A discussion on the clear spindle ioun stone's Resonant effects and legality in PFS

[Ill_Made_Knight]

After reading the other discussion on the clear spindle ioun stone's Resonant effects I thought it was about time that we had this discussion as a community. I believe it differs from the previous thread because it is not talking about what it does but why it should even be in the campaign in general.

The clear spindle ioun stone's resonant effects, is in a word, bonkers and/or broken. There is no other item with that cost that does that ability. You don't even have to activate it, it is ALWAYS ON.

I mean you completely shut down a good number of Manipulator bosses, thus we don't really feel the weight of their CR or challenge. For example, Succubus are not even the least bit of a challenge if you take away dominate person, suggestion, charm monster.

And if anyone thinks I have not been on the receiving end of dominate person, we had a 10 level Magus dominated by a vampire, who proceeded to decimate our entire team. It was a travesty but one of the best games I have ever had.

On top of that, I have seen many people say "Well screw wisdom, I just get the clear spindle and I am fine." There should never be an item like that, which allows you to dump a stat and for 4,000 gold be able to block out one of the most powerful mechanics in the game.

Now, what I am going to put forward seems silly, but please Mike, Mark, and John can we just get rid of this item all together or Errata it in the following: X/day as a standard action.

I know you will have an uproar but the item has no place in organized play because most people auto buy it when they can. The reason most people don't have it, is because they don't even know it exist and when they do they auto buy it.

Please let us be constructive, and charitable towards one another in a helpful discussion.

[Jiggy]

How do you feel about Weapon Finesse and the agile weapon property?

[Nani O. Pratt]

I believe that Mike, Mark, and John have spoken on this subject. They just had an FAQ, and clarified it in the thread. Repeatedly. Just saying.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I’ve known about it for 2 years now. I have 2 level 12 guys, and one level 11.1 guy and one 7.2 guy and one level 5.2 guy, and so on.

None of my characters have one, and of the 5 listed, only two have dumped wisdom.

It isn’t an auto buy in my mind. If you want it, fine, but I have had my characters survive just fine without one.

[Ill_Made_Knight]

Nani Pratt wrote:

I believe that Mike, Mark, and John have spoken on this subject. They just had an FAQ, and clarified it in the thread. Repeatedly. Just saying.

Thank you Nani, I have read that thread, which as I said, is different from this one.

If Mark, Mike and John say, "Hey guys, this item is here to stay, we're not going to get rid of it, we're not going to change it end of discussion." I will submit to the campaign leadership and be done with this.

I was hoping that since they adjusted the price/temp band bracers of the eagle, we could at least look at this far more broken item, which is not just for a niche weapon user, but for all classes.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

How is the item broken? It just got a major nerf to how many people interpreted it. Mind you I always interpreted it the way it currently is, but to many folks it just got a huge nerf.

And how is this even close to bracers of aspect of the falcon which was essentially 3-1/2 feats, always on, for 4,000gp?

The number of BBEG’s that actually can dominate, charm person, or suggestion isn’t that huge. And now that its clarified that it only works against spells where the caster can exert control, it is even less useful. At best, this is a “be prepared in case of the worst” item for 4,000gp, and the user has to own Seekers of Secrets to use it.

[WalterGM]

Points of clarification - Bracers of Falcons Aim are presently not PFS legal - pending some pricing concerns.

Second, the spindle also negates a harpy's captivating song, which is present several games.

That said - the item isn't broken. But it is an item that only ever benefits PCs, which is why I think it is dumb. I think that if there was one that negated good or neutral mind controlling, and bad guys had it with the frequency PCs do (locally, all PCs seem to have one), players would be as frustrated as some GMs are getting. And for those games where the BBEG does specialize in charm and is evil, seeing PCs with this item is often a let down.

[DrSwordopolis]

From my observations of the local (Redmond, WA) crowd, almost everyone has a clear spindle by the time they hit 9th level. The exceptions are characters with great will saves (Clerics, Pallies, and the like) or non-humanoid characters. For that matter, at the higher level tables, one of the initial checks before starting an adventure is "Okay, everyone have a clear spindle?"

I think the item is drastically under-costed for its effect and should be banned/re-costed, but I expect that the local environment varies significantly from region to region and other people may not see this as an issue. In the Bracers of Falcon's Aim debate, one of the key arguments was that it was a no-brainer for just about any character that could use it. The same argument is commonly made by the more experienced players in the local scene.

The item is simply too good and trivializes too many high-tier encounters. For example, of the 7-11 scenarios in Season 4, half of them have encounters that are made dramatically easier if the party (or at least the weak will-save types) has them.

[Nani O. Pratt]

Undead, constructs, oozes, and vermin get it for free.

Knight, I do not mean to be silly, but obviously they looked at it just now. They don't need to come in and say "this item is okay" in forum post for every item that someone has a complaint about. That's what additional resources and the FAQ do. Which is what they just did.

[nosig]

DrSwordopolis wrote:

From my observations of the local (Redmond, WA) crowd, almost everyone has a clear spindle by the time they hit 9th level. The exceptions are characters with great will saves (Clerics, Pallies, and the like) or non-humanoid characters. For that matter, at the higher level tables, one of the initial checks before starting an adventure is "Okay, everyone have a clear spindle?"

I think the item is drastically under-costed for its effect and should be banned/re-costed, but I expect that the local environment varies significantly from region to region and other people may not see this as an issue. In the Bracers of Falcon's Aim debate, one of the key arguments was that it was a no-brainer for just about any character that could use it. The same argument is commonly made by the more experienced players in the local scene.

The item is simply too good and trivializes too many high-tier encounters. For example, of the 7-11 scenarios in Season 4, half of them have encounters that are made dramatically easier if the party (or at least the weak will-save types) has them.

I actually have 10 PCs, 7 above 5th level. None have this item.

While 2 of those do have good saves, 5 do not.

One has been "dominated" once, and "confused" twice (interestingly enough my dominated one kind of frustrated the monster, as she had no effective attacks and did little other than waste the monsters actions...).

With the current changes I am even less likely to buy it.

Several times my PCs have used wands of Prot. From Evil to "shut down" domination effects - perhaps that wand should be banned until it can be costed correctly? Wait, they also sometimes prepare the spell...

edit: in fact, the last time a PC of mine used the wand of PfE, it was on a dominated NPC - not someone able to use the Ioun Stone...

[Cire]

You are hilarious nosig. You forget that the will save from a level 1 wand is pretty low though. To build upon that, you can buy those wands with prestige and never have to spend a single copper piece. Plus you can get them at level 1.

I think the always on aspect is actually not all its cracked up to be.

"Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect does not automatically dispel it."

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

Nope, I'm good with it. It should stay.

The Pathfinder Society, in game, is allowed to have a few tricks up its sleeve(s).

[redward]

1) Not everyone would choose this over other Ioun Stones

I have one level 12 character and one level 11 character (the only of my characters that can currently afford such an item). The 12 doesn't have it, because the resonant powers of the Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone were more important to her.

2) Just because someone has one, doesn't mean they're dumping their Will Saves
The level 11, a Barbarian, does have it, because she knows that she could represent a significant physical threat to her companions. She also has +11 to Will Saves against Spells and SLAs and +13 against enchantments while Raging. So it's not exactly like I ignored Will Saves because of the stone.

3) This is an item that prevents PvP
Of the people I know who have one, almost all have it because they do insane damage and are afraid of killing a party member. I think that's a good thing to encourage.

4) Not everyone in the party will necessarily have one
And if they do...well, just like PCs, NPCs should avoid being one-trick ponies. Use something else.

[kinevon]

I, like nosig, have a boatload of PCs, 14 in my case. All of them are at least 2nd level, all the way up to my 12th level archer.

That 12th level archer is the only one of my PCs I can state, off the top of my head, who has got a clear spindle Ioun stone, and has it in his wayfinder.

Just some information on him:
10 level fighter, 1 level cleric, 1 level ranger, Wis 12. A fairly good Will save, in other words.

To be honest, I was part of the camp that believed teh reference to Protection from Evil was for the mental domination definition, not the specific "only Evil casters are neutered" version, since the defniition of the effect is given in PfE only, with the others referencing PfE.

Equally, IMO, if they had wanted it to only be against a specific alignment's casters, they should have either made additional PfX resonances, or set that one to be a list:
Roll 1d4, and it has the resonance as follows:
Pf:
1) E
2) G
3) L
4) C

Besides, since PFS is humanocentric, especially at lower levels, does that mean the Ranger Favored Enemy: Humanoids (Humans) is overpowered?

[Mattastrophic]

Just to let you guys know...

4,000GP is actually the correct price for a continuously-functioning magic item which mimics a first-level spell of duration minutes per level:

1st-level spell x caster level 1 x 2,000GP x 2 for a min/lvl spell = 4,000GP.

However, by the rules, this item should be slotted. If we count the "Wayfinder Slot" as a magic item slot, the item is correctly-priced, though.

That being said, continuously-functioning items which mimic short-duration spells are asking for trouble. Like with the bracers of falcon's aim. Those would actually be correctly-priced if their caster level was 1 instead of 3, by the way.

In short, it's a systemic issue. The item is arguably properly-priced, depending on whether the "Wayfinder Slot" is a legitimate slot. In fact, it's actually possible to say that the item is overpriced, because it doesn't grant the full effect of the spell it mimics. It's missing the +2 deflection bonus to AC and to saves. Assuming you forget about the stone's ability when not in a Wayfinder. What did it do when out of a Wayfinder again? I forgot.

-Matt

[kinevon]

Mattastrophic wrote:

Just to let you guys know...

4,000GP is actually the correct price for a continuously-functioning magic item which mimics a first-level spell of duration minutes per level:

1st-level spell x caster level 1 x 2,000GP x 2 for a min/lvl spell = 4,000GP.

However, by the rules, this item should be slotted. If we count the "Wayfinder Slot" as a magic item slot, the item is correctly-priced, though.

That being said, continuously-functioning items which mimic short-duration spells are asking for trouble. Like with the bracers of falcon's aim. Those would actually be correctly-priced if their caster level was 1 instead of 3, by the way.

In short, it's a systemic issue. The item is arguably properly-priced, depending on whether the "Wayfinder Slot" is a legitimate slot. In fact, it's actually possible to say that the item is overpriced, because it doesn't grant the full effect of the spell it mimics. It's missing the +2 deflection bonus to AC and to saves. Assuming you forget about the stone's ability when not in a Wayfinder. What did it do when out of a Wayfinder again? I forgot.

-Matt

It provides a similar effect to a Ring of Sustenance, only not quite as good as the 2,200 gp Ring.

[Severed Ronin]

Here's my quick input (close-minded or not):

Start making them all have the book. Don't have the book? Too bad. No resonance for you. It's what I do and how we're supposed to operate anyways.

[godsDMit]

For the arguements saying that the mind controlling type spells dont come up that much...I dont know what campaign you are playing, but it seems like at least 80% of caster baddies in this camapgin have those kinds of spells. At least as far as I have noticed. Not that they always use them, but they have them.

Robert Beasley wrote:

Here's my quick input (close-minded or not):

Start making them all have the book. Don't have the book? Too bad. No resonance for you. It's what I do and how we're supposed to operate anyways.

This has been my take away from this as well. As far as I know, Seeker of Secrets is the only book with the resonant powers listed, so you cant use it if you dont have it. And its out of print.

[Cire]

You can still get it in PDF form. Printed pages of a personalized PDF are legal for use if memory serves me.

[godsDMit]

Cire wrote:

You can still get it in PDF form. Printed pages of a personalized PDF are legal for use if memory serves me.

Very true, but you still have to have it. ;)

[Jiggy]

Seth Gipson wrote:

For the arguements saying that the mind controlling type spells dont come up that much...I dont know what campaign you are playing, but it seems like at least 80% of caster baddies in this camapgin have those kinds of spells. At least as far as I have noticed. Not that they always use them, but they have them.

Really? I know as GM I've thrown some confusion around, but that's not stopped by PfE/spindle. A certain Free RPG Day module with some mental-influence spells comes to mind, and I recall about two scenarios with a suggestion spell...

But most of the caster baddies I've seen/run have been blasters and battlefield control folks who don't have/use the kinds of spells PfE protects against.

I'm rather curious. Could you jog my memory? (In a spoiler tag or PM, of course.)

[godsDMit]

Not necessarily those ones specifically, but Charm Person seems to come up on pretty much every caster I've seen. Maybe I'm imaginging it, though.

[Jiggy]

Seth Gipson wrote:

Not necessarily those ones specifically, but Charm Person seems to come up on pretty much every caster I've seen. Maybe I'm imaginging it, though.

Really? I don't think I've ever noticed it on a villain's spell list, or had it cast against my party.

[nosig]

Harpies anyone?

[Jiggy]

nosig wrote:

Harpies anyone?

I've only encountered them once. How often have you encountered/run them?

[Artanthos]

Jiggy wrote:

Seth Gipson wrote:

Not necessarily those ones specifically, but Charm Person seems to come up on pretty much every caster I've seen. Maybe I'm imaginging it, though.

Really? I don't think I've ever noticed it on a villain's spell list, or had it cast against my party.

I've encountered it once, in a low level scenario. The caster was chaotic neutral.

Spoiler:

Black Waters

[godsDMit]

I can think of three scenarios off the top of my head with them in it, and I think Im missing one or two.

They, like Black Tentacles, Chases, and Haunts went from hardly ever used to way over used within the past two seasons. :P

[Artanthos]

Seth Gipson wrote:

This has been my take away from this as well. As far as I know, Seeker of Secrets is the only book with the resonant powers listed, so you cant use it if you dont have it. And its out of print.

PDF

I keep a print out of the relevant pages and a complete copy on my tablet.

[Lab_Rat]

I honestly don't think the item is overpriced.

1st level spell x Caster level 1 x 2000gp x 2 = 4000gp
-and-
You must have a wayfinder and use your one wayfinder slot for it
-and-
It requires an additional book: Seekers of Secrets

Instead of banning this item...why don't we just enforce the additional resources rules. You need Seekers of Secrets to use them in this way. How many people actually have this book where you game?

[godsDMit]

Lab_Rat wrote:

I honestly don't think the item is overpriced.

1st level spell x Caster level 1 x 2000gp x 2 = 4000gp
-and-
You must have a wayfinder and use your one wayfinder slot for it
-and-
It requires an additional book: Seekers of Secrets

Instead of banning this item...why don't we just enforce the additional resources rules. You need Seekers of Secrets to use them in this way. How many people actually have this book where you game?

3? Out of 35ish? :P

[LazarX]

Cire wrote:

You are hilarious nosig. You forget that the will save from a level 1 wand is pretty low though. To build upon that, you can buy those wands with prestige and never have to spend a single copper piece. Plus you can get them at level 1.

I think the always on aspect is actually not all its cracked up to be.

"Protection from evil or a similar spell can prevent you from exercising control or using the telepathic link while the subject is so warded, but such an effect does not automatically dispel it."

As been recently clarified, Protection from Evil offers no defense when these effects are being used by non-evil creatures.

[Yiroep]

Jiggy wrote:

nosig wrote:

Harpies anyone?

I've only encountered them once. How often have you encountered/run them?

I've encountered them 3 times, and apparently (based on that spoiler up there) there is at least 1 more I haven't played that has them.

[Lab_Rat]

Seth Gipson wrote:

Lab_Rat wrote:

I honestly don't think the item is overpriced.

1st level spell x Caster level 1 x 2000gp x 2 = 4000gp
-and-
You must have a wayfinder and use your one wayfinder slot for it
-and-
It requires an additional book: Seekers of Secrets

Instead of banning this item...why don't we just enforce the additional resources rules. You need Seekers of Secrets to use them in this way. How many people actually have this book where you game?

3? Out of 35ish? :P

That's my point. I see a lot of players using stuff that they don't have the additional resources for. d20pfsrd makes it real easy. I just recently saw someone give their Animal companion the menace command....no Animal archive in sight. I make it a habit of owning every source I use (I just bought Adventurers armory so I could use spring loaded wrist sheaths, an item I see players use all the time without the source).

[nosig]

Jiggy wrote:

nosig wrote:

Harpies anyone?

I've only encountered them once. How often have you encountered/run them?

Jiggy:

More than "a few". (I think) but I've played almost everything. ;)

Several of characters have Potions of Deafness now...

[nosig]

Seth Gipson wrote:

I can think of three scenarios off the top of my head with them in it, and I think Im missing one or two.

They, like Black Tentacles, Chases, and Haunts went from hardly ever used to way over used within the past two seasons. :P

Only TPK I've seen in a season 0 was from them.

[Rogue Eidolon]

I've seen quite a lot of suggestion and dominate type spells. Here's a list of just the ones that have such effects that I remember as having them because I either used them on PCs or had them used on me, without cracking open the scenarios. There will be more:

If I Told You Which Ones I'm Spoiling, It's Already a Spoiler:

*Murder on the Silken Caravan
*Black Waters
*Perils of the Pirate Pact
*Our Lady of Silver
*Encounter at the Drowning Stones (near-TPKed with them, in fact)
*No Plunder, No Pay
*Hall of Drunken Heroes
*Fortune's Blight
*City of Strangers 1
*Infernal Vault
*Jester's Fraud
*Rebel's Ransom
*Shadows Fall on Absalom
*Sarkorian Prophecy
*Heresy of Man 3
*Murder on the Throaty Mermaid
*Forbidden Furance of Forgotten Koor (played it and don't own it, but enemy didn't get a turn but had used such magic on an NPC, so was at least capable)
*Shadow's Last Stand 2
*Frostfur Captives
*Song of the Sea Witch
*Among the Gods
*Red Harvest
*Rats of Round Mountain 2
*Goblinblood Dead
*Golden Serpent
*Storming the Diamond Gate
*Portal of the Sacred Rune
*First Steps 1
*In Wrath's Shadow
*The Golemworks Incident
*King of the Storval Stairs
*Sanos Abduction
*Cultist's Kiss (and how!)
*Feast of Sigils
*Refuge of Time

Surely there are more that I missed.

[Rogue Eidolon]

So it looks like I found 35 out of the 118 scenarios on my spreadsheet (goes up to My Enemy's Enemy), some of which I've never played and might have them, and some of which might have had such an effect but I forgot. Correcting for the 21 I never played or GMed, that leaves 35 out of 97, or roughly 1/3, not counting any I missed.

[Jiggy]

@Rogue Eidolon:
Wow. Apparently it's just been chance; that list was chock full of stuff I've neither played nor run (some of them I've never even heard of).

[Rogue Eidolon]

Jiggy wrote:

@Rogue Eidolon:

Wow. Apparently it's just been chance; that list was chock full of stuff I've neither played nor run (some of them I've never even heard of).

No worries. Having either played or run 97 different scenarios (including no Season 0s that were retired, even though I played a few games in 3.5 during Season 0), eventually I've seen almost all of them that are still available.

Anyway, I personally think the spindle resonance is a pretty bad idea for the game. It perhaps works in a home game if you use a mix of Option 1 and Option 2 because every spindle you buy has only a 75% chance of having a resonance and then some of those resonances will mess up the ioun stone or wayfinder (so merchants won't let you "try before you buy") but in PFS with the 100% chance for the Method 1 resonance, it's overly much in my opinion (as is the whole blanket auto-immunity from Prot Evil to begin with, but that's another story).

The way I like to think of it is--when Sorshen has to worry about whether the PCs put up a first level spell (or are using a 4000 gp item) becausse it prevents her from controlling them, something is wrong (though I suppose Sorshen probably has a mythic ability to ignore such immunities).

It's definitely on my list of least-favored things, but with wyroot banned now, I'm already happy enough that I don't feel a need to exhort for this one too strongly.

[Lormyr]

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

@Rogue Eidolon:

Wow. Apparently it's just been chance; that list was chock full of stuff I've neither played nor run (some of them I've never even heard of).

No worries. Having either played or run 97 different scenarios (including no Season 0s that were retired, even though I played a few games in 3.5 during Season 0), eventually I've seen almost all of them that are still available.

Anyway, I personally think the spindle resonance is a pretty bad idea for the game. It perhaps works in a home game if you use a mix of Option 1 and Option 2 because every spindle you buy has only a 75% chance of having a resonance and then some of those resonances will mess up the ioun stone or wayfinder (so merchants won't let you "try before you buy") but in PFS with the 100% chance for the Method 1 resonance, it's overly much in my opinion (as is the whole blanket auto-immunity from Prot Evil to begin with, but that's another story).

The way I like to think of it is--when Sorshen has to worry about whether the PCs put up a first level spell (or are using a 4000 gp item) becausse it prevents her from controlling them, something is wrong (though I suppose Sorshen probably has a mythic ability to ignore such immunities).

It's definitely on my list of least-favored things, but with wyroot banned now, I'm already happy enough that I don't feel a need to exhort for this one too strongly.

As usual, I agree with you. My personal stance is a simple one: their is enough immunity to mind-affecting in this game that we really don't need to expand upon the list.

[godsDMit]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Seth Gipson wrote:

Lab_Rat wrote:

I honestly don't think the item is overpriced.

1st level spell x Caster level 1 x 2000gp x 2 = 4000gp
-and-
You must have a wayfinder and use your one wayfinder slot for it
-and-
It requires an additional book: Seekers of Secrets

Instead of banning this item...why don't we just enforce the additional resources rules. You need Seekers of Secrets to use them in this way. How many people actually have this book where you game?

3? Out of 35ish? :P

That's my point. I see a lot of players using stuff that they don't have the additional resources for. d20pfsrd makes it real easy. I just recently saw someone give their Animal companion the menace command....no Animal archive in sight. I make it a habit of owning every source I use (I just bought Adventurers armory so I could use spring loaded wrist sheaths, an item I see players use all the time without the source).

And thats why I agreed with Robert up thread when he said exactly what you are saying.

Also, your formula doesnt take into account the normal ability it grants to not need to eat or drink, which itself is another 4000. So the item price probably should be higher, for PFS anyway, considering the 100% resonance chance in the campaign.

[Cire]

Jiggy wrote:

Seth Gipson wrote:

A certain Free RPG Day module with some mental-influence spells comes to mind, and I recall about two scenarios with a suggestion spell...

In fact, that free rpg day scenario is the reason I got that ioun stone on the one character I do have it on.

[GreySector]

Seth Gipson wrote:

Also, your formula doesnt take into account the normal ability it grants to not need to eat or drink, which itself is another 4000. So the item price probably should be higher, for PFS anyway, considering the 100% resonance chance in the campaign.

If you are going to adjust price for PFS specific circumstances, then the price of the base stone should be reduced. I can think of exactly zero times when my characters couldn't forage for their food and drink, or it simply wasn't an issue because they were surrounded by civilization.

Its all beside the point, since item prices will never be adjusted for PFS.

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

Robert Beasley wrote:

Here's my quick input (close-minded or not):

Start making them all have the book. Don't have the book? Too bad. No resonance for you. It's what I do and how we're supposed to operate anyways.

GMs should be doing this anyway, not just for items we don't like.

[Thod]

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:

Robert Beasley wrote:

Here's my quick input (close-minded or not):

Start making them all have the book. Don't have the book? Too bad. No resonance for you. It's what I do and how we're supposed to operate anyways.

GMs should be doing this anyway, not just for items we don't like.

Agreed - this needs to be done more.

Anyone know where the Infernal Healing spell is from.

Hint - I have never seen the book at any table I GMed - but the spell is ubiquitous. I'm not saying nobody owns the book at home / as pdf - but I doubt as many players as there are using wands of Infernal Healing actually own it.

I promised myself to start checking from now on for that spell.

I think only if people are reminded of something so widespread and are occasionally reminded - btw. you aren't allowed to use your wand - they will be more careful what is / isn't allowed.

It can always be exchanged for a wand of CLW which everyone can buy / use.

[Matthew Morris]

I had one case where the player didn't know where the spell came from (got the spell at a con, in a wizard-wizard exchange). I reminded her and said I'd let it slide this time, (since I had the book) but next time have a copy or no go.

But I'm a softie.

[Lab_Rat]

I think it's less about enforcing the items we don't like and more about enforcing the most common items/options used by players without the source. It's just a good place to start.

Edit - Thod: Inner Sea World Guide?

[nosig]

Thod wrote:

Patrick Harris @ SD wrote:

Robert Beasley wrote:

Here's my quick input (close-minded or not):

Start making them all have the book. Don't have the book? Too bad. No resonance for you. It's what I do and how we're supposed to operate anyways.

GMs should be doing this anyway, not just for items we don't like.

Agreed - this needs to be done more.

Anyone know where the Infernal Healing spell is from.

Hint - I have never seen the book at any table I GMed - but the spell is ubiquitous. I'm not saying nobody owns the book at home / as pdf - but I doubt as many players as there are using wands of Infernal Healing actually own it.

I promised myself to start checking from now on for that spell.

I think only if people are reminded of something so widespread and are occasionally reminded - btw. you aren't allowed to use your wand - they will be more careful what is / isn't allowed.

It can always be exchanged for a wand of CLW which everyone can buy / use.

the Infernal Healing spell? it's actually in two sources, and that's one of the few books I bring in hardback to every game (I like the pictures). The other source I only have in PDF - but it is one PDF that I printed all of and carry that in hardcopy too. So... I guess I have both sources in hardcopy with me.

But come to think of it, only 2 of my 10 PCs have that wand....

edit: Ninja'd by a Rat! yeah, that's the hard back I like! So I can pull the map of the country we visit for each scenario (after we roll Kn: Local!)

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

Thod wrote:

Anyone know where the Infernal Healing spell is from.

Hmm, that's a good point. I imagine many people own the ISWG ... but I don't see it at the table very often.

[nosig]

So, anyone know the OTHER source for the Infernal Healing spell? (for an Internet Cookie!)