Player Motivations and DM Tiredness


Carrion Crown

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm currently running Carrion Crown as a DM, and I've been getting a bit worn out with a few things and want to see if they can be addressed.

One thing that has been coming up is the player's motivation - past wanting to "avenge the professor", why else would they persue the WW (besides just being "good" characters)? The Palatine Eye sounds like it's there to bring them more into what's going on, but it kind of feels too vague(I've been trying to insert more motivations from their character's background in order, but ever since working overnights, this has been difficult).

I guess that is one of the problems I am runnning into with my group - I tried to put out the Order with Judge Daramid from TotB, but it feels like I have to rush things out, and it seems like they don't pay a lot of attention/write things down, as I have to summerize (constantly) what's going on all the time. While they say they enjoy the game, it looks like they're not totally engrossed in what's going on (a few players constantly look at Reddit/play online games while I'm Dming, hence I repeat things a lot).

I'd like to talk to my player's about this, but aside from not really getting a response, I don't want to seem to be too defensive about it (or have them get too defensive, also).

Any advice? ;^.^


I get bored occasionally during sessions, but pulling out a game or surfing the web becomes a distraction that feeds itself. You aren't completely involved with the game, so you're not having the most fun. Because you're not having as much as you could be, you have more incentive to not be completely involved with the game.

Short answer: It might be a good time to have a "no games or other distractions" houserule. I've played in groups that had it, and that rule isn't unusual according to the 'social contract' thread in the Gamer Talk forum.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

After 'Trial of the Beast', I flat out asked each player to tell me the following about their character:
-What part of Ustalav are they from (if from there)?
-What do they hope to accomplish in their career (fame, fortune, a farm, lost love, etc.)
-Do they have any surviving relatives and what are their relationships with them?

I foresaw the slight problem of PC motivation in the third module, similar to the feeling you experienced: "Are we just chasing these guys because they're 'bad'? What motivation do we have for this?" I did the following to offset this:
-Involve the Esoteric Order of the Palantine Eye. One of the PCs is a member and is using that as an impetus to seek knowledge and to thwart the WW.
-Involve PC family members, friends, or relatives in the plot.

Broken Moon spoiler:
In my game, one of the PCs is has tracked her two sisters to the Shudderwood. They came to that place seeking to bring their father back to life via a druidic ritual (in my campaign, Cybrisa of the Broken Ones is a 9th level druid, and casting Reincarnate at The Stairs of the Moon during a new moon can bring somebody back without the percentage check. Anyways, the ritual doesn't happen, one of the sisters blames the packlord for this, and eventually joins forces with Auren Vrood. She helps murder the packlord, then in turn is betrayed by Vrood and turned into an undead creature,Acretia, with a different name. The player now has lots of personal stake to figure out what happened at Ascanor.

-Finally, I'd step up assassination attempts by the WW to get the player's attention. I had Lucimar from book 6 make an early appearance and tell them that because of what the PCs knew and what they had done, they had two choices: death or joining the Whispering Way. While he himself didn't fight them (rather, simply studying their fight and occasionally mocking them before disappearing), he and the forthcoming WW enemies I sent after them let them know that they couldn't just 'walk away' from the events around them. So far, I've thrown a Dullahan and a group of WW cultist assassins after my group, and its definitely let the players know that they mean business.


I would be annoyed if one of my players started surfing or playing another game while I was DMing.

I would just stop and wait for them. Make a point of looking at the offending person so every one knows who is responsible for holding the game up. Ask them 'Are you ready, yet?' and wait for them.

Mention that they probably want to pay attention for this bit and bury a key piece of information. If they remember it later it saves them from the extra 6d10 damage from that trap you just added to the adventure.

Players do not disrespect the GM if they want their characters to survive.


If they must surf, have them help the mood by sending them looking for images of Eastern European mountains, forests, castles. They get to do their fidgeting while engaging them in the atmospherics.


DeciusNero wrote:

I'm currently running Carrion Crown as a DM, and I've been getting a bit worn out with a few things and want to see if they can be addressed.

One thing that has been coming up is the player's motivation - past wanting to "avenge the professor", why else would they persue the WW (besides just being "good" characters)? The Palatine Eye sounds like it's there to bring them more into what's going on, but it kind of feels too vague(I've been trying to insert more motivations from their character's background in order, but ever since working overnights, this has been difficult).

I guess that is one of the problems I am runnning into with my group - I tried to put out the Order with Judge Daramid from TotB, but it feels like I have to rush things out, and it seems like they don't pay a lot of attention/write things down, as I have to summerize (constantly) what's going on all the time. While they say they enjoy the game, it looks like they're not totally engrossed in what's going on (a few players constantly look at Reddit/play online games while I'm Dming, hence I repeat things a lot).

I'd like to talk to my player's about this, but aside from not really getting a response, I don't want to seem to be too defensive about it (or have them get too defensive, also).

Any advice? ;^.^

Not to sound accusatory, but could your gm'ing be responsible? I mean, have you stepped back and looked at yourself? There may be something to your storytelling that's boring them that you haven't noticed.

Don't get me wrong, its absolutely rude to sit and play games on their phone while you're running a game, but maybe they're just bored. You need to talk to them and see why they're bored. It seems like they're trying to be nice and tell you that they're having fun when they aren't, but they're ironically being WAY more rude playing online and not listening to you.

I highly recommend you set aside a few minutes before the next session and have it out with them - you don't have to be mean to them, but you need to be direct. Just ask them what's going on, and tell them how incredibly inconsiderate they're being, and ask them why they're bored.

Let us know how it goes :)


I found that in my games, I'd offer the players too much freedom without enough structure. This lead to most of them not knowing what to do or not feeling like there was anything more they could do.

I fixed this by providing a list of activities they could do in 8 hour increments and having each pick what they'd do each day. They could go around town looking for leads, they could investigate leads found, they could study in the library, they could enchant items, they could go shopping to buy and sell gear, they could sleep and study spells, etc etc.

This way they knew what they could do and knew got feedback pretty directly as to the usefulness of the option. Time of day is also useful; gathering information in the morning is different from the evening, one is talking with merchants and market folk and the other is carousing in the bars.

Outings either had a certainty of success (buying/selling, sleeping) or required a single skill check (info gathering, studying). Alternatively they could actually do adventury things like infiltrating V&G's chymic works.

A player could always team up with another and use aid another to assist in the check. It didn't have to be the same skill though; I'd allow the monk to use perception to help the wizard's Knowledge check at the library because he's helping find the books and scrolls. Bluff or Diplomacy are another good catch-all to improve almost any situation.

I would also make it pretty clear when they have 'mined out' a particular path, such as rumor gathering, by saying something like "after another night of drinking and bribing, you fail to learn anything you haven't already heard". They realized that was the end of that path and wouldn't do much else there.

In Book 2 this was useful as the game is very time bound. The players knew what their deadline was and they used this structure to divide the days with actions worth their time. Obviously once it was time to go to Caromarc (which is to say, the Dungeon Crawl section), this system was stopped.

In Book 3, this only really works in the first part at the lodge. The nice thing here is that the players don't know what their time line is, so you can screw with them pretty easily. The action set is still pretty obvious, though you may want to break it into 4 hour sections. Some sections were off limits based on the time as well.

Make sure your players know that they can do more than is on the list; this will provide an avenue for your more creative and engaged players to act while the less inventive can still provide useful interaction.

As for motivation for the characters, well, mine are part of a mercenary party so I just hire them for contracts to go from place to place. It works well enough for my party and gets around things like "What do I care about this Caromarc guy". You care because you were offered 5000 gold to go do it. Geeze.

Grand Lodge

Our games devolved into that. Several players were always late, playing games on their smart phones because they got bored in between their actions. Doesn't help that there are 10 people total (includes the DM). A few of us just snapped and told them to stop bringing the distractions.

As a GM (currently doing a 8/9 player Rise of the Runelords game) the chatter from the players as they talked among themselves would eventually escalate because of several conversations. When that would happen I would snap and yell at them to shut the eff (insert expletive here) up! The players that are trying to pay attention would start shushing them as well.

I plan on running this campaign 1 week a month (actually twice a month now but with two groups) and I am limiting it to only 4 players and am using the Mythic playtest rules. The motivation will be that each of them were marked by Pharasma with a birthmark that resembles her swirl (hence the mythic rules). The characters know they are special in some way but not why, so the campaign will be their catalyst and motivation.

As for motivation for the players? I would seriously ask them if they are enjoying the game because their inattention to your work says they are not. If that doesn't wake them up maybe a different game, AP, or break is in order.


ADHD is not limited to your group, or the younger generation for that matter. I guess 20 years ago doodling on your character sheet was the diversion of choice.
I have banned all electronic devices. My group gets together once a week for about 2.5 hours of playing time. If they can turn off their device for a movie, then they sure as heck can shut it down during the game. (And if they can't, they don't need to play). With the exception of my 17 year old son, who has been playing for about 7 years, the rest of the group has been playing together for 3 decades. So they understand my rules and in some ways are grateful for them. (“Really honey, I have to turn off my phone.”)
Because we do not have a lot of time I also request that they know what their action will be when it is their turn and I call on them.
Paying attention is just common courtesy to the game master and the other players.
My group is in Book 6. The only original member to make it this far has been the Paladin, who swore an oath against undead early in Book 1. I am lucky in that respect as his pursuit of the Whispering Way was originally motivated by the Professor's murder, but then by the desire the halt the plans of the mastermind....
Other players: the 2 role-players in my group crafted various motivations depending on the situations they have been in or the NPC's they have interacted with. (example: The bard is a Sleepless Agent they picked up in Book 4 who is under contract to report on the party's activities).
The 2 non role-players are along for the ride. One is a monk who simply likes fighting, and the other is a sniper rogue with no real background. He simply enjoys the game for the game’s sake and understands what is needed to move the plot along.
Have you spoken directly to your players about your concerns? As a cooperative game, everyone should be on the same page.
Is it possible that the style of game your players want to actually play is something with a little less investigation/role play and more action?
How large is your group? How old are they? How long have they been playing? Is it always the same person/people?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wow, thanks for the answers!

@Mystically inclined: I am somewhat guilty of this, but since we all use laptops for character sheets and using prd from time-to-time, its hard to avoid.

@Rakshasha: I've been trying to hint at them that I'd like to involve their characters via their backstory, but I guess I need to be a bit stronger than "hinting".

Also, I like the idea of inserting a later baddie to "mock them"; all the more sweeter when they encounter him proper and lay the smack down on him/her, rather then saying "well, we defeated this random enemy."

@Tirisfal: it very well may be my DMing-style, but if they keep telling me that they like the game and have no criticism to offer, I can't tell for sure. I'll bring it up that I'd like some criticism.

Also, they do this during another DM's sessions (online stuff) as well.


Gm- "what's your course of action "
:quickly pull out your phone, pick a loud annoying app game like agnry birds:
Player 1- " i swing my sword at-"
gm-" hol-hold on a sec... there!: celebrate a win on your app game for 10 seconds:
" i'm sorry what did you say?"
Player 1- " i swung my sword at the ghoul"
Gm- :silence:
Player 1- ...
Gm- :silence:
Player 1- ... uh.
Player 2- "so what happens?"
Gm- "what happens with what?"
Player 2- "did he hit the ghoul?"
Gm- "oh yeah, the ghoul. so what did you do to the ghoul?"
Player 1- "i swung my sword at the ghoul!"
Gm- "oh, ok." :turn to player 2: "what's your course of action?"

... thats when you can break out the house rule of no electronic devices at the gaming table. =)


I've a small suggestion. Take a break from GMing. Tell the gang that you need a break and go for a month or two (or more) not running games. It may be you're starting to suffer GM burnout. I went through that... continued running games, and ended up suffering massive migraines whenever I even thought about running a game for several years afterward. So taking a break could be a good thing... and help you recharge your GMing energies.


DeciusNero wrote:

Wow, thanks for the answers!

@Mystically inclined: I am somewhat guilty of this, but since we all use laptops for character sheets and using prd from time-to-time, its hard to avoid.

@Rakshasha: I've been trying to hint at them that I'd like to involve their characters via their backstory, but I guess I need to be a bit stronger than "hinting".

Also, I like the idea of inserting a later baddie to "mock them"; all the more sweeter when they encounter him proper and lay the smack down on him/her, rather then saying "well, we defeated this random enemy."

@Tirisfal: it very well may be my DMing-style, but if they keep telling me that they like the game and have no criticism to offer, I can't tell for sure. I'll bring it up that I'd like some criticism.

Also, they do this during another DM's sessions (online stuff) as well.

Oh no, dude/dudette, I'm with you; I think they're just being rude as all get out - I just always feel the need to point out other sides of situations lest they aren't put under the same amount of scrutiny; its a question that bears asking when you talk to the group.

Shadow Lodge

During an old campaign, I certainly had to establish a 'No Electronics' policy-- no one would pay attention, then during their turn, they would require me to repeat what happened in the previous round before they would do anything. Which would then make everyone else bored. So they'd pull out their electronics. And repeat the cycle.

I made it clear about half way through the game that if you were there to game, you were there to play my game. Anything else, and we did not need you there. Mind you, I also asked them about their characters to try to best keep them interested, but only one person actually ever gave me anything.

If you're particularly close with your buddies, and they won't be extremely offended, you can try bringing an airsoft gun to your meets. I had a buddy who would shoot his players if they got out of hand. Only had to do it for a few meets before people caught on. ;)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Tangent101 wrote:
I've a small suggestion. Take a break from GMing. Tell the gang that you need a break and go for a month or two (or more) not running games. It may be you're starting to suffer GM burnout. I went through that... continued running games, and ended up suffering massive migraines whenever I even thought about running a game for several years afterward. So taking a break could be a good thing... and help you recharge your GMing energies.

^ This is most likely where I'm headed; a few of the others want to run Skull/Shackles or Kingmaker (Me and another player swap DM spots every other week, and we didn't want 4 different games going on at once).

So I'll let them take my spot, while I try to fix some problems.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

@ Brodymeister Meisterbrody - I am guilty of ADD myself, but some of the other players that don't use distractions seem to have trouble remebering (writing) down important plot points.
Also, when a recap is asked (as I alternate weeks with another DM, who plays), after I start off, I begin to get interrupted and they start to fill in gaps (which are sometimes off); which begs to why they ask for recaps?

From what I gathered, it seems like they enjoy it well enough (and have acknowledge that, as an AP, is likely to be railroady, so they expect that).

The group is soon to be six players; all but two have played for a few years before I joined their Savage Tide game (which lasted around 4 years). The other two; one is new to 3.5/Pathfinder, but has played 2e. The last person is new to DnD altogether, but not roleplaying (been playing for 2 years). Everyone is roughly 20-30's.

@Trisfal - no, it's good :3 I'll bring it up when I mention going on hiatus

@Zarsuakar, I kinda feel a bit off telling someone who lives there to not use thier laptops, as they also use them for character sheets and whatnot.

Silver Crusade

DeciusNero wrote:


@Zarsuakar, I kinda feel a bit off telling someone who lives there to not use thier laptops, as they also use them for character sheets and whatnot.

I can see why this is a problem. Have you considered asking them to print out their characters or write everything down?

You could also ask them to disable WiFi on their Laptops or even shut off the WiFi on their router for the time of the meeting. If they absolutely NEED their laptops for gaming, fine - I also tend to grab my Laptop from time to time if I need some rule from the Advanced Player's Guide. But I know myself well enough that I don't trust myself when internet is enabled, since I automatically open up my favorite websites even when I KNOW internet is off...I don't want to imagine what would happen if I played with the WiFi on...;)


Bump, because I'm wondering how this all turned out.


We generally don't have the problem of players playing games on their ipad or whatever...actually, we have 2 guys using laptops and they almost always sit opposite of me, so maybe they are, but they don't seem to be the problem. And in my other game we did sometimes play a few rounds of Carcasonne when the DM went to the bathroom.

The usual suspect is our wizard who constantly needs the updated story. The DM is usually genial enough to fill in the blanks. The guys memory is horrible.

Most of the time, I act as the institutional memory and tell my version of the story. I say my version because sometimes I forget some details and more recently since I've been sublimating my desires, I'm considering canting things in a way that might help me get to do what I want to do - we play a sandbox campaign so we frequently have more than one adventure hook dangling in front of us.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Sorry, didn't post an update u.u

I kinda chickened out, and just said I was tired from my work schedule and other things. I allowed another to DM RotRL in my place.

I asked for feedback, but there was little other than "we'll miss your game."

Thanks, all, for the suggestions.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Carrion Crown / Player Motivations and DM Tiredness All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Carrion Crown