Last I recall it's also fairly contested whether you can make the Celestial Armors out of mithral as the description of them notes a special material already (gold or silver or something like that). Unless there was a ruling one way or the other I wouldn't count on stacking mithral and celestial.
Here is what I would do myself:
Agile Strike (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility to inflict damage instead of raw strength.
Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Weapon Finesse, BAB + 1
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Those damages do not apply if you lose your dexterity bonus to AC or on creatures immune to precision damages. They are also not multiplied by 1.5 if used with a 2 handed weapon.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
It would feel balanced to me, slightly higher dext prerequisite than weapon finesse, less powerful than a true agile weapon, but more accessible.
Actually I even wonder if the 1.5 restriction for 2 hand weapons should not go away, hmmm. Maybe restrict it so that it doesn't work with power attack instead?
Here is what I would do myself:
Agile Strike (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility to inflict damage instead of raw strength.Prerequisites: Dexterity 15, Weapon Finesse, BAB + 1
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Those damages do not apply if you lose your dexterity bonus to AC or on creatures immune to precision damages. They are also not multiplied by 1.5 if used with a 2 handed weapon.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
It would feel balanced to me, slightly higher dext prerequisite than weapon finesse, less powerful than a true agile weapon, but more accessible.
Actually I even wonder if the 1.5 restriction for 2 hand weapons should not go away, hmmm. Maybe restrict it so that it doesn't work with power attack instead?
This looks really nice, I'll be copying it for the game. Light weapons can still take Pirahna Strike, while Rapier and Curved Blade users can snatch power attack if they feel like it.
Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Yeah, you can do it with the other classes. That's why I mentioned Mithral and Celestial armor.
Mithral Celestial mail allows full Dex up to dex 30. That's right, no armor training class features needed. Mithral Celestial plate allows up to a 24 Dex...but the low dex melee is highly unlikely to ever get his dex that high.
It's not rare armor, you can buy it and commission it, and you'd be stupid not to...it gives the absolute highest dex limits in the game. Sure, a fighter with armor training may not need it, especially if his dex is lousy. But everyone else, and a Dexterity specialist, will certainly do so.
It's also lighter armor, and the mail allows full movement bonuses that the plate, mithral or otherwise, doesn't give.
==Aelryinth
"You'd be stupid not to" comission a 34,000gp fullplate on an agile themed character. I think we're done here, I'm talking character concepts, while you're talking cheesing optimization to the min-max potential. I can hands down say I will never have a dex ranger in mithral celestial full plate in my group, because that concept is borderline dumb.
We have two dex users, ones a gunslinger, out of the 62k wbl gold they had, they just bought mithral breastplate, the other a mithral shirt.
Let me put it this way. If I had an imporved weapon finesse feat available, I would take it for any melee character I make except a barbarian.
Assuming 20 point buy, Human
Finesser, Str 10, Dex 18(16 + 2 racial), Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Chr 10
At level 1, get Weapon Finesse, Improved Weapon Finesse, level 3, get piranah strike instead of power attack, kukri, chain shirt, and light shield for 129 gold. +4 to hit, 1d4 + 4 damage, 19 AC, +4 reflex, +4 init.
Twohander, Str 18(16 + 2 racial), Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Chr 7
At level 1, Get Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Falchion and a Chain Shirt for 175 gold. +4 to hit for 2d4 +9 damage(power attacking), 16AC, +2 reflex, +2 init.
So at level 1, you have spent 46 gold more on equipment, and you are +7 damage, -3 AC, -2 reflex, -2 init, -1 SP/level to show for it. Since I like sneaky characters, the net +2 to stealth isn't a bad thing either.
The two hander will probably stay ahead in damage, but they are going to fall farther and farther behind on defenses from here. At level 10, you are looking at a 24 dex vs a 14 dex. That is a net +5 AC, +5 init, and +5 reflex save for the Finesser. The Finesser is also going to close the damage gap a lot by getting Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fighting. Finally, a Finesser who has to use a ranged weapon for any reason will be at a huge advantage over a Twohander.
DarkLeaf Studded Leather Armor is 925 Gold and gives you a +3 armor bonus with a +7 max dex bonus with an ACP of 0. Put a +2 enchant on it and combine it with my +2 light shield, and you are looking at a Base AC of 25 without any deflection or natural armor bonuses. That will keep me in good shape until I can commission some mithril celestial mail. In contrast, Full Plate with a 14 dex costs 1500 gold, and gives you a +10 AC. With a +2 enchant and a +2 shield, you are at the same AC of 25, but you spent 575 more gold, and you have a -6 ACP and -10 movement.
As for the comments about strength draining. An 8 point strength drain on a Two-handed fighter would significantly nerf their ability to deal damage(-4 to hit, -6 damage). Further, to keep the saves the same above, I had to gimp dump charisma AND int, so an 8 point drain on either stat will paralyze the two hander outright, so I am not sure how a 10 strength dex fighter is any more vulnerable to these tactics than most other characters.
TLDR: A feat like improved weapon finesse allows Two-weapon fighters to deal as much damage as a two hander at mid to higher levels without having to sacrifice defense. At level 10, this results is in roughly a net +5 reflex, +5 init, +5 AC, +1 will, +1 fort, and +1 hp per level on average for the cost of 2 feats.
Mine's nearly identical, Lauraliane. Same name and everything.
Agile Strike (Combat)
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Benefit: With a light weapon, or finesse weapon, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In the case of two-handed finesse weapons (like the elven curveblade), you do not apply 1-1/2 times your Dexterity modifier to damage rolls or gain the added (+50%) damage bonus when using Power Attack. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls when using this feat.
...Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Yeah, you can do it with the other classes. That's why I mentioned Mithral and Celestial armor.
Mithral Celestial mail allows full Dex up to dex 30. That's right, no armor training class features needed. Mithral Celestial plate allows up to a 24 Dex...but the low dex melee is highly unlikely to ever get his dex that high.
It's not rare armor, you can buy it and commission it, and you'd be stupid not to...it gives the absolute highest dex limits in the game. Sure, a fighter with armor training may not need it, especially if his dex is lousy. But everyone else, and a Dexterity specialist, will certainly do so.
It's also lighter armor, and the mail allows full movement bonuses that the plate, mithral or otherwise, doesn't give.
==Aelryinth
"You'd be stupid not to" comission a 34,000gp fullplate on an agile themed character. I think we're done here, I'm talking character concepts, while you're talking cheesing optimization to the min-max potential. I can hands down say I will never have a dex ranger in mithral celestial full plate in my group, because that concept is borderline dumb.
We have two dex users, ones a gunslinger, out of the 62k wbl gold they had, they just bought mithral breastplate, the
Besides the point that you'd look ghastly with a light shield and kukri, you have to fork over 159gp for +2 ac mw light shield to NOT get the -1 check penalty on your kukri attacks.
Combined with chain shirt, you're looking at -3 to dex skill unless you pay 300gp to make both armor and shield masterwork. The two hander can use the money saved on mw light shield to instead get an mw breastplate for a +7 ac.
Twohander, Mw Breastplate, Falchion.
+7 armor ac, +2 dex ac, 2d4+6 damage. -1 to hit, +3dmg from power attack.
Ac 19, reflex +2, initiative +2, +4 CMB, +6 CMD, Spent 425gp.
He can change to any two handed weapon he finds or feels like using, freely switching between any one hander and shield combinations. He has full CMD, all at cost of one feat (power attack).
Str isn't as precise as Finesser with his bow, but adds +4 to his attacks with composite longbow for 1d8+4 (arguably +6 since it's a two handed weapon).
It costs 50gp to remove the Finesser's dex to armor via tanglefoot bags.
It's cheaper to buy +reflex and +initiative than it is to get increased max dex or armor bonuses.
By the time the Finesser can utilize +7 dex, the Twohander is adding +10 from str, and +9 (I assume level 10 for 24 dex/str) from power attack and +1 from enchantment. Charging belt increases str by 2 and weapon size by one, he got keen by now too, so we're talking what. Charging at -0 to hit for 2d6 +20, critting at 15 or higher for double damage.
By getting Exotic(net) proficiency, or stacking on Tanglefoot bags, or performing a dirty trick with rope, he negates a Finessers' dex to ac.
It should be noted that being in a medium or heavy load does limit your max DEX to AC. Namely, you can't above +3 dex to AC with a medium load, or +1 with a heavy load. That low strength still hurt, at least at low levels (before mithril), and if you want to carry "extra" gear, it's gonna weigh you down even more.
It should be noted that being in a medium or heavy load does limit your max DEX to AC. Namely, you can't above +3 dex to AC with a medium load, or +1 with a heavy load. That low strength still hurt, at least at low levels (before mithril), and if you want to carry "extra" gear, it's gonna weigh you down even more.
But everyone has magical access to stuff like Bags of Holdings. Because villains are lawful stupid, they will never send a thief during the night to steal it or attempt sundering it mid-fight.
I personally love screwing up my enemies' all-in-one wealth pouch.
Which is why currently my character has his wealth spread all over. Handy haversack added to his robe armor, a cheap bag of holding for distraction, and Treasure Stitch available for dungeon piles, which he either teleports away to nearest safe location or hands over to his familiar. He rarely has more than 100gp, except his magic gear, accessible.
Sorry haven't read through the thread just thought I would put this here.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse; DEX 15
Benefit: You may add your DEX to Damage in place of STR when wielding any weapon normally usable with Weapon Finesse. You may also apply the benefits of Weapon Finesse to any weapon.
I typically allow this feat and see no problems. If fact I tend to see Rogues and TWF Builds more often.
Also remember that the Max Dex Limits from Armour doesn't limit the Attack Bonus for Ranged or Finesse attacks. So a Fighter using the above feat or just Weapon Finesse is fine using a Heavy Shield and Full-Plate while still using his higher DEX.
|
/sigh
All I want is the ability to make effective use of a katana instead of a scimitar with my kensai.
The choice between heavy armor and high mobility should be one of play style and personal preference. Limiting combat viability to a strength places severe restrictions on this and focuses players on a single choice - 2 handed weapons. The mobile, dexterity based fighter should be equally viable.
Consider this option: a rogue talent that allowed dexterity to damage with finesse weapons and an advanced rogue talent that allowed dexterity to damage for any weapon.
@Artanthos:
Prerequisites: Improved Weapon Finesse; DEX 17
Benefits: You may apply your DEX mod to damage in place of your STR mod on any weapon you wield.
I would just let Rogues get them similar to how they have Finesse Rogue.
Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Yeah, you can do it with the other classes. That's why I mentioned Mithral and Celestial armor.
Mithral Celestial mail allows full Dex up to dex 30. That's right, no armor training class features needed. Mithral Celestial plate allows up to a 24 Dex...but the low dex melee is highly unlikely to ever get his dex that high.
It's not rare armor, you can buy it and commission it, and you'd be stupid not to...it gives the absolute highest dex limits in the game. Sure, a fighter with armor training may not need it, especially if his dex is lousy. But everyone else, and a Dexterity specialist, will certainly do so.
It's also lighter armor, and the mail allows full movement bonuses that the plate, mithral or otherwise, doesn't give.
==Aelryinth
"You'd be stupid not to" comission a 34,000gp fullplate on an agile themed character. I think we're done here, I'm talking character concepts, while you're talking cheesing optimization to the min-max potential. I can hands down say I will never have a dex ranger in mithral celestial full plate in my group, because that concept is borderline dumb.
We have two dex users, ones a gunslinger, out of the 62k wbl gold they had, they just bought mithral breastplate, the other a mithral shirt.
And you'd just limit the AC you get from Dexterity, call it cutting off your nose to spite your Face.
um, yeah. However you choose to delibrately nerf yourself is fine.
But do kindly notice that the only one going to buy mithral Celestial Plate is somone who doesn't care about the move penalty, likely a paladin. Any other character will stick with Celestial Mail, which will do all the job up to a 28 Dex. If they have a Dex less then 22, mithral BP works just fine.
==Aelryinth
@Artanthos:
** spoiler omitted **
3.5 3rd party feat. Not likely to be admitted at almost any table.
The closest you get with Official 3.5 is Shadow Blade from Tome of 9 Swords, which limits the weapons you can use it with.
==Aelryinth
...Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Yeah, you can do it with the other classes. That's why I mentioned Mithral and Celestial armor.
Mithral Celestial mail allows full Dex up to dex 30. That's right, no armor training class features needed. Mithral Celestial plate allows up to a 24 Dex...but the low dex melee is highly unlikely to ever get his dex that high.
It's not rare armor, you can buy it and commission it, and you'd be stupid not to...it gives the absolute highest dex limits in the game. Sure, a fighter with armor training may not need it, especially if his dex is lousy. But everyone else, and a Dexterity specialist, will certainly do so.
It's also lighter armor, and the mail allows full movement bonuses that the plate, mithral or otherwise, doesn't give.
==Aelryinth
"You'd be stupid not to" comission a 34,000gp fullplate on an agile themed character. I think we're done here, I'm talking character concepts, while you're talking cheesing optimization to the min-max potential. I can hands down say I will never have a dex ranger in mithral celestial full plate in my group, because that concept is borderline dumb.
We have two dex users, ones a gunslinger, out of the 62k wbl gold they had, they just bought mithral breastplate, the
The only one to even consider a Mithral Celestial FP and 28 dex is a powergamer not welcome at most tables anyhow. Let's just agree to disagree, this will just continue to be rp concept vs minmaxed characters forth and back arguing anyway.
Considering the agility enhancement is still limited to a specific weapon perhaps it would be good to have it apply to all weapons for which you have the weapon focus feat.
weapon focus, weapon finesse would be my prerequisites, I would not discount strength penalties though.
orc fighter 4
str 22 dex 7 con 14
AC: 19, shield + full plate
+12 scimitar mw 1d8+8/18-20
goblin fighter 4
str 5 dex 22 con 14
AC: 22, studded leather + shield + dex + size
+13 scimitar mw 1d6+6/18-20
so we should compare these to see if balance is maintained, small creatures with similar stat adjustments seem to have the advantage.
they deal 1 less damage, but get +1 to hit, +3 AC and considerably better saves (reflex 8 better), +6 initiative and skill benefits at the cost of two feats, CMB is a bit worse but touch ac is much better.
They both invested the same amount of points here and have similar adjustments, but the goblin will turn out to be a much much better character though the orc has two more feats to spend it will not approach the goblin fighter in a fairly neutral sword and board style.
requiring a strength of 10 would restore some balance in this case :
orc
str 20 dex 12 con 14
AC 22
+11 scimitar 1d8+5
goblin
str 10 dex 20 con 14
AC 22 chain shirt + shield + size + dex
+12 scimitar 1d6+5
+1 to hit, -1 damage, same AC, reflex saves 4 better, +4 initiative and skill benefits. While still in favor of the goblin in my opinion it is much less obvious.
Lets see I'd go with something like this :
Agile Strikes
prerequisites: str 10, weapon focus, weapon finesse.
This feat can only be used with a melee weapon which is usable with the Weapon Finesse feat.
A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
You can only benefit from this feat in light or no armor and not more than light encumbrance.
Okay, a 28 Dex character is badwrongfun optimizing?
Start any human with a 20 Dex.
At level 12, you can afford a +6 Dex booster, and assign 3 pts to Dex.
You are now at a 29. Technically speaking, you could have a 28 by level 8 if you could afford the dex booster.
At level 20, you will spend the money for a +5 Tome, and have +5 Stat raises. You WILL have a 36 Dex, because it's your prime stat and you want it high.
That's not 'optimizing', that's 'standard progression for a dex-intense character.'
If you start with a mere 16 Dex, you will have 28 by level 16. That's simply how a Dex built character will advance, and RP has nothing to do with it.
==Aelryinth
@Artanthos:
** spoiler omitted **
3.5 3rd party feat. Not likely to be admitted at almost any table.
The closest you get with Official 3.5 is Shadow Blade from Tome of 9 Swords, which limits the weapons you can use it with.
==Aelryinth
It actually is a 3.5 WotC Feat NOT a 3PP Feat. It was from one of the Complete Books. I don't have a PDF of it though only access to my friend's Hardcopy but I can get access to it for about a week when they are out of town.
Okay, a 28 Dex character is badwrongfun optimizing?
Start any human with a 20 Dex.
At level 12, you can afford a +6 Dex booster, and assign 3 pts to Dex.
You are now at a 29. Technically speaking, you could have a 28 by level 8 if you could afford the dex booster.
At level 20, you will spend the money for a +5 Tome, and have +5 Stat raises. You WILL have a 36 Dex, because it's your prime stat and you want it high.
That's not 'optimizing', that's 'standard progression for a dex-intense character.'
If you start with a mere 16 Dex, you will have 28 by level 16. That's simply how a Dex built character will advance, and RP has nothing to do with it.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, if I have a Single Ability Dependent(SAD) character, I pretty much assume...
1. Start with an 16 or 18 in your main ability score.2. Pick a race that gives me a +2 to that ability score.
3. Put all of my ability score increases into that ability.
4. Get a magic item that give me +'s to that stat when it is about 25% of my wealth by level(6th for a +2, 10th for a +4, 14th for a +6)
5. Get a +5 tome at around level 18 or 19(roughly 25% of your WBL).
That means my stat would follow this progression assuming you start with a 16 base. Starting with an 18 base just adds 2 to all of these numbers.
1. 18 (base 16 +2 racial)
4. 19 (base 16 +2 racial +1 level)
6. 21 (base 16 +2 racial +1 level +2 enhancement)
8. 22 (base 16 +2 racial +2 level +2 enhancement)
10. 24 (base 16 +2 racial +2 level +4 enhancement)
12. 25 (base 16 +2 racial +3 level +4 enhancement)
14. 27 (base 16 +2 racial +3 level +6 enhancement)
16. 28 (base 16 +2 racial +4 level +6 enhancement)
18. 33 (base 16 +2 racial +4 level +6 enhancement +5 inherent)
20. 34 (base 16 +2 racial +5 level +6 enhancement +5 inherent)
That is a pretty normal progression for a SAD character. I would follow that stat progression for a int on a wizard, charisma on a sorcerer, or strength on a barbarian. I surely would do the same for a purely dex based melee character.
Just as an example...
Level 10, Human Ranger, 20 point Buy, Enemy with 24 AC
Agile Strike Feat Version
Str 10, Dex 24 (16 base +2 racial +4 enhancement +2 level), 14 con, 10 int, 16(14 +2 enhance) wis, 10 chr
Equipment: 2x +2 Kukri, +2 Darkleaf Studded Armor, Belt of Dex +4, Cloak of protection +3, Ring of deflection +2, Amulet of NA +1, Circlet of Wisdom
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Agile Strike, Piranah Strike, Two-Weapon fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Weapon Focus Kukri, Improved Critical(Kukri), Two Weapon Rend
AC: 26(Touch 19) (10 +5 armor +7 dex +1 shield +2 deflection +1 natural)
HP: 75 Saves: +12 Fort +17 Ref +9 Will Initiative: +7
Attack: +20(+10 BAB +7 Dex +2 Weapon +1 Weapon Focus) for 1d4 + 9(17-20/x2) Bow: +17 for 1d8 damage
Full Attack: Piranah Strike +15/+15/+10/+10 for 1d4 +15/12(17-20/x2) DPR: 36.5 55% chance to rend for 14 damage
Full Attack: Favored Enemy + Piranah Strike +21/+21/+16/+16 for 1d4 + 21/18(17-20/x2) DPR: 81.84 93% chance to rend for 20 damage
No Agile Strike Version
Str 10, Dex 24 (16 base +2 racial +4 enhancement +2 level), 14 con, 10 int, 16(14 +2 enhance) wis, 10 chr
Equipment: 2x +1 Agile Kukri, +2 Darkleaf Studded Armor, Belt of Dex +4, Cloak of protection +3, Ring of deflection +2, Amulet of NA +1, Circlet of Wisdom
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Piranah Strike, Two-Weapon fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Weapon Focus Kukri, Improved Critical(Kukri), Two Weapon Rend, Double Slice
AC: 26(Touch 19) (10 +5 armor +7 dex +1 shield +2 deflection +1 natural)
HP: 75 Saves: +12 Fort +17 Ref +9 Will Initiative: +7
Attack: +19(+10 BAB +7 Dex +1 Weapon +1 Weapon Focus) for 1d4 + 8(17-20/x2) Bow: +17 for 1d8 damage
Full Attack: Piranah Strike +14/+14/+9/+9 for 1d4 + 14/11(17-20/x2) DPR: 30.6 46% chance to rend for 14 damage
Full Attack: Favored Enemy + Piranah Strike +20/+20/+15/+15 for 1d4 + 20/17(17-20/x2) DPR: 73.1 88% chance to rend for 19 damage
Two-hand version
Str 24 (16 base +2 racial +4 enhance +2 level), 12 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 16(14 +2 enhance) wis, 8 chr
Equipment: +3 falchion, +2 Agile Breastplate, +3 cloak of resistance, +4 belt of strength, +2 circlet of wisdom, Ring of deflection +2
Feats: Weapon Focus(Falchion), Power attack, Cleave, Furious Focus, Shield of Swings, Lightning Reflexes, Improved Init, Dodge, Improved Critical(Falchion)
AC: 22(touch 12) (10 +8 armor +1 dex +2 deflection +1 dodge)
HP: 75 Saves: +12 Fort +13 Reflex +9 Will Initiative: +5
Attack: +21 (+10 BAB +7 Str +3 Weapon +1 Focus) for 2d4 + 13(17-20/x2) Bow: +11 for 1d8 +7 damage
Full Attack: Power Attack +21/+13 for 2d4 + 22(17-20/x2) DPR: 45.4
Full Attack: Favored Enemy + Power Attack +27/+19 for 2d4 + 28(17-20/x2) DPR: 69.3
So not only does the Agile ranger have +4 AC, +7 touch AC, +4 Ref, +2 Initiative, +10 (+6 dex, +4 armor check) stealth, and +6 to hit with a bow, but against favored enemies, the agile ranger does 17% more damage. If I did similar builds with a smiting paladin or fighter, I would expect to get similar results.
Edit: Added non favored enemy damage, and fixed math errors
Well, my own problem was solved by feedback from those who actually tried it in a non powergaming environment, so I'll just see how it turns out, thanks for that.
@Charander
Fun fact, your ranger can carry 15kg, so lifting a child puts you in medium load and caps your dex to ac at +3 and 20ft base speed. Thing about dex to ac, is how easy it is to hinder and reduce it, there's probably more ways than I personally know of, top of the hat we got Tanglefoot Bags, Nets, Dirty Tricks with belts, pants and ropes.
If a villain dislikes the agile hero enough, he'll get some Dust of Weighty Burdens, expensive unless crafted, but gives the target Heavy or Medium encumberance for 2d4 rounds, meaning +3 or +1 dex to ac.
Well, my own problem was solved by feedback from those who actually tried it in a non powergaming environment, so I'll just see how it turns out, thanks for that.
@Charander
Fun fact, your ranger can carry 15kg, so lifting a child puts you in medium load and caps your dex to ac at +3 and 20ft base speed. Thing about dex to ac, is how easy it is to hinder and reduce it, there's probably more ways than I personally know of, top of the hat we got Tanglefoot Bags, Nets, Dirty Tricks with belts, pants and ropes.If a villain dislikes the agile hero enough, he'll get some Dust of Weighty Burdens, expensive unless crafted, but gives the target Heavy or Medium encumberance for 2d4 rounds, meaning +3 or +1 dex to ac.
First, a fighter with a 50 strength would be heavily encumbered by a direct hit from the Dust of Weighty Burdens. How exactly is that something specific that an Agile warrior specifically needs to worry about? Ditto for dirty tricks and tanglefoot bags. You might as well have said, "It is a melee character, and it can be countered by anything that counters melee". Also,
Second, almost all of your counters require a hit on AC, touch AC, or CMD, which the agile ranger is equal to(CMD) if not better(+4 AC, +7 Touch AC) at avoiding in the first place. Still not seeing how only having a 10 strength makes me worse off.
Third, ok, a few of these effects(like blind) are slightly worse for an agile ranger... So basically, if the villains plan ahead, use specific tactics designed to cripple a finesse based character, and actually manage to hit the character, then the Agile Strike Ranger becomes only slightly better than a non-agile melee character(19 AC(Dex Ranger) vs 20 AC(STR ranger), but Agile Ranger has more damage, +7 init, and +17 reflex save). So, if you are countered, you are only slightly better than your counterparts instead of way better, how does that make it balanced?
Fourth, I spent less than an hour on all 3 of those builds, and I specifically picked ranger because that class is suboptimal in this case(paladin smiting, flanking vivisectionist, or fighter will all come out even better).
Finally, my group plays by the convention that the DM uses the same rules and feats as the players, so my players know I can and will send highly optimized murder machines at the players as NPCs. How would you deal with my Agile Strike Ranger as a level 8 party outside of hitting him with a save or suck spell and praying he fails the save? What if he sneaks up on the party with +20 to stealth? Init +7, surprise round moves in close on the arcane caster, goes first in the normal round, and boom, there is a really good chance that the one party member that has the best chance of stopping him is dead before anyone in the party gets to act. I could easily see the agile strike ranger to wiping out a level 8 party, that alone tells me he should be classified as CR 11 or 12.
Its your game, and you can play it however you like. I have shown you the specific situations where it can be overpowered. If you used it in one weapon builds without natural attacks(IE like dervish dance), it is a good feat. If you allow it to be used in TWF builds especially if you allow it to work with natural attacks, it quickly becomes very overpowered
alchemist cannot use extra limbs for additional attacks. Agile works with anything that is considered a light weapon, so it already works with natural attacks.
alchemist cannot use extra limbs for additional attacks. Agile works with anything that is considered a light weapon, so it already works with natural attacks.
You might want to recheck that...
Vestigial Arm (Ex)
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
Hence why I have the alchemist wielding weapons in the vestigial arms, and using claws on the normal arms.
so the fact that you have natural attacks that are giving you extra attack actions works how? You have more attack actions in a round, therefore you are breaking the rules. You can use the weapons instead of your natural attacks, or you can use natural attacks, as long as they add up to your two weapon fighting hard limit.
No more attack actions per round means no more than you would have without those hands.
|
Ugh.
That's not giving you extra actions, or attacks.
The frikken arms don't lessen you ability to do everything, as some would like you to believe.
If the natural attacks gained were a gore, or wing attacks, would you be unable to use them due to the Discovery?
Would it suddenly stop the PC from making an unarmed strike, and an attack with armor spikes.
No.
The claws gained give extra attacks(in a sense) and not the arms.
The Alchemist is making two weapon attacks, through the use of two weapon fighting, which anyone can do.
He is adding to that full attack, natural attacks, which anyone with natural attacks can do.
There are no "extra" attacks happening.
You know, I never considered that the natural attacks could because they were added after.... hmmm.