Stone Call vs Create Pit


Advice

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If you could only choose one between stone call or create pit, which would it be and why?

I ask because I'm having trouble deciding on which I want to get at next level, but I know it will be one of them. Note: I can only pick one of them, the other sort of has to be Web (has to do with my spell school).

So, what do you guys think?


Create Pit

Stone call can be nice in several builds and situations, but from the information given: yes, create pit.


Third Mind wrote:

If you could only choose one between stone call or create pit, which would it be and why?

I ask because I'm having trouble deciding on which I want to get at next level, but I know it will be one of them. Note: I can only pick one of them, the other sort of has to be Web (has to do with my spell school).

So, what do you guys think?

Stone Call - a lot of uses for a wide area of difficult terrain that a Reflex save will do nothing to help out with. You can get one of the other excellent Pit spells later.


I don't really like the standard Create Pit. I'd take Stone Call for that decent no-save area damage and difficult terrain.

Hold out for Spiked Pit at the very least IMO.

Sczarni

I like create pit. Then instead of the spiked pit aqeous orb so you can vacuum them up and drop them in the pit still.


Why only those two? There are so many other level 2 spells that are so much better.


Thanks for the votes thus far everyone, they do indeed help.

@mplindustries - I currently have invisibility and entangle (school thing) and am trying to get some spells to increase my battlefield control options. However, if there is something you feel is extremely good, I'm more than open to looking and thinking it over.

Sczarni

glitterdust and pyrotechnics I found a lot of use for.


I'd take Glitterdust every time.

Sczarni

pyrotechinics requires one save vs everyturn. also has the nasty smoke. The silliness you need a fire is solved by alchemist fire. Have a buddy ready an action to throw it and let the fun begin.


I would normally take glitterdust, but do to me being a Wood specialized wizard (thus the ability to use entangle as mentioned above) glitterdust is in my opposing school. I know that doesn't mean I can't take it, but at this current level I wouldn't be able to use it. I will pick it up later however.

I will make sure to look over pyrotechnics again though. Thanks again for the suggestions.


create pit is IMHO one of the best battlefield control spells in the game. Stone call is good but you can really screw up a large group of enemies with a well placed create pit.

Sczarni

Bottle necking the fight as well. I have had a pit force the bad guys everyturn take reflex saves to fight us while we could plink them from a distance.


I would definitely do Create Pit. It's cool, it does damage, it's really good battlefield control, it doesn't hurt your allies (necessarily)and to top it off it's just plain fun! Popping holes in the ground left and right, and essentially making most enemies useless for a few turns? Sign me up!

Sovereign Court

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If you fight in the open a lot, Stone Call. The difficult terrain stops enemy charges and gives your archers more time.

If you fight indoors a lot, Create Pit; you can create bottlenecks of even just plain plug corridors with it.


Im pretty sure glitterdust is not in your opposing school

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Wasum wrote:
Im pretty sure glitterdust is not in your opposing school

If he's a Wood specialist, then his opposing school is Metal, and glitterdust is a Metal spell (at least according to Ultimate Magic)


Dang:(


Thanks everyone.

We've been doing mostly outdoor stuff, but create pit could do well in forcing opponents into my allies clutches.

I think, for the next level, I'll go create pit even though pelting enemies with damage is really nice.


I think Web is probably more useful if you're a Wood caster, or even Protection from Arrows for when you're flying above every battle in a few levels. I don't know, I just really don't like either spell you're considering.


I vote create pit for sheer hilarity.

Dark Archive

Can't you ready to cast a spell? Ready action: cast create pit if he charges me...THAT strikes me as funny.

Sovereign Court

If you're taking Web, definitely Create Pit. Just get one or two guys in the pit, then put a web across the top. Good luck climbing out now, guys!

PS: Remember that anyone that takes lethal damage from a fall lands prone, and has to take a move action to stand up.


My group has also used create pit to escape a trap before. Can't get the portcullis up? Go UNDER it.


Also, the cast had fly up but was basically having at ground level. A person lunge attacked and damaged her ... And she dropped a pit right under her own feet and flew away.


Arssanguinus, I think the portcullis violates the 'must have room' element of the Create Pit spell. But, I like the idea.

- Gauss


Yeah, I think I'll definitely go with create pit at this point. Just curious, how long does it take an opponent to get out of the pit? Could they just climb out and continue attacking me?


Yes they can. Climbing out works like this:

For basic Create Pit the climb DC starts at 25.
If the creature is medium and has half a brain they will use the corners and reduce the climb DC by 5.
If they are large and have half a brain they will use the corners AND opposing walls to reduce the climb DC by 15.

Then, as a move action, they can make a climb check. Success means they move 1/4 their speed upwards. Note: if they have a climb speed they can move their climb speed.

If the climber wishes they can take a -5 penalty to the climb check and move at half speed (or double climb speed if they have a climb speed).

Example:

Target: Large Creature with a climb score of 10 and no climb speed. Land speed is 40'.

On your turn it fails its save and falls into a 30' deep pit created by your Create Pit spell.

On it's turn, it stands up (move action), and then starts climbing out (move action).
The DC starts at 25 but because it is halfway intelligent it uses the corners and opposing walls to reduce it to DC 10. It then decides to use an accelerated climb.

It rolls the check and succeeds (needed to roll a 5) and climbs up 20'.

Next turn it makes another climb check and accelerates it again (DC10, -5 to the roll). It succeeds again. It climbs up to the top (10 feet distance, 20feet used) and is out.

Since it only burned 20 feet of movement to reach the top it still has another 20 feet of movement. It gets out, moves the remaining 20 feet and still has a standard or move action available. Enjoy!

Summary: Create Pit is a good delaying tactic while your allies get ready. For things that have a poor climb skill and/or aren't smart enough to use the corners and opposing walls it is even better.

But, I find the best use for it is to occupy space you do not want the enemy to occupy. Blocking off doorways, etc is a great use. Just remember, they can jump or fly across.

- Gauss


Third Mind wrote:
Yeah, I think I'll definitely go with create pit at this point. Just curious, how long does it take an opponent to get out of the pit? Could they just climb out and continue attacking me?

Yes, they can just climb out. This is one of several reasons I don't really love the spell.


climbing out is dangerous too. Ending your turn adjenct to can have you fall in again. I had a guy double move climb out and then end his turn next to it and fall in again.


Finlanderboy, that is easy to fix, dont climb all the way out. Additionally, since climb is part of a move you can climb and then use your remaining movement normally.

Example: you have 5' to get out, that will take 20feet of movement. Your move speed is 30'. You climb out (20feet used) and then move 10feet to move away from the pit. No more falling in.

- Gauss


I understand that, btu when the DM ended his turn there it is sloped. I asked are you sure you want to end there VS provoking. He said yes. if your pit is set up right you can make it very hard for things.


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At that point you've still taken at least one round of action away from possibly more than one enemies, and forced everyone else to stand away from it. Not a bad thing.

edit: I was responding to Gauss

Just a week or so ago I played with my local PFS. My wizard just learned create pit :) I ended up trapping 3 mites down in the pit with our raging barbarian. When the spell ended, he rose up from the ground like a rock star, covered in blood and roaring! That was pretty epic :D


That would be 2 rounds if they have to wait at the lip. =P


I was figuring a double move action.

I think I misread his example :P

Dark Archive

Create pit is pretty good on average targets at the level you get it. Most guys so far are moving at 1/4 speed to get out, which results in approximately 4 rounds of 1+ enemies not being threats any longer.

I had also considered using it as a utility spell as well, and creating pits to get under walls, and the like. Hop down, climb up the other side.


Unfortunately, you cannot use it to create a pit to get under a wall. The available space clause prevents it.

- Gauss

Dark Archive

I missed that rule. Not sure where it is in relation to spells beyond the description. *searches*


Gauss wrote:

Arssanguinus, I think the portcullis violates the 'must have room' element of the Create Pit spell. But, I like the idea.

- Gauss

It did have room. The gate in question didn't extend into the floor, and the floor was wide enough and long enough underneath it. It wouldn't have been usable in most situations.

Besides, rule of cool.


Dark Immortal,

APG p213 Create Pit wrote:
You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size.

Since a wall limits the horizontal surface available you cannot create it under a wall and get around the wall that way.

- Gauss


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I always pictured the pit as rounded, so no corners to use.

Silver Crusade

Gauss wrote:

Dark Immortal,

APG p213 Create Pit wrote:
You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size.

Since a wall limits the horizontal surface available you cannot create it under a wall and get around the wall that way.

- Gauss

Since it's an extra-dimensional hole, does that mean that if you had really dumb enemies, more than 4 of them could get caught in it?


Stone Call is way too big to fit nicely on most battle maps (in my experience). I'd go with something else.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I vote for stone call.

1) It has a wide area effect, and screws up charges.

2) It does unsoakable damage.

3) You never need a survival check in the woods again. "We need food!" *casts stone call* "There, just watch your step and collect the squirles, rabbits, and other small wildlife." :-)


Matthew Morris wrote:

I vote for stone call.

1) It has a wide area effect, and screws up charges.

2) It does unsoakable damage.

3) You never need a survival check in the woods again. "We need food!" *casts stone call* "There, just watch your step and collect the squirles, rabbits, and other small wildlife." :-)

You then have the local druids coming after you.

Sovereign Court

A bit of a derail here, I have a question about create pit:

Do spells that prevent dimensional travel also prevent create pit from working?


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Human Diversion wrote:

A bit of a derail here, I have a question about create pit:

Do spells that prevent dimensional travel also prevent create pit from working?

I would think that would only work if they cast it on the pit, not the caster. If I were GMing and a player tried that I'd run it like a dispel check.


My opinion on the two spells depends on where most of your fighting will be taking place. Large rooms, fields/forest, or other open areas stone call. Tunnels, corridors, small rooms, etc. then create pit. If you can get both then prep the one that will work for the situation.


Well, thus far most of our encounters have been outside, save for one underground quest and a very quick bout inside a kobold cave. I'm fairly certain that sometime soon (after we get next level I would think) we'd be trying to take over a castle run by bandits.

I could see Stone Call being useful for the castle take over, especially if there is a surplus of bandits within the area, not to mention it would help slow them while we took pot shots at those that are left standing.

Create pit however, as others have mention would be useful outside, but even more so inside and one doesn't always need a huge area of effect. Less damage, but potentially take the enemy longer to get at us and helps me control the battlefield which is the first thing I'm going for in my build, however stone call helps control the battlefield as well.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. It's about even for me now.

Just curious since I'm on this thread anyways. What happens if 2 difficult terrains overlap? Like, if I had cast Stone Call making that area difficult terrain, then cast a different spell like entangle or something else that gives difficult terrain? I'd assume nothing special and that they'd still move at the speed a normal difficult terrain would force them to.

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