Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Issues with Magus free touch attacks


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 74 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So a friend of mine brought a up point in the magus rules and I thought I covered it well but he doesn't agree so I come to the people of paizo asking for advice.

He claims that if a level 4 magus casts frostbite The situation is as follows.

1) Cast frost bite
2) move into range
3) make free attack with weapon
4) enemy goes
5) next turn free frostbite attack
6) spell combat melee attack
7) Spell combat shocking grasp
8) free shocking grasp attack

The extra frostbite attack is an issue, is there anything regarding this, it seems wrong.


frostbite attack + spell combat attack = full round action

additional shocking grasp casting is an additional stndard action...


Kashka wrote:

frostbite attack + spell combat attack = full round action

additional shocking grasp casting is an additional stndard action...

That is what I thought, he said that the frostbite attack in the second round was a free attack, like it is when casting the spell. I pointed out that the free attack is part of casting the spell, which isn't happening on the second round.

Osirion

Frostbite grants a single free attack on the round it is cast.

Held charges do not grant free attacks.


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This might help: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nler?A-Guide-to-Touch-Spells-Spellstrike-and-S pell#1


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules Subscriber

Due to Spellstrike, he should be able to deliver the frostbite charge on a normal melee attack as part of the full attack within spell combat. Once he casts shocking grasp, the frostbite dissipates, regardless of his level, since casting a spell wipes out any existing held charge.

But he's not getting a free attack for the frostbite charges except in the round he casts it, wherein the attack is free because it's part of the action of casting the spell. After that, it's a held charge, much as though he had cast any other touch spell the round before and not used the charge.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You only get the free melee touch attack the turn you cast the spell. Any other time it is a standard action to make a touch attack.


I don't wish to complicate things, but I have a follow up to this discussion.

What if the following happens?

1) Cast Frostbite
2) Step into range (or we can pretend he has a whip and started within range).
3) Free weapon attack (ala Spellstrike). This attack misses.

Next round

4) Spell combat full round action!
5) Regular attack hits, discharging Frostbite.
6) Cast Shocking Grasp.
7) Free weapon attack in place of free touch attack.

Is that a correct sequence of events?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
MCPooge wrote:

I don't wish to complicate things, but I have a follow up to this discussion.

What if the following happens?

1) Cast Frostbite
2) Step into range (or we can pretend he has a whip and started within range).
3) Free weapon attack (ala Spellstrike). This attack misses.

Next round

4) Spell combat full round action!
5) Regular attack hits, discharging Frostbite.
6) Cast Shocking Grasp.
7) Free weapon attack in place of free touch attack.

Is that a correct sequence of events?

Yes if you have a held charge, your normal attack can discharge it with spell combat, and then your spell could trigger a second attack.

This is pretty even since you have to have either missed or cast an held the charge on a previous turn AND if you miss in step 5, you lose the held charge when you cast the spell in step 6.


Do people still think they can get an extra melee attacking using spell combat in conjunction with spellstrike?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I have a friend who plays that way. Normal attack, cast spell, free attack. I assume that's not right? I'm not real knowledgeable on the Magus. It seemed excessive to me.


Conundrum wrote:
Do people still think they can get an extra melee attacking using spell combat in conjunction with spellstrike?

Depending on how you mean 'extra' the answer is probably yes.

rando1000 wrote:
I have a friend who plays that way. Normal attack, cast spell, free attack. I assume that's not right?

If you cast a touch spell, you get to make a touch attack as a free action any time during that turn.

Spellstrike lets you deliver a touch spell with your weapon instead of a touch.

Spell Combat lets you make your melee attack(s), and also cast a spell.

They can all be used together.

A level 2 magus can use Spell Combat as a full-round action. He can make a melee attack (with -2 penalty). He can cast a spell. If that spell is a touch spell, then because he cast a touch spell it grants him an attack as a free action. He can choose to make that attack with a touch, or with his melee weapon, in either case at a -2 penalty.

Here's A Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat.

rando1000 wrote:
It seemed excessive to me.

It's going to blow your mind when you find out about two-weapon fighting or flurry of blows.

Andoran

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Conundrum wrote:
Do people still think they can get an extra melee attacking using spell combat in conjunction with spellstrike?

People know that when using spellstrike you can exchange the free touch attack that you get casting a spell with a range of touch with a free weapon attack and for short say that you get a free melee attack.

- * -

Frostbite, like all the spell working like chill touch is a bit strange when speaking of held charges.
They aren't single touch spells whose charge is held but spell with multiple touches. In 1st and 2nd edition it was clear how they worked, they had a duration in touches and they would last until the touched were used up. Then 3rd edition introduced the held charge but never explained if the chill touch line of spell is subject to that rule or if the specific text of the spell supersede it.
That whole line of spell would benefit for a rule clarification.

That said, it will not grant a free attack in the round after the one in which it is cast. On the other hand it can be delivered multiple times in a round if you have multiple iterative attacks.


Diego Rossi wrote:
That whole line of spell would benefit for a rule clarification.

If anyone is interested in an official clarification for this issue, there's a FAQ request post here.

Diego Rossi wrote:
That said, it will not grant a free attack in the round after the one in which it is cast.

Wait, what? Even using the crazy non-held-charge interpretation, James Jacobs said it would still act like a touch spell until you've delivered it once.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Grick wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
That said, it will not grant a free attack in the round after the one in which it is cast.

Wait, what? Even using the crazy non-held-charge interpretation, James Jacobs said it would still act like a touch spell until you've delivered it once.

?

You are saying that, for you, a held charge would grant free attacks until it is discharged? Or there is a miscommunication somewhere between us?

Held charges grant the ability to use a armed touch attack, but that attack is part of your normal attacks, not the free attack you get the round in which you cast the spell.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Or there is a miscommunication somewhere between us?

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you were saying you don't get the free attack on the round in which you cast the spell. I missed the word "after" in there.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Grick, it's the same thing that you were saying before. You could make the free attack with Chill Touch in the round it was cast, but all subsequent touches have to function off regular attack actions as per the held charge rule. Held charges don't get a free attack in the round after they were cast because that free attack is part of the action of casting the spell.

It's like what you were describing with the
a) prep a shocking grasp
b) next round declare spell-combat
c) make melee attack first and discharge shocking grasp
d) cast a second spell and make any touch attacks as normal

In the case of Chill Touch/Frostbite (level 3, for ease's sake), you get:

a) cast chill touch and make free touch attack
b) next round, declare spell combat
c) make normal melee attack first, discharge second charge of Chill Touch
d) cast a second spell, lost charge 3 of Chill Touch

It's not going:

a) cast chill touch and make free touch attack and discharge Chill Touch 1
b) next round, make free touch attack and discharge Chill Touch 2
c) declare spell combat, make normal melee attack and discharge Chill Touch 3
d) cast a second spell, etc.

Edit: Ninjaed by target.


Grick wrote:


It's going to blow your mind when you find out about two-weapon fighting or flurry of blows.

Yeah, I read the description and all makes sense now. I guess it's not really much more powerful than twf; it does make the magus very effective at low levels, not having to spend a feat and getting 2 attacks in a around (one of which is a touch attack).

Osirion

At low level the magus will frequently fail his concentration checks while casting defensively. Often this is compensated by expending a feat on combat casting.


Artanthos wrote:
At low level the magus will frequently fail his concentration checks while casting defensively. Often this is compensated by expending a feat on combat casting.

Also, you can cast a touch spell as a standard action, then take your move action to get into melee range and deliver the spell. When using Spell Combat, you can cast the spell 10' away, 5' step up, then take your melee attacks.


Artanthos wrote:
At low level the magus will frequently fail his concentration checks while casting defensively. Often this is compensated by expending a feat on combat casting.

Yep, without combat casting you want to try and avoid casting defensively at low levels if at all possible; even by taking a trait and alternate racial trait (if available), you're still probably looking at a d20 + 7/8 vs. DC 17 for your Shocking Grasp.


Kazaan wrote:
Artanthos wrote:
At low level the magus will frequently fail his concentration checks while casting defensively. Often this is compensated by expending a feat on combat casting.
Also, you can cast a touch spell as a standard action, then take your move action to get into melee range and deliver the spell. When using Spell Combat, you can cast the spell 10' away, 5' step up, then take your melee attacks.

Yeah, I find casting outside threat range and stepping up (or simply using something like enlarge person for reach) are much more effective "compensations" for failed concentration checks at low levels than choosing combat casting. Its better to not make the check at all if you can help it. At least for routine/offensive spells.

For using spell combat on routine combat rounds though (i.e. for arcane mark or brand to get a second attack via a cantrip), its true that low level magi will certainly frequently fail the concentration check, but that's something I'd generally be willing to live with since you can't "lose" the cantrip. I tend to use big hitters like Shocking Grasp or Frigid Touch in concert with movement/spellstrike to get a big first hit on a new target, rather than using it with spell combat where its potentially going to be overkill, and where I've also got a chance of losing the spell altogether (there are exceptions of course).

In theory, when you would really want the bonus from Combat Casting is when you're stuck in melee already, you're about to die, you want to cast vanish (or mirror image or whatever to escape/survive), and your opponent has reach or the step up feat (or you're just positioned such that a 5 foot step can't get you out of the threatened area), forcing you to make a check. But that's what the built in voluntary attack penalty for concentration check bonus on spell combat is for.

Combat Casting seems tailor made for Magi, but I find it annoying that its just got such a short shelf life. By mid levels, the checks to cast defensively are virtually automatic even without the feat, and its easy enough to work around until then. At later levels its effectively a dead feat, and that makes it terrible IMO. The only saving grace in terms of long-term benefits of CC is that it helps marginally in grapples (but those checks are so absurdly high, that +4 would rarely help IME). I'd only ever take it if the game I was playing in wasn't likely to last past level 5-6 or so.

---

Anyway, back on track ;-)

I concur with the others. The "free" attack only applies in the round the spell was originally cast. In following rounds where you've got charges remaining, they can be discharged via normal melee/natural attacks, but there is no "free" attack in subsequent rounds.

At least until a different touch spell is cast, which would grant a "free" attack to deliver that spell, but may also waste any remaining held charges from the first spell. That bit is unclear (follow Grick's link to the FAQ request on the issue for details on why). I'd certainly rule that held charges on chill touch/frostbite/whatever would dissipate when another spell was cast, but *shrug*.


MTCityHunter wrote:
I'd certainly rule that held charges on chill touch/frostbite/whatever would dissipate when another spell was cast, but *shrug*.

I would probably rule the same way but it looks like that may not have been the way it was intended to work.

If not, then that gets a bit gross at high levels: Stack a spell-storing weapon with an Intensified Shocking Grasp with Haste active for an extra attack, a self-cast Intensified Empowered (via Arcana) Shocking Grasp, a couple of charges of Chill Touch from the previous round, and then pop Forceful Strike as a swift action when you connect with one of your attacks?

And that only requires 10th level...


Xaratherus wrote:
MTCityHunter wrote:
I'd certainly rule that held charges on chill touch/frostbite/whatever would dissipate when another spell was cast, but *shrug*.

I would probably rule the same way but it looks like that may not have been the way it was intended to work.

If not, then that gets a bit gross at high levels: Stack a spell-storing weapon with an Intensified Shocking Grasp with Haste active for an extra attack, a self-cast Intensified Empowered (via Arcana) Shocking Grasp, a couple of charges of Chill Touch from the previous round, and then pop Forceful Strike as a swift action when you connect with one of your attacks?

And that only requires 10th level...

Hey, why stop there? If it were ruled such that once cast, all spells that give you X toches/level aren't technically "held" any longer, but are still available for discharge, why not pre-cast frostbite as well? And...you get the point. SG + CT + FB + spellstoring SG/VT (why not get a natural attack for both, one on your weapon, and one on an AoMF) = GROSS.

Granted, some of that is possible even if charges "go away" when new spells are cast, but its a slippery slope. Lots of folks, myself included, think it pretty likely that JJ and/or JB did not consider the whole picture when making those comments, so its probably best to assume this kind of thing isn't universally applicable.

I suppose I could live with it if it was limited only to chill touch (since their comments were technically limited to a discussion of that specific spell), but I fail to see how its mechanically different from things like frostbite, so IMO its best to stop all these kinds of shenanigans before they start.


Thanks for covering this, general consensus i saw was that frostbite only grants the free attack once. I'll be sure to clear this up.


I'm still a little confused about held charge rules.

Let's say I have a magus who could normally get three attacks per round. Using spell combat and spell strike, he casts a touch spell and makes the free weapon attack as his first attack. He misses. He now gets his three regular attacks. Can any one of these attacks deliver his touch spell?

And if he had cast Chill Touch, could each of these attacks deliver another Chill Touch?


Someone said wrote:

MTCityHunter wrote:

I'd certainly rule that held charges on chill touch/frostbite/whatever would dissipate when another spell was cast, but *shrug*.

You don"t have to rule it is RAW CRB pg 216 " If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."

@Downie
the first attack that hits delivers the spell, if the touch attack applies to multipul attacks then it is appied to each hit as well.

Sczarni

Nevan Oaks wrote:
Someone said wrote:

@Downie
the first attack that hits delivers the spell, if the touch attack applies to multipul attacks then it is appied to each hit as well.

Can you show me where it says that? My understanding was you only get the full attack with the first casting of the spell, and its hit or miss, if you miss the rest of your attacks are normal melee attacks without any channeled touch attacks....and in subsequent rounds you have to use a standard action to use the touch attacks that are being "held"....


pg 213 Touch: you must touch a creature or object to affect it.

so a hit is a touch the spell discharges.

A Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat.(Link from above)

holding a charge (2b)
edit: CRB: pg 185,186

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MTCityHunter wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
MTCityHunter wrote:
I'd certainly rule that held charges on chill touch/frostbite/whatever would dissipate when another spell was cast, but *shrug*.

I would probably rule the same way but it looks like that may not have been the way it was intended to work.

If not, then that gets a bit gross at high levels: Stack a spell-storing weapon with an Intensified Shocking Grasp with Haste active for an extra attack, a self-cast Intensified Empowered (via Arcana) Shocking Grasp, a couple of charges of Chill Touch from the previous round, and then pop Forceful Strike as a swift action when you connect with one of your attacks?

And that only requires 10th level...

Hey, why stop there? If it were ruled such that once cast, all spells that give you X toches/level aren't technically "held" any longer, but are still available for discharge, why not pre-cast frostbite as well? And...you get the point. SG + CT + FB + spellstoring SG/VT (why not get a natural attack for both, one on your weapon, and one on an AoMF) = GROSS.

Granted, some of that is possible even if charges "go away" when new spells are cast, but its a slippery slope. Lots of folks, myself included, think it pretty likely that JJ and/or JB did not consider the whole picture when making those comments, so its probably best to assume this kind of thing isn't universally applicable.

I suppose I could live with it if it was limited only to chill touch (since their comments were technically limited to a discussion of that specific spell), but I fail to see how its mechanically different from things like frostbite, so IMO its best to stop all these kinds of shenanigans before they start.

How many time you can go nova that way?

How many rounds to prepare it?
Caution, don't touch anything while your stuff is charged. Touching any object beside your weapon/shield/held wand will discharge one of your charges.

Climbing? Say bye to the charges from frostbite, chill touch et co. (BTW the same spell cast multiple times don't stack, it overlap, so you need different spells).
Picking a potion? Hope it can survive your frostbite touch. Same thing for a want, scroll or the sandwich you want to eat.

The main problem from my point of view is that we would need a ton of explanations on how a critical while using spellstrike and having those touch attacks active work.

If they aren't held charges but an ability that you have temporarily acquired probably they would not benefit from a critical with the delivering weapon but there is a basis for allowing them to double too.

The rules have a hole here that that has become very evident with the magus.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Caution, don't touch anything while your stuff is charged. Touching any object beside your weapon/shield/held wand will discharge one of your charges...

A thought just occurred to me; how extensive is the charged spell in the caster's body? Is it in a particular hand? Both hands? Whole body? Unarmed Strike was FAQed to be a "whole-body" weapon and you can deliver touch spells via Unarmed Strike. So, since you can deliver a touch strike with something like a headbutt or a belly bounce, does that mean that if someone attacks you with an unarmed strike/natural attack, it triggers your touch spells? Or is it charged into the hand used to cast and only a touch/natural attack using that hand can deliver it? If it's isolated to a particular hand, then you can always just avoid using that hand for handling items.


PhelanArcetus wrote:

Due to Spellstrike, he should be able to deliver the frostbite charge on a normal melee attack as part of the full attack within spell combat. Once he casts shocking grasp, the frostbite dissipates, regardless of his level, since casting a spell wipes out any existing held charge.

But he's not getting a free attack for the frostbite charges except in the round he casts it, wherein the attack is free because it's part of the action of casting the spell. After that, it's a held charge, much as though he had cast any other touch spell the round before and not used the charge.

+1

If he has a held charge from round 1;
In round 2 he can expend his charge through spell strike on his 'normal' weapon attack for the full round action he takes in round 2. Then as his off hand spell attack, he can cast shocking grasp, dissipating any more frostbite he may, or may not have, and use that shocking grasp to attack, either with his hand or again spellstrike with his sword.

the question comes, what if he has multiple charges held from round 1?

in round 2, he attacks (as per normal) and use spellstrike to deliver the held charge.
can he also make an off hand attack to deliver another touch attack, normally through spell combat he would be allowed that action. I dont think the "act" of casting his waht gives him the action economy.

so the question is if he doesnt cast a new spell, can he expend charges of an old spell, using a new rounds action economy, not trying to get an 'extra' action from the held charge, but expend that charge in a new round, using the economy of an action that would normally be there anyway?


As above CRB pg 185: (If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges.)

By RAW looks like you have to touch, so others touching you won"t triger the effect.

IMO the head but or any body part can be the contact, just has to be the PC's action and not someone elses that sets off the spell.


@ Pendagast
yes you could make a second touch attack.
Round 1 cast chill touch (Level 2 Magus) hold charge (2 touches)

round 2 full round acttion attack weapon hits deals damage + chill touch. off-hand touch attack deals spell damage.

Full penalties for two-weapon fighting apply to both attacks.

If you don't twf then you can not get the extra attack and would have a chill touch held for the next round.


but you dont actually HAVe TWF... you have spell combat... its a technicality, I would allow it, im just saying


Thats fine it is your house rule. RAW the touch free attack only works in the round in witch the spell is cast.


okay its simple spellcombat does not give you free attacks

this is how it can work.

lets say you are within 5 Ft of an enemy at the start of your turn.

1. declare spell combat a full round action(-2 on all attacks till next turn)
2. you gain a free touch attack to deliver the charge
3 you move 5 feet in to melee range.
3 you chose to spellstrike. to deliver this charge. and make a melee attack if it hits you deliver a charge of frostbite and normal attack damage.
4you make your full attacks as Spellcombat dictates.

Mind you nowhere it states that you can use your spellstrike on the other charges of frostbite. it clearly states you can use it when delivering the charge on the touch attack delivered by the spell.
[spoler]At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack[/spoiler]
NEXT TURN

You chose either to make a melee touch attack with your frostbite. OR spell combat again.

If you spell combat again you can make a melee touch attack deliver the charge and then cast another spell
OR
you cast a spell lets say shield, Frostbite dissipates and you can again do your full attacks

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Tales Subscriber

Darkflame, I disagree with you. True, nowhere does Spellstrike say you can deliver the additional charges of Frostbite, but it also does not say you can't do it that way. The ability says that you can deliver a "touch" range spell as part of a melee weapon attack. It goes on to clarify that you can also, in place of the free touch attack granted by the spell upon casting, make a free melee weapon attack as part of the casting.

SRD wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon’s critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

The round progression would look something like this (2nd level Magus):

1. Declare Spell Combat
2. Cast Frostbite
3. 5-foot-step into range.
4. Make either a free melee touch attack OR a free weapon attack. -2 Spell Combat penalty
5. Make normal round attack, choosing whether or not to deal spell-charge damage if it hits (use of the word can implies a choice). -2 Spell Combat Penalty

Shadow Lodge

The way I do it is I Spellstrike with the first attack, so if I miss I have another chance to discharge it on the same turn.


Main thing about that free attack with the weapon is its a trade-off. If you just did the free touch by hand, then you're going against touch AC which is usually much easier to succeed with. Using the weapon attack is against regular AC, so while you could do extra damage, you're also more likely to miss and not deliver the spell damage. Wether its a good idea to do the touch or use weapon is going to depend on circumstances and your opponent every time. I think I've found myself just doing the touch by hand with my Magus, a little more often.

Grick wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Do people still think they can get an extra melee attacking using spell combat in conjunction with spellstrike?

Depending on how you mean 'extra' the answer is probably yes.

rando1000 wrote:
I have a friend who plays that way. Normal attack, cast spell, free attack. I assume that's not right?

If you cast a touch spell, you get to make a touch attack as a free action any time during that turn.

Spellstrike lets you deliver a touch spell with your weapon instead of a touch.

Spell Combat lets you make your melee attack(s), and also cast a spell.

They can all be used together.

A level 2 magus can use Spell Combat as a full-round action. He can make a melee attack (with -2 penalty). He can cast a spell. If that spell is a touch spell, then because he cast a touch spell it grants him an attack as a free action. He can choose to make that attack with a touch, or with his melee weapon, in either case at a -2 penalty.

Here's A Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat.

rando1000 wrote:
It seemed excessive to me.

It's going to blow your mind when you find out about two-weapon fighting or flurry of blows.


Nevan Oaks wrote:
Thats fine it is your house rule. RAW the touch free attack only works in the round in witch the spell is cast.

you just contradicted yourself, on one hand you said you can make a second touch attack next round, and then yu said by RAW you cant.

we are discussing action economy, not how many held charges you may or many not have.


Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell.

just the one attack is part of the spell. and other attacks are not part of the spell. so you cant use spellstrike there.

i know the guide states otherwise but there are no rules backing this logic. There are no rules saying you can deliver other charges trough your weapon. (i would like for this to be true as im playing a magus muself and it would make sense logicly.)


As I didn't see a direct answer to this I thought I'd try to give one.

Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm still a little confused about held charge rules.

Let's say I have a magus who could normally get three attacks per round. Using spell combat and spell strike, he casts a touch spell and makes the free weapon attack as his first attack. He misses. He now gets his three regular attacks. Can any one of these attacks deliver his touch spell?

Yes. As long as you hold a charge you can deliver it via spellstrike.

Matthew Downie wrote:


And if he had cast Chill Touch, could each of these attacks deliver another Chill Touch?

That is another question. As I understood it it is a held charge at first (as long as that's the case it should work) but after the first round it is no longer a held charge but a spell that can be used to deliver a touch attack instead of another attack. How that works with spellstrike I can't tell you.


Umbranus wrote:

As I didn't see a direct answer to this I thought I'd try to give one.

Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm still a little confused about held charge rules.

Let's say I have a magus who could normally get three attacks per round. Using spell combat and spell strike, he casts a touch spell and makes the free weapon attack as his first attack. He misses. He now gets his three regular attacks. Can any one of these attacks deliver his touch spell?

Yes. As long as you hold a charge you can deliver it via spellstrike.

where in the rules doese it say this?

Osirion

Darkflame wrote:
Umbranus wrote:


Yes. As long as you hold a charge you can deliver it via spellstrike.

where in the rules doese it say this?

Here

Quote:

Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?

Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185). So, just like casting a touch spell, a magus could use spellstrike to cast a touch spell, take a move toward an enemy, then (as a free action) make a melee attack with his weapon to deliver the spell.

On a related topic, the magus touching his held weapon doesn’t count as “touching anything or anyone” when determining if he discharges the spell. A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell. However, if the magus touches anything other than a weapon with that hand (such as retrieving a potion), that discharges the spell as normal.

Basically, the spellstrike gives the magus more options when it comes to delivering touch spells; it’s not supposed to make it more difficult for the magus to use touch spells.

—Sean K Reynolds, 02/07/12

Emphasis mine.


Darkflame wrote:
where in the rules doese it say this?

"whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."

That's actually pretty ambiguous. Does it mean only when casting the spell, or held charges as well? Has this been clarified / FAQ'd?


Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm still a little confused about held charge rules.

Let's say I have a magus who could normally get three attacks per round. Using spell combat and spell strike, he casts a touch spell and makes the free weapon attack as his first attack. He misses. He now gets his three regular attacks. Can any one of these attacks deliver his touch spell?

Technically, no. You don't hold the charge until the end of your turn. Yes, this opens a stupid loophole about casting a touch spell and a quickened touch spell and holding the charge on both without dissipating whichever one you cast first, and no, that's clearly not how it's supposed to work. JB's ruling on chill touch sets precedent that the intent is for holding the charge to apply after the free attack, as long as the spell is not yet delivered.

Matthew Downie wrote:

"whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack."

That's actually pretty ambiguous. Does it mean only when casting the spell, or held charges as well?

By casting a magus touch spell, you can deliver that spell through a weapon.

If you have a held charge, you could normally deliver the spell with a touch, or with an unarmed strike or natural weapon. Since you have Spellstrike, you can also deliver it through a weapon as part of a melee attack.

The second line clarifies that this includes the free attack granted by casting the spell.


Kazaan wrote:
A thought just occurred to me; how extensive is the charged spell in the caster's body? Is it in a particular hand? Both hands? Whole body?

Nowhere in the RAW is it suggested the charge is stored in any particular body part. The only time it's been implied was in the FAQ Attack, and there's a FAQ request here to verify if it was just a slip of the tongue or a whole new ruling with fairly dire consequences for all casters that use touch spells.


Nevan Oaks wrote:

@ Pendagast

yes you could make a second touch attack.
Round 1 cast chill touch (Level 2 Magus) hold charge (2 touches)

round 2 full round acttion attack weapon hits deals damage + chill touch. off-hand touch attack deals spell damage.

Full penalties for two-weapon fighting apply to both attacks.

If you don't twf then you can not get the extra attack and would have a chill touch held for the next round.

You're suggesting the magus uses two-weapon fighting instead of Spell Combat, and uses a held charge as his off-hand?

I'm not sure that works. Two-Weapon Fighting works when you "wield a second weapon in your off hand" and while a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell counts as being armed, that doesn't mean it's a weapon.

Further, that would open the door for multiple touches in a full-attack from high-BAB, which JJ ruled against here.


Darkflame wrote:
Umbranus wrote:

As I didn't see a direct answer to this I thought I'd try to give one.

Matthew Downie wrote:

I'm still a little confused about held charge rules.

Let's say I have a magus who could normally get three attacks per round. Using spell combat and spell strike, he casts a touch spell and makes the free weapon attack as his first attack. He misses. He now gets his three regular attacks. Can any one of these attacks deliver his touch spell?

Yes. As long as you hold a charge you can deliver it via spellstrike.

where in the rules doese it say this?
Spellstrike FAQ wrote:
A magus could even use the spellstrike ability, miss with his melee attack to deliver the spell, be disarmed by an opponent (or drop the weapon voluntarily, for whatever reason), and still be holding the charge in his hand, just like a normal spellcaster. Furthermore, the weaponless magus could pick up a weapon (even that same weapon) with that hand without automatically discharging the spell, and then attempt to use the weapon to deliver the spell.

While this FAQ was mainly about the question if it is possible to drop your weapon and pick it (or another weapon) up again without discharging the spell on the weapon it explicitly states that you can try to discharge the spell through your weapon after having missed with your free attack.

All in all you could even cast your spell, make your free attack, make your other attacks, if all miss next turn you can make your normal attacks and after you finally hit (if you announced spell combat) cast your new spell and use your free attack after that.

Edit: Remainder to self: Don't answer stuff after lunchbreak without reloading the thread or you'll be ninjad.

1 to 50 of 74 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Issues with Magus free touch attacks All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.