Why are players today so entitled?

[Vulnerable to Fire]

Nowadays, players always seem to think the world revolves around them. It used to be that if some orc with an axe got a lucky crit and took your head off, you sucked it up like a sir and rolled a new character. Now? They'll complain about how the game is so unfair and you get demonized as a GM - and that's even with the new change to -CON. It's like they don't want life fighting monsters to be dangerous.

If you send monsters at them that they can't beat? You're a bad GM. If the dumbass fighter overspecializes and spends five feats that only work with some obscure weapon? Apparently everyone in the world is supposed to suddenly start using that weapon and drop new ones for the fighter, otherwise you're a bad GM. As if you forced the fighter to take Greater Weapon Specialization (Whip), or as if goblins would really have a +4 whip lying around. If you make players track rations and arrows after level 1? The way players today act, you may as well have killed their dog.

The game seems to cater to this sense of entitlement. d8 hit dice for rogues? Raise Dead guaranteed to work with no XP penalty? Wealth by level? Magic loot should be special; you can't put it on a tight schedule like that. But if you deny the players the +3 armor they're totally entitled to at level 9 or whatever, somehow that makes you the bad guy. Should the game world notice that the characters have hit level 9 and spontaneously generate a large pile of cash in their bank accounts? And that's not even getting into magical healing becoming so easy to get now.

Players weren't always like this. Once upon a time, the DM was god, and the players loved it. If the random encounter table gave them an ancient red dragon, they ran away, or they died, but they didn't complain about this CR junk. Poisons were deadly, traps were deadly, combat was deadly, bringing people back from the dead wasn't a matter of routine. Life was cheap, and players didn't think they were action movie heroes entitled to kill all the baddies and save the world with their specialness. Please. Give me a break.

Nobody appreciates what a true GM goes through anymore. I spend hours creating a living, breathing world, of which the PC's are merely one small part. The world doesn't revolve around you. If you walk into a dragon's den, it doesn't spontaneously turn into a kobold because a dragon would be too hard. Traps don't magically stop existing just because you all wanted to play fighters with fifty special snowflake "feats" so nobody bothered to be a rogue. You're not special, you're not heroes, you're some average people who picked up swords, and you're not entitled to anything. That's what gives my game world verisimilitude: it's not just a game or a story, it's a real world that exists for reasons beyond mere gameplay. Whether you find save or die spells "fun" is of no consequence; magic exists, so those spells will exist, and if one kills you, man up, because that's how life works.

But for the WOW generation, the only real fun comes from maximizing your damage per attack to mow through faceless mobs, and even a mild inconvenience ruins the game forever. Face it, sometimes goblins kill people; if you can't have fun roleplaying one of them, maybe ROLEplaying games aren't for you.

My point is: when did everyone suddenly decide that the point of games was for the DM to create a cardboard world to cater to the players' warped, shallow perception of "fun"?

[Katz]

Strawmen, and WoW fallacy, all in one post. Intriguing

[Ravingdork]

First, the sense of entitlement is true of the entire generation, not just tabletop roleplayers.

Second, players have ALWAYS complained when bad things happened.

[SwnyNerdgasm]

I think it goes both ways, sure players can get entitled, but a lot of "Old School" DM's and get entitled too. So you spent hours crafting a realistic fantasy world for me and my fellow players to adventure in, because your running the show, we don't get to make OUR characters the way we want them, but must instead kow-tow to what you think we should have? I'm sorry, I'm all for "realism" but this is a fantasy roleplaying game, there really should be a sense of escapism for the players that you seem to be missing. I don't want to play some scrubby farmer with a rusty shortsword, I want to be the hero of the story.

It basically boils down to something I told my cousin when he first tried his hands at running a campaign, "Your world, their story" sure you can craft a world down to the most minor detail, but if we players don't get to enjoy the limelight why should we even leave our farms?

Players and Gamemasters should work together to make sure they are both having fun, maybe you should give a little in allowing things to the players.

[Vulnerable to Fire]

It's not strawmen. Every single thing I listed is a thing players complain about. Hell, the last time a paladin in my game fell, his player stormed out of the room. That's what happens when your paladin starts executing (unarmed, helpless) prisoners instead of being a proper paladin.

[Seranov]

I am in no way up to the task of completely rewriting your post from the perspective of a player right now.

Pretend I did.

[Vulnerable to Fire]

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm all for "realism" but this is a fantasy roleplaying game, there really should be a sense of escapism for the players that you seem to be missing. I don't want to play some scrubby farmer with a rusty shortsword, I want to be the hero of the story.

Thank you for proving my point. Players today want to sacrifice verisimilitude in favor of totally owning all the demons.

[Marthian]

you have awful players then.

This doesn't even pop up here in this region often.

Spoiler:

Although I am probably not one to talk, I did get upset because I got confused whether I had my weapon or not, and it ended up almost getting stolen on top of our party almost had a TPK (I hate black tentacles so stinking much...) As far as I know, if it was a home game, at least I'd get to reclaim my weapon (probably in a different off-session), but it was PFS, so I was under the impression that I would not get such a chance (made worse by it was at a convention.)

On the other hand, things did go south when someone roleplayed their character REALLY well... To the point it annoyed me and someone (they left because of it, so we were down a party member.) Actually probably my least favorite PFS session. Not the GM's fault.

[Vulnerable to Fire]

Ravingdork wrote:

First, the sense of entitlement is true of the entire generation, not just tabletop roleplayers.

Almost certainly true. I am fortunate enough to be able to avoid contact with the younger generation outside of gaming.

Ravingdork wrote:

Second, players have ALWAYS complained when bad things happened.

Not to the same degree. The culture has shifted, and for the worse.

[Rynjin]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm all for "realism" but this is a fantasy roleplaying game, there really should be a sense of escapism for the players that you seem to be missing. I don't want to play some scrubby farmer with a rusty shortsword, I want to be the hero of the story.

Thank you for proving my point. Players today want to sacrifice verisimilitude in favor of totally owning all the demons.

Who gives a f+!* about "verisimilitude" in a game with where demons exist in the first place?

If you want a realistic game, go play "Farmland and Turnips" not Pathfinder.

In the meantime, I'll be having fun in a game where I can be a guy who can shoot lightning bolts from his fingertips.

[Stome]

/facepalm.

The game is not and never should be player vs DM. Wealth by level is a guideline not a hard rule but it still has a very good reason for being there. Because the Cr system assumes a rough level of power from items. While it is far from perfect it is a GAME system and must be built on numbers and logic. For the system not to take equipment into account would be nothing short of stupid.

As for the rest of it. The GAME system is in fact built around the idea that more often then not the PCs will win. And really it is built around the PCs and DM being the center of it. You see I said both there, not one or the other. You are in no way more important then your players nor is your fun more valid then there's.

In the end it is a GAME, It is made for enjoyment. It is designed from the ground up with that in mind.

Your post is full of frankly bs assumptions and fallacies out the ears. A player wanting to upgrade his sword has nothing to do with WoW, An adventure wanting to do all he can to stay alive (by being optimal as they can be.) is not doing it wrong. Anyone that faces danage would be an idiot not to.

[danielc]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

My point is: when did everyone suddenly decide that the point of games was for the DM to create a cardboard world to cater to the players' warped, shallow perception of "fun"?

I don't think it has changed that much. Many of the same issues I see people cry about now on the forums I saw on the old news-groups back in the 80's. Mean DM's. Uncooperative players. Role vs Roll. Monty Hall Dungeons (too much magic). Too many character classes. etc etc etc

I think what has changed is here on the internet you can find forums like this one where people come to vent and other overreact and you end up with a conversation that has two extreme sides and no one can discuss the more realistic middle ground.

Yes, MMOs have had some impact, but not as much as the old guard wants to make it out to be. many of the old grognards I talk to look back at the "old days" with rose colored glasses. The old "who rules at the table" debate has been here sense the late 70's. I remember a seminar at one of the local conventions here in Los Angeles where the subject was something like "How much control is to much control" and they focused on how to be a fair DM when dealing with players.

So yes, here on the forum I can find people saying their GMs are too mean. I can find people who say their players are too soft or too demanding. But as I go to conventions and game stores I find the same issues there has always been.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[Marthian]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm all for "realism" but this is a fantasy roleplaying game, there really should be a sense of escapism for the players that you seem to be missing. I don't want to play some scrubby farmer with a rusty shortsword, I want to be the hero of the story.

Thank you for proving my point. Players today want to sacrifice verisimilitude in favor of totally owning all the demons.

And if everyone's having fun, why change it? I'm not a big fan of being forced to play a character long term. A pre-gen's ok, but I don't think it's really fun for anyone to be forced to play a character they don't like or enjoy.

Game groups vary... A lot. One group likes dungeon delving, another likes realism, some like roleplay-heavy, others like adventure paths. And if you aren't having fun, let someone know.

[kyrt-ryder]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

If you send monsters at them that they can't beat? You're a bad GM. If the dumbass fighter overspecializes and spends five feats that only work with some obscure weapon? Apparently everyone in the world is supposed to suddenly start using that weapon and drop new ones for the fighter, otherwise you're a bad GM. As if you forced the fighter to take Greater Weapon Specialization (Whip), or as if goblins would really have a +4 whip lying around.

You know you could always make magic weapon smiths available to the PC's, that would solve a lot of problems.

Rather than some wacked out world where there's a ton of magic items lying around in the hands of the bad guys but somehow adventurers can't commission them at a fair price.

EDIT: Oh wait, you're against wealth by level too. I should probably get out of this thread before it gets too hot to handle.

[Seranov]

For the record:

The moment you decided "I know, let's go make a thread on a public forum to complain about something I don't like, specifically the behavior of some of my players!" you should have stopped, thought about it, and then realized why exactly you were doing it.

I hope they find this thread, and wander off to find a DM who actually fits their playstyle, instead of one who would rather dictate to them how the game should be played.

I will debate your grognardness later, but for now, I'm going to sleep.

[SwnyNerdgasm]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

I'm sorry, I'm all for "realism" but this is a fantasy roleplaying game, there really should be a sense of escapism for the players that you seem to be missing. I don't want to play some scrubby farmer with a rusty shortsword, I want to be the hero of the story.

Thank you for proving my point. Players today want to sacrifice verisimilitude in favor of totally owning all the demons.

I don't want to sacrifice it totally, but I would like to point out one thing you said.

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

You're not special, you're not heroes, you're some average people who picked up swords

Why would anyone want to be Jimmy Olsen, when the game is clearly about the players being Superman? Hey I've got no problem with a realistic dark and gritty campaign, as long as I know it going into it, but if i'm told to make a character for a heroic high fantasy campaign and then the first session the DM says, "Okay guys we're gonna be running what basically amounts to a reskinned Black Company style AP with little to no magic" I think it would be fair to say I'd feel a bit blind-sided.

Maybe the issue is you have one idea for a campaign and you players have another, it happens, I happen to inject tons of horror elements into almost any campaign I run, but if my players aren't fans of horror then they should speak up and let me know. That way we can open up a bit of dialogue between us and both sides of the screen can have fun, after all that's what a role-playing game is all about

[Rynjin]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

If you send monsters at them that they can't beat? You're a bad GM. If the dumbass fighter overspecializes and spends five feats that only work with some obscure weapon? Apparently everyone in the world is supposed to suddenly start using that weapon and drop new ones for the fighter, otherwise you're a bad GM. As if you forced the fighter to take Greater Weapon Specialization (Whip), or as if goblins would really have a +4 whip lying around.

You know you could always make magic weapon smiths available to the PC's, that would solve a lot of problems.

Rather than some wacked out world where there's a ton of magic items lying around in the hands of the bad guys but somehow adventurers can't commission them at a fair price.

EDIT: Oh wait, you're against wealth by level too. I should probably get out of this thread before it gets too hot to handle.

Stay, you'll wanna be here when this fireballs out of control.

"Vulnerable to Fire" pretty much sums up this entire thread.

Betcha $5 he's shallowsoul's alt.

There's a 90% chance he's SOMEONE'S alt since I doubt anyone would create an account just to post this thread if they weren't already a regular browser of the forum.

[Vulnerable to Fire]

kyrt-ryder wrote:

You know you could always make magic weapon smiths available to the PC's, that would solve a lot of problems.

Rather than some wacked out world where there's a ton of magic items lying around in the hands of the bad guys but somehow adventurers can't commission them at a fair price.

Oh good, let's remove all the wonder from the world and have everyone purchase magic items in a shop like rations. That sounds like an amazing fantasy world full of wonder and excitement.

[Vulnerable to Fire]

Marthian wrote:

And if everyone's having fun, why change it?

If everyone stopped reading Shakespeare and started reading Twilight, that would still be bad no matter how much they like Twilight.

[SwnyNerdgasm]

danielc wrote:

Monty Hall Dungeons

I haven't heard that term in a while, I think I'm getting old

[Mikaze]

Expected someone to take a shot at WoW before opening the thread.

Like freaking clockwork.

Now we just need a complaint about how "anime the art is" to complete the set.

(complaining about rogues having hit die as high as d8?!)

[Rynjin]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

You know you could always make magic weapon smiths available to the PC's, that would solve a lot of problems.

Rather than some wacked out world where there's a ton of magic items lying around in the hands of the bad guys but somehow adventurers can't commission them at a fair price.

Oh good, let's remove all the wonder from the world and have everyone purchase magic items in a shop like rations. That sounds like an amazing fantasy world full of wonder and excitement.

So which is it?

Do you want a "realistic" world or do you want one full of wonder and excitement?

You jump down somebody's throat when they say they don't want to be a commoner with a rusty short sword, and yet you want a world of "wonder and excitement"? At least be consistent or this won't be any fun.

[SwnyNerdgasm]

Mikaze wrote:

Expected someone to take a shot at WoW before opening the thread.

Like freaking clockwork.

Now we just need a complaint about how "anime the art is" to complete the set.

(complaining about rogues having hit die as high as d8?!)

G&&-D##NED JAPANIMATION CRAPTASTIC ART!!!

[Mikaze]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

true GM

>:(

[kyrt-ryder]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

You know you could always make magic weapon smiths available to the PC's, that would solve a lot of problems.

Rather than some wacked out world where there's a ton of magic items lying around in the hands of the bad guys but somehow adventurers can't commission them at a fair price.

Oh good, let's remove all the wonder from the world and have everyone purchase magic items in a shop like rations. That sounds like an amazing fantasy world full of wonder and excitement.

Since I was invited to stay, I think I'll go ahead and reply.

For your information, flamebait (wonderful name by the way, it suits you) I happen to ENJOY a wonderful world filled with difficulties, trials, and challenges that aren't lined up in a neat little row for adventurers to chop down in order of rising power.

You know what else? Some of the most fun I have in the game is in tracking the minutia, in roleplaying hunting/gathering to feed my character on survival checks (or possibly normal combat rolls complete with perception vs stealth and attacks vs AC against whatever prey might turn up in the environment.)

However, I'm of the opinion that some weird, random, uncreative world where all production and development stops (DM-Hammer time) and there's all this random magical backlog of b++*$@+* from some hazy 'past magical era' is a load of bunk.

If you want magical equipment in your world, somebody is making it. Otherwise it ceases to exist.

Deal with it dog.

[Stome]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

You know you could always make magic weapon smiths available to the PC's, that would solve a lot of problems.

Rather than some wacked out world where there's a ton of magic items lying around in the hands of the bad guys but somehow adventurers can't commission them at a fair price.

Oh good, let's remove all the wonder from the world and have everyone purchase magic items in a shop like rations. That sounds like an amazing fantasy world full of wonder and excitement.

See and your snide little comment here is based on a false assumption. "Magic is a wonder". If that's what you want then this isn't the game for you. More then half of PC classes have magic and if you count SU abilities (which are magic.) then close to all do. Magic is not rare to anyone but commoners and PCs are not commoners.

[DJEternalDarkness]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

It's not strawmen. Every single thing I listed is a thing players complain about. Hell, the last time a paladin in my game fell, his player stormed out of the room. That's what happens when your paladin starts executing (unarmed, helpless) prisoners instead of being a proper paladin.

If you have someone who can't figure out that killed prisoners is bad he shouldn't be playing a paladin in the first place.

[SwnyNerdgasm]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

Marthian wrote:

And if everyone's having fun, why change it?

If everyone stopped reading Shakespeare and started reading Twilight, that would still be bad no matter how much they like Twilight.

At least they're reading, and I'm sure that even people who read and enjoy Twilight will sooner or later move on to better books, look at me, I actually have a ton of Laurell K. Hamilton books, even after they basically became porn but I read other better things too, hell, she's the author who got me into urban fantasy.

[Rynjin]

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

Marthian wrote:

And if everyone's having fun, why change it?

If everyone stopped reading Shakespeare and started reading Twilight, that would still be bad no matter how much they like Twilight.

At least they're reading, and I'm sure that even people who read and enjoy Twilight will sooner or later move on to better books, look at me, I actually have a ton of Laurell K. Hamilton books, even after they basically became porn but I read other better things too, hell, she's the author who got me into urban fantasy.

Wait stop hold the phone...Laurell K. Hamilton books weren't always porn?

[Vulnerable to Fire]

Stome wrote:

See and your snide little comment here is based on a false assumption. "Magic is a wonder". If that's what you want then this isn't the game for you. More then half of PC classes have magic and if you count SU abilities (which are magic.) then close to all do. Magic is not rare to anyone but commoners and PCs are not commoners.

I can't think of anything that proves my point better than the fact that players now want to take the magic out of... magic.

[kyrt-ryder]

DJEternalDarkness wrote:

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

It's not strawmen. Every single thing I listed is a thing players complain about. Hell, the last time a paladin in my game fell, his player stormed out of the room. That's what happens when your paladin starts executing (unarmed, helpless) prisoners instead of being a proper paladin.

If you have someone who can't figure out that killed prisoners is bad he shouldn't be playing a paladin in the first place.

But they were evil prisoners. Look at what happens when comic book heroes leave evil prisoners alive.

[SwnyNerdgasm]

Rynjin wrote:

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

Marthian wrote:

And if everyone's having fun, why change it?

If everyone stopped reading Shakespeare and started reading Twilight, that would still be bad no matter how much they like Twilight.

At least they're reading, and I'm sure that even people who read and enjoy Twilight will sooner or later move on to better books, look at me, I actually have a ton of Laurell K. Hamilton books, even after they basically became porn but I read other better things too, hell, she's the author who got me into urban fantasy.

Wait stop hold the phone...Laurell K. Hamilton books weren't always porn?

Not to create a thread derailment, because I honestly want to see where this is gonna go, but they were actually an interestingly built world for me up until Anita finally slept with Jean-Claude, after that every book needed like 10 pages of erotica to every 5 pages of plot

[Rynjin]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

Stome wrote:

See and your snide little comment here is based on a false assumption. "Magic is a wonder". If that's what you want then this isn't the game for you. More then half of PC classes have magic and if you count SU abilities (which are magic.) then close to all do. Magic is not rare to anyone but commoners and PCs are not commoners.

I can't think of anything that proves my point better than the fact that players now want to take the magic out of... magic.

Please explain this.

Because I'm not sure how "3/4 of all classes have magic" translates to "Goldurn players are muckin' about with makin' magic common!".

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

Not to create a thread derailment, because I honestly want to see where this is gonna go, but they were actually an interestingly built world for me up until Anita finally slept with Jean-Claude, after that every book needed like 10 pages of erotica to every 5 pages of plot

Ah. My first (and only) experience with LKH was with " A Kiss of Shadows", somethin' about Fey, lots of sex.

[kyrt-ryder]

Rynjin wrote:

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

Stome wrote:

See and your snide little comment here is based on a false assumption. "Magic is a wonder". If that's what you want then this isn't the game for you. More then half of PC classes have magic and if you count SU abilities (which are magic.) then close to all do. Magic is not rare to anyone but commoners and PCs are not commoners.

I can't think of anything that proves my point better than the fact that players now want to take the magic out of... magic.

Please explain this.

Because I'm not sure how "3/4 of all classes have magic" translates to "Goldurn players are muckin' about with makin' magic common!".

I guess he doesn't understand that magic IS common. In every party at least half the people there are usually going to have direct access to magical power, possibly the entire party.

[SwnyNerdgasm]

Rynjin wrote:

SwnyNerdgasm wrote:

Not to create a thread derailment, because I honestly want to see where this is gonna go, but they were actually an interestingly built world for me up until Anita finally slept with Jean-Claude, after that every book needed like 10 pages of erotica to every 5 pages of plot

Ah. My first (and only) experience with LKH was with " A Kiss of Shadows", somethin' about Fey, lots of sex.

Yeah her Merry Gentry series was well after she devolved into smut, but I would reccomend giving at least the first two or three Anita Blake series a read, like I said they have an interesting take on the fact that vampires are "out of the coffin" so to speak and just recently(in the first book at least) have gained the right to vote.

[magnuskn]

GET OFF MY LAWN YOU YOUNG WHIPPERSNAPPERS! YEE-HAAWWWW!

That being said, having that Paladin fall was the right call.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, lessee, counting Supernatural Abilities, there are what, 6 classes with no magic whatsoever?

Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, and Barbarian?

And of those classes, two are the same class pretty much (Cavalier and Samurai) and one MIGHT AS WELL be magic since he can karate chop spells in half whenever he feels like it and other such things.

[R_Chance]

Gentlemen, check the OPs profile. 7 posts all in this thread, nothing else there. The name? Vulnerable to Fire... need I say more? It starts with a "T".

[Stome]

Vulnerable to Fire wrote:

Stome wrote:

See and your snide little comment here is based on a false assumption. "Magic is a wonder". If that's what you want then this isn't the game for you. More then half of PC classes have magic and if you count SU abilities (which are magic.) then close to all do. Magic is not rare to anyone but commoners and PCs are not commoners.

I can't think of anything that proves my point better than the fact that players now want to take the magic out of... magic.

Seeing as magic is in fact not real... I will give you a sec to get over the shock.... ready? Good. Since it is not real and is fantasy there is no way to take the magic out of magic. Magic is what the writer wants it to be. In this system it is what the Devs made it. You opinion of what it "should" be is irrelevant.

[kyrt-ryder]

Barbarian and Rogue both have access to some supernatural talents last I checked (Barbarian at least, I think I remember Rogue as well.)

[Weirdo]

Making a magic weapon smith available to the PCs is not the same thing as having abundant magic item shops. In fact, if you do your weaponsmiths right they can add to the wonder and excitement - in a previous campaign we found an old barbarian hero-smith who was one of the few living people with the skills necessary to reforge a particular magic armour, and he and two PCs spent several days at the task.

[Rynjin]

R_Chance wrote:

Gentlemen, check the OPs profile. 7 posts all in this thread, nothing else there. The name? Vulnerable to Fire... need I say more? It starts with a "T".

"Talkative"?

=p

And yeah I forgot Barbarian gets some Su abilities and Rogue can get some Ninja Tricks. So there are only 4 non-magical classes, Fighter, Gunslinger, Cavalier, and Samurai, only 3 if you count Cavalier/Samurai as one class.

[Atarlost]

If you want magic to be wondrous find yourself a RPG system where there is no class called "magic user" or "wizard" or "mage" or "witch" or "spiritualist" or "thaumaturge" or a skill accessible to players called "Magic" or "sorcery" or "spiritualism" or "thaumaturgy" or anything linguistically related to any of the above.

[Stome]

Rynjin wrote:

Yeah, lessee, counting Supernatural Abilities, there are what, 6 classes with no magic whatsoever?

Fighter, Rogue, Cavalier, Samurai, Gunslinger, and Barbarian?

And of those classes, two are the same class pretty much (Cavalier and Samurai) and one MIGHT AS WELL be magic since he can karate chop spells in half whenever he feels like it and other such things.

This is a bit off I know for a fact a number of rage powers are SU and while I am not as familiar with rogues I think its likely some talents are as well. So that just leaves fighter and Cav/Sam amnd I would not be shocked if some of the order abilities are SU.

-EDIT- Ninja'd

[SwnyNerdgasm]

R_Chance wrote:

Gentlemen, check the OPs profile. 7 posts all in this thread, nothing else there. The name? Vulnerable to Fire... need I say more? It starts with a "T".

Yeah but I got nothing better to do while I'm stuck at work...

[kyrt-ryder]

Well-said Weirdo.

Truth be told, nothing breaks my verisimilitude more than the concept of 'item drops.' Seriously? Is this a videogame we're playing or is it a fantasy world?

The powerful stuff isn't going to be lying around in the hands of random kills, its going to be the things that are crafted in the current era for the current crop of rising legends.

Or better yet! It will grow WITH those characters, obtaining its magical power because of the adventures rather than being 'magicked' during some hokey ritual.

[Gorbacz]

Folks, stop feeding the troll.

[kyrt-ryder]

But it's so cute and funny and OHGODMYARMGIVEMEBACKMYAAAAAARRRRM

[kmal2t]

IF you believe that things like WoW and 4e haven't had a meaningful impact on PnP RPGs then I have a '76 Pinto I'd love to sell you. Mint condition.

Has it changed EVERY player? No. But I've seen enough examples of the things people have said on here and games I've seen in person to know it's not just people trolling or anecdotal incidents. Players now are beginning to feel like they should have much more control over their characters than they ever used to have.

[kyrt-ryder]

Why would it be a bad thing for a player to have control over their character? That's their avatar in the DM's world, its their link, their identity in the game.

If a player can't control their character, it's less like they're playing at all and more like they're puppets dancing on the DM's strings (which is even worse than riding rails.)