Building in a Pathfinder MOBA


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Here is my idea for including a MOBA in PFO.

First, pick a NPC city to have a large gladiatorial arena where crowds gather to watch the clashes. The crowd favorite is two towers. Two teams of five fight in a large arena to destroy each others tower on opposite sides of the arena. The tower has an NPC archer in it raining down arrows. Also, a steady stream of NPC mobs head toward the other tower throughout the game. Standard MOBA stuff.

How to integrate it into the MMO...

Since PFO is free to play this is actually easy (except for the massive amount of computer programming)

From the log-in screen you can log directly into the MOBA or in the real world your character can travel to the MOBA arena.

When you enter the arena you Que up for a match, either unranked or ranked.

When your team selection begins, you choose a kit. The kit is the equipment you are wearing and the skills you have just for this match. Imagine playing league of legends where you start at level 18, with all your gear and everyone is fighting in a single lane.... that would be the intensity and amazing fun of this MOBA. I would expect matches to last 5-10 minutes since everyone starts at fully leveled and fully geared... Maybe you include some "jungle mobs" at the outside edge of the arena with buffs....

For your free account, you choose one kit as yours during the tutorial. As you win matches you earn gold. You spend gold on new kits to add to your choices.

This is where you get integrated....

MMMO players can spend the in game currency to buy kits. OR THEY CAN CRAFT THEM for their own use or to sell to MOBA players.

For example, GW makes a Conan type kit. A player crafting with sufficient skills and resources makes the "skills part of the kit" then crafts or buys each of the equipment items, bundle them all together ans sells it as a kit on the open market.

Besides a few basic kits, it would be cool if the other kits were only available as player-crafted kits.

GW can make money of the microtransactions of buying cooler looking "skins" that would go with each kit they design.

So if you just want to play PFO MOBA you can, but you are making gold playing that is being spent on player crafted kits (and you might really like the game enough to try the mmo part...

If you are a crafting, another crafting tree to level and an audience for your wares.

If you are a guild or a solo player, something else to compete at.

Big keys, GW designs the kits- the ability combos and the equipment so that every kit is somewhat "balanced" as bst as they can.

You could also have a free-for-all ladder where you play your actual character in the MOBA.

The e-sport eligible part would be that every player in the e-sport ranked match is choosing from the same kits of skills and gear so the only advantage you have is your individual skill and team skill.

Also, the gladiator arena should have a different view angle so you can see more of the battlefield as you fight.

We can stream these matches, have rankings, and maybe try to be an e-sport.

AGAIN THIS IS JUST ONE PART OF AN AMAZING PFO WORLD THAT YOU DONT EVER HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT...

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Quote:
AGAIN THIS IS JUST ONE PART OF AN AMAZING PFO WORLD THAT YOU DONT EVER HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT...

This suggestion is absolutely against the stated design goals of the game. It is not meaningful combat, and it would require a huge amount of resources to implement something that would turn PFO into a completely different game experience. If you want a MOBA, go play LOL.


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Ryan mentioned why they weren't going to add any arena type areas to PFO, but I can't recall exactly what he said. It put the kibosh on another topic we were discussing at the time, which I believe was having arena tournaments.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

What's a MOBA?

Goblin Squad Member

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Massively Online Boredom Application?
Mechanically Optimized Barbarian Arena?
Mobile Optical Ballistic Artillery?
Metropolitan Opera & Ballet Association?
Multiplayer Online Bellicose Auxiliary?

Goblin Squad Member

or any other assorted M. O. B. A. names lol

Goblin Squad Member

Monument of Blessed Angels?
Multiple Option Barometric Assessments?
Mingling Over Bombay Actresses?
Memories of Balding Atlanteans?
Monomaniacal Optimist's Board of Adjudication? (a.k.a. fanbois)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Man, Our Bacronyms Are bad.


Something that you would see in Wow.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Fine. You have your fun and I'll just go and wear my fingers to the bone googling 'MOBA definition' and scrolling all the way past past the Museum Of Bad Art to the second result. I hope you're all happy.


Don't feel bad, I had to look it up the first time I saw it here too ;)

"History|Gameplay|See also|References
Multiplayer online battle arena ( MOBA), also known as action real-time strategy (ARTS), is a sub-genre of the real-time strategy (RTS) genre, in which often two teams ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_Online_Battle_Arena - Cached"

Goblin Squad Member

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Mothers of Bonafied A-Holes
Mountains of Bountiful Acronyms

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah in general, mixing in a completely different genre of game, as a mini game equivelant, usually does not have beneficial results.

1. it's basically coding a new game from scratch.
2. Your dev team is most likely not experts on that genre... so there's that.

Essentially it's all the work of coding 2 games, requires the amount of developers as 2 games... it would be far more eficiant to... cut a deal with a development house that wants to make a MOBA and do cross marketing and share some lore. Not too much different than say the relationship of paizo and goblinworks. Sure Paizo is absolutely lending some of their talented creators to assist in PFO's development, but the key detail is, every aspect of the game is being done by experts who know that field. It's two different companies sharing expertise in their major, rather than 1 company attempting to bend to compete in a market it has no experience in.

Goblin Squad Member

Also, wouldn't a MOBA give incentive for the ganker-a@#$%^&s to hang around? I look forward to seeing just how many different ways Ryan can come up with to drive them away through boredom or torture...

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The absolute worst aspect of incorporating a MOBA would be the resulting demand that things become balanced (50% win chance) for all 1v1 and most 5v5 matchups. Whichever build makes it to the top of the ladder one week will have the faction that cares about such stuff calling for it to be nerfed; when it isn't, all of the players who care about such stuff will gravitate towards the current winner's style, reinforcing the idea that it is objectively superior.

Goblin Squad Member

No additional programming variant:

Open field or open, chaotic town (or just outside town if there's no walking in player towns). Organizers can take entries, set up matches, run leaderboards, and stream the fights to their heart's content. Set up 1v1 through 8v8 matches, uneven sides, gear-limited (be fun to see a 3v6, 3 with unlimited gear, 6 limited to tier 1), etc. Merchant services could be provided by some enterprising individuals, odds could be figured and wagers taken... None of this needs any developer involvement and could be a hell of alot of fun.

To top it off, anyone who wants to cause a ruckus is likely to get their head stomped in by those waiting to fight and those waiting to watch the fights.

Edit: Or just have a basement, shed, barn, etc in Thornkeep where all this can take place... just be sure to tip the serving wenches.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, this kind of stuff can be run by the players.


+1 what sintaqx wrote, the only real aspect to worry about is alignment consequences but that is easily enough dealt with by having permanent 'arena guilds' that you join before fighting, and which are permanently 'at war' with each other. and of course, anybody who doesn't care about chaotic/evil alignment consequences is fully free to participate with no worries. that is if there isn't a 'consensual combat' flag option that allows anybody to consensually initiate alignment/reputation-neutral combat.

if there really is some compelling reason for GW to not have this be part of the game, i wonder what happens when people do it anyways on their own. having it more official/server-integrated, with 'safe' server legitimated gambling numbers, etc, in some NPC locale like Thornkeep doesn't seem any more problematic... and ultimately, DOESN'T seem like it requires much more programming, hell, it can re-use the contract sub-system's code to determine the winner who gets the pot, etc. i really don't see what their problem would be with something like this though...

that's what baffled me about the OP's post, i was like 'so what? you can do that anyways within the game'.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Yeah, the Red and Blue organizations are already a given. There might even be a Green and Yellow group that operate under different rules.


@WIll Cooper: It stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena.

Goblin Squad Member

@OP: I would categorise it as something to fit in with eg fishing. Maybe a bit more work (!) but a "nice to have" but not "immediately". I wonder if there is a suitable lore explanation for having a type of moba in pathfinder? I'm cagey to suggest player-characters act as the champions (the skills and so forth are all wrong and it does not fit the lore at least as I'm aware). But if there were critters that could be collected and used in taverns on a small scale ie the equivalent of tavern skittles for eg? But little critters bashing on each other and bets put on them? I know that's not so moba, but maybe players could with the use of a hedge-wizard "control" their critter? That could be a nice way to fit it in in some form that is social, fits the tavern, adds a bit of entertainment/gambling and does not seem to far removed from possibility for the devs to work on *eg like fishing*. What do you think?

Goblin Squad Member

Building in a MOBA is as simple as defining an (player-built or npc) arena where people can flag themselves as "arena combatant" so that two arena combatants do not suffer alignment or rep penalties for attacking/killing each other in the defined area.

There may even be rep gained for winning in the arena, as long as this doesn't end up as a rep laundry system. Psychopath player killers in the ring is content.

I see no need to do anything about threading etc: considering what gear to bring to the arena is part of the strategy.

Goblin Squad Member

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Sorry but if you want to play a MOBA while playing PFO I suggest buying a second monitor and run LoL or DoTA on it.

It's not going to happen here, nor should it.

Goblin Squad Member

Zanathos wrote:
@WIll Cooper: It stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena.

It might have been easier to simply include the full intended meaning of the anagram in parentheses the first time it was used as a common courtesy, but it wouldn't have been as fun I suppose.

Oops: it must be morning...


Being wrote:
Zanathos wrote:
@WIll Cooper: It stands for Multiplayer Online Battle Arena.

It might have been easier to simply include the full intended meaning of the anagram in parentheses the first time it was used as a common courtesy, but it wouldn't have been as fun I suppose.

Oops: it must be morning...

/me slides Being a flask of +4 "Expresso of waking the dead" ;)

Goblin Squad Member

<...you see Being racing around in an hyperactive circle jabbering incessantly, with an expression something like pure terror in his caffein-extended eyes, once Val's concoction has been quaffed>

Goblin Squad Member

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MOBA = Multi-Player Online Battle Arena. I had to look it up.

I have no interest in "Arena PvP". If it's in PFO, I hope it's something that doesn't get in the way of the rest of the game.

Goblin Squad Member

The first MOBA to be known under this name started out as a mod to Warcraft III (but was inspired by a mod to Starcraft) and was called Defense of the Ancients (DotA).

MOBAs are RTS games and thus fundamentally different from MMOs (controls, skills, items, stats, everything). MOBAs are NOT arena PvP at all they are much more Starcraft than WoW.

Including a MOBA in an MMO is simply not doable and is a ridiculous suggestion.

Goblin Squad Member

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Arena PVP is a half-step between PVE and open PVP. PVE players tend to min-max their gear to be optimal vs whatever they are hunting, and the programatic nature of mobs means that once you figure out their weakness you are assured victory. Arena PVP gear is min-maxed to be optimal vs the situation. Open PVP tends to be omni-use since you don't know exactly what's going to happen so you prepare as well as you can for everything. The difference in these three setups exemplifies the divisions that form among the players, and you end up with three different games being played, each of which clamoring for limited developer resources (and complaining about the others).

By focusing on only one of these three games, open PVP, GW is limiting the resources required and allowing a shorter timetable to be used. It's niche, but that has been stated from the outset. The good thing about their selection of the open PVP model as the base is it permits the gradual expansion into the other realms. As has been seen in many other games, if you give the players the tools and the sandbox, they will create their own game. If someone decides they really want an arena game, they will hopefully have the tools to make it themselves.

Personally I think a player-run pit-fight in Thornkeep would be awesome, just don't expect to see anything developed specifically for that.

Goblin Squad Member

MicMan wrote:


Including a MOBA in an MMO is simply not doable and is a ridiculous suggestion.

Micman, this is a forum for crowd forging ideas for a game in very early development. I don't find your attitude....constructive.

Go download free-to-play SMITE. Play it. You will realize, this is an MMO without the MMO... You would not know that someone playing SMITE is playing a MOBA if you just walked up and glanced over someone's shoulder.

Goblin Squad Member

MicMan wrote:


MOBAs are RTS games and thus fundamentally different from MMOs (controls, skills, items, stats, everything). MOBAs are NOT arena PvP at all they are much more Starcraft than WoW.

Including a MOBA in an MMO is simply not doable

Another counter-point.

CP or CCP the company that runs EVE, added a console FIRST PERSON SHOOTER to their eve game called Dust something.... the games are seperate but you have a little interaction between the two.

That is what I am suggesting for PFO, instead of a adding a first-person shooter, add the single most popular (and profitable) form of PC video gaming on the planet (MOBA) as part of the Pathfinder online universe.

just like DUST, if you dont want to play the MOBA you don't have to and it in no way affects the rest of PFO like DUST doesn't affect the rest of EVE.

Lots of closed imaginations in this thread for a group that supposedly excels at sitting around and imagining...


Soldack Keldonson wrote:

Micman, this is a forum for crowd forging ideas for a game in very early development. I don't find your attitude....constructive.

Constructive criticism is based around explaining the problem and then telling the creator that the problem needs to be fixed. He explained it. People criticizing ideas do not have to have an especially positive attitude, so I don't really see what more you want from him.

Goblin Squad Member

@Soldack Keldonson, I asked this in another thread, but it might be more appropriate here.

Could you please explain what you mean by "MOBA" for those of us who don't really understand it?


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MOBA is a Massive Online Battle Arena. As far as I can tell all MOBA's follow a similar pattern. Pick a hero, choose a lane to defend or control, watch as your side send minions along lane that you have to defend OR kill the opposing sides minions/hero.

I'm already on the fence on PFO, the inclusion of extensive PVP stuff AND/OR a MOBA style interface would put it in the 'Don't buy' category.

And I smell troll in this thread, so I'll see my way out.

Goblin Squad Member

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As I mentioned in the other thread "Scope Creep"......

There is nothing inherintly wrong with MOBA's, they are pretty popular these days. However they are targeted an entirely different sort of crowd (mostly the "e-sport" folks) with entirely different sorts of gameplay expectations and looking for entirely different types of features then what PFO is targeted at.

(IMO)It's kinda like saying... "Why don't we make our breakfast cereal also attractive as an oil filter for your car"

Nothing wrong if someday GW wanted to build a MOBA, but it should be a seperate product/project.


In-game volleyball mini-game. If you build it, they will come.

Goblin Squad Member

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The halfling is the ball.


GrumpyMel wrote:


Nothing wrong if someday GW wanted to build a MOBA, but it should be a seperate product/project.

I think this is the general feeling by those against the idea. GW has enough on their plate without adding an entirely new mini game that has nothing relating it to PFO except that the OP wants it added.

Maybe it would be a good idea, years down the road. Eve did add Dust 514 to their main game, 10 years after they released Eve it's self.

It's just way too early to even toss ideas like this around. Well maybe not to toss them around, but to have them seriously considered it is.

Goblin Squad Member

@Soldack Keldonson , How much money does it cost to develop and include a MOBwhatever in Pathfinder and where is that money going to come from?

Goblin Squad Member

As cool as DUST 514 is, there are many, many elements of the merging of EVE with DUST that will take at least a couple of years to meld together properly. For example, DUST has Warbarges that orbit planets; they are part of the systemdesigned for the DUST 514 ground battle story. But EVE players can't see then, ca't attack them, as they are not really present on the EVE side of the equation. The game is not developed to mingle assets in that way just yet.

DUST occurs on the surface of planets in the EVE universe. Not just any planets, Temperate planets. Only temperate planets. Yes, there are over 5,000 of them, but there are many other types of planets; gas giants, plasma planets, lava planets, oceanic planets, etc... DUST will not be on those for years, because the game designers will have to add environmental suits, project different players gravities, weapon behaviors, aircraft behaviors, all that.

Another one...in EVE you can interact with a planet as a space pilot (capsuleer) by dropping a Command Center on a planet's surface and extracting raw materials from it, sending those raw mats to a processing center for refinement, and eventually making finished products, later to launch these products into space for resale or use. DUST players cannot attack these resources...they currently do not exist on that planet if a DUST attack force happens to land on the surface. The tools have not yet been coded that allow for that interaction.

Not that all these things will not eventually happen, but it will take a very long time for the EVE and DUST 514 programmers to get around to marrying these two games' different mechanics into one smooth game experience. IT will happen if DUST remains successful. CCP has a good track history of updating EVE, and I expect they will do the same for DUST. But it takes a while.


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In-game goblin-cart-racing game. If you don't think that's a good idea, you just aren't imaginitive.

Goblin Squad Member

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Instead of asking the developers to divert their scant resources into building a MOBA, why not just ask them to provide an arena when they can and then you can set up your gladiator system, assuming you can hold the arena and not lose it to the competition.

Goblin Squad Member

Dwarf tossing is still my favorite.

Anyway, yeah... You can do player run tournaments. There is no reason not to if you want that.

Past that, Arena PVP is boring unless your bored. lol

Goblin Squad Member

Using the EVE/DUST 514 example, it took CCP nine years to get to that point. In those nine years they focused on refining EVE into what it is today.

Im vehemently against including a MOBA in PFO for most of the reasons already stated. But the main point would be: Why would GW want to include a MOBA? This is a niche game. Its not meant to draw in the masses. GW have even stated that theyre going to throttle new players to allow them to scale appropriately. All of which I applaud. If anyone wants a PF skinned MOBA they should look at modding one of the existing games in the market.

Goblin Squad Member

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Acronym soup aside, the suggestion suffers from an issue which was dubbed the "Stamp Collecting Dilemma" by one of the earliest MMO developers. If the devs spend time on a feature that few players care about, we all pay in terms of their opportunity costs by having less fun options in areas we do care about.

Dr Cat's Stamp Collecting Dilemma

"Lots of people might like stamp collecting in your virtual world. But those who do will never play with those who like other features. Should you have stamp collecting in your world?" We know that there are a wide range of features that people find enjoyable in online worlds. We also know that some of these features are in conflict with one another. Given the above, we don't yet know if it is possible to have a successful world that incorporates all the features, or whether the design must choose to exclude some of them in order to keep the players happy.

We'd need access to lots of data we don't have in order to get a proper number, but as a guess I'd say that a feature would need to be utilized by at least 25% of the player population on a regular basis for it to be worth much development time.

Ironically enough, the 'stamp collecting' of UO was a result of too little dev time. Players found that certain world items and even landscape tiles were not locked down properly, and they stole them. That and house plots may have been the beginning of real-money purchase of scare in-game property.

Soldack Keldonson wrote:
AGAIN THIS IS JUST ONE PART OF AN AMAZING PFO WORLD THAT YOU DONT EVER HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT.

Actually, I think the "If you don't like it, you can just skip it." argument qualifies as a full-on fallacy when it comes to game development. What should we call it?

Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:
...If the devs spend time on a feature that few players care about, we all pay in terms of their opportunity costs by having less fun options in areas we do care about...

This is one of the strongest arguments I know of in favor of F2P with a cash store. The basic game is free, but each element above that basis is sold seperately. This provides a system where those who want a feature pay for it, while those who do not don't.

So if a subset of the community wants to craft they buy the crafting module. If another subset wants to build dungeons they pay for that and those who don't don't bear the financial burden. Those who want a cosmetic pet don't burden those who could care less about pets.

The model might extend down to class types. A fighter might be included in the basic game, but a wizard or rogue is a seperate purchase.


I'm not trying to knock you Soldack, but it's obvious that you like the way Wow is set up and the conveniences they included to make the game where it doesn't require your full attention to play.

PFO is just not that sort of game. They don't want to attract the huge number of players, they don't want to have leaderboards you can brag to your guildies about, they don't want to add epic 6 hour raid dungeons you have to do 8 times for a chance at mile high shoulder armor.

You can suggest this sort of content, but I just don't think you will get much support from the community. By and large most of us are dissatisfied with games like Wow and what they bring to the table. I'm not saying you shouldn't suggest whatever you wish.


Being wrote:
This is one of the strongest arguments I know of in favor of F2P with a cash store. The basic game is free, but each element above that basis is sold seperately. This provides a system where those who want a feature pay for it, while those who do not don't.

Developing a quality sub-system incurs costs before they can be recouped. Goblinworks only has a certain amount of development $ available at any given point. Only charging players who choose to utilize optional content for the development costs of said content sounds nice, but isn't a realistic way to approach game development. That doesn't mean it can't be done within certain limits or in certain cases, but you can't just extrapolate it ad infinitum. You can spend a given amount of development dollars on doing a few things very well, or you can spend it on doing more things in a half-assed way... which probably won't attract many paying players for long, because some other company will have been able to implement the fewer concepts that are of actual interest to a given player market in a better, more focused, higher quality manner.

By what I can tell, Goblinworks has their hands full just implementing the basic elements of the central core concept. Once they finish that, there are plenty of refinements and 'secondary priorities' of the central core concept itself, before auxiliary games are added on. Achieving a successful basic inertia in the core game makes it so that pursuing higher tiers of goals of the same basic core game to achieve even more success is the most realistic plan, rather than deciding to spend the results of the initial basic success on pursuing unrelated goals for which the initial success (and player market) is simply less relevant. At a certain point, branching out may well have more upside than doing the same old thing (or variations of), but it's pretty clear that Goblinworks is not at that point now or in the forseeable future.

Is anybody aware of other existing/in-development games which would fulfill what the OP is apparently looking for in a game, or which would require the least amount of changes/new development to reach that point? That seems the productive response here, I don't think anybody is opposed to such a type of game existing, the OP's ideas just don't seem like a coherent, productive direction for PFO's development process, especially at this point in time.

Goblin Squad Member

Gerrsun Greatoak wrote:


And I smell troll in this thread, so I'll see my way out.

Gerrsun, I have created dozens of threads with pages of responses discussing many aspects of PFO and the crowd forging of the game. Please go look up my other threads...you will find pages of game discussion that even have many GW CEO and employee responses.

Forum trolls are chaotic evil, purposefully being disrupting for mean reasons. I am probably at worst a Chaotic Neutral forum poster. I want to explore and discuss as many constructive game ideas as possible. I don't care where the discussion leads, it's healthy for the game to mentally explore ideas.

Goblin Squad Member

@Soldack Keldonson: It's just a little ambitious. For eg SW:TOR cost 350m$ and still could not add free-form spaceship battles ie on-rails instead. I hope that eg shows the O_O response of your suggestion? Not to say that we cannot use our imagination to explore ways or guises it could adapt to the priorities of the current PFO design.

But overall, working WITHIN the stated design as opposed to around it, especially, makes most productive sense. For eg what has been mentioned most closely so far is gladiatorial fights (post-post release) or as above, some form of mini-game that is very reduced version of moba but might take the essence of it; ie scaled back so it's within the realm of possibility to add.

@Quandary: The only option I can think of is Minecraft where players already built their own Minecraft + Moba servers.

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