Hi all. I posted a while back trying to build a switch hitter that incorporated TWF and archery for a Core-rules PF game. Had to step away for a while, but further discussion and introspection made me realize that my priorities were a little different than I initially envisioned them to be.
I now realize I don't care how many weapons my ranger is wielding in melee, as long as he's decent at it when the going gets tough and he needs to put the bow away. What I do care about is this: I want to build an elf ranger with high Dex who is good at stealth and gets the AC boost to offset his not-great armor. A low Dex ranger (which is suggested around here sometimes) seems like blasphemy to me, but so does some wuss archery specialist who can't swing a sword. I'd like to be okay in melee if necessary, rather than solely being a Legolas type. I don't need to be tank-material, but I want to be better than a bard at killing from up close.
Can I be at least decent at both archery and melee using core rules? If so, how?
I don't think it'd be too hard to do - take Archery as your Style Mastery and pack an Elven Curve Blade.
Off the top of my head, I'm thinking something like this (assuming a 20 point buy and you don't go Animal Companion, neccessitating Boon Companion):
Elven Ranger
Attributes:
STR - 14
DEX - 16 (+2 racial mod)
CON - 14 (-2 racial mod)
INT - 10 (+2 racial mod)
WIS - 12
CHA - 8
Feats:
1st - Power Attack
2nd - Rapid Shot
3rd - Endurance
3rd - Point Blank Shot
5th - Precise Shot
6th - Manyshot
7th - Weapon Focus: Longbow
9th - Snap Shot
10th - Improved Precise Shot
11th - Improved Snap Shot
13th - Combat Reflexes
14th - Improved Precise Shot
15th - Improved Critical: Elven Curve Blade
17th - Improved Critical: Longbow
18th - Point Blank Master
19th - Hammer the Gap
Lots of other things you can do though - consider Quickdraw to go from Bow to blade, Weapon Finnesse to improve your chance to hit in melee or Critical Focus/Blinding Critical to make the most out of your many critical hits.
As an aside, Legolas was pretty bad-@ss when fighting two-handed as I recall.
Hi all. I posted a while back trying to build a switch hitter that incorporated TWF and archery for a Core-rules PF game. Had to step away for a while, but further discussion and introspection made me realize that my priorities were a little different than I initially envisioned them to be.
I now realize I don't care how many weapons my ranger is wielding in melee, as long as he's decent at it when the going gets tough and he needs to put the bow away. What I do care about is this: I want to build an elf ranger with high Dex who is good at stealth and gets the AC boost to offset his not-great armor. A low Dex ranger (which is suggested around here sometimes) seems like blasphemy to me, but so does some wuss archery specialist who can't swing a sword. I'd like to be okay in melee if necessary, rather than solely being a Legolas type. I don't need to be tank-material, but I want to be better than a bard at killing from up close.
Can I be at least decent at both archery and melee using core rules? If so, how?
I don't think it'd be too hard to do - take Archery as your Style Mastery and pack an Elven Curve Blade.
Off the top of my head, I'm thinking something like this (assuming a 20 point buy and you don't go Animal Companion, neccessitating Boon Companion):
Elven Ranger
Attributes:
STR - 14
DEX - 16 (+2 racial mod)
CON - 14 (-2 racial mod)
INT - 10 (+2 racial mod)
WIS - 12
CHA - 8Feats:
1st - Power Attack
2nd - Rapid Shot
3rd - Endurance
3rd - Point Blank Shot
5th - Precise Shot
6th - Manyshot
7th - Weapon Focus: Longbow
9th - Snap Shot
10th - Improved Precise Shot
11th - Improved Snap Shot
13th - Combat Reflexes
14th - Improved Precise Shot
15th - Improved Critical: Elven Curve Blade
17th - Improved Critical: Longbow
18th - Point Blank Master
19th - Hammer the GapLots of other things you can do though - consider Quickdraw to go from Bow to blade, Weapon Finnesse to improve your chance to hit in melee or Critical Focus/Blinding...
i say go human instead, it lets you get quickdraw earlier, or if you dont care about that you can take versatile human and get an extra +2 to a choice stat, without having to take a negative to CON, and thus allowing you to get a better stat array overall, there are also ways around getting proficiency with the curve blade if thats your fancy, but tbh its not that important if you wanna go around with a falchion or a greatsword
i prefer a point buy that looks like:
STR 15
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 7
versatile human puts +2 into both STR and DEX and you bump them at lvl 4 and 8 depending on what you consider more important at the time, but they should both be 18's by the time you're done
im also a fan of the dodge + mobility chain, since you should be very mobile as a ranger so added bonuses to AC never hurt, considering you will be running around in medium armor
and as far as switch hitting goes, i dont take point blank shot because any time you would be firing within 30 feet, you should be going melee anyway, otherwise whats the point of being a switch hitter? rangers are the only class that can get away with skipping it, so i dont see a point in taking it
the main feats you care about before lvl 5 are power attack, quickdraw, and deadly aim, usually in that order, after that you can focus on other things
I think the OP's intent wasn't to be a 'switch-hitter' per se, but rather an archer who would still be competent in melee.
Honestly, I rather like the idea of someone who can make full attacks at range, get off some AoO shots as the enemy closes and then use Quickdraw to whip out his high-crit two-handed blade and slice them to ribbons.
Two weapon fighting is a lot more feat intensive...all you need for a two hander is power attack...
@master_marshmallow
To the above poster on race, elf is the choice. Think Elladan and Elrohir (or an elven version of the Rangers of the North/South) if you're a LOTR fan.
Quickdraw seems good for sure.
yeah i saw that afterwards
whoops, still
20 point buy:
17 STR
15 DEX (+2 race= 17)
13 CON (-2 race= 11)
8 INT (+2 race= 10)
13 WIS
7 CHA
higher point buys mean you can put more into WIS and CON, WIS being priority for choice skills and spellcasting
using a 2 handed weapon benefits most from an 18 STR, hence spending all those points on getting a 17, since 2HW favors even numbered modifiers, and +6 damage from an 18 STR is a lot better than +4 from a 16 STR
for that reason, and also because you just plain need quickdraw, weapon finesse isnt going to benefit you since you value STR and DEX equally
feat selection remains the same:
1) Power Attack
2) Rapid Shot
3) Quickdraw
5) Deadly Aim
6) Manyshot
7) Dodge
9) Mobility
10) Precise Shot/Improved Precise Shot/Shot on the Run (really up to you)
11) Spring Attack
being frail means you need to be able to move in and out of combat a lot without getting hit, shot on the run and spring attack make sure you can do that
The intent is switch-hitting though--the only difference from Treantmonk's guide is that I'm going to up my dex as well as my strength, because I'm not just taking ranger for the free combat feats... I actually like to flavor of the class and it's other abilities too (I may sound like an OG for enjoying RP elements over powergaming but w/e). But full ranged attacks (after stealthily gathering info about the enemy) and then fighting in melee, rather than wussing out/using a bow in close quarters which I find ridiculous and cheap, is what I'm going for.@Damocles Guile
Would TWF + Finesse be better than a single weapon or no? Yo mention it at the end of the post, but that build you provided to start with looks great to me.@master_marshmallow
To the above poster on race, elf is the choice. Think Elladan and Elrohir (or an elven version of the Rangers of the North/South) if you're a LOTR fan.
Quickdraw seems good for sure.
Role Playing(TM) and Optimization aren't mutually exclusive concepts. A high Strength ranger with the archery feat chain can totally exist as a "ranger" and not just a "Guy With A Greatsword And Bow With Extra Skills And Scary Animal" DPR machine.
Use a 2handed weapon, it's less feat intensive than twf. Archery needs to take up a lot of your feats as is.
Build with high str and dex, dex is secondary to str to be honest (str = damage, dex = to hit and you are full base attack already).
20 point (after elf)
15 str level up points here
16 dex
12 con
10 int
14 wis
10 cha
Or you could go half elf (and flavor him at more elf like?)
17 str (+2 racial)
15 Dex
13 Con
10 Int
13 Wis
10 Cha
Put a point in dex, con, str, then wis. With their skill feat you can pick stealth.
i always try and get 18's in both DEX and STR for switch hitters, since higher STRs mean i can use better composite bows anyway, in addition to the extra damage from a 2 handed weapon
you get a crap ton of skills anyway, so dropping INT isnt bad since you get a bonus to it anyway so you can keep it at 0 and get yourself some extra points for the buy, or even dump it and itll only be at -1, 5 skill ranks/ level is still more than most paladins will ever see
doing so yields this:
17 STR
17 DEX
12 CON
9 INT
13 WIS
7 CHA
lvls 4 and 8 are where you bump STR and DEX in whatever order you find yourself needing more, and lvl 12 and 16 are for WIS and INT respectively, getting you a free skill to max out later on, and making sure you have the 14 WIS needed for access to 4th level spells at lvl 13
The stat array makes sense given the goals you have. High dex without dump-statting too much appears to be exactly what you wanted and what you achieved.
I guess you could try something strange like lowering your strength, using Weapon Finesse and using poisons for your melee weapons.
Probably not a good idea but might be worth thinking about briefly.
Every 4 points of str is 3 points melee damage and 2 points range. Average bow shot is 4.5 damage. 14 str means 6.5 damage per hit, 18 = 8.5. That's 30% more damage
This % gets lower later in the game but it's always going to be there.
Now let's look at a melee weapon. 1 does 2d8 damage. This is 5 ave. 14 str = 8, 18 str = 11 or 37.5% more damage. Not to mention either better chance to hit or saving a feat.
Every 4 points of str is 3 points melee damage and 2 points range. Average bow shot is 4.5 damage. 14 str means 6.5 damage per hit, 18 = 8.5. That's 30% more damage
This % gets lower later in the game but it's always going to be there.
Now let's look at a melee weapon. 1 does 2d8 damage. This is 5 ave. 14 str = 8, 18 str = 11 or 37.5% more damage. Not to mention either better chance to hit or saving a feat.
so in other words, yes, a 14-15 STR will not do
if you want a high DEX i would want 17's in both STR and DEX, less you get a 25 point buy
Thanks for the number crunch Rylar. What about Strength boosting items from a STR of 15-16? I'm thinking my spellcasting will basically be out the window if I raise STR too high?Every 4 points of str is 3 points melee damage and 2 points range. Average bow shot is 4.5 damage. 14 str means 6.5 damage per hit, 18 = 8.5. That's 30% more damage
This % gets lower later in the game but it's always going to be there.
Now let's look at a melee weapon. 1 does 2d8 damage. This is 5 ave. 14 str = 8, 18 str = 11 or 37.5% more damage. Not to mention either better chance to hit or saving a feat.
so in other words, yes, a 14-15 STR will not do
if you want a high DEX i would want 17's in both STR and DEX, less you get a 25 point buy
core rangers dont get any STR boosting spells, you dont even get bull's strength
planning a character getting a belt of +x STR just to function is kinda meh
im trying to find a way to satisfy your desire to NOT dump CHA and INT but i always end up dumping one of them, that one being CHA
best stat array i can come up with for you:
STR 17
DEX 15 +2
CON 13 -2
INT 8 +2
WIS 13
CHA 7
you still dump that CHA, but you retain the 17's for STR and DEX so you can get them both to 18 by level 8
magic items on top of that are candy, but dont count on candy for sustenance
statistically, and if you are asking for genuine advice, i would say yes a 16 is too low if you plan on 2HWing as a main form of combat
an 18 as a stat is the best way to go for it, since a 20 only nets you +1 damage since its an odd modifier, and a 3 takes away an extra 2 points per attack that are that much more valuable to you, especially at low levels
if you are okay with it, then by all means go for it, its your character
myself, i also hate dump stats, but its something ive just adapted to
there are a lot of problems with point buy as a whole, since it promotes dump stating and min-maxing, there would be a lot less power gamers that get butthurt about things in game if they didnt have to worry about losing out on putting so much effort in finding the perfect balance in a flawed system imo
The extra damage for 2handed is usually better than the extra armor from a shield.
I'm not 100% sure on the current ruling, but you may not need such high wisdom. In d&d you could use buffs to hit the needed 14 to cast max level spells. Dumping wisdom was a common strategy in ddo. Talk to your DM and find how they translate the rule. Even if you cant 13 wisdom + 1 @ 12 will still let you cast level 4's in time. This will let you put charisma up a little.
When it comes to counting on buffs- remember that bull's strength will take 18 to 22. It will only take a 16 with a +2 str belt to 20. Also @ 20 you want 20 str and a + 6 str belt, if you are planning for 20.
ive been advocating nothing less than a 17 DEX, i also value a 17 STR
WIS is important because its the main stat for perception, and survival, the 2 most used skills by rangers, as well as affecting your spells
i would hate to see WIS any lower than 13, its way too important
and again, the 16 STR is viable, but not as good, and he's asking for advice, so thats our advice
if a 16 was just as good id say its just as good, but its not
now, comparatively speaking, an 18 STR is just as good as a 20 STR because you get over the hump of netting more than 1 damage from STR and a half, so the 20 STR only gets you a measly 1 more damage instead of 3, meaning the balance point for the best DPR to point buy ratio is keeping STR near 18
16 STR will do +4 damage per hit, and an 18 will do +6
at low levels thats an extra turn you buy yourself
i realize he wont be getting to 18 STR until lvl 4 at the soonest, but it doesnt mean its still not the best choice if he values his damage output like he's saying he does
remember these are all suggestions, its your character dude
Finess build is not giving much bang for the feat in my opinion. Even if you run 14 str and 18 dex finess only gives you + 2 to attack while limiting your weapon choice.
Anything, seriously anything, can work. One of my first characters was a 13/13/13/13/13/14 sorcerer who ended up stealing the show by stabbing things with his spear...
But if you want a stronger character you want str more than dex. If that fails your character concept then don't take that advise, I wouldn't...
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My recommendation is to stick to your idea. It works well for most campaign. The idea that you need a high Str as well is just not even close to true. Good at range damage with the ability to do melee if needed.
Elf Ranger
Str 14
Dex 19 (17+2Elf)
Con 12 (14-2Elf)
Int 10 (8+2Elf)
Wis 11
Cha 8
1: Weapon Finesse
Combat Style Feet 2: Point Blank Shot
3: Two Weapon Fighting
5: Deadly Aim
Combat Style Feet 6: Rapid Shot
7: Precise Shot
9: Clustered Shots
Combat Style Feet 10: Shot on the Run
11: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
How is it "not even close to true"? The character's rolein combat is damage dealer. The more str the character has the more damage it will deal. This is esp true when wielding a handed weapon.
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Combat is not just about who can do the most damage. It is about being effective. You can be effective and not weald a two hander. You can be effective and not have a high Str. You can be effective and focus on Dex. From my experience with home games, and PFSP. Range combat focused, or switch hitters. Do better with a Dex as a main focus over Str. Any thing under a starting main stat of 17 is normally a bad idea. Starting with a 16 is good for a secondary. Point buy system makes it so that any character that is MAD. They have tough choices to make. Where as SAD can focus there points on just a few stats.
I tend to make characters from a concept. Then fit the rules to the concept. Not make a Min/Max character then make a back story for them. The concept here is a Dex base Elf Ranger. Not a Min/Max Elf Ranger that destroys encounters.
His character concept as I've read doesn't support a low strength stat lineup. He is going to have high dex as well.
Why is under 17 starting dex bad? In my experience my archers only miss when I role poorly. I don't see an extra 5% hit being as important as the extra 2 damage. What I mean is +1 dex mod is not better than +2 str mod. Once they are even increasing either is just as good as the other. I wouldn't leave either at 14 to get the other to 17.
And that is just for archery. Once you get into melee str becomes clearly more important as it increases both hit and damage without costing a feat or trying to find an agile weapon nor does it force you to wield a weapon you don't want to.
As archery is the core point in this build I'd still keep str and dex as even and high as possible without completely dumping other stats.
In the end, the big question is simply: what kind of character do you really want to play?
* Optimized or not (how optimized are the others going to be?)
* Do you want to be the main melee guy or are you backup?
* Primarily ranged, melee, or both?
* Do you want to be good at other rangery stuff like perception, survival and spellcasting?
* And at what level do you want to hit your stride?
* How dependent do you want to be on magic items? (And how much control do you have over the items you're going to get?)
Str 14 is of course perfectly playable, but you're not going to be the primary damage dealer.
If everybody is unoptimized and the campaign takes that into account, Str 14 is great. But the extra damage from Str 18 is going to be very noticeable, and if someone else has a high Str 2H fighter, he's going to steal the show damage-wise.
Also, with Str 14, the 2H weapon only gets you an extra +1 damage, while it gets you +2 at Str 18. So you could also with sword and shield, or even just keep using that bow. And hey, now you're not a switch-hitter anymore. Also, a shield is no good for a switch-hitter because when you drop that bow, you now need to draw two items instead of only one, and that takes time. So while Str 14 is definitely possible, it does draw you away from the typical switch-hitter strengths, and makes you more an archer who happens to also have a sword.
Any build with the Point Blank Shot feat is assuming that you'll be using your bow in melee. The real switch-hitter doesn't shoot point-blank, he hits people with his sword point-blank.
The Str 18, Dex 18 switch-hitter with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Deadly Aim and Power Attack does terrifying amounts of damage at range and in melee. And the advantage of being a Ranger is that you get to skip feats like Point Blank Shot, which a switch-hitter isn't going to need.
If you drop your Str, you will do significantly less damage in melee. Also at range (once you've got that composite bow), but that difference isn't quite a big.
The Str 17, Dex 17 ranger starts a bit slower, because he won't have them both at 18 until he gets to level 8. If your campaign might not even get that far, this could be a bad idea.
If you don't mind depending on magic items, a +4 Str belt costs the same as a Str +2, Dex +2 belt: 16,000 gp. It's going to take a while to get either. But 4000 gp gets you a +2 Str belt which you could get around level 5ish if you focus all your money on it and you're close to WBL.
So start at Str 15 even, increase at level 4, buy the belt, and suddenly your Str is 18. Many levels later, you upgrade it to a belt that also boosts your Dex, and suddenly you've got Str 18 Dex 20. On the other hand, if your Str starts at 18, you're not really interested in a belt that gets you a +2. Only +4 is really interesting, so you'll mostly be boosting your Dex, first to 20 and then to 22.
So Str 16, 15 or even 14 is certainly viable, but it makes less of a switch-hitter until you finally get the right magic items.
10 con should be fine. Rangers have 10 health per level and toughness is not out of reach if you feel you need it, since rangers get so many bonus feats. Besides you aren't a melee, you are an archer that can melee.