New Gm, New players... Any old advice?


Advice


Me and 3 of my friends have decided to immerse ourselves in the Pathfinder world. We have an idea of how things work, having watched YouTube vids and seeing high school friends play (10-12 years ago). I've decided to take the role of GM, and I have already bought GM Guide, Core Rulebook, and Rise of Runelords... and I am overwhelmed. How can I, as an inexperienced GM, set up this game so that inexperienced PCs will want to continue? Having talked to them, I can tell you that one wants interesting story plots and brain puzzles (he loves star wars novels and game of thrones); the other wants dungeon crawls, combat, and loot (he is in film making school and enjoys action flicks); and the third is not really excited but is willing to give it a shot because the rest of us are, I think that he will be more interested in story plots though. I should also state that none of them have played "make believe" for 20+ years (I, however, have 2 boys and have taken up playing "make believe" again). I would hate to have spent money on something we're not going to try again.

Also, off topic: Is there a site where people submit their homemade handouts, for example, the drawings in the journal found on Tsuto Kaijitsu in the Burnt Offerings part of Rise of the Runelords?

Liberty's Edge

First, relax.

If you are running RoTRL the first encounter pretty much runs itself. Just draw up the board, get everyone talking and then when it is time...well you read the first encounter you know what to do.

If your players make interesting characters, everything will flow from that.

The trick of the GM is remembering how much you know that they don't. If you mess up, they have no idea you messed up unless you tell them.

After the first encounter, they will be interested in what happened and what is happening next. The first book is at least 5 or 6 sessions, which is when you will start getting your legs under you...which is good because it gets harder as you go up in level.

But for now, it's first level, no one can do much, make sure you understand what is going on, don't be afraid to drift from the book (you know everything, so you can always find a way to get them back to the book) and everything else will follow.

Worst case, finish the session and post on here for advice. RoTRL is a lot of fun, just relax and see what your players come up with.


I can't answer all your questions, but the main thing is to have fun with it. You're all new to it, so just prepare as best you can and tell a good story (not just you, but all of you).

If you come upon some rules snag, just wing it in a way that keeps things exciting, then look it up later. You'll learn the rules as you use them, and it'll get easier and faster as you do.

Grand Lodge

One of the best pieces of advice I can offer is to stay alert, relaxed, and flexible. Your players may do things you don't expect, and that may require you to think on your feet. A great man once said 'The first casualty in any engagement is always the same: the plan.' It may very well turn out to be so as you RP. When in doubt, improvise. Stay relaxed, have fun, and try to work with the others to make it fun. After all, playing a tabletop RPG isn't like an online PvP game, where everyone's out to slaughter everyone else.


To add to Gungnir's comments, being a GM is about being interactive. You're not just a storyteller, informing the players what's happening. You're more like the director of a play, setting the stage for your actors - the players - to do their thing.

Work with them, interact w/them. PLAY with them. One of the best examples someone gave me early on was if your players says "My character Intimidates the goblin." ask them HOW he's being intimidating.

That works for combat too. "I shoot the goblin." says the crossbow-wielding dwarf rogue. "what feats are you using; how are you shooting at the thing?" I know that sounds wierd, but even if their response is just "with my crossbow, using Precise Shot" you can then give them the description of "picking your target out of the panicking crowd, you close one eye, exhale, and launch, sending the bolt whizzing harmlessly over the shoulder of a cowering townsman to embed itself in the soft exposed belly of the goblin as it raises a rusty dogchopper for a final blow"

I'm not saying all this so that you can present stunning visuals or be super descriptive. Rather you want your players, even at first level, to feel their characters are good at something, doing cool things. I hesitate to use the phrase "make them feel special" but realize that without them, there's no game, just as much as without you there's no game for them.

In short play WITH them, not AT them.


Yea just have fun, I have been a dm for over 10 years and a player for 20 years.... wow i am that old :( .... like the other people said one thing you will find out that the players will run with a small clue or at lest what they think is a clue for the campaign, just let them an slowly take them back to the campaign. Remember people like to feel that they have free will. But use this forum for help, you will find alot of help here.


i was recently in the same exact spot as u. ill tell ya 2 things that i did that built up my confidence. one with rise of the runelords, i had everyone start on the premade quest from the beginners box and tied it in with the campaign. The beginners box has a premade where basically all the steps are made for ya and u get a good idea on how things roll. Second thing i do is i use my kids as guinie pigs. i will test it out on them first and see how things play out and use that as a way to see what needs to be improved or added or taken out.
just have fun and relax. it can get daunting but things will start flowing easier as u go.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Some more advice...
1) Read the section that you will be playing through ahead of time, so you know what is supposed to happen, and what is supposed to be around each corner. That way you aren't suprised by twists, and can imporvise better when the players do something that wasn't thought of.
2) Be prepared. Get the monster stats for the game ready, and calculated. Look up whatevr spells or abilities they have so you know exactly what they can do, and how often. Check out the feats they have, and how that changes to hit bonuses and damage.
3) Check out the messageboard here for the Rise of the Runelords, and see what other GMs have done. People have added encounters, made great handouts and maps of some places, and have given advice about how to handle several problems already. Use their wisdom. And don't forget to ask if you have questions. These people can come up with all sorts of inventive plots and ideas.
4) Modify things to have fun. Sometimes, you might change something just to have more fun. Say, an extra goblin that's is going to fall in that barrel of rain water or set himself on fire (just for the players to laugh at). There are a lot of places where some down time is had, and you can add little adventures or subplots (or continue subplots) in these gaps. Sandpoint is full of interesting people, make sure you use them.

Extra: Rise of the Runelords is made for 4 player, and you have 3. This means you can add an NPC in if you wish (to cover something that the players don't have). Just make a plain straight forward character for the NPC, and keep it in the background.
Level characters up when it is time to level up. If they don't have enough Exp, either get them some more, or just give it to them. (Or better yet, don't worry about Exp, and just give them the level when the adventure says they should have the level).


Yea I dont use exp any more I just tell them to lv up when it feels right. But whats nice about rise of the runelords it tells you when the party should lv up.


Anharat wrote:

Me and 3 of my friends have decided to immerse ourselves in the Pathfinder world. We have an idea of how things work, having watched YouTube vids and seeing high school friends play (10-12 years ago). I've decided to take the role of GM, and I have already bought GM Guide, Core Rulebook, and Rise of Runelords... and I am overwhelmed. How can I, as an inexperienced GM, set up this game so that inexperienced PCs will want to continue? Having talked to them, I can tell you that one wants interesting story plots and brain puzzles (he loves star wars novels and game of thrones); the other wants dungeon crawls, combat, and loot (he is in film making school and enjoys action flicks); and the third is not really excited but is willing to give it a shot because the rest of us are, I think that he will be more interested in story plots though. I should also state that none of them have played "make believe" for 20+ years (I, however, have 2 boys and have taken up playing "make believe" again). I would hate to have spent money on something we're not going to try again.

Also, off topic: Is there a site where people submit their homemade handouts, for example, the drawings in the journal found on Tsuto Kaijitsu in the Burnt Offerings part of Rise of the Runelords?

First and foremost welcome to the game. I hope you and your friends enjoy the game. The great thing about pathfinder is you can have story, and puzzles AND combat and dungeons. There is room for just about everything in moderation.

In terms of being overwhelmed, you might want to take a step back and a deep breath. Rise of the runelords is an amazing adventure. But you may not want to dive into a long adventure path with your first foray into the game. The pathfinder begginner box is actually custom designed for people in your situation (where everyone is new to the game). You might want to try a few sessions with that, and then migrate to the full game. It contains simplified rules and what most think is a better graphic approach to explaining the rules of the game. That might help keep you from being overwhelmed right at the start.

That said, there are a TON of resources for rise of the runelords. Seriously, it is the most supported adventure in the history of the game. There are dedicated forums for each of the adventure paths. There you will find lots and LOTS of commentary and advice, and you can feel free to ask questions here. You will get enthusiastic responses from developers and fans alike (assuming you dont just see the answer to your question in the threads that are stickied for each adventure).

In terms of handouts, there are a TON for rise of the runelords. This thread has links to what you are looking for, though you will have to dig through it to find the updated links.


If you can't figure the best way to deal with an unexpected combat situation, use the actor's CMB vs. the opposer's CMD. It's an easy mechanic for things you can't figure out.

If something's easier or harder than normal and you can't find/think of a specific rule to modify the dice, default to a +2 or -2 adjustment to the roll.


I've got two pieces of advice, both about problems that new GMs always seem to run into at some point.

The first is falling into the trap of "GM vs. player". Many times, GMs get frustrated that they're losing every encounter, and start coming up with ways to make things harder for the PCs. It's okay to challenge them, but don't start thinking you need to beat them. You're essentially the god of their little world, and if you decide they need to die, they absolutely will, which is no fun for anyone.
The thing to remember here is that you're not here to 'win' the fights, you 'win' by keeping everybody entertained. That's the GM's primary job.

The second is when the players go off the rails, doing something outside of what the planned adventure (in this case, the Rise of the Runelords AP) has intended. A few people have commented already on this, but here's my take; you need to roll with it.
It's understandable that you don't want to do much in the way of making things up your first time out, so you've got two ways out of this on this one. First, you can let your players know that you'd prefer they try to stick to the plot whenever that's reasonable. Just be honest, they all know everybody's new, so this shouldn't be a problem, at least for a while.
Second, you can figure out ways to gently nudge them back to the plot. If they wander around to random villages, the townsfolk there can be whispering rumors of all the bad stuff going on back where they're supposed to be. You can visit nightmares on them when they sleep, indicating of the terrible presence waking up back in Sandpoint. Things like that.

And, of course - have fun! That's the point, after all, and if you're not enjoying yourself, neither will your players.

EDIT: Oh, and what Kolokotroni said: Giving the beginner box a try might be a wonderful idea for you guys, but RotR is extremely awesome.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I will echo the comments of others here.

ciretose wrote:
First, relax.

This.

ciretose wrote:
The trick of the GM is remembering how much you know that they don't. If you mess up, they have no idea you messed up unless you tell them.

And this. This little tidbit here is among the most useful advice any GM can receive.

Mark Hoover wrote:
In short play WITH them, not AT them.

And this. Put this with everything Viscount K said, cos the game is designed to be interactive, not you v. them.

Most important thing, said by nearly everyone who's posted here, is to have fun. And to ask your players if they are having fun.

Welcome to the game!

Grand Lodge

Another good thing to do is use a bit of lateral thinking before the game starts. If there are some key encounters where the PC's are supposed to do this or that in just such a way, consider what will happen if they think up different solutions and decide to use them.

As one example, I had some players in a game of Star Wars RPG that encountered a couple of bounty hunters who'd been set on their tails by an enemy. One of them backstabbed the other so as not to have to split the reward. But it was up to the players what to do with the injured bounty hunter after the other one made a hasty escape. They could have killed her, and had a vengeful brother pursuing them. But instead, they took her aboard their ship and healed her, then tried to get to know what the whole deal was about. Because they treated her with decency and kindness and not like a Gitmo prisoner, she actually joined the party as an NPC.

So, keeping variable outcomes to encounters and decisions in mind can really enrich your game.


One of the things I like to do when I GM is to allow the Players to ATTEMPT just about anything provided they can explain how they want to do it, then make them roll the skill checks accordingly.

To illustrate my point, I was GMing The Frostfur Captives PFS scenario, during which the PCs arrive at two guarded watchtowers. One of the PCs plays a Ninja, who was sneaking around the watchtowers, and trying to scale the walls to get up to the top. To make a long story short, the enemies, which had been up on top of the watchtower were now at the base of the tower, while this ninja player had climbed about 30 feet high. The ninja decided that he wanted to jump off the side of the building, perform a flying attack on the enemy, then use the enemy as a cushion to break his fall.

What I decided was that he would need to pass: 1) A DC 15 Acrobatics check to jump the 15 feet in the horizontal direction to be over his target (he was considered to have a running start per Ninja Ki Pool), if he didn't pass this, then he wouldn't be able to make an attack or attempt to land on the enemy due to not getting enough distance; then, 2) perform an attack roll versus the enemy's AC (the enemy was aware of him), if he missed he could still attempt to land on the enemy; then 3) perform an attack roll, using the ranged attack rules, against the enemy's Touch AC (think of this as the player "throwing themselves" onto the enemy) to fall onto the enemy instead of the ground. Had the player been successful, he would have been on the ground, gotten to attack, imparted the falling damage he would have otherwise taken onto the enemy, and have looked totally badass.

The player rolled a 1 on his Acrobatics check, botched the jump, landed prone next to the enemy, incurred an attack of opportunity, and took all applicable falling damage. He proceeded to play dead using an opposed Bluff check to fool the enemy into not attacking him further.

What I am trying to get at here, and I deeply apologize for my long-windedness, is to use the rules as written as guidelines instead of law. Your players will greatly enjoy the feeling of success when one of their ridiculous plans works out, and everyone gets a good laugh when it blows up in their faces.

Dark Archive

I would also like to add that you should always be learning. It's easy to get lazy as a GM and having seen a new gm who has *no* interest in the rules, its utterly sucks as a player who is learning who can't get any of the rules to be followed.

It's fine for now since you are all new to it, but there will be a point where someone other than you is going to take an interest in their character and learn more...or wants to know how something works and not being willing to figure it out (either right then and there or after the session is over with some time to research) can create a mounting wall of knowledge that could have been but never was.

A great way to learn the rules as a new gm is to build an interesting npc (or look at your players character sheets) and once you see some aspect of it that you don't understand or don't know how it works, go find out that one thing and make it a point to get that under your belt.

And once you've had a couple of chances to practice it in game and make sure you understand it, move on. Your knowledge base will rapidly grow and before long, you'll feel less overwhelmed because you'll understand more and know here to find the answers to things you don't understand.


I'd actually suggest that you invest in the Beginner Box and run that first to get a feel for the game. It's less complicated and has a lesser number of options so that you and your players aren't so overwhelmed.

After running that, I'd go on to the Rise of the Runelords AP. There are also free modules and free scenarios you can run which are shorter adventures.

I've always felt that for all new players they should take steps:
1) Beginner Box - An introduction to the game and how it works
2) Modules or Scenarios - Shorter Adventures used mostly during game days at events as well as Pathfinder Society Games.
3) Adventure Paths - Complete Campaigns which are already written out for you to take your players from levels 1-20
4) Home-brew Campaigns - Complete campaign of your own devising which means you have built the world, populated it with NPCs, have the encounters planned out, etc, etc, etc.

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