[Improved Familiar] Can we get another look at the lowly Mephit?

[Matthew Morris]

Good afternoon,

In perusing the Improved Familiar section, I noticed our friendly neighborhood Mephit is not on the 'improved familiar who can use wands' list. Can we get this reviewed? As far as I can see the omission is in error.

Mephits are clearly humanoid shaped, thus have hands (and for fun... are proficient in martial and simple weapons being of the outsider type)

Mephits are noted in the Bestiary as knowing common and their elemental language, and are not noted as being unable to speak, so command words are allowed.

With these two factors, I think they should be added to the wand list.

[Michael Brock]

Sure. Let me hear more reasons for and against and I will consider it.

[Matthew Morris]

Wow, that's a quick reply. :-)

Well besides the mechanics above...

They're the only humanoid creatures that can't use wands (iirc) currently.

Other outsiders which are improved familiars can.

It would look cool. (Seriously, picture an earth mephit growing to medium size with a wand of flame blade defending his buddy)

Mephits need more love.

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

• Mephits are described by Wikipedia as resembling Imps, which can use wands. Therefore Mephits should also be allowed to use wands, at least until someone edits that Wikipedia entry (and the Google cache updates because I didn't actually click through I just got that from the Google preview)..
• "Mephit" sounds like "Muppet" and you wouldn't say no to Kermit, would you?
• Mephits are adorably ugly! They're like the pugs of the elemental outsiders.
• Look at that water mephit in the Bestiary. LOOK AT HOW SAD IT LOOKS. You can't say no to a face like that, can you?

[Lab_Rat]

Hmmm...

All of the familiars that can use a wand are:
1)Gained using Improved Familiar Feat - Player has to pay in for the ability
2)Have hands the could hold and point the wand
3)Can speak
4)Described as treasure keepers and thus are found in possession of wands, even if they can't use them in their native form (i.e. bestiary stats)
5)Have spell-like abilities and are thus familiar with magical effects

[cartmanbeck]

I'll join in on this one:

Let's compare the abilities of a fire mephit with an imp and see which one is a more powerful creature:

HD: doesn't matter because you use the character's hit dice and hit points.

Natural attacks: Fire mephit gets two claw attacks and a breath weapon, imp gets only a sting. Point for fire mephit.

AC: They both have exactly the same base AC, but the Imp has a higher touch AC because of both size and Dex. Point for Imp.

DR: Fire mephit has DR 5/magic, where imp has DR 5/good or silver (which is much more restrictive). Point for imp.

Energy damage: Both are immune to fire, but the mephit is also vulnerable to cold where the Imp has immunity to poison and resist 10 to acid and cold. Point for imp.

Speed: A mephit can move a little faster on land, with a 30 ft. movement on land and 40 ft. movement in air. However, the Imp can go faster in the air (50 ft.). This one's a wash.

Spell-like abilities: Fire mephit has scorching ray 1/hour (one ray at 4d6 damage) and heat metal 1/day (1-2d4 points of damage). I don't think they're allowed to use their summon ability, but if so they can summon another fire mephit 1/day. Imps have at-will invisibility (which means they can pretty much always target flat-footed AC with damaging spells), constant detect good and magic, suggestion 1/day (DC 15), augury 1/day and commune 1/week (those last two aren't useful in combat but are still cool). You can also add the imp's change shape ability which is essentially an at-will beast shape I. Imp wins by a landslide.

Alignment: An Imp can only be taken by a LN character (since neither NE nor LE are allowed in PFS), which is a pretty strong limitation. Point for mephit.

Overall, we have 2 points for the mephit, and 4 for the imp (with the spell-like abilities probably being worth two points). The alignment restriction definitely makes an imp a bit less usable, but overall I'd say the imp is a much stronger Improved Familiar than the fire mephit, and so allowing the imp to use wands makes them even more so. Giving the fire mephit wand use will get it a bit closer in power level to the imp.

This can of course be extended to each other type of mephit, as all of them have similar levels of abilities.

I didn't even want to start with the Lyrakien, which is an even stronger Improved Familiar than the imp, and it can be taken by Chaotic Good Wizards and Sorcerers and Witches and such, which are likely to be more prevalent in PFS than LN ones.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Here's a point that I don't think has been mentioned yet. Currently there is no way for a Lawful Good Arcane Caster to have an Improved familiar who can use a wand.
There is only one option on the list that are within one step of Lawful Good: The Brownie who requires you to be Neutral not just within one step of it.

Making the Mephit (or the Elemental) a legal wand wielder will fix this problem and allow Lawful Good casters to be equal to all the other alignments of casters who can have a wand wielding assistanct as well.

[Lab_Rat]

Excellent point. I was wondering if there was an alignment issue but didn't want to do the leg work. Anyone know of a mephit in a Paizo product that uses a wand (since that was one of the reasons for giving the list of improved familiars that could)? The best I could find so far was a mephit in Legacy of Fire (Part 2) has a wand of SMII as treasure.

[asthyril]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Here's a point that I don't think has been mentioned yet. Currently there is no way for a Lawful Good Arcane Caster to have an Improved familiar who can use a wand.

There is only one option on the list that are within one step of Lawful Good: The Brownie who requires you to be Neutral not just within one step of it.

Making the Mephit (or the Elemental) a legal wand wielder will fix this problem and allow Lawful Good casters to be equal to all the other alignments of casters who can have a wand wielding assistanct as well.

Improved Familiar states that the alignment has to be within one step on each axis. so brownie is one step away on the law/chaos axis, and one step away on the good/evil axis. therefore a brownie can be a familiar for any character.

i always assumed that's why it was added as a familiar that can use item slots/wands, because anyone can choose one and get a familiar that can use a wand.

even if you want to kick him because he's an annoying brownie.

[Mathwei ap Niall]

asthyril wrote:

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Here's a point that I don't think has been mentioned yet. Currently there is no way for a Lawful Good Arcane Caster to have an Improved familiar who can use a wand.

There is only one option on the list that are within one step of Lawful Good: The Brownie who requires you to be Neutral not just within one step of it.

Making the Mephit (or the Elemental) a legal wand wielder will fix this problem and allow Lawful Good casters to be equal to all the other alignments of casters who can have a wand wielding assistanct as well.

Improved Familiar states that the alignment has to be within one step on each axis. so brownie is one step away on the law/chaos axis, and one step away on the good/evil axis. therefore a brownie can be a familiar for any character.

i always assumed that's why it was added as a familiar that can use item slots/wands, because anyone can choose one and get a familiar that can use a wand.

even if you want to kick him because he's an annoying brownie.

For normal familiars this is generally true HOWEVER the brownie entry in the beastiary specifically states the master of this familiar HAS to be Neutral aligned. Specific trumps General so no, the Brownie cannot be the familiar for a Lawful Good caster.

The Mephit and the Elemental are also True Neutral but their entries do not have that alignment restriction making them the ONLY currently possible Improved familiars for a lawful good caster that could possibly use a wand item.

[Just a Mort]

Description of Imp:

"Fiendish wings and a whipping scorpion-like tail lash behind this diminutive, red-skinned nuisance."

Description of Quasit:

"Ram horns curl back from the twisted head of this tiny winged demon, and its body is thin and wiry."

Description of Mephits:

"This small humanoid creature has thin, leathery wings, small horns, and a mischievous smile."

No where in the above two entries of Imp and Quasit do they even mention that they are humanoid, yet they are allowed to use wands and have humanoid slots. They are also evil buggers who will probably sell your soul while you aren't looking.

My loyal and faithful Steam Mephit Socks is more human by the bestiary then either of the above yet she is not allowed to use a wand nor allowed humanoid slots! I protest most violently! Mephit rights and freedom to Mephits to use wands and have all humanoid slots!

- Mort (9th Level Wizard(Universalist) of Andoran faction,on behalf of Socks)

If claws are the reason why mephits cannot use wands, quasits have claws too and use wands right fine.

If the feat tax to UMD wands for a familiar is improved familiar - why would something with an lanuage and even stated as "this small humanoid" in the bestiary be unable to use wands?

Also another point, does a water mephit have a fly speed since all mephits are supposed to have a fly speed?

[asthyril]

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

asthyril wrote:

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Here's a point that I don't think has been mentioned yet. Currently there is no way for a Lawful Good Arcane Caster to have an Improved familiar who can use a wand.

There is only one option on the list that are within one step of Lawful Good: The Brownie who requires you to be Neutral not just within one step of it.

Making the Mephit (or the Elemental) a legal wand wielder will fix this problem and allow Lawful Good casters to be equal to all the other alignments of casters who can have a wand wielding assistanct as well.

Improved Familiar states that the alignment has to be within one step on each axis. so brownie is one step away on the law/chaos axis, and one step away on the good/evil axis. therefore a brownie can be a familiar for any character.

i always assumed that's why it was added as a familiar that can use item slots/wands, because anyone can choose one and get a familiar that can use a wand.

even if you want to kick him because he's an annoying brownie.

For normal familiars this is generally true HOWEVER the brownie entry in the beastiary specifically states the master of this familiar HAS to be Neutral aligned. Specific trumps General so no, the Brownie cannot be the familiar for a Lawful Good caster.

The Mephit and the Elemental are also True Neutral but their entries do not have that alignment restriction making them the ONLY currently possible Improved familiars for a lawful good caster that could possibly use a wand item.

ah thank you i had never noticed that. i had never looked at the entry because, honestly, i would never want one as a familiar.

[SCPRedMage]

Michael Brock wrote:

Sure. Let me hear more reasons for and against and I will consider it.

Not that I have a dog in this fight (so to speak), but I'll go with:

1. Every reason to allow the familiars that can currently use wands applies to the mephit.
2. There does not appear to be any reason to specifically disallow it.

They have the anatomy to physically wield them, the ability to speak, have spell-like abilities, and require the same investment as any other wand-wielding familiar, right down to level requirement.

Seems to me that there's as good a case for using wands as any other familiar, and no case to specifically deny it to them, while allowing the current wand-users.

[samerandomhero]

I think the mephit is really neat and would like to see more of them.
The fact that there are so many versions of them is pretty cool and the different personalties they generally have is fun to add to the game.
The SLA is in my opinion not that strong by the level the mephit is gained. The wand use will strengthen the mephit leading to less of the imp/lyrakien/paladin cat prominence.
Not that these are bad, its nice to see more of the others though.

Just a Mort: The chart at the beginning of the mephit entry lists the baseline mephit. The entrys for the specific ones (air, fire, etc) list the changes that supersede.
In the water mephits case it retains the normal fly speed listed in the intial chart but also gains a swim speed.
The air focused ones get improved speed by like 30-40ft instead of another movement option.

[Mahtobedis]

Right now I think a lot of players are taking imps because an alternative familiar that can use wands is not available for them due to alignment restrictions. Any character that is not chaotic good suddenly finds that the imp is the best option for a familiar because they cannot get an Azata, and I"m assuming they don't have the boon for a faery dragon. I know that I personally have to keep reminding myself, "No do not take the imp, this character would not do. They are a worshiper of Iomedea."

As numerous people have stated in the thread mechanically there does not seem to be a reason for the mephit not to get access to wands.

Reasons which I can think of for (some of these I'm know have already been mentioned)

- They are humanoids and can speak meeting the requirements for wands
- They are accustomed to magic, I think it hard to live on an elemental plane without being accustomed to magic.
- My most important point is that allowing Mephits to wield wands would improve character diversity.

Right now certain familiars, such as the Imp, Lyrakkian, and Faery Dragon, are gods among familiars. I have yet to see a spell caster who had the option to take one of those take one. I think this in part because in addition to their incredible abilities those three familiars also have access to wands. I think allowing Mephits to use wands would open up field for other character ideas that are not dependent on having one of the super powered familiars as there would be another options for a familiar that can use wands. One which has a great elemental theme to it and already seems pretty popular.

[Mahtobedis]

Now reasons against the Mephit

They are a small sized familiar. This give the Mephit the ability to flank, which is really uncommon among familiars. The only other improved familiar I can think of off the top of my head that does that is the Cassian.

Combined with a high speed, and in some cases high maneuverability, Mephits can easily maneuver into position to get the party rogue his sneak attack. Mephits also do not provoke AoO's when delivering touch spells.

Now some people will say, and rightly so, that using the Mephit to flank will get it killed. However a simple potion of invisibility allows the Mephit to flank and in almost every circumstance also avoid getting hit.

The fact that the Mephit is small sized could be viewed as enough of an advantage to make up for the lack of wands.

Personally I do not think it does. Familiars are fragile enough that generally players invest in protecting them in combat not using them. A player who is interested in protecting their Mephit will suddenly find the small size to be a disadvantage, as it cannot share their space. Only a few specialized builds can take advantage of the small size, while many builds would be able to take advantage of more options with wands.

[Matthew Morris]

Re: Mephits and Flank

Really? I never thought of that. OF course Talyn has the Faerie Dragon boon from <redacted> and he could use a flanking buddy, but a wand using faerie dragon (or one with one of the pages of spell knowlege) can pop up 'insta-flankers' through summon monster spells, all from the comfort of (as Rey calls it) "Way the Frak over there" range.

I am amused at the idea of Kseina (my witch) with a small Mephit familiar who every morning gets his daily dose of (extended) mage armor and (extended) false life and carries a falchion. Bonus if it's an earth Mephit.

[asthyril]

i would like to point out any familiar that can use an improvised reach weapon can flank.
my faerie dragon uses the minute hand he broke off of a clock tower to hit people while yelling in his high pitched voice 'time to die!'. then he misses because even with the bab of a level 12 rogue (i have the rogue talent) he still only has +6 with it. it's funny though, and he can flank with me.

[Mergy]

Some possible counterarguments:

- mephits are available at level 5, unlike the imp, lyrakian, faerie dragon, etc. This means that allowing mephits to use slots like an imp would be leading to power creep.

Except the sprite has now been added, which is also possible to gain at level 5. The sprite has all the item slots of a level 7 familiar, and therefore the mephit is not contributing to power creep in this way.

- do we really need more spellcasters with familiars bogging down play?

The spellcasters who are going to take a familiar will just choose a different one. My wizard will be gaining an imp because he doesn't want to be chaotic good, and he doesn't want a quasit. His neutral alignment has served him well so far, and so his only optimal choice is an imp or a sprite. If my wizard was lawful good, he would have no optimal choice.

I understand the need to be exclusive with which familiars can do this, so as to eliminate all table variation on the subject. However, mephits seem to have been left by the wayside, as vaguely humanoid creatures (as humanoid as an imp or quasit) but without any of the benefits that entails.

[SCPRedMage]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

- mephits are available at level 5, unlike the imp, lyrakian, faerie dragon, etc. This means that allowing mephits to use slots like an imp would be leading to power creep.

Seeing as the PRD entry for Improved Familiar lists the level requirement for mephits at level seven, I'm pretty sure it's not really power creep on that factor, even before considering the sprite...

[Victor Zajic]

I think the most compelling evidence is that Mephits are adorable and I want to see more of them in game.

The Water Mephit is sad because he can't use wands. Won't someone please think of the Mephits?

[Michael Brock]

The cons are far outweighed by the positive feedback I have received both in this thread, and privately via email and Skype chats regarding the inclusion of mephits. Mephits have been added to the list in the FAQ.

[cartmanbeck]

Michael Brock wrote:

The cons are far outweighed by the positive feedback I have received both in this thread, and privately via email and Skype chats regarding the inclusion of mephits. Mephits have been added to the list in the FAQ.

Warning: Happiness rant ahead.

You see this, guys? This is why I love Paizo. Right here you have an example of one of the people in charge actually listening to us as players and GMs, hearing our arguments for and against a specific rule and deciding that based on that rule, things can be changed. This is why I started playing Pathfinder and never even glanced back at 3.5. This company is full of people who actually care about their user-base and want us to have fun, as long as it's not at any other player's expense. This is good. Very good.

Mike, as I've said before, you kick serious butt. Thank you for hearing us out!

[Mathwei ap Niall]

Michael Brock wrote:

The cons are far outweighed by the positive feedback I have received both in this thread, and privately via email and Skype chats regarding the inclusion of mephits. Mephits have been added to the list in the FAQ.

Woot!!

Thanks Mike, this should make a lot of people happy.

(I'm still keeping my imp anyway, I love having a Fiend as my bestest friend).

[Matthew Morris]

Thank you very much! My witch will (eventually) thank you. :-)

[Mergy]

Now my wizard has to choose an element, or stick with the imp...

[SCPRedMage]

Michael Brock wrote:

The cons are far outweighed by the positive feedback I have received both in this thread, and privately via email and Skype chats regarding the inclusion of mephits. Mephits have been added to the list in the FAQ.

Benefit: This post grants a +1 circumstance bonus to your Awesome score.

Normal: Posts add to your Time Passed score.

[Just a Mort]

I love you Brock! So does Socks and Basha(future mephit to be)!

[Nuku]

Excellent news. Always nice to see evolution heralded on both sides.