Question about the rogue talents


Beginner Box

Liberty's Edge

Hi everyone, I was just wondering, on the Rogue talents section of the Beginner box player pack says that a Rogue with the Minor Magic Rogue talent can choose one Wizard Cantrip, and can cast it three times a day as if his Wizard level were equal to his Rogue level.

Now lets say I choose Read Magic, And its description on the Hero´s Handbook says That I can read magic scrolls to cast the spell writen on them.

Can a 5th level rogue use this ability to cast a 3rd level spell from a scroll, since his Minor magic Rogue talent allows him to cast as a 5th level Wizard?

I´d love to see an answer from the Paizo staff

Thanks


Unfortunately no. You cast the chosen spell as a wizard of your rogue's level. This only applies to the spell you chose, not to all spell casting.

To actually cast a spell from a scroll, you have to do two steps. First is to understand what the scroll says (which Read Magic will let you do). Next is to actually activate the scroll. As a rogue, this requires a Use Magical Device skill check against DC 20 + spell level.

So a rogue with the read magic can read the level 3 scroll, but he'll still have to roll D20 and add his UMD skill with the target DC of 23.

By the way, you can read magic with the UMD skill with a DC 25+spell level check, so while read magic is useful it uses a skill you'll have to have anyway.

Note: I haven't played Beginner's Box, so I don't know which skills or abilities or rules are included and which are excluded.

Liberty's Edge

Ok thanks, this clarify a lot, but that skill is missing from the Beginner box selection, anyone else?

Grand Lodge

I'm going to try and find the right kind of supporting material for this, but the short answer is no. Having access to Read Magic is going to let the Rogue know what the spell is, but not grant it the ability to cast the spells as a class feature of a whole other class.

Look at it this way, but taking that 1 'minor magic' ability you are able to completely eliminate an entire character class choice. Not what is intended I can assure you :)

Edit: and your subsequent question seems to confirm what I was thinking there is no UMD (Use Magic Device) skill in BB.


Not surprising, really, as that skill gets into quite a bit of advanced rules. For a light definition, it is a Charisma based skill for bards, rogues, sorcerers and it lets you use magic items that you can't normally use. Here's the trimmed down difficulty table:

Decipher a written spell (like read magic): DC = 25 + spell level
Use a scroll (after you have deciphered it): DC = 20 + caster level
Use a wand: DC = 20

There is, of course, much more complexity to it (like needing to have a necessary intelligence or wisdom high enough to qualify for the spell or making yet another UMD check to fake out that requirement) but that's not necessary for the beginner's box.

Liberty's Edge

And how could it be applied to the Beginner Box simpler rules?.

And thanks for such a quick response

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Here is the relevant text:

Beginner Box Player Pack, pg. 7 wrote:

Minor Magic

Choose one wizard cantrip. You can cast this cantrip three times
per day as if your wizard level were equal to your rogue level.
Hero's Handbook, pg. 28 wrote:

Read Magic

Range Personal Duration 10 minutes/wizard level
You can read magic scrolls and other magic writing. If you use this on a magic scroll, and the scroll has a wizard spell on it, you can cast the spell from the scroll just like it was one of your prepared spells. The Game Master has more information on magic scrolls.
Game Master's Guide, pg. 52 wrote:

Scrolls

Scrolls are spells in written form. If you are a cleric or wizard,
you can read the magic words on a scroll and cast the spell
from it as if you had prepared it as one of your daily spells.
The Major Scrolls table has scrolls marked with an asterisk (*).
These are special scrolls of spells not in the Hero’s Handbook.
See the Special Scrolls section to the right of the table for more
information on these items.
To use a scroll, you have to do the following things in order:
1) DECIPHER THE SCROLL
A scroll is a sort of magical code. You can decipher it
automatically by casting read magic. If for some reason you
can’t cast read magic or you just like doing things the hard
way, you can instead try a Spellcraft check (DC 20). If you fail
the Spellcraft check, you can’t try using Spellcraft to decipher
it again for a week.
2) BE THE RIGHT CLASS
Only clerics can cast cleric spells from scrolls. Only wizards
can cast wizard spells from scrolls. If a spell is both a cleric
spell and a wizard spell (like cause fear), both clerics and
wizards can cast it from the scroll. Remember that evoker
wizards and illusionist wizards can never cast certain spells,
even from scrolls.
3) READ THE SCROLL
Casting the spell from the scroll is a standard action, just like a
cleric or wizard casting a prepared spell. You have to be able to
see the scroll to cast from it. Just like casting a prepared spell,
you can’t cast from a scroll if an enemy is adjacent to you.
Casting a spell from a scroll destroys the scroll.

I really feel like the intent of the ability only gets you to step 1 on this process. You are able to Read Magic to understand that the scroll is a scroll of whatever. It does not give you the right background or training to complete step 2 or 3.

Perhaps a better way to phrase the talent would be:

Beginner Box Player Pack, pg. 7 wrote:

Minor Magic

Choose one Detect Magic, Mage Hand or Ray of Frost. You can cast the chosen spell three times per day as if your wizard level were equal to your rogue level.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Ramzamc wrote:

And how could it be applied to the Beginner Box simpler rules?.

And thanks for such a quick response

Well the description of the Use Magic Device skill is here.

To simplify it for the Beginner Box, you could just limit it to scrolls and wands.

So if the character has ranks in UMD (a CHA skill), it works like the normal steps for using a scroll—GameMaster Guide page 52:

1) Decipher the scroll. Works like normal.
2) UMD allows you to skip this step.
3) Use UMD to get through this step. The character needs to make a UMD check against a DC of 20 + caster level of the scroll. If she succeeds, she casts the spell from the scroll, just like a cleric or wizard would. If she fails, nothing happens and she's used her standard action that round.

For wands, the character makes a UMD check against DC 20. If she succeeds, she activates the wand, just like a cleric or wizard would. If she fails, nothing and she's used her standard action that round.

Liberty's Edge

Ok so the best is to incorporate the UMD skill into My Beginner Box game and limit it to the use of magic scrolls (the use of wands seem like too much).

Should The UMD skill, be a Rogue class skill?

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Yes, definitely a rogue class skill. :)

Liberty's Edge

That solve and simplify it all, just what I wanted :D

Thanks.

Grand Lodge

Mark Garringer wrote:

Here is the relevant text:

Beginner Box Player Pack, pg. 7 wrote:

Minor Magic

Choose one wizard cantrip. You can cast this cantrip three times
per day as if your wizard level were equal to your rogue level.

Just as an FYI to anyone else reading this thread, I did not have a hardcopy of the "BB Player Pack" in the box set that I bought. It may have been a PDF addition because it was in the "my downloads" section of my Paizo account.

Anyway, the reason I mention this is that I'm teaching my son to play PFR, his character is a Rogue, and we're having some trouble understanding the spell casting being discussed in the thread above

All my experience is from 0E and 1E ... and that was 30 years ago, so it's taking us a while to wrap our minds around the complexity of PFR.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

Keith -

The Player Pack is PDF-only (and free!), so you wouldn't have a print copy of it in your Beginner Box.

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