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@ People complaining up-thread about the ranger being left behind by a hypothetical fighter pounce feat... Screw Rangers.
Really. They get 6+ skill points, a ridiculous spell that allows them to get favoured enemy on anything, spells, and a whole bunch of peripheral stuff like evasion and more. The Monk stares with envy at D10 HD and actual BAB, And the rogue only wishes he could be as stealthy (HiPS for ranger, but not the rogue? Dafuq? I don't even play rogues and that pisses me off).
I agree, although I do think that there are glitches in the system that could be fixed relatively easily and that also ease the apparent issue.
Class Defense Bonus.
It is actually a okay system. Though making it Half-B.A.B. works better as far as I can tell.
I considered that, but AC would be too high. Even wizards would eventually get a +5. Fighters would get a +10.
My idea was to reduce the need for AC boosters, allowing Martials to save their money and buy cool stuff instead of numerical bonuses, but I didn't want to make AC boosters completelly unnecessary.
I like the idea of getting magic items that protect you from danger, I just wish I didn't need 2~3 of them plus magic armor to have a competitive AC.
It's a bit sad that magic enhancement bonuses are so essential for a character to succeed that they became little more than pointless math at this point...
Standard +5 Full Plate is +14 AC. Under the Class Defense System you can choose either the +10 without armour or the +14 with armour.
This thread has not much sense. Disparity depends on gm style, on what rules (advanced or not) and books group uses, group composition, etc. There are classes that alone are weak but buffed in team are the strongest. Ok, there are some classes, like druid, or inquisitors, that got much power in all situation, but an average gm can handle this easy. Just do your game, if all this things togheter create an unbalanced situation fix it. Game rules are too complex to be perfectly balanced. A single broken spell can make a caster over powered. Optional rules for custom items can make a warrior almost spell proof, and so on. Just be smart, respect your player and try to make all enjoy. In our games usually melee dps character owns. Sometimes depends on who plays it. I made an alchemist with mindchemist arch. As soon i bought some int boost game was almost ruined. With cognatogen DC of bombs were insane. None could compare. And knowledge check? I could surclass everyone, even mage who specilized in arcana, and without feats. Had to change that, and we decided to don't use cognatogen anymore.
Rogue was too weak for us, and we buffed him. Now i'm testing Covent's rogue, and it's really nice. Made some minor fixes, a few major fixes and now our game is what we wanted. We have a really nice debuffer rogue, a crowd controller monk, barbarian damage dealer, a cleric quite combat oriented, a cleric/mage going for mystic theurge, a kensai. Not an optimized group, but feats our campaing, and satisfy all. When we see that a player has some issue with his character we discuss and help him.
If we discuss RAW it makes sense. RAW there is a disparity, with houserules you change a lot though, and if that weighed in on every discussion... well stuff.
@ People complaining up-thread about the ranger being left behind by a hypothetical fighter pounce feat... Screw Rangers.
Really. They get 6+ skill points, a ridiculous spell that allows them to get favoured enemy on anything, spells, and a whole bunch of peripheral stuff like evasion and more. The Monk stares with envy at D10 HD and actual BAB, And the rogue only wishes he could be as stealthy (HiPS for ranger, but not the rogue? Dafuq? I don't even play rogues and that pisses me off).
To be fair, that's more of an issue with Rogues and Monks than with Rangers.
I believe Fighters should have the best in-combat mobility (among other things).
That's why I like the idea of every class being able to make more than a single attack with a standard action, like the extra attack mechanics I proposed or Dabbler's half-full attack idea.
If every character had that kind of mobility, I'd have no problem at all with Fighters getting Pounce.
You are not going to convince a hand full of people that the disparity is not like they make it seem so it's really just a pointless argument.
Some people have problems while other people don't so just leave it at that.
Hah... It's kinda funny reading this from the same guy who made a bunch of threads about the constant reduction of the weaknesses of magic.
The caster/martial disparity does exist, and it's pretty obvious too. It's not as bad as it once was, IMO, but pretending it's not there is just silly.
I'll post a list I made about some reasons I believe there is a clear disparity between casters and martials.
- Martials still can't move 10ft without losing most of their efficiency, while caster can move all they want and still cast twice in the same round.
- Casters can still break campaigns at higher levels (which is why not many of us play at those levels).
- Martials are still highly dependent on gear they can't even craft. Casters not only need much less gold, they can also easily afford magic item crafting feats.
- Martials still need to go through long feat chains, often full of useless/boring prerequisites to get to the cool/useful stuff, while nearly every feat a caster will ever want has no prerequisites other than being a caster.
- Martials are still punished for trying to do anything other than stand still and attack. Move and attack? Huge loss of damage. Combat Maneuver? Either grab those 3 feats (including the deplorable Combat Expertise) and a 13 on a tertiary stat or suck at doing it. And even if you pick those feats, maneuvers are still not that good.Not to mention casters' weaknesses are considerably easier to overcome. Low HP and AC? There are ton of feats, gear and spells for that. Now, how do you increase a martial character's gear dependency? Or mobility? (and I don't mean movement speed, I mean the ability to move and still be effective)
Can you honestly tell me any of those issues is a myth?
you can force a caster to run out of spells but you can't make a fighter run out of sword, or even arrows past a point.
This right here is whats killing me in reign of winter. my ranger pretty much ends every morning looking at the party wizards and saying "What do you mean can we make camp?" noting drives my martials crazier than the 15 minute work day.
You can't run out of sword, but you can run out of hit points.
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You can't run out of sword, but you can run out of hit points.
Actually... You can run out of sword. You can be disarmed. Or lose your sword. Or have it sundered/stolen.
It may not happen as often as running out of spells, but if it does happen, you don't regain your sword with a 8h sleep either.
You can't run out of sword, but you can run out of hit points.Actually... You can run out of sword. You can be disarmed. Or lose your sword. Or have it sundered/stolen.
It may not happen as often as running out of spells, but if it does happen, you don't regain your sword with a 8h sleep either.
Actually it's easier than ever for casters to disarm warriors. Warriors got weapon cords, casters got break. A spell that targets an object and forces a fortitude to apply the broken condition or destroy the object if it's broken. Unlike shatter it doesn't require the item be mundane and is a 1st level spell. The only saving grace a warrior has in this case is it's a Fortitude save and the item can use its owner's saving throw as long as it's in their possession. However, a lesser rod of quicken can net you x2 castings of it in a round. If both saves are failed the object is destroyed.
Standard +5 Full Plate is +14 AC. Under the Class Defense System you can choose either the +10 without armour or the +14 with armour.
So, based on that I can either spend $25K, get reduced movement and a minus on a lot of skills, or have four less AC...what to do what to do?
This would make armour useless.
Martials still can't move 10ft without losing most of their efficiency, while caster can move all they want and still cast twice in the same round.
- Casters can still break campaigns at higher levels (which is why not many of us play at those levels).
- Martials still need to go through long feat chains, often full of useless/boring prerequisites to get to the cool/useful stuff, while nearly every feat a caster will ever want has no prerequisites other than being a caster.
- Martials are still punished for trying to do anything other than stand still and attack. Move and attack? Huge loss of damage. Combat Maneuver? Either grab those 3 feats (including the deplorable Combat Expertise) and a 13 on a tertiary stat or suck at doing it. And even if you pick those feats, maneuvers are still not that good.
Not to mention casters' weaknesses are considerably easier to overcome. Low HP and AC? There are ton of feats, gear and spells for that. Now, how do you increase a martial character's gear dependency? Or mobility? (and I don't mean movement speed, I mean the ability to move and still be effective).
Spellcaster can only cast 2x under special condtions, with feats or Magic items. The martial can do the same.
Not many of us play at high levels as it takes so long to get there. Groups morph.
There's a whole thread on Great Spell Specialization vs Preferred Spell.
And then you go back to the problem with martials and move & attack.
Basically that's the whole gist of your problem. And, sure, it does exist. But not until higher levels. Still, warriors don't often NEED to go pinging around the dungeon from foe to foe 40 feet away.
Not entirely it just helps with Wilderness and lower Armour Settings. Such as LotR or Swashbuckling Style Games. Or higher Firearm Settings. Though it works better with the Armour as DR system.
EDIT:
1) Explain how a martial can do this?
2) This isn't true of all campaigns.
3) The point is still valid on Feat Chains.
4) You still spend a round being less effective. Unlike your caster Comrade.
Actually it's easier than ever for casters to disarm warriors. Warriors got weapon cords, casters got break. A spell that targets an object and forces a fortitude to apply the broken condition or destroy the object if it's broken. Unlike shatter it doesn't require the item be mundane and is a 1st level spell. The only saving grace a warrior has in this case is it's a Fortitude save and the item can use its owner's saving throw as long as it's in their possession. However, a lesser rod of quicken can net you x2 castings of it in a round. If both saves are failed the object is destroyed.
It's really easy to sunder that rod. Or draw a new weapon. Or grapple the wizard and feed him to himself. A wizard that stands within a move of a fighter like that (it's a Close range spell) is just asking for it.
It's really easy to sunder that rod. Or draw a new weapon. Or grapple the wizard and feed him to himself. A wizard that stands within a move of a fighter like that (it's a Close range spell) is just asking for it.
Close spells actually have a really good range. 25+5/2 levels gives plenty of space. Lots of space that can leave room for things in between.
Edit: Touch on the other hand...
You can easily be outside of a Hasted Fighter before to long. Plus it gets expensive to have multiple back-up weapons.
Actually it's easier than ever for casters to disarm warriors. Warriors got weapon cords, casters got break. A spell that targets an object and forces a fortitude to apply the broken condition or destroy the object if it's broken. Unlike shatter it doesn't require the item be mundane and is a 1st level spell. The only saving grace a warrior has in this case is it's a Fortitude save and the item can use its owner's saving throw as long as it's in their possession. However, a lesser rod of quicken can net you x2 castings of it in a round. If both saves are failed the object is destroyed.It's really easy to sunder that rod. Or draw a new weapon. Or grapple the wizard and feed him to himself. A wizard that stands within a move of a fighter like that (it's a Close range spell) is just asking for it.
I think you're missing my point. Yes, you can sunder the wizard's rod. No doubt there. Heck, wizards can sunder the wizard's rod (he can even break his rod). I'm just pointing out that it's pretty easy to ruin someone's favorite shiny.
I'm a long time proponent of spare weapons and the like for these very reasons. I'd rather have a nice assortment of weapons. The more weapons you have the less attractive spending actions to break them becomes.
It doesn't have to be weapons though. Shields, armor, your boots of speed or flying, your magic carpet, the works. The caster giveth, the caster taketh away.
That being said, it's rare that I've seen casters get sundered a lot unless something dire has occurred. Most of the casters I've seen or played tended to avoid melee combat like the plague, and usually enjoyed the comfort and safety of some form of big meat shield in front of them (either a PC, summon, pet, creation, etc).
Honestly a good mage takes advantage of cover and circumstantial modifier rules like they were sacred. For example, did you know that crouching/kneeling/sitting gives you a +2 vs ranged attacks at a -2 to melee attacks for what is otherwise no penalty to movement and doesn't take an action to do? So a wizard can be ducking while moving during a combat to increase his AC vs missiles by +2. Then if there is anyone between him and the shooter, he gets +4 for soft cover. +30% evasion vs missiles before static miss %s is pretty decent.
Standard +5 Full Plate is +14 AC. Under the Class Defense System you can choose either the +10 without armour or the +14 with armour.
So, based on that I can either spend $25K, get reduced movement and a minus on a lot of skills, or have four less AC...what to do what to do?
This would make armour useless.
I'd rather have +1 Heavy Fortification Armor on most characters, as that protects you from a crit wiping out your HP on one lucky shot.
I wonder if allowing a full attack for melee as long as the character moves not more than half their movement would be too strong? Considering that ranged rarely have to move each round, it would help to balance things out a little more.
Spellcaster can only cast 2x under special condtions, with feats or Magic items. The martial can do the same.
It's MUCH easier for a caster to get access to Quickened spell than it's for a martial o get access to Pounce or similar abilities. And even if we ignore swift-action casting, a wizard can still move all they want without fear of losing any efficiency, the same can't be said about martials. And this happens as soon as 6th level, or even earlier, if someone is using TWF.
Of course, there are some spells that require full round actions, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.Not many of us play at high levels as it takes so long to get there. Groups morph.
The main reason not many of us play at high levels is exactly because magic is so OMGWTFBBQ powerful by then. Were it not as world-changing and/or unbalanced with the rest of the game, I'm sure high-level games would be much more common. At those levels, martials have no way to change the world around them nearly as much as casters do, which IMO,does not mean that martials are too limited, but that casters are excessively powerful by then. The other issues, however, are more about the severe limits that martials have to face, while casters are completely unnaffected by them.
There's a whole thread on Great Spell Specialization vs Preferred Spell.
So...? I don't see your point.
And then you go back to the problem with martials and move & attack.
Actually, it's more of related, but different point:
- Martials lose a lot of efficiency if they they try to do anything other than full attack. This includes, but is not limited to: moving 10ft.I admit that the lack of mobility is what bugs me the most about martial classes. It really annoys me that a 20th level Fighter can't move more than 5ft without losing most of his efficiency!
Basically that's the whole gist of your problem. And, sure, it does exist. But not until higher levels. Still, warriors don't often NEED to go pinging around the dungeon from foe to foe 40 feet away.
IMO, the disparity becomes evident at about 11~13th level, and then starts to grow pretty fast.
And about pinging from foe to foe, I assume it happens at least once per combat, or do all your encounters start with every enemy adjacent to you?What does a melee character do against a dragon? Go on and make a single attack against the beast and proceeed to take a AoO and then a whole full attack? That doesn't sound like a very good tactic, and yet, it's basically the only possible one...
I wonder if allowing a full attack for melee as long as the character moves not more than half their movement would be too strong? Considering that ranged rarely have to move each round, it would help to balance things out a little more.
I actually allow Fighters to do that at 10th level. At 20th level, they can always full attack as a standard action, no matter how much they moved.
Useful? Sure! OP? No even close.
Spellcaster can only cast 2x under special condtions, with feats or Magic items. The martial can do the same.It's MUCH easier for a caster to get access to Quickened spell than it's for a martial o get access to Pounce or similar abilities. And even if we ignore swift-action casting, a wizard can still move all they want without fear of losing any efficiency, the same can't be said about martials. And this happens as soon as 6th level, or even earlier, if someone is using TWF.
Of course, there are some spells that require full round actions, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.Not many of us play at high levels as it takes so long to get there. Groups morph.The main reason not many of us play at high levels is exactly because magic is so OMGWTFBBQ powerful by then. Were it not as world-changing and/or unbalanced with the rest of the game, I'm sure high-level games would be much more common. At those levels, martials have no way to change the world around them nearly as much as casters do, which IMO,does not mean that martials are too limited, but that casters are excessively powerful by then. The other issues, however, are more about the severe limits that martials have to face, while casters are completely unnaffected by them.
There's a whole thread on Great Spell Specialization vs Preferred Spell.So...? I don't see your point.
I disagree. Look at the Barbarian. How hard is it for him to get Pounce?
Next- other than a few campaigns that have started at 2nd level, every single long term campaign I have been in, yes, even the ones that went Epic, started at 1st level. But life interfere, you lose the DM, a lot of players, the game host, etc. Then you start again- at 1st level. For every campaign that gets to 20th, 20+ start at 1st. No doubt, sometimes a few campaigns peter out and restart as the DM is overwhelmed with the power level, but so far I have seen that happen exactly once.
Those are Spell feats that are considered great feats to take- but with pre-req. Read them.
Still, warriors don't often NEED to go pinging around the dungeon from foe to foe 40 feet away.
Are you speaking from experience?
My own experience might differ from you, then. For instance, in the last battle our 15th level party fought before we started playtesting Mythic, against a pair of high level spellcasters and minions (a very large battle when we dropped in on the leader of a hostile wizards' guild plus a bunch of her allies) the fight ran to, IIRC, eleven rounds, during which time my fighter was able to full attack twice, only once, after a full ten rounds of combat, to good effect as the other time was against himself due to a spell.
Not that I wasn't trying to get into full attack position the other nine rounds, of course. It's just that the enemies who could move and still unload their full offense on me for some strange unaccountable reason actually did move, rather than standing stock still to enable me to unload my full offense on them.
I don't remember a combat in years where I didn't have to frequently cover >5 ft distances round and round again. 2010, I think, would be the last fight I can think of when I didn't have to give up a full attack in order to move again at some point after first closing into melee, and that was against a super high AC gorilla fighter who had an invisible oracle backup to drop heals on him whenever necessary... you can probably guess he didn't find it urgent to remove himself from my reach.
I disagree. Look at the Barbarian. How hard is it for him to get Pounce?
Next- other than a few campaigns that have started at 2nd level, every single long term campaign I have been in, yes, even the ones that went Epic, started at 1st level. But life interfere, you lose the DM, a lot of players, the game host, etc. Then you start again- at 1st level. For every campaign that gets to 20th, 20+ start at 1st. No doubt, sometimes a few campaigns peter out and restart as the DM is overwhelmed with the power level, but so far I have seen that happen exactly once.
The Barbarian is the one martial class who can viably get Pounce. At 10th level. Using 3 Rage Powers. I'd say it's more of an exception than a rule.
And like I said before, let's add insult to the injury:
Druids get Pounce at 6th level. For free.
Summoners get it at 1st level. For a single evolution point.
Fighters... Uh... Can get an archetype to be able to move and full attack at 15th level. But they lose their first (and most useful) attack when doing so. That's just sad...
Those are Spell feats that are considered great feats to take- but with pre-req. Read them.
And yet we also have:
- Improved Initiative- Defensive Combat Training
- Opposition Research
- Spell Penetration
- Combat Casting
- Arcane Strike
- Natural Spell
- Improved Familiar
- Expanded Arcana
- Great Fortitude
- Toughness
- Improved Counter Spell
- Fast Study
- Eschew Material
- Spell Focus
- Magical Aptitude
- Skill Focus
- Nearly every metamagic feat
- Nearly every Magic Item Creation feat
None of those has any prerequisite other than being a nth level caster and/or having the class feature you want to improve.
With the exception of Eschew Material, Improved Counter Spell and Expanded Arcana, they are all pretty good feats, and most stay relevant no matter how high your level too.
Casters hacing to worry about prerequisites is much more of an exception than a rule.
"Q: What do you think of caster/martial disparity at higher levels?
A: I think it's a myth propagated by people with agendas."
-- James Jacobs, 2013
Agenda, yes.
Myth, No.fighter level 1. Roll initiative one time. Move more than 5 ft + hit monster with stick once.
fighter level 20. Roll initiative one time. Move more than 5 ft + hit monster with stick once.
Improved Maneuver such as trip and greater Maneuver cost three feats and fighter needs 13 int.
Weapon Focus, Improved Critical and Greater Weapon Focus cost the fighter three feats.
Battle oracle level 1: Roll initiative one time.
Move more than 5 ft + hit monster with stick once or
Cast spell + move
Battle oracle level 11: can roll for initiative three times and take any one of the results.
Has Improved Maneuver and greater Maneuver at the cost of one revelation or one feat, do not need to meet the prereqs.
Has Weapon Focus, Improved Critical and and gets Greater Weapon Focus at level 12 at the cost of one revelation or one feat.
Battle oracle level 20: Cast quicken divine power + Move more than 5 ft + hit monster with stick 4 times (or more if she got the TWF chain).
Or
Cast quicken miracle or quicken summon monster 9 + activate her Mithral Full Plate Of Speed + Move more than 5 ft + hit monster with stick 4 times (or more times if she got the TWF chain).
In case of the rogue it’s even worse. She still can’t Feint as swift action and can only sneak attack when certain conditions are met. She is a skill monkey, but with an exception or two skills don’t really matter at level 20 (or 16) because skills are not only often nonfunctional (Diplomacy, Stealth), they're also almost always hardcapped at what's "realistic" or "humanly possible".
All this said:
I don't see the caster/martial disparity as a big problem. Most of the time the game works fine.
Skills need to be more useful at higher levels.
Fighters and rogues needs a fix.
Actually, classes that don’t use spells, with the exception of the Barbarian, probably needs a fix. Although I don’t really get my people complaint about the monk. True the vanila monk is kind a weak and the unarmed combat option isn't perfect but apart from that the class, after the the AGP, UM and UC and the recent blog fixes, is rock solid. At higher levels it can dimmension door as swift action and full attack the same round.
Actually, classes that don’t use spells, with the exception of the Barbarian, probably needs a fix.
This sounds about right. At higher levels even the four-level spell lists are pretty powerful now with UC/UM spells.
I don't really know where the noncore non spell using classes stand with regard to help needed, though, due to lack of experience with them in play. I tend to consider theorycrafting of less value than play experience, and so I'd be reluctant to make an argument on that basis (though I will say I have never seen a thread with a title like "cavaliers are OP").
You know, Zark, I'd love to see Fighters and other martials working more like Oracles of Battle, where their feats scale with level and their mobility and in-combat options get better based on character level.
I honestly think Oracles of Battle are much better designed as a martial class than most martial classes themselves. They get lots of cool and useful stuff that scales with level and are in no way OP (well... apart from their full casting, of course, but I'm talking about their mundane abilities here)
I disagree about the agenda part, though... I'm not even sure what JJ meant by that. Does he believe PF players are trying to undermine game balance to make their favorite classes more powerful than those of tother players? Does he think those who complain about caster/martial disparity merely want to have characters more powerful than those of our friends?
I have rarely seen anyone defending poor balance between classes. There were a few odd cases, of course, but from my experience, most of us, even those who favor Wizards or Druids, would like to see a better balanced Pathfinder.
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Keep in mind agenda also just means that they have a goal (which we do. To make martials more balanced.)
That's true, but it doesn't sound like he had such subtle interpretation in mind.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of JJ, even if I strongly disagree with some of his ideas. Being a fan is not the same as sharing and defending all his ideas and opinions.
It's really easy to sunder that rod.
But sundering the rod does not stop the wizard casting spells as a standard action, it just reduces their effectiveness. Given the chances of getting close to said caster with a melee weapon (see below) this is likely only going to be done by another caster.
Or draw a new weapon.
Assuming you have plenty of spares, and your spare weapons will not be as strongly enchanted as your primary weapon because of the cost of it. At most you will have one or maybe two spares. After that, he's pretty sunk.
Or grapple the wizard and feed him to himself.
Assuming you can reach him. Not for nothing is the 'invisible flying wizard' a staple of caster vs martial.
A wizard that stands within a move of a fighter like that (it's a Close range spell) is just asking for it.
True, but not really that relevant as he doesn't have to do so.
However, I will add as stated previously that power isn't everything. What it often comes down to is what I call 'spotlight time' - that characters all get a chance to do something important to the party's success. If it's easy to neutralise a character, then this is likely to get violated.
I admit that the lack of mobility is what bugs me the most about martial classes. It really annoys me that a 20th level Fighter can't move more than 5ft without losing most of his efficiency!
Doesn't Quick Runner's Shirt solve most of a melee characters movement problems for a pretty cheap cost?
Using magic item creation rules it should be as simple as adding another 1000gp to the cost for each additional daily use as well. 3000gp for a 3/day item. 10,000gp for a 10/day item. Bam, now you can full attack almost all the time.
Yes, so well they banned it from PFS...it's kind of a problematic item, especially when people start carrying around stacks of them...
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Yes, so well they banned it from PFS...it's kind of a problematic item, especially when people start carrying around stacks of them...
I wonder... Is it problematic because it helps let fighters/rogues/monks catch up just a little bit closer to the pouncing barbarians or (god forbid) the spell casters in effectiveness?
I think it's too cheap for what it does, honestly.
That I agree with. It should probably cost 5-6k per daily use. Even at that price though it would let other melee classes invest some gold and be able to (sort of) keep pace with the pouncing barbarians after level 10. This is a good thing
Yes, so well they banned it from PFS...it's kind of a problematic item, especially when people start carrying around stacks of them...I wonder... Is it problematic because it helps let fighters/rogues/monks catch up just a little bit closer to the pouncing barbarians or (god forbid) the spell casters in effectiveness?
I think it's too cheap for what it does, honestly.That I agree with. It should probably cost 5-6k per daily use. Even at that price though it would let other melee classes invest some gold and be able to (sort of) keep pace with the pouncing barbarians after level 10. This is a good thing
It would let the barbarian pounce without the rage powers too. I agree, the pricing should be greater, but at best it is an 'item patch' to a fundamental problem in the game design.
Another class that can 'pounce' though it is not 'official' is the psychic warrior, with the hustle power available around 4th level. However the PW is a 3/4 BAB class, they don't actually get a second attack until 8th level without TWFing.
I think it's too cheap for what it does, honestly.That I agree with. It should probably cost 5-6k per daily use. Even at that price though it would let other melee classes invest some gold and be able to (sort of) keep pace with the pouncing barbarians after level 10. This is a good thingIt would let the barbarian pounce without the rage powers too. I agree, the pricing should be greater, but at best it is an 'item patch' to a fundamental problem in the game design.
Another class that can 'pounce' though it is not 'official' is the psychic warrior, with the hustle power available around 4th level. However the PW is a 3/4 BAB class, they don't actually get a second attack until 8th level without TWFing.
Aren't Winged Boots also an "item patch" to a fundamental problem? Yet no one complains and says they need to be removed from the game.
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Magic Weapons, Armor, Cloaks of Resistance, ect ... are all item patches to a fundamental problem.
I admit that the lack of mobility is what bugs me the most about martial classes. It really annoys me that a 20th level Fighter can't move more than 5ft without losing most of his efficiency!Doesn't Quick Runner's Shirt solve most of a melee characters movement problems for a pretty cheap cost?
Using magic item creation rules it should be as simple as adding another 1000gp to the cost for each additional daily use as well. 3000gp for a 3/day item. 10,000gp for a 10/day item. Bam, now you can full attack almost all the time.
1 Extra Move Action per day is only considered such a great deal because of how desperately martials need mobility.
It's not that the shirt is too powerful, but it help with a problem so serious, any martial considers it extremel valuable.Magic Weapons, Armor, Cloaks of Resistance, etc ... are all item patches to a fundamental problem.
That's true... Magic items went from cool stuff that do incredible things to boring, but imperative numerical bonuses.
Because even the mightiest warrior is nothing without a magic sword. -.-'
Aren't Winged Boots also an "item patch" to a fundamental problem? Yet no one complains and says they need to be removed from the game.I think it's too cheap for what it does, honestly.That I agree with. It should probably cost 5-6k per daily use. Even at that price though it would let other melee classes invest some gold and be able to (sort of) keep pace with the pouncing barbarians after level 10. This is a good thingIt would let the barbarian pounce without the rage powers too. I agree, the pricing should be greater, but at best it is an 'item patch' to a fundamental problem in the game design.
Another class that can 'pounce' though it is not 'official' is the psychic warrior, with the hustle power available around 4th level. However the PW is a 3/4 BAB class, they don't actually get a second attack until 8th level without TWFing.
Not really, no. I mean, a potion of fly can effectively do as much. It's not as if there aren't half-a-dozen different ways of flying by some means or another that a non-caster can use.
Magic Weapons, Armor, Cloaks of Resistance, ect ... are all item patches to a fundamental problem.
They are? I think they came about because of demand, for the most part, and the system had to be modified for them initially - after all, every warrior wants a magic sword. If you have a magic sword, you can have magic armour, and then magic cloaks...they are just staples of fantasy literature. Once it was modified for them, it became hard to do without them. I do not think that they were ever intended as 'patches' to particular problems as such. Only with 3e did the 'patch' item come along, in the form of the original amulet of mighty fists when it finally dawned that monks were getting left way behind in accuracy and damage. It still IS a patch, the original issue has never been resolved.
I have to agree with Lemmy, the quick runner's shirt is too valuable because of the demand for full attacks and movement combined.
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I don't want a game without gear and I am ok with some classes needing more gear than others.
You missed my point. I like magic items. They're cool and fun.
I just wish they were more like Ring of Invisibility, Cloak of Wings and Flaming Swords... You know, things that actually sound magical. Not +X to random attribute/AC/to-hit/damage/saves/whatever that you NEED to have in order to not suck.
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Magic items are a treadmill when they're there to fix problems. Congratz, you are now level 4, but due to game design without a certain item you will fall behind. Hope your DM throws you a few +1's to keep up.
I actually really like items that are magical and do neat things. I'd rather have a bunch of flavorful items than mechanically boosting ones, but I see them as toys instead of weapons of war.(can't they be both?)
+x swords and armor are fine they have been here from the beginning and they reproduce the fantasy stories well.
However, I dislike the stat boosting items and the cloak of resistance.
I have no problem with +X swords... I just wish they were not so essential. I'd like it more if they were a bonus, not a necessity.
Anyway, it doesn't botter me much, it's not ideal, IMO, but I don't particulary care about it either...
Magic Weapons, Armor, Cloaks of Resistance, ect ... are all item patches to a fundamental problem.They are? I think they came about because of demand, for the most part, and the system had to be modified for them initially - after all, every warrior wants a magic sword. If you have a magic sword, you can have magic armour, and then magic cloaks...they are just staples of fantasy literature. Once it was modified for them, it became hard to do without them. I do not think that they were ever intended as 'patches' to particular problems as such. Only with 3e did the 'patch' item come along, in the form of the original amulet of mighty fists when it finally dawned that monks were getting left way behind in accuracy and damage. It still IS a patch, the original issue has never been resolved.
I have to agree with Lemmy,...
Well that's the issue, the entire system is designed around non-casters needing magic items to do stuff beyond low levels. In 3.0 Haste gave you an extra move or attack (or spell). So, much like Flight, the system is build around assuming there was a 3rd level spell for that and that a Fighter would have either a friendly caster or a magic item to grant him that ability when needed.
But haste got nerfed in 3.5 (which was needed), but left the martials high and dry.
I don't really see how a Martial needing a QRS to do his job is much different from him needing a magic sword or belt of strength or [item] that grants flight.