I was slow in posting there, my last post debating dexterity damage and two-handed weapons was specifically directed at kyrt-ryder.
Edit: Wow, this thread is updating fast.
My issue with making the Curve Blade get 1.5 dexterity to damage is that then you have one of the most viable weapons in the game (available for free to elves and half-elves) completely eliminate any reason to use Strength, or indeed other two-handed weapons.
You run into the Scimitar issue caused by Dervish Dancer all over again.
Why use a falchion and strength when the Curve Blade and dexterity does the exact same thing but also gives you better touch AC, movement speed (from lighter armor), skill bonuses, initiative, and reflex saves?
I don't think two feats is a high enough price to make strength completely useless. I do think two feats is a high enough price to open a new and interesting play style.
That's why I'd open up Dervish Dancer to finesse weapons, but I'd still rule that you'd need one hand free.
I'll bite, these are all very reasonable and valid point. For the general public. Remember that this is for me to get an opinion on a possible balance issue in a specific game.
We have characters set and people won't be all flying for curve blades or finesse weapons because of this. We have an str sword and board Saladin with high strange and cha, barbarian oracle in fullplate, a ranger barred and a gunslinger ranger, it's a fairly high fun restart game. This Is for me to make sure that my wizard alchemists isn't. cheesed out by applying his dexter to finesse weapons while on team with 20 str melee fighters in full armor.
The reason two feats is probably not expensive enough is because of the benefits that accrue with a high Dex.
let's say you've a 10 Str and 20 Dex. If you couldn't do it you'd do a more reasonable 16 str 14 dex.
With Finesse and Agile as feats you now get: +2 to damage, +2 to hit, +3 to initiative, +3 to AC, +3 to a broad array of dex based skills, and +3 to Reflex saves. Also +3 to archery hit rolls on those secondary weapons, although you'll probably use a crossbow instead of a bow so you get the same bonus to damage.
You lose: Nothing except carrying capacity. So you can't open doors...oh well! Can you name two feats that can give you the same array of abilities if you stayed a 16/14 Fighter type? No?
That's why Agile as a feat is too powerful, and really shouldn't exist as a weapon ability, either. A high Dex build is overall more defensive, barely less offensive, and much more versatile.
==Aelryinth
I remember runnign comparisons at level 20 with Dex instead of Str to damage, comparing 30/20 str/dex with 20/30 str/dex build, and the Dex build came out so far ahead on so much more stuff it wasn't funny.
==Aelryinth
You can buy the 13 Str from a 10 or 11 with a belt at later levels.
I agree feats aren't strong enough, especially fighters using combat feats.
However, the problem here is not the strength of feats...it's the strength of stats. And Dexterity is simply a far more powerful and versatile stat then Strength is.
What you've got is a stat that reduces and eliminates the need for a stat that's main use is only for combat offense. In return, you're adding offense to a stat good for defense and versatility, so you have everything together.
That's the problem with this, not relative feat strength. If Strength did a lot more things, it wouldn't be an issue.
Here's a counter-example: Feat 1: You add your Strength score instead of your Dexterity score to your AC, and all ranged attacks.
Feat 2: You add your Strength score instead of your Dex score to your Initiative and Reflex saves, and any four Dex-based skills.
If you can swing the above two feats, then yeah, Agile should be available as a feat.
==Aelryinth
Last bite before I sleep.
The str fighter has same stats, 16 strength, 14 dex.
He has +3 to hit and damage, +4 damage with two handers and +4 damage with composite bows, +2 ac, +2 initiative, skills, reflex. He can wear any armor because he won't stealth as often, wear any shield because it's check penalty doesn't apply to his weapons, use any one or two handed weapon and not only light or exotic finesse only.
On top he has two spare feats and can apply power attack to his attacks (light weapons can't), he also carries more, swims better and climbs better and can break doors, objects and bindings and as mentioned above cmd. Chances are he's a full bab class compared to skill monkeys so he comes out ahead with to hit and iterative attacks.
The only time dex has more versatility if he plays rogue, ranger or bard who have skill points up their wazoo to Invest in dex skills. Druids and moments are arguable, utility those ttwo are fairly easy Tobin-max with either stat.
Pst: Corvo, in Pathfinder Light Weapons CAN Power Attack, although a dex-build that's only using Light Weapons might get away with Piranha Strike instead.
My bad, I see it now, been misreading. Str still has the versatility of swapping between one and two handers at whim tho. And even when pushing stats to 20, it seems cheaper to get +reflex and initiative than Ac.
Perfectly reasonable, improved critical seems to indicate a feat is worth +1 (keen) so it isn't that much of a leap.
The difference is that Improved Critical has a minimum level requirement of 10; its even higher if you're a Medium or Poor base attack class.
At the very least, an Agile Weapon feat would need to have Weapon Finesse as a Prerequisite. If you're attempting to balance it against the Dervish Dancer feat (same thing, but only to Scimitars) then you might even want to throw Weapon Focus into the mix and state that Agile only works for weapons that you possess Weapon Focus with.
If you wanted to tone down the power even more, you could add that anything that causes you to lose your Dex bonus to AC also causes you to lose your Dex bonus to attack rolls.
There's a feat weapon abilities that do same as feats, such as Keen and Cleave. How broken would it be for Agile to be a feat that allows applying Dex to dmg with Finesse weapons? Got an agile character, but his damage is lacking if he doesn't use an Agile weapon.
Not broken at all. It's one of my house rules. Weapon Finesse is available automatically when using any light weapon and the actual Weapon Finesse feat provides a similar bonus to damage as the Agile weapon enchantment (with caveats such as it doesn't affect creatures immune to crit and can't be used with Power Attack).
With this feat, you can actually make viable Dex based PCs at level 1.
There's a feat weapon abilities that do same as feats, such as Keen and Cleave. How broken would it be for Agile to be a feat that allows applying Dex to dmg with Finesse weapons? Got an agile character, but his damage is lacking if he doesn't use an Agile weapon.Not broken at all. It's one of my house rules. Weapon Finesse is available automatically when using any light weapon and the actual Weapon Finesse feat provides a similar bonus to damage as the Agile weapon enchantment (with caveats such as it doesn't affect creatures immune to crit and can't be used with Power Attack).
With this feat, you can actually make viable Dex based PCs at level 1.
Huh, I like this one, it's pretty darn nice.
I've been using a feat like this for a while, but have run into a slight problem. Not much of one, but a problem nonetheless.
If players can make use of the feat, so too can enemies. It gets a little wonky with some monsters. For example, a raven (CR 1/6) attacking at +4 and dealing 1d3+2 just seems a little... off.
Ravens have Weapon Finesse though. So, if we're allowing "Dex-to-hit" as a weapon property, and converting the feat into "Dex-to-damage", ravens already can. I don't know what you mean by 3 hit dice. Are you implying that there should be a BAB +3 prerequisite or something?
Ah, yes--that makes sense. I hadn't thought about it that way. You've solved my problem. Thanks, haha!
Personally I think I'd go with Improved Finesse feat, it'd be easier get across the board of my players. Some still feel that Dex gives too much compared to Str without really realizing the feats and equipment limitations dex puts on character, more than halving their armor and weapon choices while requiring exotic proficiency for finesse one handers beyond rapier.
Speaking of weapons, I have always granted scimitars the "finesse" weapon property. Seems to be an oversight that it lacks that property already.
My alchemist might be a bit strong now, ashes has feral mutagen, giving three attacks. Well, he depends on full round actions and pounce from mutagen to stay on par our barbarian sorcerer.
Has it been noted that Improved Crit only applies to one weapon, and this could be a possible balancing factor for the proposed Improved Finesse feat?
It has. I passing it as an example that feats and Item abilities could be can be the same. I'm really sorry if my wording doesn't make it cLear that this is for an existing game, not general balance, so exploiting shouldn't be an issue, I'm just gathering opinions and ideas to make sure I ain't breaking something massively.
In this case, it seems to be such a small difference between str and dex users that it might work.
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Last bite before I sleep.
The str fighter has same stats, 16 strength, 14 dex.
He has +3 to hit and damage, +4 damage with two handers and +4 damage with composite bows, +2 ac, +2 initiative, skills, reflex. He can wear any armor because he won't stealth as often, wear any shield because it's check penalty doesn't apply to his weapons, use any one or two handed weapon and not only light or exotic finesse only.On top he has two spare feats and can apply power attack to his attacks (light weapons can't), he also carries more, swims better and climbs better and can break doors, objects and bindings and as mentioned above cmd. Chances are he's a full bab class compared to skill monkeys so he comes out ahead with to hit and iterative attacks.
The only time dex has more versatility if he plays rogue, ranger or bard who have skill points up their wazoo to Invest in dex skills. Druids and moments are arguable, utility those ttwo are fairly easy Tobin-max with either stat.
He has +3 Damage with Composite bows, and +2 to hit with missile weapons.
The Dex guy can wear any armor that allows his Dex, because he doesn't have to stealth, either. Unlike the Str user, he's going to be naturally good at Stealthing.The dex wearer can use a Masterwork Darkwood or mithral light shield without penalty to anything if he so chooses, giving up at most 1 AC.
As noted, Power Attack and Piranha Attack both work for the dex user.
We're talking about building a dex-based melee build, probably a swashbuckling fighter, so they are both full BAB.
The Dex user with 20 Dex actually gains 1 pt of damage on two handed weapons, and 2 points on one handed weapons, because he's got a higher main stat (20 = +5 dmg).
His touch AC is 3 points higher.
He'll max out his fighter class Dex AC bonus all the way.
His default AC is 3 higher. So is his initiative, Reflex save, and many Dex-based skills (including the aforementioned Stealth).
His damage with bows is down...except with his extra +3 to hit, he can afford Deadly Aim and easily surpass the Strength bonus, and it applies to crossbows, where he can pick up an additional +3 damage with Sniper (+1/2 dex to damage).
He's a natural for a TWF build, because he's already got the Dex reqs. His higher TH means he actually hits as well as someone with a 16 Str while using two weapons!
All this for two feats, three if you include Deadly Aim. He hits more and does more damage with both melee and missile weapons, has better saves, better AC and Touch AC, better skill mods, and the only thing he loses is carrying capacity.
For two feats, why wouldn't you do this?
==Aelryinth
I wouldn't take it because it's limiting and character specific. This time it fits my character, so I'd take it. Normally I'd go for Str.
This is just plain, let's say high power, no magic items or special materials, enough for any one kind of mw weapons and mw armor your character would need.
20 str allows me to wear a mw fullplate for a +10 ac bonus and another +1 from the capped 12 dex. I can use any armor, shield or weapon and add full str to comp bow and thrown attacks, picking up vital if I want to double them. That's default martial class, no feats spent.
A dex martial with 20 dex, 12 str is limited to studded leather if he wants to keep all his dex to ac, capping at +5 from dex, +4 from mw studded for +9. He has more touch, str has more normal.
Using one-handers and shield, str will be ahead at least +3 ac, can use any weapon he wants without gimping himself, not hitting below 1d8+5 unless he has no access to one handers. The dex guy needs a light weapon, a rapier or an exotic one-hander just match him in damage. Special materials match him in ac and gear versatility.
If he ever upgrades his dex, he needs a lower ac armor to increase his touch ac. Str martial won't twf as well, but he's two feats richer if he ever decides to.
Why would you cap your item versatility for improved touch and reflex unless it's for character fluff and aesthetic?
Strength is also useful for CMB / CMD. Dex based fighters need to worry about getting grappled, so they should put some of their limited skill points into Escape Artist.
Strength is also useful for CMB / CMD. Dex based fighters need to worry about getting grappled, so they should put some of their limited skill points into Escape Artist.
I always forget that!
Also, weight limit is underrated. Being able to carry between 133 - 400lbs if we go with the 20 in the main stat, vs 43 - 130lbs with a minimal of 12 str for a dex user. Sure we can buy muleback cords and such, but we can also buy a cloak of resistance for Reflex and a ring of Protection or +dex items for touch ac.The str martial gets best of both, hit/dmg from, saves and defense from dex, even in full plate he will have better initiative and reflex as well as a few dex skills.
Perfectly reasonable, improved critical seems to indicate a feat is worth +1 (keen) so it isn't that much of a leap.
I felt the same way and homebrewed it more or less. You can see there were differing opinions on the subject.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pit7?Natural-Enchantment#1
TL;DR
We have an str barbarian, str paladin, dex gunslinger(for obvious reasons) and dex ranger(point blank archer). Dunno bout your players, but I doubt our str players would revamp the whole character concept based on dex to damage, seeing as they love the aesthetics of full shield and armor.
This question is for an existing game, I'm pretty sure I mentioned it. It's not for general balancing question spanning every player in the community. It's for a game barely started with time left for tuning.
In my experience, an dex to damage feat is a little bit too good for dual wielders. Remember that the feat replaces a +1 to hit and damage on both weapons. Further, I am not entirely sure that agile isn't underpriced at a +1.
The dervish dance feat specifically requires you to fight with one hand empty, which limits its utility to dual wielders. Even with all those limitations, Dervish Dance is a still a very strong feat. I have aa Vivisectionist 8/Ranger 2 build that can deal around 110 damage per round with a full attack while having a 35AC. If I had a feat that let me add dex to damage so that I could change the build to dual wield kukris, my damage would go up to around 130.
That said, I am testing out a feat that lets you add half dex to damage on any finesse weapon. I think that would be a bit more reasonable.
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In my game I have finesseable as a weapon property (On all weapons that Weapon Finesse normally applies to) that allows Dex to be used in place of Str for attack rolls, and the Weapon Finesse feat switches Dex for Str to damage, with a finesseable weapon.
I haven't had any problems with that arrangement.
Strength is also useful for CMB / CMD. Dex based fighters need to worry about getting grappled, so they should put some of their limited skill points into Escape Artist.I always forget that!
Also, weight limit is underrated. Being able to carry between 133 - 400lbs if we go with the 20 in the main stat, vs 43 - 130lbs with a minimal of 12 str for a dex user. Sure we can buy muleback cords and such, but we can also buy a cloak of resistance for Reflex and a ring of Protection or +dex items for touch ac.The str martial gets best of both, hit/dmg from, saves and defense from dex, even in full plate he will have better initiative and reflex as well as a few dex skills.
CMD has both str and dex, so having 10 str and 20 dex is the same as having 20 str and 10 dex.
For BMC there's "agile maneuvers" feat...
And for carring capacity there's a handy haversack for 2000 gp... which any level two character can afford.
So, for just another feat you have the best meelee character ever... How is that not broken?
Strength is also useful for CMB / CMD. Dex based fighters need to worry about getting grappled, so they should put some of their limited skill points into Escape Artist.I always forget that!
Also, weight limit is underrated. Being able to carry between 133 - 400lbs if we go with the 20 in the main stat, vs 43 - 130lbs with a minimal of 12 str for a dex user. Sure we can buy muleback cords and such, but we can also buy a cloak of resistance for Reflex and a ring of Protection or +dex items for touch ac.The str martial gets best of both, hit/dmg from, saves and defense from dex, even in full plate he will have better initiative and reflex as well as a few dex skills.
CMD has both str and dex, so having 10 str and 20 dex is the same as having 20 str and 10 dex.
For BMC there's "agile maneuvers" feat...
And for carring capacity there's a handy haversack for 2000 gp... which any level two character can afford.
So, for just another feat you have the best meelee character ever... How is that not broken?
Agile maneuvers. So that's three feats to match an unfeated Str char. Not everyone depends on magical pouches, not every game has magic market of "I have what you want". Then again I love handy haversacks, it means my familiar can steal all your wealth in one steal check.
I dint think it's broken because we don't play with obvious min-maxers. You say it's broken to have more touch ac, reflex and initiative while limited to a dozen weapons below 1d8 weapons. Far as I've seen, besides rapier, any finesse weapon above 1d6 is exotic, so that's another feat.
I just don't see how spending four feats to have a tiny situational benefut is broken when power attack and decent armor puts the default strength character ahead anyway.
Such a character needs to cheese out his dexterity and sacrifice most of his stats just to keep up. It's cheaper to buy initiative and reflex items than armor in the long run.
I wouldn't take it because it's limiting and character specific. This time it fits my character, so I'd take it. Normally I'd go for Str.
This is just plain, let's say high power, no magic items or special materials, enough for any one kind of mw weapons and mw armor your character would need.
20 str allows me to wear a mw fullplate for a +10 ac bonus and another +1 from the capped 12 dex. I can use any armor, shield or weapon and add full str to comp bow and thrown attacks, picking up vital if I want to double them. That's default martial class, no feats spent.
A dex martial with 20 dex, 12 str is limited to studded leather if he wants to keep all his dex to ac, capping at +5 from dex, +4 from mw studded for +9. He has more touch, str has more normal.
Using one-handers and shield, str will be ahead at least +3 ac, can use any weapon he wants without gimping himself, not hitting below 1d8+5 unless he has no access to one handers. The dex guy needs a light weapon, a rapier or an exotic one-hander just match him in damage. Special materials match him in ac and gear versatility.
If he ever upgrades his dex, he needs a lower ac armor to increase his touch ac. Str martial won't twf as well, but he's two feats richer if he ever decides to.
Why would you cap your item versatility for improved touch and reflex unless it's for character fluff and aesthetic?
Full Plate is +9 AC, +1 for the 12 dex is +10.
Studded Leather is +3, +5 for the Dex is +8. There's a 1 pt increase in max combo per level of armor.However, this situation is reversed as soon as Mithral BP becomes available. +6 AC, +5 Dex is +11.
And keep in mind that this is level 2-3. So the melee doing this is moving 20, vs the Dex guy moving 30 or 40.
As soon as we start adding Fighter Armor Training in, things can get silly quick.
Mithral Celestial Plate with Fighter +4 training allows up to a +11 Dex bonus! The low dex fighter will never be able to get his Dex high enough to take advantage of this, and will consequently fall behind in AC. He's also going to be waaaay behind on initiative, Reflex saves, and missile fire, and only ahead on damage with two handed weapons (where he gives up his ability to use a heavy shield and so falls further behind on AC again).
'Mere' Mithral Celestial Mail allows a 30 Dex before Fighter training..a 38 with it. There is no 'normal' armor combo that can possibly equal what Celestials' +4 buff to the Dex limit does.
So, yeah, I'm not seeing an AC problem much at all. With Deadly Aim, the Dex guy will have damage comparable to Mr. Biceps, and hit more with ranged weapons; do equal damage with any one-handed weapon; and be a whopping 5 points with 2h'ers.
In return, he's probably going to be +5 AC, +5 Init, +5 Reflex saves, +5 to Dex skills, +5 Touch AC at level 20, +5 TH with ranged attacks and likely more before level 20, because he'll up his Dex as primary and likely be sitting on a 28 before Biceps hits a 16 Dex.
There aren't any 2 or 3 feats you can take to narrow that gap sufficiently.
==Aelryinth
Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Yes, they can. A Switch Hitting ranger would get a lot of mileage out of a feat that lets them use one stat to hit and damage for melee and hit for ranged. The would have to go for lighter armor, but they would still end up with at least a net +2 to ref, init, to hit, and to damage over someone who did not take the feat.
No, I was referencing the 'Weapon Finesse + Improved Weapon Finesse' discourse from up-thread, which would mean that Ravens (and Rats and such) couldn't take the Improved feat until they got their third hit die.
Something to take into consideration with the 'Everybody can wield appropriate weapons with dex and the feat Weapon Finesse grants dex-based melee damage' rule though, is that 'Weapon Finesse' is automatically granted to the small animals in the same way that this rule change is suddenly granting its default benefits to everyone. That's not one of their real feats being spent.
Under such a house-rule there is plenty of legitimacy to stripping away the Weapon Finesse feat from animals that are given it outside their hit-die based feat progression.
Yes.
Mithral Celestial Plate with Fighter +4 training allows up to a +11 Dex bonus! The low dex fighter will never be able to get his Dex high enough to take advantage of this, and will consequently fall behind in AC. He's also going to be waaaay behind on initiative, Reflex saves, and missile fire, and only ahead on damage with two handed weapons (where he gives up his ability to use a heavy shield and so falls further behind on AC again).
You can get that situation today with either Agile weapon (worst case scenario: 2H with an elven curved blade, which can be used with power attack) or Dervish Dance. I'm not sure what your point is.
Without power attack, a Dex based light weapon fighter will always be doing significantly less than a 2H str-based power attacker.
In my experience, an dex to damage feat is a little bit too good for dual wielders. Remember that the feat replaces a +1 to hit and damage on both weapons. Further, I am not entirely sure that agile isn't underpriced at a +1.
I have a 4th level PFS monk with an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, and he's viable only. 2H fighters still do 2-3 times more damage than I do and rarely miss. Don't even get me started with archers or Summoners.
Like I was saying, if you remove the Agile enchant and "Dervish Dance" and make a new feat that allows Dex to damage opponents but does not affect creatures who can't be crit and can't be used with Power Attack, it's balanced. It's actually a big limitation since a lot of melee damage is coming from Power Attack in PF. So yes, you have more AC potentially, better Init, but you're still doing a lot less damage.
If you wanted to take it a step further, you could make it precision damage. That's a huge limitation (and one I choose not to make PCs in my home game deal with).
The community often complain that Dex-based melee PCs (monks, rogues) are too weak (and I agree), this at least makes them a little more viable in my experience. Dex based PC are also heavily feat taxed, unlike str-based melee PCs.
Also in my experience, PCs who rely on Dex for their AC and don't have Uncanny Dodge, usually get smashed when flat footed or surprised. And they get abused in combat maneuvers. So there are good and bad things about Dex PCs.
Anyway, that's all I have to say. It's been working very nicely in my home game and even my Dex-based monk in PFS with the Agile amulet is really not that powerful. Just viable.
Yes. That's right. Stack all of your ability points into Dexterity. My victory over you when I use Bestow Curse to drop you to 1 Strength, making you barely able to move under the weight of your own clothing, all the sweeter ....
Yikes, sorry Kyrt. Copy paste error. :)
Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Yeah, you can do it with the other classes. That's why I mentioned Mithral and Celestial armor.
Mithral Celestial mail allows full Dex up to dex 30. That's right, no armor training class features needed. Mithral Celestial plate allows up to a 24 Dex...but the low dex melee is highly unlikely to ever get his dex that high.
It's not rare armor, you can buy it and commission it, and you'd be stupid not to...it gives the absolute highest dex limits in the game. Sure, a fighter with armor training may not need it, especially if his dex is lousy. But everyone else, and a Dexterity specialist, will certainly do so.
It's also lighter armor, and the mail allows full movement bonuses that the plate, mithral or otherwise, doesn't give.
==Aelryinth
Agile maneuvers. So that's three feats to match an unfeated Str char. Not everyone depends on magical pouches, not every game has magic market of "I have what you want". Then again I love handy haversacks, it means my familiar can steal all your wealth in one steal check.
I dint think it's broken because we don't play with obvious min-maxers. You say it's broken to have more touch ac, reflex and initiative while limited to a dozen weapons below 1d8 weapons. Far as I've seen, besides rapier, any finesse weapon above 1d6 is exotic, so that's another feat.
I just don't see how spending four feats to have a tiny situational benefut is broken when power attack and decent armor puts the default strength character ahead anyway.
Such a character needs to cheese out his dexterity and sacrifice most of his stats just to keep up. It's cheaper to buy initiative and reflex items than armor in the long run.
Three feats to be above any other Str char in combat.
Four feat to have a "tiny situational benefit" in every field a fighting character build should work on, we're talking about: AC, init, ref saves, dex skills (Acrobatics anyone?), touch AC, melee and ranged attack rolls, melee damage rolls, less MAD... and let's not talk about dual-wielding.
I'm happy for you that your group can use a feat like that without min-maxing and making it fun to play, but if it is made official, it would become THE feat any combat oriented character should take, and anyone not taking it wouldn't be worth it... It's good if your group puts RP above character min-maxing, but not all groups are like that and it would become a balance problem pretty soon...
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n addition, the guy who got Agile into the game also found that a feat version of that ability was too good. Take that as you will.
It's not that the feat is overpowered so much as it happens to be a perfect fit for a certain class that is unable to take advantage of 2-handed fighting, 2-weapon fighting or sword & shield fighting.
Can you do this with a ranger, barbarian or any other class that doesn't have armor training?
You're picking the best case scenario, which is a fighter with access to rare armor matching his size and preference. If we do it like that, every combination might broken superior. I'm talking generally, something any class can pick off the best if they wanted to for character reasons.
In this case it's a dex alchemists vs str alchemist, what if someone wants a dex cleric without easy max dexter increase from armor training, suddenly the field Is levelled.
If we're talking purely fighter, then yes, a cheesed and minmaxed dex will be better. Do I ban intensified because of 10d6 shocking grasps all day long?
Yeah, you can do it with the other classes. That's why I mentioned Mithral and Celestial armor.
Mithral Celestial mail allows full Dex up to dex 30. That's right, no armor training class features needed. Mithral Celestial plate allows up to a 24 Dex...but the low dex melee is highly unlikely to ever get his dex that high.
It's not rare armor, you can buy it and commission it, and you'd be stupid not to...it gives the absolute highest dex limits in the game. Sure, a fighter with armor training may not need it, especially if his dex is lousy. But everyone else, and a Dexterity specialist, will certainly do so.
It's also lighter armor, and the mail allows full movement bonuses that the plate, mithral or otherwise, doesn't give.
==Aelryinth
"You'd be stupid not to" comission a 34,000gp fullplate on an agile themed character. I think we're done here, I'm talking character concepts, while you're talking cheesing optimization to the min-max potential. I can hands down say I will never have a dex ranger in mithral celestial full plate in my group, because that concept is borderline dumb.
We have two dex users, ones a gunslinger, out of the 62k wbl gold they had, they just bought mithral breastplate, the other a mithral shirt.
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Gunslingers, at 5th level, deal Dex to damage. They hit touch AC, and they do it from range. Pistols deal 1d8 piercing/bludgeoning, even. They've a feat that'll allow them to fire and reload in melee without provoking AoOs. Pretty sure a melee character wanting a slice of that ain't being all too greedy.