Caster / Martial disparity in PF?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Bomanz wrote:

I must be the only one who has ever seen the fighter of the party kill most everything in the encounter, while the Wizard and Cleric provided support.

Guy with pointy things smacking them into the bad guys fixes encounters far better than anything else in pretty much EVERY game I have been a part of.

Countdown to "but but but personal experience doesnt matter in the face of such overwhelming theory!" argument in 3.........2.........

You aren't the only guy who has seen this.

My fighter kills like crazy when the cleric and the wizard (and the bard and the sorcerer for a quadruple threat) are providing support as well. If they are focusing on some other tactic, on the other hand, and unable or unwilling to provide support, then I also know to play conservative and not try to bite off very much.

I am more than capable of killing like mad on a frequent basis thanks to this support, and still thinking that fighters (and rogues, and... well, basically, mundane martial/skilled types) need some love (not a simple increase in offensive numbers, though... extraordinary options.)

Because honestly, if you've got two whole characters spending their time supporting your fighter, yeah, he'll rock more. If you have two whole characters dedicated to supporting your caster (an example of such a supporter would be a debuffer witch who makes sure the foe is failing his saves against the other caster's stuff) then your caster would rock more too. Nothing unique to martiality here; it says a lot more about the power of teamwork than it does about the power of the fighter in your example.

Quote:
Edit: Can we not turn this thread into one about the fighter?

Given how I feel about it (that there is not a uniform martial-caster divide true of all martial classes, rather, some martial classes are distinctly better off than others and not much in need of fixing) how would you suggest discussing this opinion without making the thread about the particular classes where I identify a more severe divide?

I could try to use the term "mundane martial/skilled types" (as opposed to extraordinary/supernatural ones like a paladin or barbarian), as above, if that would help, I guess.


Atarlost wrote:
It appears the game designers viewed them as melee monsters as well because the classes balance better if melee is their first resort.

That one hurts my head actually...

And yeah, that game I was in was a messy one. Impromptu houserules. Sometimes the barbarian hand pounce, sometimes not. Two weapon fighting gives an extra attack per feat per primary attack becuase thats how shanking works in real life. Also, thats how it was always supposed to be done and they always did it. I left for a dozen reasons. I had to convince him it was okay for me to get xp through a group vote. My head hurt through most of it too.


MrSin wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
It appears the game designers viewed them as melee monsters as well because the classes balance better if melee is their first resort.
That one hurts my head actually...

I'm not really buying that either actually. Especially since the balor could summon its marilith outside of combat, greater teleport into melee with somebody on the surprise round, then using its +11 unbuffed Initiative likely go first and full attack the poor flat-footed sap 7+ times in the opening round, slaying them if he rolls a 20 and confirms the hit due to every edged weapon its using being a vorpal weapon. >.>

And I also think that if monsters have to be stupid for a class to work it is the class that's broken, not the monster.


Cranefist wrote:
Bomanz wrote:

I must be the only one who has ever seen the fighter of the party kill most everything in the encounter, while the Wizard and Cleric provided support.

Guy with pointy things smacking them into the bad guys fixes encounters far better than anything else in pretty much EVERY game I have been a part of.

Countdown to "but but but personal experience doesnt matter in the face of such overwhelming theory!" argument in 3.........2.........

The theory is that the wizard always starts the fight. He summons a monster that is as good as the fighter. Then he hastes the monster and it wins.

Also, if a wizard casts haste on a fighter, anything the fighter kills, he shouldn't get credit for. Really, it is the wizard doing the killing.

I think giving credit for kills is stupid in a game about teamwork. If you don't have team work you are party waiting for TPK from any properly played CR appropriate encounter. Trying to do the fighters job when you have fighter in the group is waste of resources when as wizard you can be doing your job better.


A wizard can't do the fighters job of standing in the front line and taking blows while doing amazing DPR. They can however turn that into a superpower with magic. Haste is beautiful like that. They nerfed many of the abilities that let the other classes take his role(druid and cleric). No one is saying you don't need a fighter(even if i like barbarians and rangers more, what you play is totally up to you).

And yes, giving credit for kills gets ridiculous. I prefer event based level ups myself. "Hey GM is it cool if we level up now?" "Sure thing!" or "Hmm... Probably next week. I have something big planned."


Ashiel wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
It appears the game designers viewed them as melee monsters as well because the classes balance better if melee is their first resort.
That one hurts my head actually...

I'm not really buying that either actually. Especially since the balor could summon its marilith outside of combat, greater teleport into melee with somebody on the surprise round, then using its +11 unbuffed Initiative likely go first and full attack the poor flat-footed sap 7+ times in the opening round, slaying them if he rolls a 20 and confirms the hit due to every edged weapon its using being a vorpal weapon. >.>

And I also think that if monsters have to be stupid for a class to work it is the class that's broken, not the monster.

If you have monsters summoning other monsters before combat and you're not counting them as part of the CR of the encounter the monster is certainly broken whether or not any classes are or are not.

I'd say you've just proven that it's the monster that's broken unless the Balor is played only using the SLAs in the manner indicated in its description and never using them for any other combat purpose. It is described as using dominate when it wants to capture someone alive, teleport to escape, and it's other SLAs when it cannot get into melee. If it uses dominate in normal combat, greater teleport for any purpose but escape, and the other SLAs in any circumstance where melee is possible it is being played far above its CR.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Greater teleport has a passenger cargo limit of self plus 50 lbs only in this case.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Atarlost wrote:
If you have monsters summoning other monsters before combat and you're not counting them as part of the CR of the encounter the monster is certainly broken whether or not any classes are or are not.

The Balor and other monster's summoning ability is part of it's CR. The monsters that get summoned do not add to it.


That's silly. Of course a creature is going to use every tool at its disposal to accomplish its goals. Using its abilities to anything less than the maximum allowed by the circumstances means the Balor is being played far below it's Intelligence.

EDIT: just to put that Intellect into perspective. The Balor has an Int of 24, that's higher 3 points higher than the theoretical maximum for a human being in the history of ever (Using the level 6 absolute maximum possible for a real-world person estimate, starting with 20 and putting the 1 point in at level up.)


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LazarX wrote:
Atarlost wrote:
If you have monsters summoning other monsters before combat and you're not counting them as part of the CR of the encounter the monster is certainly broken whether or not any classes are or are not.
The Balor and other monster's summoning ability is part of it's CR. The monsters that get summoned do not add to it.

Not if the monster is summoned before combat. The spell is fair for its level if it's consuming a full round action. If the monster is pre-summoned no action is used and it should be counted as its own creature for the purpose of CR, at least at any caster level where the duration is comparable to the length of a typical combat.


So... does that mean a Caster NPC who Summons/Binds from his daily spell slots in advance before launching an assault against the party has his CR artificially raised?


MrSin wrote:
Also he doesn't have class features beyond that was my point. Its boring.

Smite evil is just numbers, if you look at it that way. Everything in the game is just numbers. The fighter gets weapon training and armour training. In what way is this more or less boring than favoured enemy, which is just numbers added to attacks, damage, and few skill checks?

MrSin wrote:
You can reflavor and you decide the fluff. The fighter being a blank slate with few skillpoints or features beyond smacking things is not that special.

That's like telling a graffiti artist that a blank wall is not anything special. It's not what it IS, it's what you can DO with it. Some classes are a huge picture that you can enjoy, others let you paint your own masterpiece.

MrSin wrote:
I don't understand how it is I guess. Those +1s to damage aren't that amazing either. Raging barbarian at level 1 already has a bigger to hit. Urban barbarian gives up nothing for that rage. With a courageous weapon he too has big +1s, but with rage powers and possibly superstitious line to bolster his poor saves.

Now that's more a balance question between the barbarian and the fighter. That said, level-on-level I've found the fighter keeps track with the barbarian on damage output pretty well, and he isn't spending resources to achieve it. He can generally also have a back-up plan for dealing with anything his favourite weapon doesn't fell, because he has the feats to pull it off.

MrSin wrote:
How does he get more out of his armor anyway? He doesn't get +1s to AC. He gets the ability to move in it better. He pays less of a tax for full plate, but you get more AC if you have over 16 dex and wear a mithril breastplate. He gets enough feats he can grab feats that add to his AC or crane style, but that can be expensive even for the fighter....

It's easy. Start with your fighter and his 14 dex. By 3rd level, he gets his first suit of plate armour for +9 AC. It normally allows him +1 from dexterity, but he has armour training 1 so he gets the full +2 to AC from his dexterity - +1 AC on anyone else wearing plate. Fast forward to high level and he has his belt of physical perfection +6 and that gives him 20 dex which is a +5 bonus, which his armour training 4 allows him to use completely. That's +4 AC on what the paladin could manage, assuming he has the dexterity.


It’s not a problem IMHO, it’s part of the System. Yes, at the higher levels Wizards will be more powerful than Warriors. But not many games are played at that level. At the lower levels, where more games are played, the Full-BAB classes can outdo a Spellcaster. This has been part of D&D since the original 3 Volume set. Trying to “fix” it came up with 4th ed, and we know how popular that was.

Now yes, in 3.5 this became more of a problem, when you adding in the “1 minute adventuring day” where they would T-Port in fully buffed, Nova, T-port out , rest, repeat for next encounter. When you added this tactics to the endless spells and splatbooks, even mid-level spellcasters started to “rule as gawds”. To a large extent, PF fixed the worst excesses of 3.5.

However, the basics, that of a 20th level Wizard being super powerful, but a 1st level Wizard being weaker than the tank- are still with us. And they should be.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
So... does that mean a Caster NPC who Summons/Binds from his daily spell slots in advance before launching an assault against the party has his CR artificially raised?

This is an issue where there ar not absolutes.

Lets say a group of evil wizards is angry and want to kill the party (4 Pc of 8th lvl).

They summon 15 Babau demons and then teleport the demons right next to the party. If the party manage to kill all the demons, does it sound reasonable that the party do not recieve any Xp just because the demons were summoned? Is this not a CR 12+ encounter?


That's a good question Nicos. One I've never had to deal with because I don't use EXP.


Dabbler wrote:
Stuff about fighters.

I don't know here you got the idea I'm against flavor and fluff. I was advocating it in my last post. I don't want to fight about fighters. My complaint was that I think they are boring. I see them as +1's, not -1's, and feats. If you like that, thats okay. Thats good. It means it works, even if I think it can be better.

As a side note, Its silly when you don't get xp for killing 100s of summoned mobs. Always bothers me in tabletops or video games. Thats one of the reasons I prefer event leveling. I might still be bothered if I had to fight 15 babaus from guys I can't see...

Keeping on track I wonder if a casters could just dispell the whole mess and if it would make the martials look silly for whacking them. Or how about if the casters just summon minions of their own! Minion army vs minion army!


kyrt-ryder wrote:
That's a good question Nicos. One I've never had to deal with because I don't use EXP.

Lets reprhase.

suppose that one of those wizards teleport alongside the babau. Said wiard is level 9th.

Is this a CR 8 encounter?


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Nicos wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
That's a good question Nicos. One I've never had to deal with because I don't use EXP.

Lets reprhase.

suppose that one of those wizards teleport alongside the babau. Said wiard is level 9th.

Is this a CR 8 encounter?

Yeah it is, assuming the wizard used summon monster V to summon the babau. EDIT: Using another example, if a Bard uses a wand of summon monster # when he notices the party is approaching so that he and his summon can catch them by surprise it's also not added to the CR.

The Balor is burning his 1/day resource to produce a monster. When and how he produces it are up to him and have no bearing on his CR. A balor is supposed to be the same CR as this:

CR 20 Encounter:
The few individual monsters who can actually take on a party do so because they have the means to prepare, and many of them have powerful summons. For example, solars are excessively powerful and could take on an entire party, but they can also gate more solars, chain-spam summon monster VII to call in celestial Tyrannosaurs to swallow PCs and their minions whole, etc, etc, etc, etc.
High level combat is NOT like low level combat. It is a tactical game of dropping nukes and bio-weapons on your enemies while shielding yourself with your star-wars program and hazmat teams. A high level encounter where enemies are using their full resources is a terrifying ordeal. A 20th level party vs a Solar for example is akin to the freakin' Ragnarok on the scale of extreme terror that it would incite in normal humans, as on this scale you are literally hurling meteors at people, calling upon earth shattering storms, and cracking the land and sundering buildings, while the legions of heaven and hell descend or crawl up from their realms to join the battle.

For example...

CR 20 encounter = 307,200 XP
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XP

This is a demon horde led by a Marilith, who commands their fiendish legions. The entire horde can greater teleport at will, and works together. Most of them can summon more demons as spell-like abilities. Here is a quick rundown of the types of things these demons might do.

Marilith uses telekinesis at range to hurl objects or even other demons at the party, or uses it to grapple an enemy magician. If she sees an opening, she will get in and attack an opponent with her tail and constrict them. Anyone who is constricted must make a DC 25 fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d8 rounds. At this point she moves on to the next foe, as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP. Blade barrier controls the battlefield and makes moving around a pain for those without teleportation.

The Nebasu wander around spamming enervation at targets, especially those in heavy armor, inflicting 1d4 negative levels with each ray that hits, no save. There are 6 of them, so that's a potential for 6-24 negative levels. Every negative level inflicts a -1 penalty to all saving throws. When they are out of rays, they will spam telekinesis to hurl objects at the party, or force DC 19 will saves or be hurled about like a rag doll.

The shadow demons seep through the floor and attack anyone who is on land using their blind-fight feat to ignore the miss %, and since they have cover you can't make AoOs against them, and retaliating against them is something of a pain, since you can't ready a full-attack against them. Your best bet is to take to the air. Each shadow demon of course attempts to summon another shadow demon with a 50% success rate, so 4 demons becomes 6 more than likely. They too can also stand back and spam telekinesis.

The succubi screech about the battlefield charm-bombing enemies and taking pot-shots at downed foes with vampiric touch when they're down. Of course, they all attempt to summon Babau demons with a 50% chance, so that adds another 2 acid-coated demons into the mix as cannon fodder. They also will not hesitate to dominate animal companions, mounts, and similar creatures. They're not difficult to kill, but they will generally spread out and distract the party, and can turn ethereal at-will, allowing them very good tactics. If desired, they can fly around and drop nets on the party to entangle them, as they can comfortably carry plenty of them and still greater teleport around the field.

The vrocks all begin a dance of ruin, spreading out into groups of 4 vrocks for maximum effectiveness. Every 3rd round, each group unleashes a 20d6 blast of lightning in a 100 ft. radius, which all of the demons are immune to. So if you don't break up or crowd control the vrocks, you will be eating up to 4 instances of 20d6 electricity damage, which is an average of 280 damage anywhere the radius's overlap. Alternatively, they can keep flying around the party screeching hellishly, forcing DC 21 saves vs stun for 1 round. Becoming stunned can easily mean death in this battle, and you can get hit by up to 15 of these at once, making saving a harry business. That's not counting the auto-damaging spores they can shake every 3 rounds.

The Glabrezu play hell with the party's counters. They possess at-will mirror image, making taking them out difficult, and they can function as spotters for the team, utilizing their constant true-seeing ability. Each can cast power word stun to screw over any foe with 150 HP or less. All can cast reverse gravity and dispel magic, and won't hesitate to shut down the magic items of the party, since a CL 16 dispel magic can shut down the vast majority of magic items easily. Finally they can drop unholy blight every round without fail, dealing 8d8 damage to all good creatures in an area and forcing saves vs nausea. If pushed into combat, they have a 15 ft. reach and decent natural attacks.

Dretch simply skulk about the battlefield dropping stinking clouds into the fray. All the demons are immune to the cloud, but it forces a 5% chance per round to become nauseated for 1d4 rounds, potentially causing some PCs to lose several rounds worth of actions. They also use it because the 20% concealment it provides to people inside the cloud completely negates sneak attack, and thus ruins any chance a rogue has to sneak attack their bosses. With five of them, they should also be able to summon an additional dretch, allowing up to 5-6 stinking clouds throughout the battle.

All of the above is assuming, of course, that none of them are using any of their treasures themselves (such as the marilith using any superior weapons, or clad in armor, or any of them wearing rings or cloaks or anything cool like that, which may indeed be part of their treasure and thus added to their statblock by the GM).

It's legit, yo.


I know what the rules say Ashiel, what you do not see is that this is one case when following the rule to the letter go agisnt it spirit. CR is about measuring the dificulty of an encounter. One 9th level wiard and 15 babaus (summoned or not) should neve be considered a CR 8 encounter.


MrSin wrote:
I don't know here you got the idea I'm against flavor and fluff. I was advocating it in my last post. I don't want to fight about fighters. My complaint was that I think they are boring. I see them as +1's, not -1's, and feats. If you like that, thats okay. Thats good. It means it works, even if I think it can be better.

I get where you are coming from - I just find a 'blank slate' a lot of fun. Mechanically, fighters DO have issues. I think they need better skills to be more flexible, but I don't think they need some special super-ability to change their combat ability - that side of fighters is fine. Possibly good Will saves is something that should also be considered.

But that's a feature of fighters, not of martials in general. The fighter - and most other martials - do their role of hitting things hard well.

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LazarX wrote:
MrSin wrote:

Thats... Not really a fighter buff. Thats something all martials got. Thats a martial buff. If Power attack or deadly aim were fighter only it would be a fighter buff, but at the moment that just helped everyone. The barbarian at midlevels has a +9 to 2 stats with a courageous weapon btw. Thats +4 to attack and +6 to damage with a two handed weapon. You rarely if ever run out of rage even when a barbarian is starting out.

Maybe because you played in campaigns where the DM ignored things such as movement rate that you didn't notice, but while the fighter's buffs weren't shout to the world, mountain splittng buffs, they were pretty important for all their subtlety.

1.Armor Training. At 7th level, Fighters are moving at full speed with heavy armor. This is a big deal. those two extra squares of movement can make a lot of difference. Ask your neighborhood barbarian about that.

2.Weapon Training, a hit and accuracy buff beyond BAB advancement, and it stacks with the relevant feats.

3.All of the other class based abilities. The 3.5 fighter had NO class abilities beyond his bonus feats.

1) You're right, two squares of movement is spiffy. The barbarian in his mithril BP waves bye-bye at the fighter with his 40 base move. If he wants to wear heavy armor (unlikely since he doesn't have the prof), he can pick up mithral armor and move at the same speed as the fighter!

In short, barbarian fast move, gained at level 1, is just as good as fighter armor training, and better, with mithral armor.
Mithral basically replaces armor training.
And as for the bump to the Dex limit...Celestial Armor gives Dex +4 limit. For 30k gp, you get mithral celestial plate and replace every single bit of a fighter's armor training!
And then his capstone armor training doesn't even stack with adamantine armor, so mithral is what he's going to use, hoping for that 24 dex to max out his mithral plate...or going for the 32 Dex and topping out celestial?

2) Weapon training provides a benefit about equal to raging...with a specific set of weapons. Raging provides the benefit with all weapons. And not only stacks, is actually enhanced by TWO different weapon effects (courageous and furious). Fighters do get Gloves of Duelling, but that just made it more a dip class.

3)All of the other abilities amounts to BRAVERY, which is the single most useless class ability in all of core. It doesn't even equal a good Will save.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Dabbler wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Also he doesn't have class features beyond that was my point. Its boring.

Smite evil is just numbers, if you look at it that way. Everything in the game is just numbers. The fighter gets weapon training and armour training. In what way is this more or less boring than favoured enemy, which is just numbers added to attacks, damage, and few skill checks?

MrSin wrote:
You can reflavor and you decide the fluff. The fighter being a blank slate with few skillpoints or features beyond smacking things is not that special.

That's like telling a graffiti artist that a blank wall is not anything special. It's not what it IS, it's what you can DO with it. Some classes are a huge picture that you can enjoy, others let you paint your own masterpiece.

MrSin wrote:
I don't understand how it is I guess. Those +1s to damage aren't that amazing either. Raging barbarian at level 1 already has a bigger to hit. Urban barbarian gives up nothing for that rage. With a courageous weapon he too has big +1s, but with rage powers and possibly superstitious line to bolster his poor saves.

Now that's more a balance question between the barbarian and the fighter. That said, level-on-level I've found the fighter keeps track with the barbarian on damage output pretty well, and he isn't spending resources to achieve it. He can generally also have a back-up plan for dealing with anything his favourite weapon doesn't fell, because he has the feats to pull it off.

MrSin wrote:
How does he get more out of his armor anyway? He doesn't get +1s to AC. He gets the ability to move in it better. He pays less of a tax for full plate, but you get more AC if you have over 16 dex and wear a mithril breastplate. He gets enough feats he can grab feats that add to his AC or crane style, but that can be expensive even for the fighter....
It's easy. Start with your fighter and his 14 dex. By 3rd level, he gets his first suit of plate armour for +9 AC. It normally allows him +1 from...

As I noted above, the paladin buys his fantastic looking suit of celestial plate, which gives him a +5 Dex limit. Since his and the fighter's dex is 20, their AC is the same.

Sucks when magic items take all the juice out of your class ability.

==Aelryinth


Nicos wrote:
I know what the rules say Ashiel, what you do not see is that this is one case when following the rule to the letter go agisnt it spirit. CR is about measuring the dificulty of an encounter. One 9th level wiard and 15 babaus (summoned or not) should neve be considered a CR 8 encounter.

Wait, wait. First you said a wizard and a babau. I presumed you meant that the wizard is summoning the babau with Summon Monster V (the highest level the wizard can cast). So how in the heck is the wizard summoning and teleporting 15 babau into a battle?

Meanwhile, to the party...
Dismissal or banishment and quit whining. You'll get the XP you deserve. Just wait 'till you run into the resetting Summon Monster trap in the next chamber and then we'll party to the screams to the burning dreams of those who whine about CR. :D


Actually, I'm pretty sure Diamond Soul is the single most useless class ability in core, probably followed by Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

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Diamond Soul is spell resistance. Half of all targeted spells at you simply fail, or even 40% if the enemy has SPell Penetration, is huge.

Tongue of Sun and Moon would be extremely useful if it was gained lower on, and languages weren't so easy to gain. Note that Monks can speak with ANY LIVING CREATURE. That includes animals, and also intelligent plants which might not have a language. Socially, it makes him the perfect diplomat, because language will not ever be a factor.

So, yeah, it has its uses. As a 17th level ability, distinctly underpowered.

but Bravery is useless from the start, and never gets better with time.

==Aelryinth


Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I know what the rules say Ashiel, what you do not see is that this is one case when following the rule to the letter go agisnt it spirit. CR is about measuring the dificulty of an encounter. One 9th level wiard and 15 babaus (summoned or not) should neve be considered a CR 8 encounter.

Wait, wait. First you said a wizard and a babau. I presumed you meant that the wizard is summoning the babau with Summon Monster V (the highest level the wizard can cast). So how in the heck is the wizard summoning and teleporting 15 babau into a battle?

Then you could read before answering. The original question was

"Lets say a group of evil wizards is angry and want to kill the party (4 Pc of 8th lvl).

They summon 15 Babau demons and then teleport the demons right next to the party. If the party manage to kill all the demons, does it sound reasonable that the party do not recieve any Xp just because the demons were summoned? Is this not a CR 12+ encounter?"

And then kyrt-ryder wrote
·
"That's a good question Nicos. One I've never had to deal with because I don't use EXP."

and then I anwered

"Lets reprhase.

suppose that one of those wizards teleport alongside the babau. Said wiard is level 9th.

Is this a CR 8 encounter?"

====================================================

obiously monster summoned by wizard using his turns and spending his spell slots in the proccess should not count in the CR, but that was not what I asked.


Atarlost wrote:
Actually, I'm pretty sure Diamond Soul is the single most useless class ability in core, probably followed by Tongue of the Sun and Moon.

Spell resistance is a double edge sword. But i do not see how this claim could be true.


Aelryinth wrote:
Diamond Soul is spell resistance. Half of all targeted spells at you simply fail, or even 40% if the enemy has SPell Penetration, is huge.

That's assuming caster levels equal to the party of course. If a PC-classed character has a CR equal to his level -1, that means you could easily run into caster levels wherein that's 25% failure without Spell Penetration, 15% with Spell Penetration or for an Elf, 5% for both.

Meanwhile party buffs either have to pass your spell resistance or cost you a standard action to shut down your SR so the party can buff you.


Nicos wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
I know what the rules say Ashiel, what you do not see is that this is one case when following the rule to the letter go agisnt it spirit. CR is about measuring the dificulty of an encounter. One 9th level wiard and 15 babaus (summoned or not) should neve be considered a CR 8 encounter.

Wait, wait. First you said a wizard and a babau. I presumed you meant that the wizard is summoning the babau with Summon Monster V (the highest level the wizard can cast). So how in the heck is the wizard summoning and teleporting 15 babau into a battle?

Then you could read before answering. The original question was

"Lets say a group of evil wizards is angry and want to kill the party (4 Pc of 8th lvl).

They summon 15 Babau demons and then teleport the demons right next to the party. If the party manage to kill all the demons, does it sound reasonable that the party do not recieve any Xp just because the demons were summoned? Is this not a CR 12+ encounter?"

And then kyrt-ryder wrote
·
"That's a good question Nicos. One I've never had to deal with because I don't use EXP."

and then I anwered

"Lets reprhase.

suppose that one of those wizards teleport alongside the babau. Said wiard is level 9th.

Is this a CR 8 encounter?"

====================================================

obiously monster summoned by wizard using his turns and spending his spell slots in the proccess should not count in the CR, but that was not what I asked.

Fair enough. And NO, it's not a CR 8 encounter. But not because of the summoned monsters being worth XP. But because you've got 14 other wizards throwing spells at the party! You've got 15 wizards who are all fighting the party, though apparently only one of them cares to fight the party directly. At best this is an ad-hoc situation. But you're basically creating a rather contrived CR 17 encounter where the baddies are apparently sandbagging the party (you've got 15 wizards participating in the encounter but 14 of them are only throwing out 1 spell so...).

Clearly the encounter is worth more XP because you're being attacked by 15 wizards (I'm still trying to figure out how 1 wizard is teleporting 15 demons with him given you can only touch like 6 other people or some-such). It would be worth more XP just as if all 15 of those wizards just decided to drop a nice fat empowered fireball on the party during the surprise round all at once and then left.


Diamond Soul is bad because it excludes you from party buffs in combat just as effectively as it does from offensive spells. With the addition that because you have monk saves already, the protection it offers is relatively less useful to you than to most other classes (you probably would have made the save anyway), while because you are a monk and have trouble hitting, missing out on things like Haste or Good Hope or the other offense improving buffs is particularly bad for you. It's like a double-edged sword that cuts you just fine, but only parries the stuff you were probably going to dodge anyway.

That said, in my experience of playing a (high level, with Bravery +4) fighter, Bravery has indeed been extremely underwhelming. In about three and a half years of weekly play it has made the difference between passing and failing a fear save IIRC twice.

Hurray...

I wonder how often a paladin's +zillions vs everything would have rocked the house over that same time period.


kyrt-ryder wrote:


Meanwhile party buffs either have to pass your spell resistance or cost you a standard action to shut down your SR so the party can buff you.

The same can be said about superstitionand nobody complains.


So it would be a CR 8 encounter if it was one wizard using scrolls or a wand?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
So... does that mean a Caster NPC who Summons/Binds from his daily spell slots in advance before launching an assault against the party has his CR artificially raised?

This is an issue where there ar not absolutes.

Lets say a group of evil wizards is angry and want to kill the party (4 Pc of 8th lvl).

They summon 15 Babau demons and then teleport the demons right next to the party. If the party manage to kill all the demons, does it sound reasonable that the party do not recieve any Xp just because the demons were summoned? Is this not a CR 12+ encounter?

The guidelines do give you wiggle room to adjust the effective APL of an encounter for special situations. Then again, if you the DM are putting up a team of archmages against a group of 8th level PC's, It really doesn't matter what you set the APL to as far as this execution goes.


LazarX wrote:
Nicos wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
So... does that mean a Caster NPC who Summons/Binds from his daily spell slots in advance before launching an assault against the party has his CR artificially raised?

This is an issue where there ar not absolutes.

Lets say a group of evil wizards is angry and want to kill the party (4 Pc of 8th lvl).

They summon 15 Babau demons and then teleport the demons right next to the party. If the party manage to kill all the demons, does it sound reasonable that the party do not recieve any Xp just because the demons were summoned? Is this not a CR 12+ encounter?

The guidelines do give you wiggle room to adjust the effective APL of an encounter for special situations. Then again, if you the DM are putting up a team of archmages against a group of 8th level PC's, It really doesn't matter what you set the APL to as far as this execution goes.

That is more or less my point. The fact that a monster is summoned is not an excuse to artificially lower the CR of an enounter.


Coriat wrote:
I wonder how often a paladin's +zillions vs everything would have rocked the house over that same time period.

I have a kind of answer for you actually. My brothers 20 charisma paladin is saved by it on a regular basis, 7 wisdom. If he's not outright immune for being an assimar, or for being a paladin in the first place(immunity to fear and everyone else gets +4 to fear saves. Blows bravery right out of the water right?). I'd say it has once per session becuase you get saving throws thrown at you regularly. Creatures with multiple attacks that deliver disease and some other nasty? Good thing he has have my fort + Charisma + 16 con and am out right immune to disease anyway. I don't know how often becuase I don't play with him, but when I watch that +5 saves him all the time.


What disparity? If it were not for the melees, who would carry my treasure out of the dungeon? =)


Atarlost wrote:
So it would be a CR 8 encounter if it was one wizard using scrolls or a wand?

Given that it would mean he had less wealth to use against the party otherwise? Darn skippy. That's of course assuming you also consider that by the time you got to babau #8 they're beginning to vanish so you're just wasting scrolls/charges. Not to mention that it would cost 16,875 worth of scrolls to summon 15 babau for 9 rounds each. A 9th level NPC wizard has a whopping 10,050 gp worth of gear in its entirety (the combined value of ALL of his gear).

So y'know, this example is just really stupid... >.>

If you introduce contrived situations that break the rules for magic, ignore NPC gold values and give him significantly more gold than he should possess, and begin spamming scrolls that you can't afford (legally you cannot even have wands of summon monster V unless you include summoners), and otherwise ignore pretty much everything resembling the books concerning encounters...

Then no, it's not a CR 8 encounter. Nor would it be whether the summons are involved or not.


Nicos wrote:
That is more or less my point. The fact that a monster is summoned is not an excuse to artificially lower the CR of an enounter.

That is more or less my point. The fact that a monster is summoned is not an excuse to artificially raise the CR of an encounter.


Widow of the Pit wrote:
What disparity? If it were not for the melees, who would carry my treasure out of the dungeon? =)

I know right? Henchmen demand pay and aren't quiet so loyal, and the unseen servant army can only carry so much. I guess we could start using mounts, I was getting tired of wasting willpower on floating anyway.

Scarab Sages

Widow of the Pit wrote:
What disparity? If it were not for the melees, who would carry my treasure out of the dungeon? =)

One reason why most of my casters have a "Floating Disk" spell memorized or readied. Carry a large amount of sacks, and then float them out of there.

The OTHER spell I have used is Resilient Sphere. Create the sphere around your target treasure, and float it the heck out of there.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

So, Diamond Soul is useless because you MIGHT have friendly spells fail on you, but you get the effect of a miss chance against all sorts of hostile magic, all the time?

If Spell Resistance was so useless for a PC, they would give it out to more classes. But they don't. Magic is one of the great dangers of the d20 universe, and flat 25-50% or higher miss chances before you even roll a save are an awesome defense...it's like having concealment against magic! Spell Resistance is pretty powerful, very important, and all you have to do is plan around it in the case of party buffs.

Parties regularly fight creatures with caster levels below their own, in which case Spell Resistance becomes even more important. And guess what? Caster levels top out at 20, and you get Diamond Soul at 13th. Basically, with CR+4 Boss encounters, you'll always have the 30% miss chance, and at later levels, it only gets BETTER once you're 17th+.

And there's the counter-argument to in-combat buffs...he has an excellent chance of simply ignoring mass AoE spells from the party casters of his level, and not even needing to save! "Target the monk with the nuke!" and all that.

Bravery...riiiiight.

==Aelryinth


Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
That is more or less my point. The fact that a monster is summoned is not an excuse to artificially lower the CR of an enounter.
That is more or less my point. The fact that a monster is summoned is not an excuse to artificially raise the CR of an encounter.

That is fair and true. The DM have to contemplate the whole situation and then make his best call about the CR using the guidelines given in the book.

The Babau example was not accidental, it is more or less and encounter that get posted in this boards, If I recall correctly the DM TPK the party and his exuse was that the "RULES" about summoned mosnters and CRs were on his side.


Spell resistance isn't useless, it's detrimental. Maybe you get 30% miss chance from enemy casters (if they're casting something that faces SR) but you face 50% miss chance from your own party. 50% chance that that Heal spell will fail and you will die horribly. 50% chance of no haste.

Worse than useless.


Aelryinth wrote:
Sucks when magic items take all the juice out of your class ability.

True, but I'm used to it, playing monks a lot.


Aelryinth wrote:
So, Diamond Soul is useless because you MIGHT have friendly spells fail on you, but you get the effect of a miss chance against all sorts of hostile magic, all the time?

Perhaps the parties you play with buff each other a lot less than the parties I do, then. In my game, friendly buff magic is used in combat in nearly every fight. I would say friendly buff magic is used by our party five to six times more frequently than hostile spells are cast against it - pretty much every single combat sees a Haste and a Good Hope, at least, and tough ones break out much more stuff - heal spells, tactical teleportations (or teleportations to retreat), energy resistances, gallant inspirations, and so on.

I could see spell resistance being useful in a solo game or a party that doesn't use friendly magics on each other, though - but outside of those scenarios, I do regard it as not only not helpful, but actively harmful.

And this is distracting I think from the point that we both agree that Bravery is super lacking in actual mechanical usefulness.


Nicos wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Nicos wrote:
That is more or less my point. The fact that a monster is summoned is not an excuse to artificially lower the CR of an enounter.
That is more or less my point. The fact that a monster is summoned is not an excuse to artificially raise the CR of an encounter.

That is fair and true. The DM have to contemplate the whole situation and then make his best call about the CR using the guidelines given in the book.

The Babau example was not accidental, it is more or less and encounter that get posted in this boards, If I recall correctly the DM TPK the party and his exuse was that the "RULES" about summoned mosnters and CRs were on his side.

Well the thing is those rules weren't on his side. Those creatures were not part of the wizard's resources and/or abilities, they were the abilities of 14 other wizards. At the very least it demands an ad-hoc adjustment to CR, but you really can't fall back on the rules as an excuse for that (and I say this as someone who is downright Lawful Evil when it comes to challenges). :P

Fair is fair afterall. ^.^

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Note to self: Melee-Reach Create Pit sounds like an amusing Rage Power. Hit the ground so hard it creates a pit and forces a reflex save to opponents in range.
Yell so loud that a dimension door opens up in front of you?
Hey if you're going to go that far, why not Scream so hard you open a Plane Shift portal

Okay, I couldn't find a clip with the 'greater teleport through sheer will' part that comes before, but I just have go back and link it anyway for epicness.

LET'S SEE YA GRIT THOSE TEETH!


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Perhaps the original poster could search on and pull up one of the dozens of multi-hundred comment threads on the issue instead of kicking off a new thread that will exhume the fine-grained dust that was once the dead horse of this debate and proceed to beat that fine-grained dust into finer-grained powder...

>wipes tears of laughter away, sneezes on Dead Horse Dust<

AD, you never fail the concise-yet-hilarious pointy bits...


Bomanz wrote:
Widow of the Pit wrote:
What disparity? If it were not for the melees, who would carry my treasure out of the dungeon? =)

One reason why most of my casters have a "Floating Disk" spell memorized or readied. Carry a large amount of sacks, and then float them out of there.

The OTHER spell I have used is Resilient Sphere. Create the sphere around your target treasure, and float it the heck out of there.

Resilient Sphere is stationary, I thought? O.o


Yeah, the sphere specifically cannot be moved by outside force or by the struggle by those within. Would keep other people from stealing your treasure at least? and definitely keep it safe!

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