Advice on how to proceed with my Magus?


Advice


Hi!

So I just started a new PF game, and I am having some problems planning out my character. I usually like to plan ahead, so if there are certain feats or multi classing I intend to go into, I can properly role play my character towards those things.

So far, I am a level 1 Kitsune Bladebound Magus. My first feat is Weapon Finesse, and my traits are Rich Parents and Magical Knack (Magus). I chose Magical Knack with the intention of eventually taking Rogue levels and effectively being the Rogueish character for our group. My plan, also, was to get Whip Proficiency at 3rd level, and be a Disarming character (you know, Spell Combat + 15ft Disarm + Mage Hand away their weapon shenanigans).

The feat, traits, and intention to use a whip and disarm things is remaining, regardless. However, it turns out we have a committed Rogue type character in the party as well. I fully intend to be a thief by "profession" and be a charming (read: Diplomacy/Bluff) scoundrel, but otherwise, cannot decide what to do. I have so many ideas, but I am hesitant to stick to any one of them. Maybe someone here would have some insight that could help me decide?

My thoughts so far are:
- Still taking Rogue levels to get some Sneak Attack dice since I'm not focusing on Shocking Grasp for damage.
- Focus on Shocking Grasp or other spells for damage without the minmax efficiency of the Magical Lineage trait, making use of Magical Knack to sneak some Sorceror levels in.
- Take a couple Fighter levels for the extra feats and BAB.
- I am absolutely not interested in Dervish Dance or really anything without reach. The whip must stay!

One feat I would really like to find room for is the Kitsune feat Realistic Likeness. I feel like that could be extremely useful, as our campaign will be centered(ish) on Riddleport.

Anyway, I appreciate any insight or advice I can get, and thanks for your time!


Sounds like you've got a plan; also look into one of the Magus arcana that gives you full BAB for a single maneuver (IE, trip!)

Note that you can have your Black Blade be a whip (one handed slashing weapon)


Random thoughts.

If you really must have some sneak attack there is archetypes for classes other then rogue that grant it. Like for bard and alchemist. Unless there is a rogue talent you would really like they are a better option.

If you go with fighter lvls the most valuable thing that could come out of it is weapon training so you can use gloves of dueling. Problem is that takes 5 fighter lvls and that is tough to choke down on a caster class. That aside you sould look at fighter archetypes. Lore warden would get you extra skill points, Combat Expertise and +2 CMB/CMD. It is a very profitable 3 lvl dip.

Or weapon master that gets weapon training at lvl 3 giving you use of said gloves of dueling. Also pretty good for a 3 lvl dip.

Also as a random side not even though it seems strange you can two hand a whip. So at any time you can't get spell combat in you can two hand for added damage.


Non 18-20 weapons usually are bad for Magi, though if you want to be "roguey" and use a whip, go Kensai 20/20.

You look like a rogue and use a whip.


Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Non 18-20 weapons usually are bad for Magi, though if you want to be "roguey" and use a whip, go Kensai 20/20.

You look like a rogue and use a whip.

They might be "bad" for damage but there is far more to the game then damage.

A whip is a powerful tool when using true strike + trip/disarm and a magus can do it in the same round with spellcombat.

There are other ways to play a magus then single target nova damage.


Intimidate + enforcer - 3 thug levels -> true strike + trip + intimidate

Target is tripped, if you make the intimidate check he's shakend, perhaps frightend and if you could sneak sickend...

That could be fun i think...


While the idea sounds fun as hell I do not think it works. Enforcer triggers of nonlethal damage. A trip does not do damage.

So one would need greater trip or a second attack to make it work. Since you will be taking 3 lvls of rogue your BaB is set back even more. Its an interesting idea but it would take way to long to get off the ground IMO.


The trip does not do damage but Frostbite is a spell of yours that does nonlethal. Just channel that through the whip.


Hmmm interesting. Would take 2 rounds to lead up to if you wanted to use it and true strike. But if you get your trip CMB high enough to not need it then it has promise. Still it suffers from the same thing all these enforce builds do. That is things immune to nonlethal.

Still a good suggestion. Now I want to build it... that would be the 100th or so build I am waiting to get the chance to play heh.


I'd dip fighter, one of those archtypes mentioned. Your BAB will be pretty low otherwise and even though something like thug or even more vivisectionist would be pretty cool, I think those levels of fighter will give you more when it comes to using a whip. You need a couple of feats to really make the whip worth. If you really want to go that trip/disarm route (that I think isnt that effective as other classes can do it better while still doing a lot of damage) you could get quick dirty trick and focus on that as its a really strong maneuver that also works on all those immune to trip or disarm.

But while playable I do not think such a build is really viable. One successfull maneuver per round is just not that much contribution - there are so much better ways to pull maneuvers off.

Enforcer only works with melee weapons. And without true strike you will have a hard time pulling trips off.


Magus (spiredefender / bladebound), you get proficiency with the whip + dodge and combat expertise as bonus feats, the whip qualifies for a bonded weapon per the bladebound archetype (though I would not) and the feats are a welcome addition to fulfill prerequisites. If you desire you can even take the spellblade archetype too.

You can add rogue(kitsune trickster) levels, for a nice added skill bonus for skills you want, though you lose trap finding this might not be a bad thing with another rogue in the party. (up to 3 levels ?)

I'd stick with magus for the rest of the levels not to lose too much on spellcasting, but Arcane Trickster is a viable PrC for the character.

A ranger level can be added to gain access to the Eldritch Knight PrC, I'd suggest the (trapper) archetype if you want to add trap finding to your list of skills. You can combine this with the (guide) archetype to get some sure use out of your favored enemy ability, though I'd consider to take the (warden) archetype to gain favored terrain (urban) at 1st level for some more skill bonuses in cities and the like.

Barbarian (urban barbarian), is a surprisingly good fit too and still has a decent amount of skill points.

Fighter (lorewarden) if you are only using light armor for a few extra skill points, or standard fighter if you want to use medium armor.


How is arcane trickster viable for this concept? I dont think so at all. Worse enough to dip rogue, dont weaken the character even more by that prc unless you want to be just a skillmonkey.

And you dont need ranger to gain access to EK.


Arcane trickster gives a significant amount of skill points and increases sneak attack while improving casting ability, it also gives some fun magical/rogue-like abilities. The only thing against the Arcane trickster is that it has a low BAB, it might be better suited for small races since they manage to keep a decent attack bonus easier. Still not a terrible choice, it comes along quite well in my campaign.

The ranger level is not needed, but useful if you want to go there from the spire defender archetype, trapper gives trap finding if you are interested in gaining that ability, a decent amount of skillpoints, medium armor which is/might be useful for the spire defender at level 7, it also can give favored terrain (urban) which again might increase skills which the OP is interested in. Same goes for barbarian and fighter : assuming the spire defender archetype, otherwise it is not needed.

rogue 3 magus 4 arcane trickster 4, gives 4d6 sneak attack, casting ability of an 8th level magus a BAB of 7 (1 behind on a full magus), more skill variety. (spire defender) (kitsune trickster)

bonus feats whip, dodge, expertise, one rogue talent, continuing with magus levels you get another bonus feat next level.

focus on dex, sneak attack and spells will keep damage decent enough, boost acrobatics with items to maneuver in flanking position, use heroism to gain skill and attack bonuses you will need.

personally I'd not take bladebound if you multi-class more than a single level though, but you can combine it with spire defender if you want.


Such a build is just not viable in CR appropriate combats. Its so much behind on almost everything else. Rogues will do better, single classed Magi will do better, Fighter will do better, wizards will do better - you will be an awesome skillmonkey but infight - meeh.


Wasum wrote:
Such a build is just not viable in CR appropriate combats. Its so much behind on almost everything else. Rogues will do better, single classed Magi will do better, Fighter will do better, wizards will do better - you will be an awesome skillmonkey but infight - meeh.

They will likely be better but the OP does not really want an optimized character, you simply can not have it all and be just as good as focused characters. The build is viable in CR appropriate encounters though, not the best but viable, and yes it will be an awesome skill-monkey.

The OP wants rogue levels in there with sneak attack, I assume that means at least 2d6 and wants to be a magus. Then you already fulfill the requirements of an arcane trickster, you can go on being a magus but taking a few levels of arcane trickster is not bad, I'd not take more than 4 since that will start to hurt your AB too much though.
4 levels only 'cost' you 1 AB and some hitpoints (8, dice + favored class) compared to continuing with magus, but gets you 2d6 sneak attack, 8 more skill points, ranged legerdemain and impromptu sneak attack. Several magus abilities will be delayed of course but it is not a terrible exchange, depending on what you want.


I do not know if this the best build but this can help...Try useing factional rules for your BaB instede of waiting till you get whole numbers. This will keep you more one line as what you BaB should be instead of being down 1 or 2 ponts. ie +1/2 per level for weak class, +3/4 for medium, and +1 strong BaB. Then add up only use the whole number. For exampel Rouge 3/ Magus 5/ AT 1, by the books is BaB of +5 at level 9 or if you use fractinal rules it +6 1/2 or +6 and will be +7 not matter what class you take at level 10. This keep you nearer to a normal pace.

On a differnet note what rouge like things are you wanting to do with this magus?

I mean is his main trick to cast true stike and trip/steal/dirty the bad guy?

If so a level of Diviner for 3 more true stike per day is not bad 1 level dip. With kicker abilty

Prescience (Su): At the beginning of your turn, you may, as a free action, roll a single d20. At any point before your next turn, you may use the result of this roll as the result of any d20 roll you are required to make. If you do not use the d20 result before your next turn, it is lost. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Intelligence modifier.

Also Craft Wonderous item for Pearl of power 1 to recall the True Stike spell.


True strike is level 1 - pearls of power are so cheap, I would NOT dip diviner just to save 3k GM


There is a whole lot of very helpful information here, and I will try to address things as best I can.

1) It is beginning to look like I can't salvage my damage if I focus on CMB shenanigans as a Magus.

2) Spire Defender AT is not available as I am not an elf and my GM is not inclined to break racial archetype rules, especially since there is just no RP value to my character having that.

3) It's not necessarily that I want Sneak Attack, it was just an option to maybe help my damage not lag because I am not as focused on offensive spellcasting.

I may just see where the campaign takes us and let the game shape my character as I go.


For damage - do not dip rogue. Dip full BAB. To hit is a Magus' main problem. Why dont you want to use offensive spellcasting?


It's not that I don't want to use it. As far as Magus goes, I consider "focusing on offensive spellcasting" to be taking the Magical Lineage trait and prioritizing Metamagic feats in order to wreck face with Shocking Grasp.

I think I will probably dip into the Lore Warden Fighter to achieve what I am trying to achieve.


MCPooge wrote:

There is a whole lot of very helpful information here, and I will try to address things as best I can.

1) It is beginning to look like I can't salvage my damage if I focus on CMB shenanigans as a Magus.

Well by "CMB shenanigns" you changed your roll from striker to melee Debuffer/Controler. With a whip and spell combat true stike you will be able to trip/ steal/ disarm/ pull/ dirty trick any fig on the board. To set the to be in the kill box on thier but. To take thier gear or weapon. Or make them blind or sick or what ever else you want with dity trick. This guy set the table for other guys in the party. To make any other melee guy stronger by settting flank puting them on thier but I +4 to hit them.


I just think its not worth true striking one maneuver per round. thats far less contribution than most other characters can bring to fight - like doing the same - same as good - while still doing damage.


Wasum, I agree with you! Hence, I am tossing a focus on CMB out the ole window. If someone severely needs disarmed, a Truestrike Spell Combat should give me a decent chance at doing so, without having to spend the entire career stacking stupid feats.


I agree you do not need the feat to do it. But it can work as magic control fighter. With just the whip and true strike.


Yea, but the amount of controll you contribute is not even compareable to any other kind of tripper (like lorewarden, oracles or even monks). Especially because trip itself is only situational.


It any Combat manuver BaB+STR+20insight is hard to beat.


Yea, but its just one. One target that falls prone. Woo - not that much of a deal. A lore warden can do this without spells and still dishes out lots of damage - and he can do it more than once per round. And even this requires more than one maneuver to be effectiv - and even then your controll is still miles behind wizards, whiches or sorcerers controlling abilities.


Tell me exactly why the Magus can only do it once a round? Alto once with the massive bonus of true strike but that does not mean can't do it more then once. Since all it takes one arcana to make their BaB for trip equal HD. They also just like anyone else can trip on a AoO.

The whole "Magic can do it better" thing is a bit pointless. If everyone played the game with that in mind no one would play anything but a full caster. But I for one would hate games that are that damn boring.


Magus does not do damage in the same round, magus does not have same as high CMB as the other mentioned, magus cant perform these meneuvers with a reach weapon and actually a magus can cast spells that are more powerful than just tripping a foe.


I disagree with that Wasum, if you use a maneuver you use it tactically. If you trip the BBEG that relies on devastating attacks you do not only hamper him from taking a full attack, but you also gives your allies and yourself +4 bonus to hit him with consecutive attacks and make him provoke attacks standing up. This might cause a lot of hits, allow crits to be confirmed and basically steal half the BBEG's round of actions.
Now it is hardly a big investment and not the character's 'role' to occasionally trip or disarm, but it is a single attack, likely you have another two to use for damage with better chance of hitting and possibly a swift action to spend.
The control is in some ways better than a wizard's that has more limited resources to do the really impressive stuff and often allows saves, spell resistance, ranged attack rolls, concentration checks and concealment, or just plain immunities / dispels and counters.
Too often the powerful controllers are not exactly effective at what they are supposed to do, a true striking maneuver is rarely thwarted and it is easier to predict when a creature is immune to certain maneuvers.


I would suggest making use of the scorpion whip since it allows you to perform the special maneuvers you want while allowing you the option of performing lethal damage.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Advice on how to proceed with my Magus? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.