than you can handle, and in addition the skeletons won't even fly making them useless at high levels. 2. dropping a pool of lava on someone will deal at most 10d6 damage (and that's a colossal pool of lava, how you get to drop that I don't know) and requires both favorable DM interpretation of the rules and that the target fails a DC15 save or it takes half damage.). But why bother with that in a summoner thread?

These shroedingers wizard proponents come around once in a while and put forth dozens of tactics, most which won't even have a chance of working or that are completely illegal by the rules, and for each you pick apart they just go "well I wouldn't have done that then, I would've done this instead!" putting forth another list.

If you want to debunk a shroedinger's wizard, you have to work 10 times as hard as the proponent as ze never actually tries to prove why a tactic would work or is legal, they just throw out so many you can't keep up.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
ikarinokami wrote:
Wizard are near useless against golems, monks not to mention creatures with high Sr for which they are quite a lot in the beastiers.

There are plenty of spells that bypass or are not effected by spell resistance (Like a lot of the conjuration school).

Even when SR is an issue you have the spell penetration feats, other bonuses like the Elven racial boost to spell penetration, and any effect/item that boosts your caster level (such as an orange prism ioun stone). I'm no wizard expert, but getting enough boosts to make SR trivial to overcome seems pretty easy.

The issue is not that wizards are weak or incapble, they are not. Wizards are one of the strongest classes.

Wizards however are not in the same league as the master summoner is the issue. The master summoner eventually can handle any encounter any kinds of monster. The only reason a master summoner needs a party is to buy time.

My reasoning for the master summoner being close to broken or broken is that unlitamtely the class doesnt really need anyone, there really isnt a situtation it can be placed in, where it has a disadvantage. i consider this close to broken, because this is a team game based around interdependence, where every other class, does have holes in their game which is something the master summoner eschews.


Ilja wrote:

Can we stop with the shroedingers wizard that has it's DM around it's finger for endless Pit Fiend supply?

I mean we could pick apart these supposed wizard strategies and tell why they won't work (as two examples: 1. to get pit fiend corpses even remotely easily you'd have to Gate them in with a level 20 caster and then kill them, which means the legions of hell will be after you with a fairly larger army than you can handle, and in addition the skeletons won't even fly making them useless at high levels. 2. dropping a pool of lava on someone will deal at most 10d6 damage (and that's a colossal pool of lava, how you get to drop that I don't know) and requires both favorable DM interpretation of the rules and that the target fails a DC15 save or it takes half damage.). But why bother with that in a summoner thread?

These shroedingers wizard proponents come around once in a while and put forth dozens of tactics, most which won't even have a chance of working or that are completely illegal by the rules, and for each you pick apart they just go "well I wouldn't have done that then, I would've done this instead!" putting forth another list.

If you want to debunk a shroedinger's wizard, you have to work 10 times as hard as the proponent as ze never actually tries to prove why a tactic would work or is legal, they just throw out so many you can't keep up.

Alright, first of all I'm not talking about a Schrodinger's wizard, so you don't get to go "LOL Schrodinger's wizard" and dismiss my tactics. These only require a few simple spells and if you want me to drop a list I'd be more than happy to. You yourself readily admitted that in fact a Wizard can gate in Pit Fiends (there's tons of ways to kill them at that point but if I have to detail that as well just ask). So if desired a Wizard through their class features can in fact access Pit Fiends to make into skeletons.

Now you would claim that this would result in retaliation on the Wizard and that is outside the written rules, so you are talking about something that cannot be discussed easily on here, but assuming you would rule that way there are other options such as using a Balor instead (if you want to seriously tell me Balors are organized enough or concerned enough to care about some of their kind going missing I call shenanigans). This does not require a "DM around it's finger" it requires using your class features. The overall point is that 3 20HD skeletons minions should not be overlooked as an effective means of dealing with enemies especially if you give them a few long lasting buffs (see Magic Weapon, Greater).

Next, the Shrink Item pool of lava/acid is again, strictly for use against things that are actually magic immune, since as stated above, SR is a non-issue spells with SR: Yes can be used against anything that is remotely appropriate (Caster Level +10 is easy mode and not many things can out SR that). The rules I'm using will be quoted below so don't go claiming I won't back my tactics.

"Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round."

Now the key wording here is immersion dealing 20d6 damage. Now how do I get immersion? Lets look at Shrink Item:

"You are able to shrink one non-magical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass)."

So we can get 4,000 5ft. cubes of lave to Shrink down to 1 5ft. cube of lava. Now carrying around a 5ft cube would be obviously... ridiculous. So lets cut that down to a 1.25 ft cube and settle for only 1000 5ft cubes of lava. Now, the Reflex save your quoting is only if you are dropping an item *on* someone. I'm not. I'm place the item next to them (it could even be an adjacent square) and using the command word to expand it. If you want to argue that having 1000 5ft cubes pop into existence next to you is not full immersion I'm very curious what you would call it.

Moving on to Explosive Runes tactical nukes, lets take a look at the rules:

"You trace mystic runes upon a book, map, scroll, or similar object bearing written information. The explosive runes detonate when read, dealing 6d6 points of force damage. Anyone next to the explosive runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the explosive runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage. The object on which the explosive runes were written also takes full damage (no saving throw)."

Now there's a few ways we can deliver multiple 6d6 force damage with no saving throw. Lets look at what we have to do to deny a saving throw; We have to get the person "next to the explosive runes" which is "close enough to read them". We're going to need to use a Simulacrum to trigger them (since our skeletons can't read), but we could use a summon if we're feeling cheap (even though our Simulacrum copies of ourselves are free thanks to Blood Money, so really... they are expendable). A time stop will easily give you enough time to surround the target with multiple runes (they are SR: Yes, but as covered above that is a non-issue unless the target is Magic Immune) and then all you need is someone to read each one of them. So this tactic deals 6d6 x the number of runes your reader can survive (so summons are probably best for this in retrospect), more damage if your willing to prepare metamagic version (your Simulacrum copies have access to the spell to so you should make plenty on your free casting days).

These strategies are very general. They can be used separately or all together. They are not being made up on the spot to counter something. There are very few things that can survive a wizard with access to these and since these can be prepared the day (or many days) before you adventure, the impact on a Wizards spells per day is minimal (the biggest cost being needing to prepare 2 Plane Shifts, one to leave your demiplane and one to return).

The point of this Ilja, is to demonstrate that Wizards are much stronger than Summoners, Master Summoners, Synthesists and thus demonstrate that Summoners are not "Broken" and therefore worthy of a ban, unless those same people are willing to ban Wizards, who through Animate Dead and Blood Money Simulacrums can replace an entire party much easier.

Please keep in mind that I'm using Simulacrum "as intended". I'm not using it to get SLA's off half-HD creatures, I'm only using it to make copies of my Wizard. If you want to go outside that this spell becomes much stronger, but that would cross into a murky area and I'm unwilling to do that.

Finally, ikarinokami the Wizard has less need of a party than the Master Summoner, if your still unclear why after reading this post just ask and I'll clear it up.


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in fact a Wizard can gate in Pit Fiends

Yes, you can. But you will also pay 10000gp for each couple pit fiends. And your skeletons will still sucks. Gating 2 pit fiends is actually a better deal than gating 2 pit fiends, kill them and reanimate them in blood skeletons.

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Now you would claim that this would result in retaliation on the Wizard and that is outside the written rules, so you are talking about something that cannot be discussed easily on here, but assuming you would rule that way there are other options such as using a Balor instead (if you want to seriously tell me Balors are organized enough or concerned enough to care about some of their kind going missing I call shenanigans).

It's not written in the rules, and neither the fact that you go to jail if you kill a peasant. It's written in the world consistency.

You are aware that Pit fiends and Balor are the generals of Infernal/abyssal armies, in direct orders from the archdevils... aren't you ? So yeah, any DM who cares about world consistency will make his archdevils retaliate. And it's fair.

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So we can get 4,000 5ft. cubes of lave to Shrink down to 1 5ft. cube of lava. Now carrying around a 5ft cube would be obviously... ridiculous. So lets cut that down to a 1.25 ft cube and settle for only 1000 5ft cubes of lava.

Actually, a caster with CL 20 can affect an object which is smaller than ~4ft x 4ft x 3ft (48 cu ft, for someone CL 24) before reducing it. So, you will have a pool of lava which is not even sufficient to make a bath for someone (and it will extend in the room). And dispelling it costs a standard action, so having lots of them is not going to help.

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So this tactic deals 6d6 x the number of runes your reader can survive (so summons are probably best for this in retrospect), more damage if your willing to prepare metamagic version (your Simulacrum copies have access to the spell to so you should make plenty on your free casting days).

No : enough to destroy the object the runes are on. At most, it will take 2 bombs, unless if you are using very sturdy objects (such as magic armors).

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I mean, for a wizard with unlimited wealth like you use, you could have made a robe with several permanent "symbol" spells on it, and open your cloak when you are in combat mode (free action => the symbols are revealed => many Saves or several bad effects happens, and, well, its free once you have cast it). You can even get a ring of counterspells (dispel magic) in order to be sure that your symbols will not be dispelled.

Contingency is pretty good too : combined with a teleport, or with a great protection spell, you're ready to go on pretty much any adventures.

Planar binding is so powerful it's insane (the summoner has access to this one though). Gate is very costly for its effect IMO, for little advantage over greater planar binding.


I am not using unlimited wealth, I have no idea where you are getting that from. I have state numerous times that I'm using Blood Money to remove costs of spells. Let's look at some costs.

Even valuable components worth more than 1 gp can be created, but creating such material components requires an additional cost of 1 point of Strength damage, plus a further point of damage for every full 500 gp of the component's value (so a component worth 500–999 gp costs a total of 2 points, 1,000–1,500 costs 3, etc.).

So to get 5,000 gp in free materials need for our simulacrums, we only need to take 10 points of Strength damage. This amount will also cover us for 20 HD Skeletons. 5,000 GP worth of free components also lets us maintain quite the list of Permanency spells for no cost. The Symbol Line has a low point of 10k Permanency cost, so feel free to Blood Money up a few of these for only 20 STR damage (21 STR is easy to hit) You mentioned contingency, which makes me think you need to reread how focuses work. Contingency has a 1 time cost of 1,500 gp so yes you should be using Contingency.

Next, Demons like Balors may fight in the blood war, but the demon side of that is by no means organized. Balors have no reason to care what happens to another Balor other than that now they have one less rival. To assume that a bunch of demons would organize and go hunt a powerful wizard without getting a bigger, meaner demon to bully them is completely out of character and would be world inconsistent. Again, this is outside the rules, so attempting to adjudicate it is difficult, but the crux is that Wizard can get the bodies he needs (which with Bloody skeletons is a one time cost as you said its possible to get 2, so a minor investment of 20k since this cannot be covered by Blood Money without a STR of 41). Seriously though do all planar creatures in your campaign hunt down adventuring groups who kill them cause this seems like a problem everyone will have...

On the Shrink Item - Fair enough, the amount will not be enough to create immersion, I'll concede this tactic, though you are incorrect about it needing a standard action to dispel. It merely requires a command word, or simply being thrown at a solid surface.

"Energy attacks deal half damage to most objects. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the object's hardness."

So even before we calculate hardness or apply damage to an object, we divide 6d6 (Average 18) by half (Average 9). Ordinarly iron has a hardness of 10 meaning most of the time it will take no damage, furthermore even on the off chance it does, Iron has 30 hit points per inch of thickness. If you put your explosive runes on 1 in iron... you should be able to set off as many as the summoned creature can survive.


The only reference for command words in the rules, except for Shrink item :

PRD paizo wrote:

Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed.

A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

And the standard rules for dismissible spells :

PRD paizo wrote:
(D) Dismissible: If the duration line ends with “(D),” you can dismiss the spell at will. You must be within range of the spell's effect and must speak words of dismissal, which are usually a modified form of the spell's verbal component. If the spell has no verbal component, you can dismiss the effect with a gesture. Dismissing a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Seems pretty clear to me.

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Next, Demons like Balors may fight in the blood war, but the demon side of that is by no means organized

One balor is no big deal, 2 are not a problem, several means you have at least a great chance of having summoned one of the balors under direct order of a greater demons (and even if they are not organized, they will ask for retribution to their followers).

I mean, you may be very chaotic and want to keep your soldiers for you, not for a mere mortal who tries to play god with outsider essence.

By doing so, you might even upset some inevitable.

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The Symbol Line has a low point of 10k Permanency cost, so feel free to Blood Money up a few of these for only 20 STR damage (21 STR is easy to hit)

You must have a very good friend amongst divine casters... And very close, because to attain 21 for most wizard, it means Draconic form III + bull's strength.

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You mentioned contingency

Yes, I mentioned contingency as a spell which actually works great for a wizard.

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So even before we calculate hardness or apply damage to an object, we divide 6d6 (Average 18) by half (Average 9). Ordinarly iron has a hardness of 10 meaning most of the time it will take no damage, furthermore even on the off chance it does, Iron has 30 hit points per inch of thickness. If you put your explosive runes on 1 in iron... you should be able to set off as many as the summoned creature can survive.

My bad, I forgot about hardness... You got the point here.


Anzyr wrote:


Alright, first of all I'm not talking about a Schrodinger's wizard,

Since you didn't actually post a build with prepared spells list, spellbook and wealth spendings, yes it is.

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You yourself readily admitted that in fact a Wizard can gate in Pit Fiends (there's tons of ways to kill them at that point but if I have to detail that as well just ask).

Only if the DM determines there are pit fiends to be gated in and determines the legions of hell won't kill the wizard.

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So if desired a Wizard through their class features can in fact access Pit Fiends to make into skeletons.

Anyone can do that. UMD+scrolls means this is available to anyone. And the rogue could just use it's class features to pickpocket an epic artifact that autokills any undead within a mile so the pit fiends will be useless.

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Now you would claim that this would result in retaliation on the Wizard and that is outside the written...

If you pose that the legions of hell seeking revenge after having their generals slain is outside the written rules, would you also accept that the king reacting negatively when the fighter takes his +5 Spellbreaking Sword (with use-activated True Strike and Maze) for free is out of written rules?

And yeah, sure! You could use a balor instead. If you (a) assume that the creature controlling the balor (whether a unique creature, another balor, another spellcaster or a diety) won't mind and (b) _IGNORE THE RULES_. You cannot animate a balor because it doesn't leave a corpse.

And yeah, there are 20 hd monsters that you could animate as skeletons. They'd still generally suck, and of course with their Int - and zero skills won't be doing much good regardless.

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Next, the Shrink Item pool of lava/acid is again, strictly for use against things that are actually magic immune, since as stated above, SR is a non-issue spells with SR: Yes can be used against anything that is remotely appropriate (Caster Level +10 is easy mode and not many things can out SR that). The rules I'm using will be quoted below so don't go claiming I won't back my tactics.

"Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round."

Now the key wording here is immersion dealing 20d6 damage. Now how do I get immersion? Lets look at Shrink Item:

Yeah sorry the key wording there is _per round_. The DM assuming the blob of lava to not splash/float out is another case of an unusually lenient DM.

And Shrink Item is a 3rd level spell. The fighter could, with that ruling and implementation, fire away a pool of lava per attack from her bow.

So if you pose that a wizard can get 20d6 damage from dropping that, the fighter will get 20d6 _per attack_ from it.


Piccolo wrote:
Kolokotroni wrote:
Piccolo wrote:


Can't stand "optimized" ANYTHING. Too many glass cannons. They die way too easily.

And here is your problem, you dont deliberately optimize. Which is fine ofcourse. But the reality is that an optimized druids animal companion can ALSO show up the party's fighter if they too are not optimized. The summoner is just really really easy to optimize because the choices are so obvious. If the eidolon isnt given as many attacks as it can hold, made larger, stronger and deal energy damage with each attack, it wont show up the party fighter either. Its very easy to make an eidolon that is all utility and barely fights, but no one seems to consider that when they are dealing with a non-optimized party.

"And here is your problem," Optimization should take place not between a PC and some grand design intent on "winning" but instead on what you face in game. I've noted time and again that if a player takes their PC, and crafts it to match what's happening in game, they end up having a LOT of fun.

Really wish I could run some of you "optimizers" in a few of my encounters. I'm betting I'd watch you fall apart. It's not about beating one or two encounters, it's about surviving and protecting your buddies over the long haul.

I have trouble seeing any scenario where having both a melee character and a caster is weaker than having just a melee character. Mind you I also can see a scenario where a point blank mastery fighter would be weaker than a melee fighter.


Well then Avh, I take it by now you have realized my suggestions are hardly limitless wealth or at-will ability methods for a wizard. I hope you also have accepted that SR is a non-issue (I can easily show you how to get Caster level + 10 if you would like.)

You seem willing to admit that the wizard could in fact get a few Balors with Animate Dead, so if need be the wizard could grab outsiders from different factions in addition to using divination blockers in order to increase the likelihood your "acquisitions" will go unnoticed (alternatively kill everyone that comes after you for loads of XP and loot). If you'd like damage numbers on Animated Dead with Greater Magic Weapon I can probably whip those up if it will convince you of the SR: No damage potential of them.

Overall, my basic point is that Wizards at high level do not have the weaknesses ikarinokami describes in the post I was responding to and in fact are much better at going it solo (at high levels) than a summoner. I would hope that on this point we are in agreement.


Balors explode like a warp core breach when they die...not much left to animate.


You cannot Animate Dead on Balors. They explode when they die.

And yes, high-level wizards have few weaknesses except they have to rest more often than most other classes and thus are worse in a situation where one doesn't have time to reprepare spells.

Most of the tactics mentioned are available to more classes than the wizard though, and sometimes access is even easier.


Quote:
except they have to rest more often

Not true : by resting, they can't regain their spells more than once per day. So the wizard will rest as often as any other character.

However, a wizard who goes nova may seems like a commoner during the rest of the day though.


ikarinokami wrote:

Wizard are near useless against golems, monks not to mention creatures with high Sr for which they are quite a lot in the beastiers.

It is a well established that wizards suck at damage. Creatures that can resist or overcome control effects are a nightmare for wizards

There are ways to mitigate this, like upping the spell save DC's, improving SR penetration, using spells that don't allow saves or tossing enough spells at the target to where they'll fail one eventually.

But, I'm guessing you knew that. More importantly, recall that no single character is an island, that PC's depend upon each other to cover weaknesses.


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Avh wrote:
Quote:
except they have to rest more often

Not true : by resting, they can't regain their spells more than once per day. So the wizard will rest as often as any other character.

However, a wizard who goes nova may seems like a commoner during the rest of the day though.

Yes, but they're one of the few classes whos main abilities relies on resting. A fighter that doesn't sleep for a week? Mechanically, no penalties, and the semi-supported sleep deprivation penalty (fatigue) is easy to solve with a cheap wand. A summoner? Sure, less spells but still has a powerful minion and the summons are high enough duration and times per day that with proper resource management it will last throughout the week. Cleric? Regain through meditation once per day (no requirement of rest).

A wizard has a much harder time with this.

It gets somewhat easier at the very highest levels where teleport without error and plane shift can be cast frivously, but there will still be times when it's felt (and especially at earlier levels).


Keep Watch is easy to put on a wand too. At higher levels wizards just don't run out of spells.


MrSin wrote:
Keep Watch is easy to put on a wand too. At higher levels wizards just don't run out of spells.

Keep Watch doesn't grant you extra time, and there's no 2-hour version of time stop. The earliest way to reasonably get the extra time to rest in a time-pressed scenario would be Plane Shift to shift to a plane with a different time setting - but that assumes you also have teleport (without error preferably) to get back in action afterwards, and that the pressing issue is on a plane with normal or faster speed, and also of course planar travel can often be dangerous regardless. And if the pressing situation comes as a surprise there's a fair chance you don't have those exact spells prepared. So at the very least we're looking at two 7th level spells and a 5th level spell with a chance of error. It's a solution at high levels, but not a perfect one.

Of course, at the very end levels you can possibly Create Greater Demiplane to get your own plane where you can rest safely, but it requires the greater version to change time flow and you still need to get back into action; and at those levels, teleporting in can be dangerous or outright impossible.


You were talking about resting. Keep watch is great if you don't keep fighting, and even if you do you can have it on a wand for multiple castings. By the time you get 7th level spells you probably just won't run out of spells. At early levels you might have a problem, but you definitely won't have one at later levels. It doesn't take very long before you can cast a spell in every round of every scenario and once for every trap. Unless your going on for several sessions or lightning rounds.


MrSin wrote:
You were talking about resting. Keep watch is great if you don't keep fighting, and even if you do you can have it on a wand for multiple castings. By the time you get 7th level spells you probably just won't run out of spells. At early levels you might have a problem, but you definitely won't have one at later levels. It doesn't take very long before you can cast a spell in every round of every scenario and once for every trap. Unless your going on for several sessions or lightning rounds.

If you notice the first post on the subject, I wrote specifically about scenarios in which there isn't enough time to reprepare. It should be noted to that not only combat, but "any vigorous activity" ends the spell - this is very open to DM interpretation and can easily include things such as flying or spellcasting.

This is Ilja's Law of Stereotypical Campaign Design: As the length of a campaign goes on and characters gain more and more levels, the probability of each scenario being a "save the world from impending doom" nears one.

And there's a difference between casting a spell and casting a useful spell; at higher levels, many low-level spells will have only marginal impact on a battle (more marginal than other classes options will be). The two or three highest levels of spell rarely last for more than 3-4 fights, between a halfdozen and a dozen slots will go towards self-buffing, as many might have to go towards random stuff like teleport and plane shift etc and filling up dispelled buffs, so in a long day you can be down to cantrips in no time, especially since less access to high-level spells = fights last longer.

Meanwhile, give a synth a handful of wands and it can keep going forever.

I'm not saying wizards are weak, but how strong they are depends heavily on playing style. By the default assumptions all classes can build very strong characters - optimized characters only matter when you go to harder gameplay than the default. Some go from 4 encounters CR=APL to 5 encounters CR=APL+4, others go to 9 encounters CR=APL+2. In standard assumptions all classes can trivialize it if optimized. In the 5 hard encounters wizards will be very strong, in the 9 weaker encounters they won't be as strong.

It also depends a LOT on enemy strategy. Now, I mostly play at lower levels but I watch some high level play, and I can't really see that it would differ that much from our gaming in this regard, but casters are pretty bad at enemies coming from different directions, especially offensive-minded enemies. They have a hard time engaging enemies in different locations since they don't have the attack versatility of archers, and they're vulnerable to the enemies attacks since they don't have the resilience of barbs and synthesists (most of wizard's effective defenses rely on being prepared for the enemy or on retreating - they are no doubt master cowards lol!).

Now, I like wizards; when I actually get a chance to play rather than DM, I usually go for wizard. They're great fun and can be very powerful if one plays smart and has a lenient DM, but sometimes I feel their power is overrated on the forums.


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I agree that Wizards have the greatest potential for "brokeness" of all classes. They even have lots of divination spells to find out what they'll be facing.

That said...

1- Their power is definetely overstated here. They are extremely powerful, but they're not freaking invincible. Nothing is invincible against the GM.

2- They're harder to "break". Summoners are considerably easy to optimize, which is why so many people see them as the MOST OP CLASS EVER!

Hell, I have seen people complaining about Paladins and Gunslingers while being completely fine with high level full casters...

Apparently, having good saves and/or dealing damage is incredibly more powerful than altering relity itself!

-.-'


Ilja wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Keep Watch is easy to put on a wand too. At higher levels wizards just don't run out of spells.

Keep Watch doesn't grant you extra time, and there's no 2-hour version of time stop. The earliest way to reasonably get the extra time to rest in a time-pressed scenario would be Plane Shift to shift to a plane with a different time setting - but that assumes you also have teleport (without error preferably) to get back in action afterwards, and that the pressing issue is on a plane with normal or faster speed, and also of course planar travel can often be dangerous regardless. And if the pressing situation comes as a surprise there's a fair chance you don't have those exact spells prepared. So at the very least we're looking at two 7th level spells and a 5th level spell with a chance of error. It's a solution at high levels, but not a perfect one.

Of course, at the very end levels you can possibly Create Greater Demiplane to get your own plane where you can rest safely, but it requires the greater version to change time flow and you still need to get back into action; and at those levels, teleporting in can be dangerous or outright impossible.

I should note that there IS something that grants extra time each day. Ring of Sustenance. Sucks up one of two very valuable ring slots, but is essential for Wizard crafting on the go, and reduces the need for the party to rest 10 hours as opposed to 8 with the Ring.


Piccolo wrote:
Ilja wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Keep Watch is easy to put on a wand too. At higher levels wizards just don't run out of spells.

Keep Watch doesn't grant you extra time, and there's no 2-hour version of time stop. The earliest way to reasonably get the extra time to rest in a time-pressed scenario would be Plane Shift to shift to a plane with a different time setting - but that assumes you also have teleport (without error preferably) to get back in action afterwards, and that the pressing issue is on a plane with normal or faster speed, and also of course planar travel can often be dangerous regardless. And if the pressing situation comes as a surprise there's a fair chance you don't have those exact spells prepared. So at the very least we're looking at two 7th level spells and a 5th level spell with a chance of error. It's a solution at high levels, but not a perfect one.

Of course, at the very end levels you can possibly Create Greater Demiplane to get your own plane where you can rest safely, but it requires the greater version to change time flow and you still need to get back into action; and at those levels, teleporting in can be dangerous or outright impossible.

I should note that there IS something that grants extra time each day. Ring of Sustenance. Sucks up one of two very valuable ring slots, but is essential for Wizard crafting on the go, and reduces the need for the party to rest 10 hours as opposed to 8 with the Ring.

Hand of Glory is not a bad deal at higher levels, you will end up 'paying' about 6,000 gold (if you craft it) to combine it with other enchantments, but that money gets you an extra ring slot plus a daylight and see invisibility spell 1/day.


Piccolo wrote:
I should note that there IS something that grants extra time each day. Ring of Sustenance. Sucks up one of two very valuable ring slots, but is essential for Wizard crafting on the go, and reduces the need for the party to rest 10 hours as opposed to 8 with the Ring.

Yes, ring of sustenance is an obvious choice for any wizard (and it's a very very common choice among characters of most classes it seems) - that's why I said "there's no 2-hour version of time stop" rather than 8 hour.

I don't know why it'd suck up two ring slots though.


Ilja wrote:
Piccolo wrote:
I should note that there IS something that grants extra time each day. Ring of Sustenance. Sucks up one of two very valuable ring slots, but is essential for Wizard crafting on the go, and reduces the need for the party to rest 10 hours as opposed to 8 with the Ring.

Yes, ring of sustenance is an obvious choice for any wizard (and it's a very very common choice among characters of most classes it seems) - that's why I said "there's no 2-hour version of time stop" rather than 8 hour.

I don't know why it'd suck up two ring slots though.

So... is this turning into "The wizard can run out of resources on the off chance we never give the party 2 hours to stop"


MrSin wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Piccolo wrote:
I should note that there IS something that grants extra time each day. Ring of Sustenance. Sucks up one of two very valuable ring slots, but is essential for Wizard crafting on the go, and reduces the need for the party to rest 10 hours as opposed to 8 with the Ring.

Yes, ring of sustenance is an obvious choice for any wizard (and it's a very very common choice among characters of most classes it seems) - that's why I said "there's no 2-hour version of time stop" rather than 8 hour.

I don't know why it'd suck up two ring slots though.

So... is this turning into "The wizard can run out of resources on the off chance we never give the party 2 hours to stop"

Since it started with "the wizard is awesome if allowed to break the rules and if it's goal is to kill a random unsuspecting fighter" I don't see how that's very far-fetched.

And it's not about "never" - it can be enough to not allow it for a single day, if that day is action packed.

As said, it depends on playstyle. Some people increase difficulty by upping CR's but keeping number of encounters per day the same, others increase difficulty through upping the number of encounters and obstacles but keeping CR mostly intact. Fighters are at full strength more or less regardless of the number of encounters, most classes are at near full strength or at least decent strength regardless of the number of encounters, and some classes lose a lot of power throughout a long day.

When discussing on the forums, there seems to be an assumption of higher difficulty games being made higher difficulty in a way that penalizes martials more than spellcasters (that is, a few encounters with ultra-high CR targets). I fully agree there is a C/M disparity, but it's increased a LOT by DM's making games optimized for wizards to shine.


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Ilja wrote:
Piccolo wrote:
I should note that there IS something that grants extra time each day. Ring of Sustenance. Sucks up one of two very valuable ring slots, but is essential for Wizard crafting on the go, and reduces the need for the party to rest 10 hours as opposed to 8 with the Ring.

Yes, ring of sustenance is an obvious choice for any wizard (and it's a very very common choice among characters of most classes it seems) - that's why I said "there's no 2-hour version of time stop" rather than 8 hour.

I don't know why it'd suck up two ring slots though.

It wouldn't. I wrote "one of two valuable ring slots. Oh, and Hand of Glory takes up a slot, doesn't it? Not much of a tradeoff.

Another bit of advice: You can take a Portable Hole, rig it with a alchemy lab and a lofted bed, plus a ladder, and suddenly you have a mobile lab for crafting as you adventure. Combine that with the effects of a Ring of Sustenance, and you can still adventure AND get your 8 hours of crafting in a day, since you save at least 6 by not having to sleep, and the party can rest for 10 hours since you aren't taking a watch as you craft.


Erm... what rules does he break exactly?


MrSin wrote:
Erm... what rules does he break exactly?

The original example in this thread that started the discussion was that wizards could teleport in, cast time stop, gate in four solars and leave. Which breaks the rules in that you cannot affect other creatures (such as solars) while under the effect of time stop.


Piccolo wrote:
ikarinokami wrote:

Wizard are near useless against golems, monks not to mention creatures with high Sr for which they are quite a lot in the beastiers.

It is a well established that wizards suck at damage. Creatures that can resist or overcome control effects are a nightmare for wizards

There are ways to mitigate this, like upping the spell save DC's, improving SR penetration, using spells that don't allow saves or tossing enough spells at the target to where they'll fail one eventually.

But, I'm guessing you knew that. More importantly, recall that no single character is an island, that PC's depend upon each other to cover weaknesses.

I agree with 100% except that it doesnt apply to the Master Summoner. The master summoner is an island. The class is an anolomy, it's the outliner, the normal rules of pathfinder don't apply to it, because unlike all the other classes, it has no weakness, there is no situation it cannot eventually overcome.


ikarinokami wrote:
Piccolo wrote:
ikarinokami wrote:

Wizard are near useless against golems, monks not to mention creatures with high Sr for which they are quite a lot in the beastiers.

It is a well established that wizards suck at damage. Creatures that can resist or overcome control effects are a nightmare for wizards

There are ways to mitigate this, like upping the spell save DC's, improving SR penetration, using spells that don't allow saves or tossing enough spells at the target to where they'll fail one eventually.

But, I'm guessing you knew that. More importantly, recall that no single character is an island, that PC's depend upon each other to cover weaknesses.

I agree with 100% except that it doesnt apply to the Master Summoner. The master summoner is an island. The class is an anolomy, it's the outliner, the normal rules of pathfinder don't apply to it, because unlike all the other classes, it has no weakness, there is no situation it cannot eventually overcome.

like most Martial Classes, the master summoner is a one trick pony. it's just, instead of having a spammable trick, it has a trick that increases action economy and merely does the same thing a martial class would. in other words, dealing damage, threatening squares, soaking damage and taking space.


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That's a lot of hyperbole here...

Master Summoners are not invincible. They are not as powerful as a optimized Wizard either.

They definetely are not "one trick ponies" either. Summon, by itself, allows dozens of different tricks, from flight to healing to crowd control to direct damage. And they still have that bizarre spell list.


Lemmy wrote:

That's a lot of hyperbole here...

Master Summoners are not invincible. They are not as powerful as a optimized Wizard either.

They definetely are not "one trick ponies" either. Summon, by itself, allows dozens of different tricks, from flight to healing to crowd control to direct damage. And they still have that bizalrre spell list.

Wizards are not close. In 20 years of playing I've only seen a person quit a class three times becuase their character made the game trivial. And it was a master Summoner. Wizards are easy to negate. None of my dm ever had issues with wizards, there are so many anti wizard creatures now, its not hard. Stopping a master summoneris not possible because the other members get in the way. Unlike wizard that can easily be bnegated by the right collection of creatures. I have yet seen such a combination for the master summoner, and every round it just builds. And worst yet as he gains new summons and new list his power explodes exponentially. He starts being able to employ combinations. And if one is really good. It's like watching a chess master at work, or napoleon.

Wizard powerful but its not a contest. I would consider master summoners to more plot devices esp at high levels when they just become awe inspiring.


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I disagree.

I think the only reason Master Summoners are so much more troublesome is that they are very easy to optimize to broken levels of awesomeness... Wizards require a lot more of effort/system mastery.

It's basically the same reason we see so many threads complaining about archers/gunslingers/paladins and so few complaining about full casters. Except archery, Gunslingers and Paladins are not broken at all.

But I don't any of us will be able to convince the other, so let's just agree to disagree on that.


To put it in simpler tactical terms. There is guide in the guide to guide which discusses the combat in the game in terms of roles. There are hammers, advils and forges. Wizard are best at being forges. They make terrible hammers. Wizards can do I role very well at a time. The master summoner can do all 3 roles simultaneously at very high level. This is ultimately why the class is problematic, because it certain assumptions made in the game. In a game of interdepence a class with the ability to function without need for others is problematic.


the master summoner may be better at summoning than a wizard, but a wizard has far more options, and that summon SLA can be dispelled. thus removing it entirely with a caster level check.

the wizard has far more options, but the master summoner does little more than rapidly churn out mooks. churning out mooks wears down a foe. but mooks are merely expendable.

the master summoner. doesn't have the versatility of the wizard, they compensate by summoning faster with longer durations. but the downside of summoning, is that summons die fast, can be dispelled, and that most master summoners are hosed by such things as DR and High Armor class, moreso than even a 2WF rogue.

plus the summons dissapear in a matter of minutes anyway. so you can just run and wait for them to expire. running for a half hour should suffice.

summons nowhere near rival a level appropriate PC of any class on their own. their main purpose, is that they are expendable.


Lemmy wrote:

I disagree.

I think the only reason Master Summoners are so much more troublesome is that they are very easy to optimize to broken levels of awesomeness... Wizards require a lot more of effort/system mastery.

It's basically the same reason we see so many threads complaining about archers/gunslingers/paladins and so few complaining about full casters. Except archery, Gunslingers and Paladins are not broken at all.

But I don't any of us will be able to convince the other, so let's just agree to disagree on that.

Wrong the problem with master summoners has nothing to do with optimization and everything to with summon monster.

The spell itself is normally well balanced and limitations built into spell normally prevent it from being used to its maximum potential. The full round casting time and limited amount usually prevents the player from both creating an army and mixing and matching, because the slow speed and limited number make it inefficient to do so. By removing both the time and number limitation the power and tactical possiblilty are greatly enchanced.

One does not need to optimize a master summoner. All one needs is a good tactical understanding of the game and knowledge of what the capablilties of the monsters.

This also what makes the archtype so scary , once does not to particularly optimize, you just really need to know what your summons can do.


ikarinokami wrote:
To put it in simpler tactical terms. There is guide in the guide to guide which discusses the combat in the game in terms of roles. There are hammers, advils and forges. Wizard are best at being forges. They make terrible hammers. Wizards can do I role very well at a time. The master summoner can do all 3 roles simultaneously at very high level. This is ultimately why the class is problematic, because it certain assumptions made in the game. In a game of interdepence a class with the ability to function without need for others is problematic.

a master summoner isn't healing, and they aren't killing on their own

they are using summons to die for them. they also aren't the skill monkey either.

a wizard can be a caster and a skill monkey, but are horrible damage dealers

a master summoner contributes little more than buffs, battlefield control, and a boatload of summons.

a master summoner is a battlefield control specialist and nothing more. they take space, mitigate damage, and waste enemy resources through their summons. and to gaurantee their summons keep up, they have to flood the battlefield, and overwhelm with a higher action economy. in fact, the whole class revolves around messing with the action economy. either by making your group's actions worth more, gaining extra actions, or by making your foe waste actions.

one really powerful trick, no matter how powerful, is merely a single trick. it is just a really powerful trick.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

the master summoner may be better at summoning than a wizard, but a wizard has far more options, and that summon SLA can be dispelled. thus removing it entirely with a caster level check.

the wizard has far more options, but the master summoner does little more than rapidly churn out mooks. churning out mooks wears down a foe. but mooks are merely expendable.

the master summoner. doesn't have the versatility of the wizard, they compensate by summoning faster with longer durations. but the downside of summoning, is that summons die fast, can be dispelled, and that most master summoners are hosed by such things as DR and High Armor class, moreso than even a 2WF rogue.

plus the summons dissapear in a matter of minutes anyway. so you can just run and wait for them to expire. running for a half hour should suffice.

summons nowhere near rival a level appropriate PC of any class on their own. their main purpose, is that they are expendable.

You do know that there are summons that use range touch attacks and ignore Dr, heck a silly cr 2 lantern archron does that.

a lot of people don't seem realize how nasty the summon monsters list are, that many of these monster when summoned in numbers are insane.


Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
ikarinokami wrote:
To put it in simpler tactical terms. There is guide in the guide to guide which discusses the combat in the game in terms of roles. There are hammers, advils and forges. Wizard are best at being forges. They make terrible hammers. Wizards can do I role very well at a time. The master summoner can do all 3 roles simultaneously at very high level. This is ultimately why the class is problematic, because it certain assumptions made in the game. In a game of interdepence a class with the ability to function without need for others is problematic.

a master summoner isn't healing, and they aren't killing on their own

they are using summons to die for them. they also aren't the skill monkey either.

a wizard can be a caster and a skill monkey, but are horrible damage dealers

a master summoner contributes little more than buffs, battlefield control, and a boatload of summons.

a master summoner is a battlefield control specialist and nothing more. they take space, mitigate damage, and waste enemy resources through their summons. and to gaurantee their summons keep up, they have to flood the battlefield, and overwhelm with a higher action economy. in fact, the whole class revolves around messing with the action economy. either by making your group's actions worth more, gaining extra actions, or by making your foe waste actions.

one really powerful trick, no matter how powerful, is merely a single trick. it is just a really powerful trick.

You really don't know master summoners can do. I have seen a master summoner using lantern archon ( 30 foot range, touch ac, ignore all Dr)level an apl + 5 encounter with ease. Out damage every class combined, while buffing and creating flanking opportunties and had meatshields summons on the field doing combat manuvers. The character was retired that session.

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