| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So in the 8ish years that I've been playing tabletops, I have only ever twice played characters that don't spontaneously cast spells, and both of those characters ended up never casting spells (with the exception of me getting rid of a prepared spell for a "cure" spell) I can't understand why people play wizards and witches and stuff instead of sorcerers and clerics instead of oracles. Here is my reasoning.
1) More spells per day, more is better, no brainer.
2) You don't have to pick them in advance, and then realize you destroyed yourself when you're like, "nope... didn't need half my spells I prepared and now I'm stuck with this"
3) Sorcerers get better weapon proficiency, Oracles get cool abilities.
4) You only know the spells you need/want, while I realize that versatility is cool, when you can only cast like 1 or 2 spells of a certain level per day, you pick the best spell of the level and prepare it for all those slots, when I built an oracle I was like "this is awesome, I only know good spells instead of having a list full of things I will never want to prepare ever in my life"
Debate me and make playing a wizard, witch, cleric, or even druid sound like a good idea!
I think alot of it depends upon your GM, fellow players, and the campaign you are in.
With my current group:
The AP rarely gives out enough info that you will know what optimal spells to prepare ahead of time, so you end up going with a standard list.
The GM rarely allows enough 'safe time' during the day to fill empty slots when you do learn what you are up against.
The group rarely attempts much info gathering or spying to try and learn more than the default into gives (and we do a pretty poor job of it on those occasions when we try).
Usually seem to have a relatively large number (compared to what I read is normal) of tough encounters in a day, so the large number of spells is useful.
Wizard, cleric, witch needs more time daily making plans and deciding what will be useful. (I sometimes tend toward lazy in my hobbies and don't always want this.)
So for our group, spontaneous casters work out better.
But from talking to others and reading about other games on these forums:
Many GM's give out quite a bit more info than the AP seems to suggest.
Many GM's don't give players a hassle about filling slots that were left empty.
Most groups spend a lot more time than ours making plans, spying, and gathering info on potential foes.
Many players seem to enjoy fiddling with the details of their spell lists every day. More than me anyway.
For these situations, I agree the prepared casters do seem to be significantly more powerful and versatile.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
a cleric who enters a prohibited alignment becomes an Ex cleric, unlike an oracle
the wizard has to carry a bunch of heavy books and icky yet cumbersome pouches, unlike the sorcerer.
|
I adore Spontaneous Spellcasters over Prepared Spellcasters, too, but the sheer power of leaving spell slots empty and memorizing new spells during the day (from your !MUCH LARGER! spell list) just can't be beat.
I'm trying to get a Cleric into a RoW PbP game, and he will be my first full-on Prepared Spellcaster. I'm looking forward to trying him out.
Oh man this is going to get ugly really quick.
Going to? The mobs are already at the gates with torches and pitchforks
Another thing about the oracle that makes it superior to the cleric is that you can combo out like crazy, you take the lame curse (-10 to speed, -5 if you only move 20ft) and then take the metal mystery, use your first revelation for Dance of Blades and you get +10 to your move as long as you're holding a metal weapon. Now you have no draw back to your class and you get to take awesome stuff all day.
I will also say the times I have been running a prepared caster and we did know what was coming, they are near to unstoppable.
Know you are going to spend the day information gathering, searching, spying, and combat is extrememly unlikely? Well then you you can leave a bunch of slots open and prepare things like detect secret doors, knock, vanish, forced quiet, alter self, seek thoughts, all of the +2 mental ability spells, detect magic, identify, detect poison, detect undead, comprehend languages, charm person, hypnotism, disguise self, ventriloquism, locate object, suggestion, clairvoyance, etc... I once almost wrecked an adventure by finding out everything on the first day that we were supposed ot spend the next week finding out.
If a spontaneous caster has the same information... Well maybe he could buy some of those scrolls.
Know you are going to have a BBEG fight against a master summoner? Prepare the spells to take over or dismiss another's summoned creatures, circle vs. evil, invisibility purge, silence, various area effects to clear out the mooks while still hurting the summoner, etc... The serious fight just got almost trivial. Need a couple of shield martial characters while you take care of things.
Some of those might be spells that a spontaneous caster would take. But I have yet to see one learn the spell for take over or dismissing anothers summoned creatures.
Buy scrolls? No thank you! I can't ever imagine paying for something in the game that I get limited uses out of.
It's also my understanding that the master summoner isn't really that awesome either, you just kill him and make all his stuff go away.
I will agree that if you know exactly what's coming up the prepared spell caster can certainly become the star of the group. I think I would still prefer the adaptability of being able to go off whenever I want.
|
|
Consumables can be quite handy, though I agree that I tend not to go out of my way to buy them. If I find them, however~!
The big problem with a Spontaneous Spellcaster is that your toolbox is significantly smaller than a Prepared Spellcaster's. It's FASTER, but not nearly as versatile.
They both have theirs ups and downs. :)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Oh I get it, this is one of those troll topics right?
anyway, half elf Oracle/Sorcerer can outclass the wizard in terms of casting versatility. Yolo
It's kind of a troll topic... I would like to see if someone can persuade me that 4 spells per day (before bonus spells obviously) that you prepare in advance are better than 6 per day when you know the most useful 6-4 spells per level.
It's kind of a troll topic... I would like to see if someone can persuade me that 4 spells per day (before bonus spells obviously) that you prepare in advance are better than 6 per day when you know the most useful 6-4 spells per level.
I hope you brought an umbrella because I see a massive s*&~storm comming your way.
|
|
It's kind of a troll topic... I would like to see if someone can persuade me that 4 spells per day (before bonus spells obviously) that you prepare in advance are better than 6 per day when you know the most useful 6-4 spells per level.
Because pretty soon it's your 8 spells per day (before bonus spells) from a list of 10, vs. the guy with 6 spells per day (before bonus spells), from a list of 15-20 or more. Also learning higher spell levels a level earlier.
A Spontaneous Spellcaster needs to carefully choose which spells he wants to know, while a Prepared Spellcaster either already knows ALL of them, or can pick ones without fear that it'll be a waste. And then they can always buy more spells, too.
I'm not actively trying to make you play a prepared spellcaster, by the by, I'm just sayin'. They absolutely have their upsides.
I would spontaneously cast control weather to deal with it... but there is no way I would ever willingly learn that spell... Unless I wanted to ruin outdoor festivals or something funny like that.
For me, the line between prepared and spontaneous casters is the limit of what I am willing to do to play a spellcasting character. I frankly prefer to know a few spells very well instead of lots of spells in only the vaguest sense -- and being able to take a break while the prepared spellcasters are picking out which spells they want to prepare is the best part. I definitely prefer having a much longer time scale on which to pick my spells -- since I can only change spells when I gain a level, I get to do it between sessions rather than on the spur of the moment during a session.
All in all, playing a spontaneous caster is a great compromise between the complexity of a prepared caster and the simplicity of a non-caster.
Sorc - better incombat staying power, reuse of multiple useful spells.
Wizard - Easy access to specialized spells that can make thorny problems cakewalks, especially with downtime.
Both have good and bad points.
==Aelryinth
your standard wizard tends to specialize, plus clerics have domain slots
so it is 5 per day versus 6 per day.
a wizard can also choose a bonded object for a 6th max level spell per day or a familiar for better action economy through UMD.
a wizard also has a better casting stat
but if you can find 3-5 spells of each level that are always useful that you can enjoy spamming. the sorcerer can bridge the gap by saving time.
... you know the most useful 6-4 spells per level.
This phrase right here. There is no 4-6 most useful spells. There are 4-6 spells that you think are generally useful spells.
Whereas the wizard is trying (with varying degrees of success) to prepare what are the most effective in this situation spells.
I personally prefer spontaneous casters because they are significantly easier during the game (but more agony when leveling up). But a prepared caster with enough info or time to prepare is just... Well that is why some people use the term 'god wizard' so much.
|
One of the reasons that I lime druids so much is that, to a significant extent, they combine the best of spontaneous and prepared casters as they have the huge versatility of a prepared caster combined with the knowledge that their Summon Natures Ally spells will almost always be useful in a pinch.
They don't get as many spells as sorcerors, of course. Nor do they have the versatilty of wizards. But that spontaneous casting is VERY useful.
another MAJOR difference comes in with metamagics. (and divine prep getting a full spell list, but that's seperate.)
between taking that extra time vs a snap meta'd spell..
all in all, depends on style.
I seriously like playing prepared casters. To the point at which I've not rolled up concepts I really liked because of how much I dislike playing them. For example I'd love to play a magus, in a homebrew game one of my gm's just started it would have been a close fit but I can't get over dealing prepared casting. (Instead ended up playing a tweaked and converted DFA.) I have this huge fear of getting caught with completely the wrong spells prepared. Maybe not fear.. but I just don't like the idea at all.
I suppose I also like the fluff of characters' magic being something innate and derived from themselves rather than taught or gifted.
I'm more partial to spontaneous casters personally (I'm not a huge fan of all the book-keeping prepared needs), however I definitely understand the appeal.
As a comparison at level 7, for example, and looking at level 2 spells.
A Sorcerer can know 3 spells and will reasonably have 7 per day (6 normal + 1 from High Cha). Your favorite spells may change, but let's say: Glitterdust, Invisibility, and Scorching Ray (just got 2nd ray, so it's 8d6 if both hit).
A Wizard can know as many spells as he has room in his spellbook for and will reasonably have 5 per day (3 normal + 1 Int + 1 from Specialization). So, let's say: Glitterdust, Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Blur, False Life, Flaming Sphere, Protection from Evil, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Spectral Hand, Summon Monster II, and Web.
Yes, they need to choose well when preparing spells, but if they do so effectively, they have a lot more options for getting exactly what they need.
This thread makes me feel, things....
At 1st lvl, yea wizards are not amazing, same with 2nd and 3rd. However by now you should have enough money for magic items, especially Pearls, cuz daddy loves his pearls. While the sorcerer has shocking grasp and can use it so many times a day. A wizard has to prepare it once and between a pearl of power and his bonded item he can cast it enough to single damamge an enemy if he needs to.
A sorcerer can be prepared for some situations. A wizard can be more prepared. Due to a wizard gaining access to higher spells sooner a wizard will out power a sorcerer at the end of the day. At the beginning though the sorc. has the upper hand. Short campaigns/ early lvl campaigns sorcerer will be more fun. Mid-end lvl campaigns a wizard will be better.
I like combining both concepts with a certain feat to make something stronger than either a typical wizard or sorcerer:
Preferred Spell
With this feat you can sacrifice a prepared slot or an unprepared spell slot to spontaneously cast the chosen spell. My personal preference is fireball. It's not really another blast build as it specializes in Rime and Dazing instead of feats like Empower.
Here's my thread on the build: The "God" Fireball Wizard
Beyond just sacrificing spells you prepared but don't need, one thing I didn't really mention in that thread is that you can leave spell slots open very easily; this is a fantastic perk for wizards who have a wide variety of out of combat spells for situations that don't always come up.
If you really want to capitalize on that little trick, Fast Study helps you do it even better. 1 minute of in game time is easier to squeeze in than 15! If in enemy territory you really may not even have 15 solid minutes, so the feat is not just a time saver, but can enable otherwise impossible to prepare for situations.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do I need to post the per level spells known comparison, and spells castable comparisons again?
:)
remember that sorcerors get Memento Mori/knowstones to increase spells known, spellstones to increase spell slots, AND humans can use FC bonuses to increase Spells Known a truly impressive amount. Add in some wands and staves and versatility isn't hard to come by.
The wizard won't have that many more spells known then the Sorc unless he spends a fairly impressive amount of gold to have them.
The spell specialist and Fast Study are really helpful for the wizard, as is an arcane bond item.
===Aelryinth
I kinda do prefer to spam a few spells anyway... Launching damage endlessly seems a better choice to me than most spells.
Saying that you prefer Sorcerers over Wizards because their weapon proficiencies are better is kind of like saying you prefer Ferraris to Porches because the Ferrarri has a better designed air conditioning control.
Sometimes you need dem weapons. I'm a fan of the long spear so you got dat reach and you AoO can scare off some (maybe only a few) enemies.
an additional thing you might want to know....
1.the oracle and cleric share the same spell list.
2.the wizard and sorcerer share the same spell list.
3.wizard/cleric have more versatility, limitless spells known.
4.oracle/sorcerer have larger number of spells per day, limited spells known.
5.If the Mythic rules haven't changed too much from the playtest, you can gain abilities where you can cast your 1st-3rd level spells an unlimited number of times like 0 level spells. making many cases of wizards/clerics having too much of a limited number a day spells null and void for lower level spells (0-3).
in the end it's a choice between power and disipline.
if you choose disipline, take the wizard or cleric to have access to many spells and be wise about your choices for the day. have a spell for anything and use your specialization and domain abilities whenever you get the chance.
if you choose power, take the sorcerer or oracle and blast your foes with the large number of spells, but remember if you don't pick the right spells to know you may end up in a situation in which you don't have any spells in your repitoure that you would regret not having access to. plus your list is limited by the fact that your abilities are primed in a certain spell direction.
ex. a wizard can have one crappy day where none of his spells work right and the next day have every spell he needs and make it work properly. the sorcerer can have a large number of spells a day that outrun a wizard, but if none of the spells he knows can help him in the adventure at hand, you're in trouble.
The spell specialist and Fast Study are really helpful for the wizard, as is an arcane bond item.
don't forget cypher script to make more efficient storage in your spell book and make it cheaper and faster to learn spells.
Prepared divine casters have the potential to be more useful over a larger range of challenges than spontaneous casters.
Don't have a lot of coin but still need to explore the depths of a lake in the middle of winter? Endure elements and water breathing. Need to shore up the walls of a collapsing mine? Stone shape. Need to coordinate with faraway contacts when your plans change? Sending. Need to fight that pesky shadow demon that's been stalking you. Daylight. Hunting drow in their own caverns? Delay poison. Getting rid of stat damage? Lesser restoration.
Doing all of this in one week? Cleric. ; )
Gotta have dat Lesser Restoration.
I kinda do prefer to spam a few spells anyway... Launching damage endlessly seems a better choice to me than most spells.
Saying that you prefer Sorcerers over Wizards because their weapon proficiencies are better is kind of like saying you prefer Ferraris to Porches because the Ferrarri has a better designed air conditioning control.Sometimes you need dem weapons. I'm a fan of the long spear so you got dat reach and you AoO can scare off some (maybe only a few) enemies.
I'd say wizards have the better proficiencies.
...well, Elves have better proficiencies and Elves make good wizards, so if you're wizard who cares to have a decent weapon, be an elf!
I actually have made decent use of this: proficiency with a longbow, being a diviner foresight wizard, you get prescience, basically getting you a d20 reroll each turn, and also gravity bow. I had 18-20 dex, and 10 str. (Huzzah for generous stats) In that capacity, it was a decent backup plan to conserve spells at low levels.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I went the extra mile and turned all spellcasting into psionics-based spell points.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) More spells per day, more is better, no brainer.
2) You don't have to pick them in advance, and then realize you destroyed yourself when you're like, "nope... didn't need half my spells I prepared and now I'm stuck with this"
3) Sorcerers get better weapon proficiency, Oracles get cool abilities.
4) You only know the spells you need/want, while I realize that versatility is cool, when you can only cast like 1 or 2 spells of a certain level per day, you pick the best spell of the level and prepare it for all those slots, when I built an oracle I was like "this is awesome, I only know good spells instead of having a list full of things I will never want to prepare ever in my life"
Debate me and make playing a wizard, witch, cleric, or even druid sound like a good idea!
1. When all you have is a hammer...
2. Yes, you do pick them in advance. When you level instead of when your prepare spells. So if you find yourself stuck with a bunch of spells known that aren't helpful, you have to wait until your next retrain level instead of the next in-game day.
3. When all you have is a hammer...
If you don't like the class, it is never a good idea to play it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
1) More spells per day, more is better, no brainer.
A fifth-level wizard with 20 Int gets 6 first-level spells, 4 second-level spells, and 3 third-level spells, for a total of 13 spells per day. This number can be boosted by taking a bonded object or using pearls of power.
A fifth-level sorcerer with 20 Cha gets 8 first-level spells and 5 second-level spells, for a total of 13 spells per day. Sorcerers do not receive bonded objects without a specific bloodline and cannot use pearls of power.
2) You don't have to pick them in advance, and then realize you destroyed yourself when you're like, "nope... didn't need half my spells I prepared and now I'm stuck with this"
Pick your spells better? Also, remember that wizards can leave slots open to fill later in the day, and (with Fast Study) only need to spend 1 minute doing so.
4) You only know the spells you need/want, while I realize that versatility is cool, when you can only cast like 1 or 2 spells of a certain level per day, you pick the best spell of the level and prepare it for all those slots, when I built an oracle I was like "this is awesome, I only know good spells instead of having a list full of things I will never want to prepare ever in my life"
Did a party member get diseased? As a cleric, you can always cure them tomorrow. As an oracle, if you didn't choose Remove Disease as one of your only third-level spells known, you can't do a thing.
"I'll only ever cast like two spells ever" sounds great if you're not planning on using magic for anything other than a rigid combat routine.
So in the 8ish years that I've been playing tabletops, I have only ever twice played characters that don't spontaneously cast spells, and both of those characters ended up never casting spells (with the exception of me getting rid of a prepared spell for a "cure" spell) I can't understand why people play wizards and witches and stuff instead of sorcerers and clerics instead of oracles. Here is my reasoning.
1) More spells per day, more is better, no brainer.
False. Specialist Wizards and Clerics get bonus slots each day for a school/domain. Both classes acquire spells a level earlier which means from level 3+ they have more spells per day through most levels (because a wizard who has 2+1+1 first level spells and 1+1+1 2nd level spells has more spells than a sorcerer with 4+1 1st level spells). They both can use pearls of power/i] which they can craft themselves to not only grant themselves additional spells per day but turn themselves into pseudo-spontaneous casters (if I have 3 1st level spell slots and 1 pearl of power I can prepare 3 totally different spells and be assured that I can cast any of those and then refund one of them as needed). More spells means that they can - in their downtime - use those extra spells to craft things like scrolls and/or wands which they can then use when they need a spell they don't have prepared (my wizard for example keeps a few scrolls of [i]knock on hand in case of an emergency or a door that cannot be picked or broken. I made these scrolls during my downtime and can use them if needed and prepare something more general in my main slots).
Both clerics and wizards (as well as rangers and paladins) can leave spell slots empty and fill them with 15 minutes or preparation time (or 1 minute for a wizard with a particular wizard research). At low levels this isn't super useful, but at mid to high levels this is incredibly useful because you'll have enough spell slots to comfortably prepare your usual stuff and leave one or two open for problem solving spells (such as preparing restoration after your party got ambushed by a vampire and you didn't expect to have to heal level drain today, or suddenly needing to cast remove curse after the fighter picks up a cursed weapon in a dungeon).
2) You don't have to pick them in advance, and then realize you destroyed yourself when you're like, "nope... didn't need half my spells I prepared and now I'm stuck with this"
You have to pick sorcerer and oracle spells in advance. The catch is you don't get to change them easily. A wizard or cleric can get a number of comfortable "favorite" spells that they prepare for general purposes, but they can also as needed swap their entire spell selection out for something different. You like fireball, but your quest is going to take you to the elemental plane of fire? Prepare haste instead. Sorcerers and Oracles get no such luxury. If their spell loadout isn't suitable for the job they are just boned. This is especially true in a sandbox game where finding a wall of force blocking your way to the inner sanctum of a dungeon means leaving and coming back later when you've prepare disintegrate instead.
3) Sorcerers get better weapon proficiency, Oracles get cool abilities.
Sorcerers generally shouldn't be making a point to be in melee and their ranged weapons are no better than wizards. Oracles do get cool abilities, but so do clerics with their domains (domains come with domain powers like the ability to spontaneously be affected by freedom of movement). Clerics have better saves (though honestly I think Oracles should have +2 Fortitude like Clerics do).
4) You only know the spells you need/want, while I realize that versatility is cool, when you can only cast like 1 or 2 spells of a certain level per day, you pick the best spell of the level and prepare it for all those slots, when I built an oracle I was like "this is awesome, I only know good spells instead of having a list full of things I will never want to prepare ever in my life"
Again, sorcerers and oracles not only have fewer spells known but they also receive their spells later. When a sorcerer or oracle finally reaches their 2nd level spell the wizard or cleric matches them because they got their 2nd level spell a whole level ago and are now getting another (and they know 4+ of this level, you know 1).
Debate me and make playing a wizard, witch, cleric, or even druid sound like a good idea!
Hopefully this should get you started.
The only reason to pick sorcerers over wizards so far for me was the CHA thing and its compliance to enchantment spells as well as diplomcay etc. (Which is in fact just an evolution of my rogue and ninja characters.)
I really don´t care how good or viable that is. It let´s me have fun and i like the idea of compulsion and domination.
I would play a wizard, but at the moment i don´t see a theme that would lure me there. Except for this level 5 formula to prepare spells in 1 minute and have fasst solutions for a lot of stuff in combination with many skill points. But there needs to be more about it and i don´t like that summoning stuff at the moment so much.
Cleric vs Oracle?
Wizard vs Sorc?
Who cares. They both get 9th level spells! Its like asking whats worse... getting hit by a 9.5 earthquake or a Nuke... either way your dead.
and leaves you open for a round, while a prep caster can just cast and keep going with the meta...
Minor picking of nits.
Spontaneous casters also get a better deal form meta-magics e.g. heighten spell - because it gives the spells you have a greater ability to respond to circumstances.
Actually, since:
Prepared caster is likely to only have 1 dominate person today. (Maybe 2 if he has the right pearl or a bonded object.) So he really wants to make it most likely to succeed. Heighten it to increase the DC and there is no other penalty.
Spontaneous caster would like his dominate person to succeed, but he can cast it another 4 times if he really wants to do so. Not nearly as many opponents will succeed at 5 saves in a row. He can of course heighten the spell and doesn't have to decide until just as he is casting it. But there is the additional penalty of it taking longer to cast making him more vulnerable.
I would say the prepared caster gets the most value from meta-magic and a spontaneous caster has the easiest time using meta-magic.