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The General Question:
In PFS play, how customizable is spellcasting purchased from NPCs?
This is unclear to me, despite having gone through the Core Rulebook (p. 159, 163), the PFS Guide (p. 25), the FAQ (here), and a few recent threads (here, here, and here) on the subject. Some questions have been cleared up but a couple remain. I'm hoping for a clear and definitive answer, since it looks like I'm not the only one confused here!
I have two specific questions:
(1) Can PCs select the Caster Level of spellcasting purchased with gold (rather than Prestige)?
(2) If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, can the PC select which version of the spell is purchased? (This would be in contrast to the rule about Potions, Scrolls, and Wands that only the lower-level version is available.)
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#1 Though I think it's worth checking, I take it that the answer to #1 is an obvious yes. This is clearly implied by the following rule in the PFS Guide (p. 25): "Any spellcasting purchased using Prestige Points is cast at minimum caster level." This implies that spellcasting purchased with gold, rather than Prestige, can be customized as to Caster Level. And that makes sense, for as David Haller points out in another thread (link):
Having to go with the minimum caster level for spellcasting services could get quite expensive (consider if all bough remove disease spells had to be cast at 5th level, for example, possibly requiring multiple castings before it was effective!)
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#2 But #2 is a bit trickier. This seems to be a real point of confusion, and I would love to get a clear ruling. (Why does it matter? E.g. Continual Flame v. Darkness, since CF is a 3rd-level Cleric spell.) The previous threads on the question (linked above) don't quite get clear but a number of people cite the following text from the Potions, Scrolls, and Wands section (PFS Guide > Purchasing Equipment and Spells > Potions, Scrolls, and Wands; p. 25). I've reproduced the full text of the section, with relevant material in bold.
All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by clerics, druids, or wizards in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the cleric, druid, or wizard spell list. For example, a scroll of lesser restoration must be purchased as a 2nd-level scroll off the cleric spell list and may not be purchased as a 1st-level scroll off the paladin spell list. If a spell appears at different levels on two different lists, use the lower level spell to determine cost. As an example, poison would be priced as a 3rd-level druid spell instead of a 4th-level cleric spell. All potions, scrolls, and wands are available only at the minimum caster level unless found at a higher caster level on a Chronicle sheet.
For the sake of simplicity, there is no difference between an arcane and divine scroll or wand in Pathfinder Society Organized play. Thus a bard and a cleric may both use the same scroll of cure moderate wounds.
Finally, scrolls of spells of 7th level or higher are not permitted unless you gain access to them on a Chronicle sheet specifically listing them.
The question is whether there is a similar rule that in the case of Spellcasting Services, that if a spell appears on two lists you must purchase the lower-level version of the spell. The above text has been appealed to in threads on the subject as if it settles the question, but I don't think it does, for three reasons.
Because (1) the text in question is addressed to magic items (Potions, Scrolls, and Wands), not Spellcasting Services (which is addressed under its own heading). So the first supposition should be that the restriction doesn't apply.
Because (2) no such restriction is mentioned in the next column under the Spellcasting Services heading, even though other, similar restrictions (e.g. against 7th level spells) are mentioned under both headings. So we have even stronger reason to think that this particular restriction doesn't apply to Spellcasting Services.
Because (3) there is, at least at first glance, not the same sort of need for the rule in the case of Spellcasting Services as there is in the case of magic items. From the second text I've bolded in the above, it looks like the rules for Potions, Scrolls, and Wands are motivated by a need for standardization and simplicity: so that every item with a certain spell name attached will cost the same and work the same and be usable by every caster with the spell on the spell list (no cleric scroll v. wizard scroll). But those same sorts of reasons aren't present in the case of Spellcasting Services, so I don't see a reason for the restriction that would incline us to think it was intended but left out on accident (doesn't mean there isn't one or it wasn't intended, of course! just laying out my reasons).
So my reasoning suggests the conclusion that yes, the PC may opt to purchase the higher-level version of the spell .
I'm not insisting on that conclusion and I'm not attached to it. It's just the best sense I can make of the problem. I'm open to reasons or a ruling to the contrary! I just want the matter cleared up for good.
[Edited lightly for clarity and tone.]
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** Cost = (Caster Level x Spell Level x 10 gp) + Cost of Expensive Material Components
** Spells 7th level or higher cannot be purchased (except in case of "7th level or higher spells listed as available to be purchased by your faction")
** Other players are allowed to help you pay for Spellcasting Services
** "Any spellcasting purchased using Prestige Points is cast at minimum caster level"
** [Implied: spellcasting purchased using gold can be cast at whatever caster level]
** Cannot purchase Metamagic-ed spells
** Takes 24 hours (so that caster can prepare the spell)
** "Generally speaking, you can pay to have spells cast on you at any time during the scenario so long as you're in a settlement or have access to a church, temple, shrine, or wandering mystic"
** Spells that cost over 3,000 gp can only be purchased in a settlement with over 5,000 residents
** The spellcaster will never travel with the PCs
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For general PFS purchases, assume that spells are being purchased from Clerics and/or Wizards as appropriate, unless the spell in question is from the exclusive list from another class.
Thanks for the quick response, LazarX. I don't think this quite addresses my concern, though.
[Edit: Beat to it! Glad you came over from the other thread, Jiggy.]
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LazarX, how is that an answer? In particular it fails to address his stated example of continual flame, which is on both the wizard and cleric list, but at different levels.Because it's already answered by the Guide as quoted. Take the lower level spell cost and be done with it.
You can have a total of ONE continual flame and ONE mastework transformation effect that carries from module to module.
(1) See my original post for why the quotation in the guide doesn't close the case. I put some effort into making the problem clear, I hope you take a minute to look over it before jumping in.
(2) I don't see the relevance of the limit to a single Continual Flame. The question (my #2 in OP) is whether I can choose to have my one CF cast by a Cleric (3rd level spell) rather than a Wizard (2nd level spell).
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LazarX, how is that an answer? In particular it fails to address his stated example of continual flame, which is on both the wizard and cleric list, but at different levels.Because it's already answered by the Guide as quoted. Take the lower level spell cost and be done with it.
You can have a total of ONE continual flame and ONE mastework transformation effect that carries from module to module.
Except as was pointed out in the other thread, the lower cost thing is for potions, scrolls, and wands.
Not for spellcasting services.
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If the answer is not on the FAQ list, submit the thread for it. Because I assume the true agenda for this thead is handling those pesky Darkness spells.LazarX, how is that an answer? In particular it fails to address his stated example of continual flame, which is on both the wizard and cleric list, but at different levels.Because it's already answered by the Guide as quoted. Take the lower level spell cost and be done with it.
You can have a total of ONE continual flame and ONE mastework transformation effect that carries from module to module.
(1) See my original post for why the quotation in the guide doesn't close the case. I put some effort into making the problem clear, I hope you take a minute to look over it before jumping in.
(2) I don't see the relevance of the limit to a single Continual Flame. The question (my #2 in OP) is whether I can choose to have my one CF cast by a Cleric (3rd level spell) rather than a Wizard (2nd level spell).
The other threads also tried to get a FAQ on this, but maybe this time it will succeed.
For reference, here's my OP of the most recent thread, where I list all the effects that this decision will have:
The only thing I know for sure is that there's a messageboard clarification that you cannot find a witch of a specific patron to cast you a spell from their patron list (which I assume would generalize to domains and bloodlines as well). There's a bunch of reasons why this matters a reasonable bit.
Price--If you can pay a paladin to cast a lesser restoration for you, you can get yourself restored for 1/6 the price of a cleric (something that was so undesired in wands and scrolls back in the day that the whole wand and scroll system for PFS was patched to prevent it, so I can't believe the same isn't true for spellcasting services). There are numerous other instances of money-savers here, particularly with summoners.
Spell Level--In situations where higher spell level is an advantage (light and darkness spells are a good example), if spellcasting services are unrestricted, you can pay a bit more to get the spell at the highest possible spell level by finding the caster that gets the spell late entry.
Spells of 7th level or higher are never available--If you can get spells from a summoner (or a bard, but they have fewer good spells), then you can bypass this restriction, since all their spells are actually level 6 or lower.
Arcane/Divine--Sometimes it matters if a spell is arcane or divine. For example, if you can hire spellcasting services from a summoner, in addition to the monetary savings you can get on certain early-entry spells, you can also get an arcane barkskin, allowing a sorcerer or bard to learn barkskin with a ring of spell knowledge.
Now, I can't find anything other than my logic that spellcasting services would not break the trend established with scrolls, potions, and wands to directly support my guess, and I don't want to introduce table variation if lots of other GMs are allowing this, so I'd like to find a definitive answer.
As it stands now, in PFS it is unclear if you can customize your spellcasting. Only one chart is provided and that chart is for minimum caster levels of spells.
Because it is unclear you cannot do it. Maybe this will help clarify it for the next PFS Guide to Organized Play.
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If the answer is not on the FAQ list, submit the thread for it. Because I assume the true agenda for this thead is handling those pesky Darkness spells.
I have marked the thread as an FAQ candidate. Thanks for the suggestion. I hope to get it cleared up.
You're right, of course, that the question was prompted by thinking about how to handle Darkness. But I don't have a "true agenda" in the sense of being attached to a particular answer. I can find other ways to fight Darkness than a Cleric-cast Continual Flame.
Regardless of the particular thing that led me to the question, the question itself is a genuine one with implications that go beyond the Darkness case (as Rogue Eidolon points out).
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Here's the problem I see with many of these threads. Players for some reason try to keep their agenda hidden with what they really want, hoping for a general rules change or clarification so they can "stealth" something they really want as a result.
I see I made the wrong decision with my original post. I had minimized particular case that led me to the question because I didn't want to distract from the question itself. I thought I was clear enough about (1) why this is a genuine question and (2) the reasons I see on the question and (3) the conclusion those reasons lead me to and (4) the fact that I'm not trying to insist on that conclusion.
But if my intentions can be so misunderstood I must have erred. I am very much not trying to "stealth" through some nifty little gimmick (though I do think the CF gimmick nifty). But I guess I can see how you might think that. I'll go back and touch up the original post to try to make this clearer.
[Added. Hmmm. Can't edit OP now. I imagine this is a time-window? No matter. I'll let my replies to you for the past few posts stand. Even if you do think I have some sneaky agenda, I hope you can see that it would be irrelevant: the question is worth considering on its own merit whatever may be the case with regard to MY intentions for bring it up.
For (i) it's a real point of confusion in the rules that I'm not the first to bring up. (Whatever you think of my intentions, I assume Rogue Eidolon has a more established reputation around here!)
And (ii) the question is broader than any particular case, and worth addressing for more than the particular case that led me to it. See, again, the sort of thing that RE brings up above.]
[Added: Yeah, I've read back over the OP and I can definitely see how you got that impression. My bad! I'm not the best with the tone of my prose, and it messed me up here. Striving for clarity I failed to include the necessary explanation / apologia that would show why I brought it up and what I had staked in the matter—though I did try something to that effect, as you can see at the end of the post.]
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I apologize for resurrecting the old thread, but this issue has come up for me for an upcoming scenario and I couldn't find any kind of resolution of the issue.
Specifically, I'm wondering about number 1 mentioned in the original post, the ability to purchase spellcasting services at higher than minimum caster level.
If this has been resolved, could someone help me out and link me to that resolution, or, if it has not been resolved, would people please hit the FAQ button at the top?
Make Whole has been specifically called out as available (in cities of 5,001 or more people) at whatever caster level you need - even caster level 30 or 34 - to repair a broken or destroyed magic item.
I am unaware of a specific ruling on the general case, but the the two PFS GMs I've played with ruled that yes, you could purchase spellcasting services (remove disease/curse, dispel magic, etc.) at higher than minimum level.