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I don’t think anyone can deny the sales from the products of third-party publishers are an important revenue stream for Paizo. In fact, I’ve hear Lisa Stevens (CEO) say there have been times where the web store kept the company afloat.
Then why, oh why does this forum dedicated to third-party publishers, have such terrible support for Images, Video or Rich formatting?
If this is where Pazio’s fans are going to get there news and announcements from third-party publishers, why can’t we add a simple picture of the product we are announcing?
Just to be clear, I am not calling for the entire forums to support images and video. The cost for storage and bandwidth would be a tremendous burden. What I am saying is, how about allowing registered third-party publishers to add a single image to our announcements.
For Example (same announcement):
BoardgameGeek: http://rpggeek.com/thread/944880/conflict-pvp-pvp-for-pathfinder-rpg
vs.
Paizo: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pkb3?Advanced-Player-vs-Player-Mechanics-and
Outside of the fact you shouldn’t bite the hand that feeds you, am I wrong?
M.
There are definitely 3PPs who provide free previews and pictures - Kobold Press Midgard Campaign Setting had a free downloadable preview, and Jorneys to the West provided pictures on its Product page. Perhaps not quite what you are looking for, but still
You may want more than the forums currently support, or perhaps you haven't explored what is available/possible fully. I'm sure Liz Courts could hekp you further in this regard, or some of the website techs.
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He wants the ability to post a picture DIRECTLY on the thread he created for his 3pp product his company produces. Not a link to more info with pictures...like what you see in the boardgeek with videos and pictures embedded in the actual message...which isn't exactly an unreasonable request I think...but I have no idea what they running for servers at paizo...so it could totally be an unreasonable request :P .
There are definitely 3PPs who provide free previews and pictures - Kobold Press Midgard Campaign Setting had a free downloadable preview, and Jorneys to the West provided pictures on its Product page. Perhaps not quite what you are looking for, but still
You may want more than the forums currently support, or perhaps you haven't explored what is available/possible fully. I'm sure Liz Courts could hekp you further in this regard, or some of the website techs.
Hi OceanShieldwolf, - I don't think I convey the request well enough. My own site has plenty of sample pages, (1) video (although, I need more video with the actual product.)
What I am saying is: Why can't product images be on this forums?
It really tough differential yourself as a publisher from the other with just text. Mostly because of the volume of announcements.
I think a picture of the product once someone clicks the thread would be great for the paizo fans.
He wants the ability to post a picture DIRECTLY on the thread he created for his 3pp product his company produces. Not a link to more info with pictures...like what you see in the boardgeek with videos and pictures embedded in the actual message...which isn't exactly an unreasonable request I think...but I have no idea what they running for servers at paizo...so it could totally be an unreasonable request :P .
Sorry Cold Napalm but, I am really not buying that technology is the issue. I think it a matter of putting it on Paizo's leadership team radar and someone at the top greenlighting the effort and budget.
which is why a few folks should let Paizo know you think it would be cool and bump this thread a few times.
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There are definitely 3PPs who provide free previews and pictures - Kobold Press Midgard Campaign Setting had a free downloadable preview, and Jorneys to the West provided pictures on its Product page. Perhaps not quite what you are looking for, but still
You may want more than the forums currently support, or perhaps you haven't explored what is available/possible fully. I'm sure Liz Courts could hekp you further in this regard, or some of the website techs.
Hi OceanShieldwolf, - I don't think I convey the request well enough. My own site has plenty of sample pages, (1) video (although, I need more video with the actual product.)
What I am saying is: Why can't product images be on this forums?
It really tough differential yourself as a publisher from the other with just text. Mostly because of the volume of announcements.
I think a picture of the product once someone clicks the thread would be great for the paizo fans.
Maybe an email to the CEO or something would help? Unless you feel by unveiling this conspiracy will force them to act because of all the awesome posts you are about to get.
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I suspect it's the same reasons it's not anywhere else on the Paizo forums: the fact that people don't want to load a trillion images every time they click a link, the fact that images can easily be abused (e.g., pornography or otherwise inappropriate content), and the fact that it might be problematic from a legal point of view (intellectual property and so forth).
I don't get why there's a problem with just linking an image or video or whatever.
Maybe an email to the CEO or something would help? Unless you feel by unveiling this conspiracy will force them to act because of all the awesome posts you are about to get.
Hi Nimon, I agree with you, except that pazio would not be the leader in RPGs if they didn't build products off customer feedback. Which they received through these forums, yes?
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Hi Nimon, I agree with you, except that pazio would not be the leader in RPGs if they didn't build products off customer feedback. Which they received through these forums, yes?
Maybe an email to the CEO or something would help? Unless you feel by unveiling this conspiracy will force them to act because of all the awesome posts you are about to get.
And emails yes? This isn't exactly feed back this is one company having issues with another company, such dealings are usually done via those channels. The way you presented this its as if you have unearthed some vile treachery and are calling for the community to correct it. I think you going to be sadly disappointed.
I suspect it's the same reasons it's not anywhere else on the Paizo forums: the fact that people don't want to load a trillion images every time they click a link, the fact that images can easily be abused (e.g., pornography or otherwise inappropriate content), and the fact that it might be problematic from a legal point of view (intellectual property and so forth).
I don't get why there's a problem with just linking an image or video or whatever.
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Yep Alice - I agree with you too. Which is why I mentioned this:
...how about allowing registered third-party publishers to add a single image to our announcements.
ie, Only registered third-party publishers and only a single image. registered third-party publishers won't abuse it, that I know for sure.
And emails yes? This isn't exactly feed back this is one company having issues with another company, such dealings are usually done via those channels. The way you presented this its as if you have unearthed some vile treachery and are calling for the community to correct it. I think you going to be sadly disappointed.Hi Nimon, I agree with you, except that pazio would not be the leader in RPGs if they didn't build products off customer feedback. Which they received through these forums, yes?
Maybe an email to the CEO or something would help? Unless you feel by unveiling this conspiracy will force them to act because of all the awesome posts you are about to get.
I'll send an email. no problem - Liz Courts very responsive.
But Nimon, consider the cost of project. It's everything except cheap, right?. If fact, based on "Cold Napalm" thoughts—Its complex and involved.
Typically, a project like this gets the greenlight after there is evidence of necessity. Which maybe, just maybe, this thread can produce. A single email from scrubs like us at Conflict Games "ain't gonna cut it". (Although I will try)
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I agree that you should advertise, and your book's art looks pretty good for 3rd party material so I can see why you would want to display it. I am merely pointing out that starting a thread CALLING OUT PAZIO might not be the best strategy.
As far as evidence of necessity, your product is pretty specific, and truly as a GM it is something I usually try to avoid with a passion. The last thing I want in an evening is all my players to go at it and leave angry, but I can see where it could be useful in certain campaigns ect.
I do have to agree with Conflict. Paizo is working on a browser-based VTT system. Surely, they have the tech to to allow pictures on their forums. I'd be happy with a pic ln am external site and we could post a link to it and it showed here.
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Outside of the fact you shouldn’t bite the hand that feeds you, am I wrong?
I think you're right. And I kind of think that's what you're doing by starting a thread like this, especially on a Friday night when the people you are theoretically talking to have gone home for the weekend.
Pictures are available in the Product Discussion forum. It's easy enough to create a link on this forum, either to there or to an external site.
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Then why, oh why does this forum dedicated to third-party publishers, have such terrible support for Images, Video or Rich formatting?
Why? Because the forum system doesn't support in-line images and video, or rich-formatted text. The forum isn't for advertising products, particularly. That's what the store is for.
One then gets to ask "why is that the case?" I've got to think it's deliberate. I'd think the simple answer is: to keep the forums clean, reliable, fast, and easily moderated.
We don't have to dink around with annoying (ie. large / animated / out-of-genre) signature graphics here. We don't have to dink around with annoying meme pictures in place of replies. We don't have to dink around with people embedding their latest crappy YouTube video in the middle of a useful thread. We don't have to deal with exploits due to malformed text breaking the rich-text parser.
We don't - in short - have to be stuck with the same annoying crap forums that everyone else gets. vBulletin was cool back when fewer obnoxious people had Internet access. Paizo built this system from the ground up to do exactly what we want and what we need.
In my not-even-remotely-humble opinion it should stay this way. Keep your pictures in your product announcement. Why I'd need a video to sell me an RPG product I don't comprehend. Just because the web is full of spastic short-attention-span-theater rich media doesn't mean this forum should be.
If your product is the typical RPG product, it consists of text and some supporting pictures. So show us you can DO text (and a couple supporting pictures) in your product announcement page. On the store.
If this is where Pazio’s fans are going to get there news and announcements from third-party publishers, why can’t we add a simple picture of the product we are announcing?
Mmmm. Maybe this is why you want rich media? <Grin> Just poking gentle fun.
This is just my 2 cp worth of opinion.
I agree with what has been said about not having videos and pictures posted here in the forums about upcoming products. My thinking is if you are that excited about your product post a enthusiastic description in the compatible products thread with a link to your product listing in the store. That way people see your mention of your product and if your description generates their interest they will go to your product description to get more information, and if they are not interested they don't have to get slammed with a video or pictures that would not interest them anyway.
As I said at the first, this is just my opinion and I am not associated with Paizo or any other publisher in any way.
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Just to be clear, I am not calling for the entire forums to support images and video. The cost for storage and bandwidth would be a tremendous burden. What I am saying is, how about allowing registered third-party publishers to add a single image to our announcements.
How exactly would you limit it to publishers? Image embedding is an easy way to get around profanity filters. If I could put this image directly in the thread, it would be there until a moderator saw it and removed it.
Requiring moderator approval for such posts would slow down operation on both sides as Paizo does not have a dedicated mod team. Everyone has other duties and the more time they take moderating the boards the less time they have for their other jobs.
Why? Because the forum system doesn't support in-line images and video, or rich-formatted text. The forum isn't for advertising products, particularly. That's what the store is for.
One then gets to ask "why is that the case?" I've got to think it's deliberate. I'd think the simple answer is: to keep the forums clean, reliable, fast, and easily moderated.
We don't have to dink around with annoying (ie. large / animated / out-of-genre) signature graphics here. We don't have to dink around with annoying meme pictures in place of replies. We don't have to dink around with people embedding their latest crappy YouTube video in the middle of a useful thread. We don't have to deal with exploits due to malformed text breaking the rich-text parser.
We don't - in short - have to be stuck with the same annoying crap forums that everyone else gets. vBulletin was cool back when fewer obnoxious people had Internet access. Paizo built this system from the ground up to do exactly what we want and what we need.
Amgish and Silverhaire2008,
I apologize but I need to paste in what I said before:I agree with you too. Which is why I mentioned this:
...how about allowing registered third-party publishers to add a single image to our announcements.
ie, Only registered third-party publishers and only a single image. registered third-party publishers won't abuse it, that I know for sure.
I share your concerns, no one is requesting Vbulletin. (by the gods-no)
The scope of the request remains:
• registered third-party publishers only
• one image
Just to be clear, I am not calling for the entire forums to support images and video. The cost for storage and bandwidth would be a tremendous burden. What I am saying is, how about allowing registered third-party publishers to add a single image to our announcements.How exactly would you limit it to publishers? Image embedding is an easy way to get around profanity filters. If I could put this image directly in the thread, it would be there until a moderator saw it and removed it.
Requiring moderator approval for such posts would slow down operation on both sides as Paizo does not have a dedicated mod team. Everyone has other duties and the more time they take moderating the boards the less time they have for their other jobs.
Too Funny TriomegaZero - but third party publishers won't do that.
in fact, third party publisher already have special rights to store and forums. We manage inventory, sales, etc, right through paizo.com. Again, the technology isn't the issue.
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which would still require the creation of code (if it does not already exist) to:
- Allow the use of embedded image/video/etc code
- Restrict the use of these elements to a specific list of users
- Restrict the number of times these elements can be used
Additionally, having worked with clients who utilize affiliates, when it comes to sales, one cannot assume that everyone you deal with is going to abide by the rules. When I see statements like this:
registered third-party publishers won't abuse it, that I know for sure.
, it does give me pause. Someone, somewhere will abuse it, whether intentional or not.
With the scope you have outlined, one clear abuse would be to spam a thread with images. Sure I am limited to one image, but is it one image per thread or per post? If it is per post, then there would be nothing to stop one from posting countless images in a thread. If it is per thread, would it apply to ANY thread? Only on the threads created by the poster? Only the first post int he thread created by the poster? The more restrictive you make it, the more complex the logic will need to be to implement it.
A second would be to include linked images within a thread for another 3PPs product, potentially leading to confusion re: the actual product. Granted, one can currently do so with regular posts, but the level of potential confusion is mitigated by the fact it is all text based.
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A snappy picture in a forum thread is no more likely to grab my money than an external link to said snappy picture. Clicking is hard, but the increased exercise is worth it in the long run. My pointer finger is quite a fearsome thing because of it.
Meanwhile, Paizo actively promotes 3PP products and the various product pages I've sifted through this morning seem to have pictures of the products on them.
I guess all I'm saying is that 3PP's aren't getting less of my money now for some lack of information or advertising. And I don't think that anyone would get more of my ducats for the addition of embedded images and video on forum threads.
But I'm only an aging minority amongst consumers these days, so I am willing to accept that my habits aren't keeping up with the times.
Hey OP! I m adding a link to my post cause it really really easy just to click it! So I vote we leave this site as is.
Anyway, I don't understand the Donation Bundles on your site? Is the $20 hardcover include in the bundles?
Also, if you actually sell the product through Paizo, you get a nice image of the product on the product page. I'm not sure I'm understanding what more the OP is asking for ...
Marc - Paizo's web store is top-notch, no doubt. No issues there, just asking for an image in this specify forum. (i.e. the "Compatible Products from Other Publishers" forum.)
Hey OP! I m adding a link to my post cause it really really easy just to click it! So I vote we leave this site as is.
Anyway, I don't understand the Donation Bundles on your site? Is the $20 hardcover include in the bundles?
Hey Demonic Warlord - the book is included but I sent you a PM so we don't mess up this thread.
sweet deal thanks - 4 maps + the hero lab files are a nice touch.
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Maybe Anguish was right ;)Marc - Paizo's web store is top-notch, no doubt. No issues there, just asking for an image in this specify forum. (i.e. the "Compatible Products from Other Publishers" forum.)
Who? Evidently I'm Amgish. And Silverhair2008 bought himself a vowel. <Grin>
Amgish and Silverhaire2008,
I apologize but I need to paste in what I said before:
But seriously, I respect the OP's right to his opinion. But Marc Radle has the answer, which I pointed out in my first post. The store lets you do what you ask. This isn't the store. This is the forum where we discuss. Not where we advertise.
Right tool for the job. Paizo has a place where you can do what you want to do. Do it there.
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If this is where Pazio’s fans are going to get there news and announcements from third-party publishers, why can’t we add a simple picture of the product we are announcing?
Just to be clear, I am not calling for the entire forums to support images and video. The cost for storage and bandwidth would be a tremendous burden. What I am saying is, how about allowing registered third-party publishers to add a single image to our announcements.
For Example (same announcement):
BoardgameGeek: http://rpggeek.com/thread/944880/conflict-pvp-pvp-for-pathfinder-rpg
vs.
Paizo: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pkb3?Advanced-Player-vs-Player-Mechanics-and
Yo u call for a "single image" but then link to an example that has *two* images and an embedded YouTube clip. So if you got what you asked for, it would not actually allow for that product announcement to be made in the same way it was over at RPG Geek. Maybe you should just ask for images to be supported rather than propose that they restrict the images to one per top post.
Are there other parts of the Paizo forums where they *do* support images (or embedded YouTube clips)? If they support this elsewhere, they might be able to change the settings on this subforum, or manually add 3rd Party Publishers into a group to give them the ability to add images. But if you are asking for something they don't support in their own forum, maybe that would require money to be spent on reprogramming their system. If that is the case would you be happy to stump up the cash? Would you be happy to rally round the 3rd Party Publishers to get them to chip in? Or are you hoping that Paizo will fund any changes out of their own pocket?
Also, the thread title "I'm Calling Out the Paizo Forum's Staff!" comes across as a bit aggressive. Have you actually been in discussions with the forum staff and had them tell you to get lost or somesuch? If the moderators here have no power to do what you are asking, it seems a bit rude to "call them out" instead of escalating a private query to the next level. And if you have not actually spoken to the forum staff before today, then "calling them out" could be counter-productive. It could make you look like someone acting a bit trollish, rather than make you look like "someone with a great idea that is going to help Paizo sell more 3rd Party Publisher product in their stores". This could potentially help Paizo sell product, but I think you need to think about how you pitch the concept, so that people hear the message (and not just hear random anger).
And with the example you linked to being "Go to www.ConflictPvP.com to buy my stuff" it seems like you would be wanting to use this forum to drive sales *away* from Paizo's store, rather than drive sales *towards* their store. So I'm not actually sure that what you are proposing is going to actually earn them cash in the future. So what is in it for them? What does Paizo get out of doing this? If you can make that a bit clearer, perhaps you can motivate them to make the changes you would like to see.
Also this might not be the best place to make a request. This is a forum for people to discuss 3rd Party Products, not one for people to ask for tech support. Perhaps the Website Feedback forum would be a better place to get a response from someone that can actually change the settings on the website.
Anyhoo. Good luck marketing your stuff.
EDIT: I posted a thread in the Website Feedback forum for you: Publisher wants image support for Compatible Products from Other Publishers forum. Hope that gets someone from the team over here.
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You know, "calling someone out" means that either you're publicly exposing their deceptions, challenging them to prove their lies, or challenging them to a fight. I don't really think any of those apply, except the last, and that wouldn't be a wise move, though aptly suited to your company's name.
Quite simply, you can already do part of what you want in the product forum, this is a discussion forum, as Marc said. I wasn't familiar with your work before, and I have to say that your overly-aggressive thread here, while it brought you to my attention, gives a somewhat negative impression.
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You are making a public stink over a business practices that Paizo currently uses? Not very professional.
There may be any number of reasons why they do not offer what you are asking:
- Bandwidth costs
- Software upgrade costs for the forums/website
- Costs for additional monitoring of content
- They want you to use their eStore
If you had more respect for Paizo, this is something you would have taken up with them offline, WITHOUT public shenanigans.
CEO
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Maybe an email to the CEO or something would help? Unless you feel by unveiling this conspiracy will force them to act because of all the awesome posts you are about to get.
Wouldn't help too much. I put these kinds of decisions firmly in the hands of my tech team. I am happy with any decision they come up with for what types of things folks are allowed to put into their posts.
-Lisa
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Maybe an email to the CEO or something would help? Unless you feel by unveiling this conspiracy will force them to act because of all the awesome posts you are about to get.Wouldn't help too much. I put these kinds of decisions firmly in the hands of my tech team. I am happy with any decision they come up with for what types of things folks are allowed to put into their posts.
-Lisa
Lisa, thanks for the reply. If this can be simply discussed by the Paizo tech team, I would be delighted.
Here's what I mentioned to Adam Daigle who reached out to me:
"On pazio.com, the level of engagement by Paizo fans is tremendous. As is the support Paizo provides 3rd party publishers. What I am calling for is, a single segment of the forums where 3rd party publishers make their announcements, to support a single product image by registered 3rd party publishers. I feel this would strengthen the already strong forum site and the 3rd party publishers would absolutely love it."
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I guess my question is this ... Why is this so important to you and why are you pushing so hard? That's an honest question, by the way. As most people have indicated, they probably don't want to see this happen or are at best neutral to the idea. New product announcements are fine as a simple, nicely formatted text post ( with a link to your site showing all the images you want)
Once your product is officially for sale here on Paizo.com you will get your product image.
I guess what I'm saying is ... the majority have said they'd rather not see the forums junked up with images, Paizo's tech team has apparently indicated they don't plan to do this, and I think most people are just fine with that.
So, again, why the relentless push?
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"What I am calling for is, a single segment of the forums where 3rd party publishers make their announcements, to support a single product image by registered 3rd party publishers."
Not to beat the dead horse, but that single segment of the forums is called... the store. I'm not sure if you're aware, but each product on the store gets a product discussion thread. It's kind of... exactly what you want.
In fact, Paizo has gone to quite some effort to adapt the store to support 3rd-party companies' needs. For instance, Dreamscarred Press had a psionics book that they elected to release as a subscription. But the full PDF for $x and you get the individual parts of it as they're released, then the full PDF once all the parts are out. That functionality just... came to be, as far as I know because Dreamscarred asked. Oh, and people could still buy the individual parts without the full subscription. Paizo == awesome.
So if the store doesn't do something you need it to do, I'd suggest that would be a great topic for discussion. The forum on the other hand is for discussing, not advertising, though the line is sometimes blurry. Where I'm coming from is that I think the line should remain blurry, and not be permitted to become any more rigidly defined, especially in the direction of more direct advertisement. I can shop when I want to shop, and I can discuss when I want to discuss. Blending the two is done in the shopping area.
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Funny thing is your announcement over on RPGGeek has no replies and your Paizo thread has several. Makes me wonder which thread is more effective.
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Just for the record, I would like to see an image with the 3rd party stuff. It not a bad idea if done properly.
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I wouldn't mind seeing 3pp images in the forums. When I come to Paizo, I never stop at the store, and spend most of my time browsing the messageboards.
Not sure what the problem is for everyone else.
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Going to be honest for myself, I look at the third party forum for discussion of third party product and adapting them and advice on them and what not. Not advertising. If a product release thread does catch my attention, it'll do so with words, not pictures, because I won't even be clicking on a thread unless it sounds like something I'm interested in.
I support no pictures.
Dear OP:
Has this sort of approach treated you well in the past? Seriously. I'm curious.
Love your username,
Patrick
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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why can’t we add a simple picture of the product we are announcing?
You mean like this?
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@ConflictRoleplaying:
The irony is that the image you DO HAVE on your product page (linked in the previous post) has Pathfinder spelled "Pathinfinder"?!?!
Aside from your slightly energetic thread title, I think you are well within your rights to ask for the moon. Just don't be surprised if I and other people have posted that there already seem to be picture-adding available...
Your product does look interesting and professional. :)
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Personally, I’d avoid forums where the image & video embedding was allowed if this was turned on. Your plan would only diminish my viewing the 3PP forum or whatever forums this would be made active.
I do much of my message board browsing while at work and I avoid any areas of the website where I may be viewing something which would call more of my coworkers’ attention to my monitor.
If I’m browsing through the store area I know what I’m in for and therefore only go to that area when I’m not worried about the graphics being seen or when I’m at home.
Just another POV to consider.
-TimD
Personally, I’d avoid forums where the image & video embedding was allowed if this was turned on. Your plan would only diminish my viewing the 3PP forum or whatever forums this would be made active.
I do much of my message board browsing while at work and I avoid any areas of the website where I may be viewing something which would call more of my coworkers’ attention to my monitor.
If I’m browsing through the store area I know what I’m in for and therefore only go to that area when I’m not worried about the graphics being seen or when I’m at home.Just another POV to consider.
-TimD
by the gods, Read the post! the OP said one image, (no video) by the Publishers only, during their product announcements !
it means you don't have to click to see what the cover looks like, that's all.