Best use of Dimension Door for Melee


Advice


I was wondering what was the best way to get quick and useful access to Dimension Door, use of the Dimensional Agility Tree, and have good melee capability.

I noticed that this feat tree makes for good TWF use so that is a thought as well.

So race/class/and build suggestions are welcomed, I just want to see what people think on the subject.


Synth summoner is the most effective one I've played around with. Since they don't need terribly many feats to be effective (just power attack and maybe lunge) you have feats free, with native casting of dim door.


Weables wrote:
Synth summoner is the most effective one I've played around with. Since they don't need terribly many feats to be effective (just power attack and maybe lunge) you have feats free, with native casting of dim door.

Ooh good point, but unfortunately I refuse to play that class on the grounds that it will most-likely BREAK the game.

Maybe Wizard/Fighter or Urban Barbarian into EK?


If you're going EK, I'd suggest fighter, to be able to have the extra feats for the line. The main thing you really want is a combo that isnt feat starved, because the chain is going to eat 3-4 of them.

Do keep in mind that EK will also put off the level you get dim door (and can thus start the chain) for a level or two

edit: also, you dont HAVE to break the game with a synth summoner. just pick your points for a bit more flavor, go biped rather than quad for pounce, that sort of thing.

If you can build it well, you can also tone it down a bit :)


Just toshing out there one idea with EK. Are there any others?


Magus can do it natively as well I believe, having access to dimension door.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

I was wondering what was the best way to get quick and useful access to Dimension Door, use of the Dimensional Agility Tree, and have good melee capability.

I noticed that this feat tree makes for good TWF use so that is a thought as well.

So race/class/and build suggestions are welcomed, I just want to see what people think on the subject.

If you want teleoprting full attacking goodness, I'd reccomend just playing a Magus so that you really don't need the dimensional feats at all. Spell combat lets you use Bladed Dash and Force Hook Charge with a full attack with absolutely no investment. Those are shorter range and generally require a basically unimpeded path to the target, but they are also lower level spells (and bladed dash grants a free attack) so the limitations are reasonable IMO.

You can also use DD out of the box with spell combat if you use it after the attacks. I've seen it argued that since SC is a single full round action, and DD prevents use of "any other actions until your next turn", it might also work prior to the iterative attacks, but that's probably a stretch. Check with your GM, but regardless, picking up the first feat in the chain (dimensional agility) fixes that issue difinitively and lets you use DD with a full attack via SC.

You also get to keep your swift action for arcana use or quickened spells, and get the combo up and runing as soon as you have access to DD (and significantly earlier if you start with BD and FHC). plus, you can use the full range of the spell to your advantage rather than being limited to a factor of your move speed by the dimensional feats. Additionally, you would have easy access to spells that are capable of granting you quite a few extra attacks (the monstrous physique line) that you cam use in conjuncion with these tactics.

The downside of course is that you take the -2 penalty to your attacks from spell combat, but thats easily worth it IMO (especially when you can just use arcane accuracy or accurate strike with that swift action to end up with a net bonus to attack when you do this). You would also not be able to flank with yourself like the last feat lets you do, but that's not usually a parttcularly big deal unless you are planning some kind of oddball build to take advantage of that specific aspect. Then again, nothing is actually stopping a Magus from pursuing the whole chain if you have reason to, its just not real necessary most of the time.

Happy Hunting!


Wizard/witch to level 7 allows access to the tree at level 7 and switching to a martial class at level 8 would let you create a reasonable character.

magnus, summoner & bard are 3/4th BAB classes which can get dimension door at level 10, choose one and switch to a full BAB class.

Wizard/witch & Dragon Disciple combo to, 5 levels of wizard/witch followed by 3 levels of Dragon Disciple grants access to the tree at level 8, AND gives +2 STR, +1 AC (natural), limited use claws and bite, energy resitance & dragon breath - one more level to start than a straight wizard but a stronger character. Leveling up Dragon Disciple improves STR, CON, AC and can even give wings. Sorcerers could do the same, (a cross-blood abysmal(orc)/dragon sorcerer if allowed to become a dragon disciple and apply to dragon disciple bloodline advancement to the cross-bloodline is even better because of the level 9 bloodline strength bonus), but would have to wait until character level 9 to start on the dimensional agility tree. Take the next character level after starting the tree as a fighter and a wizard/witch5-Dragon Disciple3-fighter1 can have dimensional dervish with a BAB of only 5 but it goes up by taking another level in any of the 3 classes, and much opportunity to advance melee capability.

As the amount of verbiage hints, I think dragon disciple is the best way to combine the dimensional agility tree with melee capability. Since you have to go with a 3/4th BAB class (or 1/2 BAB) to get the dimensional agility tree you might as well go with one that has many bonuses to martial ability.


In order to play a dervisher as soon as possible, you'll need dim door asap. By RAW, only a few options get it early. Witch, Wizard, Summoner, and Cleric with Travel domain all get dim door at 7 which gets you dervish by 11 and savant by 13. Of these, only summoner and cleric are 3/4 BAB. I also don't particularly care for summoner.

You have to keep in mind that a dervisher generally isn't going to realize his martial potential until a little later that most. Level 11 is about when they start to get decent. You could take more martial levels earlier (or use a prestige class like EK) but it will delay your dervish progression.

Here's my build: Dervisher

You can swap the stealth feats (skill focus, hellcat, eld heritx2) and the craft wondrous for whatever suits you. Play as a cleric for the first half, use a crossbow and do cleric-y things. At level 10 you can start to do some damage but by level 13 you're really murdering stuff. Goblin isn't necessary either, just anything that gives dex is good.

This build is great for a lot of reasons. You basically always get full attack. You're a crit machine with a 75% chance or greater of hitting everything cr appropriate from 13 on. You always act in surprise round and you always get a move and a standard. Your initiative, ac, and saves are all high. You do relatively high damage but if your GM lets you use teamwork feats (which I personally think should be acceptable but see here: FAQ request) you can probably outdamage just about anyone (by way of outflank and/or seize the moment). That 960 DPR number wasn't pulled out of nowhere.


I forgot to mention that one should not overlook the possibility of going rogue/ninja after getting the tree. While only 3/4 BAB classes, being able to flank with yourself could really increase your combat potential, never having played a rogue/ninja I cannot say if this is viable in a game, but it sounds like it would work.


Oh, I forgot. You can do all that murderin' right from the surprise round. No buffing needed. And you can still cast all your spells up to level 3 (or 4, depending on how you portion pearls vs slots). And you can still channel energy to heal or use variant channeling. Lots of options that don't affect the murderin'.


Any class can easily access to the Horizon Walker PrC, which grants Dimension Door as a SLA.
So "random melee class" 6 / HW 3 lets you start picking the Dimensional Aligity feats by level 9. Not as fast as a straight wizard build, but much better fighting abilities.

The acces to the PrC is even easier for half-orcs with the shaman's apprentice alternate racial trait (ARG).


Djelai wrote:

Any class can easily access to the Horizon Walker PrC, which grants Dimension Door as a SLA.

So "random melee class" 6 / HW 3 lets you start picking the Dimensional Aligity feats by level 9. Not as fast as a straight wizard build, but much better fighting abilities.

The acces to the PrC is even easier for half-orcs with the shaman's apprentice alternate racial trait (ARG).

Two issues with that.

First, RAW, Horizon Walker Dim Door SLA doesn't work for the dervish feats. Now, you can argue that it should/does, but there's another thread for that somewhere. In my view, it should, as should the shadowdancer's shadowjump ability and a few others but RAW, as I understand it, it doesn't.

Second, even if we accept that it does work as a prereq, it still delays the dim dervish feats by 2 levels.


Sensten wrote:
First, RAW, Horizon Walker Dim Door SLA doesn't work for the dervish feats.

I don't see why it doesn't work. SLA are cast and work as apells :

PRD wrote:

Magic, Special abilities

A spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell.

The HW ability lets you cast Dimension Door as a SLA, not "something that works like Dim. Door under specific circumstances", such as the ability of the shadowdancer.

Quote:
Second, even if we accept that it does work as a prereq, it still delays the dim dervish feats by 2 levels.

Agreed, but it's faster than doing a straight magus or bard build, it's workable for any melee class with minimum investment and grants a full BAB.

After 3 levels in the PrC, you can continue this path or go back to your base class. This flexibility offers a great variety of builds.

Nothing to really complain about IMHO.


This might be a bit of a stretch, but by the RAW its legal in my eyes: build your class however you want (even going full fighter or barbarian for full bab) and simply take fetch long as your race. At lvl 9 they get shadow walk as a SLA which can be replaced with DD at the same lvl with the shadow walker racial feat. By this point you can start taking the dervish line at lvl 10 and just take the shadow ghost racial feat as many times as you like to increase the number of times per day you can do it.


Djelai wrote:
SLA are cast and work as apells

You may be right. After a bit of searching, I am as uncertain as I was before I started. I'll admit my ignorance and revoke my objection :)

That said, 3x day isn't a lot. Fetchlings also get a very limited number of uses and also don't get it til 9. It's still an option though.

Another interesting option was the Sorc/DD build, focusing on form of the dragon. Like most of the other builds besides witch/wizard/cleric/summoner, it gets the dim dervish feats late but being a dragon when you do it would be pretty scary. Plus, you'd still get lvl 9 arcane spells.

It just seems like you're already way behind getting the feats. With a lot of these builds the game is almost over before you get to start doing what the build is ostensibly supposed to be about doing.


Sensten wrote:
Djelai wrote:
SLA are cast and work as apells

You may be right. After a bit of searching, I am as uncertain as I was before I started. I'll admit my ignorance and revoke my objection :)

That said, 3x day isn't a lot. Fetchlings also get a very limited number of uses and also don't get it til 9. It's still an option though.

Another interesting option was the Sorc/DD build, focusing on form of the dragon. Like most of the other builds besides witch/wizard/cleric/summoner, it gets the dim dervish feats late but being a dragon when you do it would be pretty scary. Plus, you'd still get lvl 9 arcane spells.

It just seems like you're already way behind getting the feats. With a lot of these builds the game is almost over before you get to start doing what the build is ostensibly supposed to be about doing.

I Agree with you completely. At least with the fetchling build you have the option to increase uses per day without waiting babs in caster classes though.

As far as this build not being viable until late in the game, I think that was the point. If you could use dervish with the teleport spell or similar SLA then you would have a low level game breaking mechanic with little to no drawback besides waisting feats. And seeing as how the build is specific to these feats, its not a waist. Honestly the best build for this feat tree is a full blown monk. Granted you can't take the feats until lvl 11, but once you have dervish you become unstoppable with limitless uses and amazing damage...


Shimesen wrote:
Honestly the best build for this feat tree is a full blown monk. Granted you can't take the feats until lvl 11, but once you have dervish you become unstoppable with limitless uses and amazing damage...

Limitless uses, yes

Best build? not necessarily

If you use the build I posted with the outflank feat added at 15 your damage looks like this:

15 - 263 DPR
16 - 314 DPR
17 - 350 DPR
18 - 374 DPR
19 - 456 DPR
20 - 624 DPR

I can't find anywhere that benchmarks good DPR by level but that pretty much destroys any CR appropriate encounter. If you add the seize the moment feat it gets even more ridiculous. You can do it as many times per day as you have pearls and still have loads of spells, channeling, etc.


Shimesen wrote:
Granted you can't take the feats until lvl 11, but once you have dervish you become unstoppable with limitless uses and amazing damage...

level 12 gives abundant step, which actually means level 13 to pick up dimensional agility, level 15 for dimensional assault and at level 17 a monk can get dimensional dervish to combine abundant step with flurry and do amazing damage if the wizard left anyone alive.

I was counting on using fighter to gain the feats faster, but upon examination they are not combat feats so that won't work, and since they dimensional agility is not part of any class's bonus feats, they can only be bought with the feats obtained every odd level. A character which can get dimensional agility at level 7 can get dervish at level 11, in time to be of use while a character who gets dimensional agility at level 8 or 9 can get dimensional dervish at level 13 which is still before the system has completely broken, but a character who has to wait until level 11 (still before the monk) will not be able to get dimensional dervish until level 15 which is the point where the system falls apart. This restricts the feat line's greatest usefulness to summoners, travel domain clerics and wizard/witch multi-classes (have to multi-class because dimensional dervish requires BAB +6, which is level 12 for straight wizards and witches). A wizard/witch7-fullBAB4 will have a BAB of 7 at level 11 and very limited uses of Dimension Door while a straight cleric/summoner will have a BAB of 8 at level 11, a cleric/summoner7-fullBAB4 whould have a BAB of 9 however a level 11 synthesist summoner will have a BAB of 9 and potentially 5 attacks which use full BAB as well as hefty effective physical attributes at no cost in mental attributes and would seem to have the most melee effectiveness of the options at level 11, and it would keep up with effectiveness for any reasonable level.

That seems to lead to the conclusion that the best way to make a melee character utilizing the dimensional agility line is the synthesist summoner - which only makes sense because the synthesist summoner is so weak at everything else. /sarc


Sensten wrote:
I'll [...] revoke my objection :)

Thank you. :)

Quote:
That said, 3x day isn't a lot.

Actually, that's [3+Wis.mod.] per day. As a meleer, I assume you don't dump Wisdom (unless you're a paladin) and by lvl.9, you'd probably have access to a +2 mental-stat-boost item. So it's more like 5~6 times per day.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't one of the best uses of dimension door be to bring your melee ally along with you, teleport yourself two squares away from an enemy with your ally in front of you, and if the two of you properly delayed your turns your ally is next and can full attack your enemy. This works as early as level 7. And if you're a standard summoner you even get an ally with awesome full attacks as a class feature to use for this.


Djelai wrote:
Sensten wrote:
I'll [...] revoke my objection :)

Thank you. :)

Quote:
That said, 3x day isn't a lot.

Actually, that's [3+Wis.mod.] per day. As a meleer, I assume you don't dump Wisdom (unless you're a paladin) and by lvl.9, you'd probably have access to a +2 mental-stat-boost item. So it's more like 5~6 times per day.

for my next trick, i'll put BOTH my feet in my mouth at the same time


Someone who knows summoners better than I, suggested that the dimensional agility based synthesist was even better. Using a quadruped edion with the pounce evolution, the synthesist can make a full attack as part of using Dimension Door at level 9 - the Dimensional Assault ability allows use of Dimension Door in a charge, and pounce allows the edion (character) to make a full attack after a charge. Not certain if this would be "charge + full attack" or "charge as part of full attack", but this would be available at level 9.

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