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What's more, the point is that Rogue works...not Knife Master.
Good point. My submission is not much like a standard fantasy setting rogue. Perhaps I missed the point of the thread in my hopes for good critique of my build.
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I'm gonna say about 32 average AC for a CR 15.
The outsiders will average probably 30 or so but then you hit the dragons and their AC starts spiking into the 35-37 range.
All in all your character will have about a 50% miss chance on their first iteratives.
I disagree thoroughly. He's not built to run solo. You may even notice he has a teamwork feat. I assume he works with a party...and so that's *how* he works. He flanks. He's probably running with buffs from other party members. Rogues are not front-line fighters, so how they do solo shouldn't even be a part of the mix.
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It definitely can screw you. But...it doesn't always. I've always loved THF...No offense I'm gonna say this guy won't work. Before deadly sneak, but after flanking your first iteratives are going to have a 60% chance to hit.
Your take on speed is way out there. Does it stack with haste then? You can haste and use the haste for your mainhand and make the offhand use speed and claim pretty much the same thing you're doing here. Speed doesn't stack with itself. Only one weapon will get an extra attack.
You're gonna be screwed against anything with DR and you're gonna have horrible to hit in the first place. Sorry man, any campaign I've seen, this would be horribly, horribly ineffective.
Wrong. Flanking...with the guy who he normally works with means he hits 70% on your AC 32...though 30 is more common...and that's without buffs....and that's against single creature encounters...which are also not the average encounter. If there are 2-3 creatures in an encounter, start looking at ACs more like 28...26...with 6-8? 24...
No, haste doesn't stack with a weapon of speed. That's pretty well known. If you really don't think they stack, that's fine, don't count it. He was getting light on gold, that means he can get something else.
I've seen characters with bonuses like this...in campaigns...hit like crazy...because they aren't running solo. They're a part of a party.
eldonG so basically build as if you were going to play alone
oh but take into account any buffs any other class can ever put on you even though you will be alone
either that it or it is just going to be you talking to your best friend mr. potion bottle
although playing alongside a potion bottle might be better than playing with thread people in an alone game that is made to be played not alone
eldonG just understand that building in a thread with thread people is like one of those dreams where you have like six blankets in a snow storm but there are like seven people and oh god someone is going to die because there are not enough blankets no matter how you try to distribute them and oh please no it is so cold and if I die first then you can eat me I promise
only instead of freezing to death you just have to read things that make you feel bad about your enjoyable hobby
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Wrong. Flanking...with the guy who he normally works with means he hits 70% on your AC 32...though 30 is more common...and that's without buffs....and that's against single creature encounters...which are also not the average encounter. If there are 2-3 creatures in an encounter, start looking at ACs more like 28...26...with 6-8? 24...No, haste doesn't stack with a weapon of speed. That's pretty well known. If you really don't think they stack, that's fine, don't count it. He was getting light on gold, that means he can get something else.
I've seen characters with bonuses like this...in campaigns...hit like crazy...because they aren't running solo. They're a part of a party.
I just went through 1/3 of the CR 15's in the bestiary. 32 is about average with top tiers being at 35-37 and the bottom of the bucket being at 29.
you'll boost to 70%, before deadly sneak. Why would you have lower CR creatures than 15? 1 15 is easy for a party of this level. An average party should be facing 3-4 of them. The CR's you're suggesting you're facing are mook level. Anything CR appropriate you're going to have difficulty damaging and is going to splatter you along the wall.
Edit: And how are you going to convince your fighter to take the freaking flanking feat? Seriously I've never even considered it on my fighters. The other person has to take it for it to be used at all.
It's apparent that you don't play things like APs, or standard adventures...and cooperation in the parties you play in is minimal. Ok, whatever, he fails hard for your style of play. Believe it or not, we don't all play like that.
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eldonG so basically build as if you were going to play alone
oh but take into account any buffs any other class can ever put on you even though you will be alone
either that it or it is just going to be you talking to your best friend mr. potion bottle
although playing alongside a potion bottle might be better than playing with thread people in an alone game that is made to be played not alone
eldonG just understand that building in a thread with thread people is like one of those dreams where you have like six blankets in a snow storm but there are like seven people and oh god someone is going to die because there are not enough blankets no matter how you try to distribute them and oh please no it is so cold and if I die first then you can eat me I promise
only instead of freezing to death you just have to read things that make you feel bad about your enjoyable hobby
lol...Lamontius, your posts are always a blast. :p
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a 15th level twf rogue should be attacking more or less for
+11 (BAB) + (7 dex) + 1 (weapon focus) +1 (Ioun stone) +4 (weapon) -2 (TWF)) = +24*/+22/+17/+17/+12
(* with duelis´t vembraces)It seems pretty low to me, for that reason powerful/deadly snake is a trap.
You see, I disagree that there's a 'should', any sort of absolute. Oh...and if you've ever needed to do damage, and dropped a handful of dice, just to see half of them come up ones...Powerful and Deadly Sneak aren't that bad.
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You see, I disagree that there's a 'should', any sort of absolute. Oh...and if you've ever needed to do damage, and dropped a handful of dice, just to see half of them come up ones...Powerful and Deadly Sneak aren't that bad.a 15th level twf rogue should be attacking more or less for
+11 (BAB) + (7 dex) + 1 (weapon focus) +1 (Ioun stone) +4 (weapon) -2 (TWF)) = +24*/+22/+17/+17/+12
(* with duelis´t vembraces)It seems pretty low to me, for that reason powerful/deadly snake is a trap.
"should" have to be taken in it contest. I meant, a roguet hat want to do some good damage should have ...", If you are not really worried about the damage your Pc do then all is fine.
Ps: a lot of ones in the dice are better than a miss, IMHO.
Agreed...and if it's ruled that both speed weapons wouldn't work together...Gloves of Dueling would be his purchase...I'm assuming that UMD would make them work.
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It's apparent that you don't play things like APs, or standard adventures...and cooperation in the parties you play in is minimal. Ok, whatever, he fails hard for your style of play. Believe it or not, we don't all play like that.You mean where the monsters think intelligently and there's a moderate amount of difficulty in the game?
No we have buffs and we design our characters to work together. But frankly I don't think we've even accepted the rogue into one of our home games in nearly 3 years now. He really isn't up to snuff to playing with a well built barbarian, god wizard, paladin, or even bard. He doesn't compare to druids, or pretty much anyone tier one. He's not even really tier 2 as far as classes go.
You've got a level 15 character there with a to hit that should be around level 12 for a martial. You've got the AC of a level 12 martial. You've got less Hp than a level 12 martial. Yet you're 15 and attempting to go into melee. You have no way to ensure that you can get full attacks off unless you're going into melee with someone whose likely going to be full attacking back.
2 of your saves are beneath 10, the 2 most important ones, after items at level 15. You're a squishy, with horrible saves, mediocre damage, and no way to actually support the team.
Most of your skills will easily be covered by other teammates or are defensive skills for the most part. You of course have UMD which is a plus side but anyone can get that and be as useful as you are with it.
You have yet to make a single argument for why I'm wrong on a single one of these points.
He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.
Hate to get in the way of you guys having fun poking each other, but I was wondering what AC I should use to calculate DPR for the guy I posted. Is it 10+level+4 for average AC? 23 AC seems a little low to me for level 9.
Would it be that horrible to just give the class Full BAB and d10 HD?
Would that even help?
Thanks Nicos (and others).
The spreadsheet I have puts my guy at 74.8 DPR on a full attack, with 48.4 DPR with a single attack. Scout Archetype means he can pretty much always get Sneak Attack on the first attack, but I think it's assuming SA on any iterative attacks as well.
________________Full____Single
DPR Average_____74.80___48.40
Attack +1_______8.80____4.40
Damage +1_______0.94____0.61
Extra Attack:___48.40
The problem seems to be that we need to define what a Rogue is supposed to be able to do, and then arrange for him/her to do it well. My very first characters in D&D were Rogues (Pixie rogue IIRC...Yes Pixie was a choice back then. This was before AD&D came out, back in first edition). A Rogue isn't a damage dealer...that's left for the fighter types. A Rogue is a scout, trapsmith and sneak attacker. Beyond that, they utilise anything available to improve things, from Alchemical weapons to tripping and disarming. They are a Jack-of-all-trades picking up a smattering of this and a bit of that, full of useful bits of knowledge and skills that may come in handy some day. This is probably why they multiclass so well.
To reflect this, the Rogue should have a number of areas that he can get training in to reflect his eclectic nature. They also have to be able to stackable so that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. My suggestion would be to divide these up into different ares of interest that the rogue has trained in, Some of them would be ways of improving his skill choices, some of them would not be available outside of the skill choice. This is similar to the Rogue talent sytem, but would consist of fewer "talents" with wider applications. Each Rogue would take 2 or 3 areas. Suggested areas of expertise:
Sneak. This would give the Rogue the archetypal sneak attack. If you don't choose this are you don't get it (not sure on this one - how important is sneak attack to our concept of Rogue? Feedback would be helpful)
Trapsmith. gain skill bonuses on trapfinding, disable device. get re-rolls in the event of critical failure and/or be able to take 10
Alchemy: can throw alchemical weapons (Alchemists fire, tanglefoot bags, smokesticks, etc.) for greater effect. Can create improved versions of them (at higher levels). get Brew potion
Anarchist: Get the Bombs capability that Alchemist class has (perhaps at lower level)
Magic dabbler: Gain Wizard Spells as Wizard of 1/2 your level (starting level 2) up to level 16 (4th level spells). Gain scribe scroll as a bonus feat (this may be too powerful...would have to playtest)
Acrobat: Maneouvres are not subject to AoO unless you fail. Bonuses on Acrobatics, gain ledgewalking and fast sneak, Improved Disarm as a bonus feat?
Poison: Gain knowledge of poisons, bonuses to saves, ability to apply to weapons quickly and safely etc. (Not sure...is this stepping on the toes of Assassin PrC?)
Two-Weapon Fighter. Just like the Ranger (Perhaps with opportunist thrown in?). Stacks nicely with sneak.
Duelist. Gain Int Bonus to Ac except when flat-footed. Perhaps some bonus with rapier or able to use off hand for distracting attacks.
Archer. Feats as ranger. Perhaps with ranged sneak attack bonuses.
Dodger. Fast speed, Higher ac, some kind of "spider sense" that prevents them being surprised.
Artificier: Loves crafting magic. Gain craft wondrous item as a bonus feat. Gain bonuses on UMD. Able to "tinker" with magic items to change their bonuses on the fly (perhaps temporarily).
Trapbuilder. Can create simple traps from a portable trapbuilding kit. trapbuilding capabilities scale with level, but as this is situational should be significant.
Those are my thoughts so far. This covers a number of possibilities of what a rogue might be/do. Sneak attack becomes just one possibility among many to let the class be more customisable. Some of these you will find a number of people saying "but such and such can do that better" to which you can say "yeah but can they do xxx as well?".
The class would cover everything from a magic dabblling duelist to a sneak attacking trapbuilder, or an anarchist with alchemy. Some thought would need to be taken to ensure these options are balanced and viable, but I am sure that can be done with a little playtesting.
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He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.Then why don't you explain what he does because I can't see it.
He's not:
- Damaging enough to be a damage dealer
- Tanky enough to even tank through damage for another
- better at any skills than a person who could cast spells would be
- able to shape the layout of a battlefield and change the course of battles since he can't do damage
- Capable of being a good face person outside of combat
You claim rogues aren't martials. They're certainly not damage dealers I'll agree. But they're not that great at skills in comparison to other skill classes. They certainly can't tank. And they don't have the utility of magic.
He doesn't fill even one roll competently. There is nothing he does that they would not be better served by having someone else in the party.
Have you even bothered to look at the damage he does? If he hits with 4 or 5 attacks, he can do 200+ damage...easily...but that's not all...he also has AoOs out the ying-yang...and goes invisible anytime he's not killing. Maybe the rest of the party isn't supposed to do any damage, or something...but that's not how it works.
Have you even bothered to look at the damage he does? If he hits with 4 or 5 attacks, he can do 200+ damage...easily...but that's not all...he also has AoOs out the ying-yang...and goes invisible anytime he's not killing. Maybe the rest of the party isn't supposed to do any damage, or something...but that's not how it works.He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.Then why don't you explain what he does because I can't see it.
He's not:
- Damaging enough to be a damage dealer
- Tanky enough to even tank through damage for another
- better at any skills than a person who could cast spells would be
- able to shape the layout of a battlefield and change the course of battles since he can't do damage
- Capable of being a good face person outside of combat
You claim rogues aren't martials. They're certainly not damage dealers I'll agree. But they're not that great at skills in comparison to other skill classes. They certainly can't tank. And they don't have the utility of magic.
He doesn't fill even one roll competently. There is nothing he does that they would not be better served by having someone else in the party.
how does he hit with 4 or 5 attacks when the first 2 have a 50% miss chance and the 2nd 2 have a 75% miss chance.
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how does he hit with 4 or 5 attacks when the first 2 have a 50% miss chance and the 2nd 2 have a 75% miss chance.Have you even bothered to look at the damage he does? If he hits with 4 or 5 attacks, he can do 200+ damage...easily...but that's not all...he also has AoOs out the ying-yang...and goes invisible anytime he's not killing. Maybe the rest of the party isn't supposed to do any damage, or something...but that's not how it works.He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.Then why don't you explain what he does because I can't see it.
He's not:
- Damaging enough to be a damage dealer
- Tanky enough to even tank through damage for another
- better at any skills than a person who could cast spells would be
- able to shape the layout of a battlefield and change the course of battles since he can't do damage
- Capable of being a good face person outside of combat
You claim rogues aren't martials. They're certainly not damage dealers I'll agree. But they're not that great at skills in comparison to other skill classes. They certainly can't tank. And they don't have the utility of magic.
He doesn't fill even one roll competently. There is nothing he does that they would not be better served by having someone else in the party.
If you don't understand more than that, how do you ever play?
Who has a PF module for level 15 handy? Take a look in it and tell me, if you would, how many encounters are AC under 32? Do people really not understand flanking, and attacking from surprise? have you never been buffed?
If you don't understand more than that, how do you ever play?how does he hit with 4 or 5 attacks when the first 2 have a 50% miss chance and the 2nd 2 have a 75% miss chance.Have you even bothered to look at the damage he does? If he hits with 4 or 5 attacks, he can do 200+ damage...easily...but that's not all...he also has AoOs out the ying-yang...and goes invisible anytime he's not killing. Maybe the rest of the party isn't supposed to do any damage, or something...but that's not how it works.He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.Then why don't you explain what he does because I can't see it.
He's not:
- Damaging enough to be a damage dealer
- Tanky enough to even tank through damage for another
- better at any skills than a person who could cast spells would be
- able to shape the layout of a battlefield and change the course of battles since he can't do damage
- Capable of being a good face person outside of combat
You claim rogues aren't martials. They're certainly not damage dealers I'll agree. But they're not that great at skills in comparison to other skill classes. They certainly can't tank. And they don't have the utility of magic.
He doesn't fill even one roll competently. There is nothing he does that they would not be better served by having someone else in the party.
Ladies and gentlemen, witness a master at his craft, the fine art of trolling.
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If you don't understand more than that, how do you ever play?how does he hit with 4 or 5 attacks when the first 2 have a 50% miss chance and the 2nd 2 have a 75% miss chance.Have you even bothered to look at the damage he does? If he hits with 4 or 5 attacks, he can do 200+ damage...easily...but that's not all...he also has AoOs out the ying-yang...and goes invisible anytime he's not killing. Maybe the rest of the party isn't supposed to do any damage, or something...but that's not how it works.He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.Then why don't you explain what he does because I can't see it.
He's not:
- Damaging enough to be a damage dealer
- Tanky enough to even tank through damage for another
- better at any skills than a person who could cast spells would be
- able to shape the layout of a battlefield and change the course of battles since he can't do damage
- Capable of being a good face person outside of combat
You claim rogues aren't martials. They're certainly not damage dealers I'll agree. But they're not that great at skills in comparison to other skill classes. They certainly can't tank. And they don't have the utility of magic.
He doesn't fill even one roll competently. There is nothing he does that they would not be better served by having someone else in the party.
Ladies and gentlemen, witness a master at his craft, the fine art of trolling.
Not a master, really...but to come on the boards and start asking questions like that? It's either extreme ignorance of how a scenario goes, and how the game gets played, or a troll indeed.
Not a master, really...but to come on the boards and start asking questions like that? It's either extreme...If you don't understand more than that, how do you ever play?how does he hit with 4 or 5 attacks when the first 2 have a 50% miss chance and the 2nd 2 have a 75% miss chance.Have you even bothered to look at the damage he does? If he hits with 4 or 5 attacks, he can do 200+ damage...easily...but that's not all...he also has AoOs out the ying-yang...and goes invisible anytime he's not killing. Maybe the rest of the party isn't supposed to do any damage, or something...but that's not how it works.He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.Then why don't you explain what he does because I can't see it.
He's not:
- Damaging enough to be a damage dealer
- Tanky enough to even tank through damage for another
- better at any skills than a person who could cast spells would be
- able to shape the layout of a battlefield and change the course of battles since he can't do damage
- Capable of being a good face person outside of combat
You claim rogues aren't martials. They're certainly not damage dealers I'll agree. But they're not that great at skills in comparison to other skill classes. They certainly can't tank. And they don't have the utility of magic.
He doesn't fill even one roll competently. There is nothing he does that they would not be better served by having someone else in the party.
Ladies and gentlemen, witness a master at his craft, the fine art of trolling.
But seriously, dropped into an AP at 15th, that character would make a full attack, maybe hit once, then get Mr.Plow-ed into oblivion in one round by... just about anything at CR 15. Regardless of what his party did.
And I think you understand that perfectly well.
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...Not a master, really...but to come on the boards and start asking questions likeIf you don't understand more than that, how do you ever play?how does he hit with 4 or 5 attacks when the first 2 have a 50% miss chance and the 2nd 2 have a 75% miss chance.Have you even bothered to look at the damage he does? If he hits with 4 or 5 attacks, he can do 200+ damage...easily...but that's not all...he also has AoOs out the ying-yang...and goes invisible anytime he's not killing. Maybe the rest of the party isn't supposed to do any damage, or something...but that's not how it works.He doesn't play like that. This is why you never have rogues at your table, then...nobody plays them correctly. They aren't martials. Quit comparing them to martials, or just give up...on not just rogues, but also on trying to tell people why they don't work...because a lot of us have played them, and seen them played...and they do.Then why don't you explain what he does because I can't see it.
He's not:
- Damaging enough to be a damage dealer
- Tanky enough to even tank through damage for another
- better at any skills than a person who could cast spells would be
- able to shape the layout of a battlefield and change the course of battles since he can't do damage
- Capable of being a good face person outside of combat
You claim rogues aren't martials. They're certainly not damage dealers I'll agree. But they're not that great at skills in comparison to other skill classes. They certainly can't tank. And they don't have the utility of magic.
He doesn't fill even one roll competently. There is nothing he does that they would not be better served by having someone else in the party.
Ladies and gentlemen, witness a master at his craft, the fine art of trolling.
Nice try, but you're wrong. I know how to play a rogue.
Straight rogue? Or can it dip a little?
Nice try, but you're wrong. I know how to play a rogue.
Apparently it must involve using loaded dice so you can still hit on all your attack rolls even when your attack bonus is terribly low.
Which, come to think of it, is the kind of thing a rogue would do.
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Nice try, but you're wrong. I know how to play a rogue.
Apparently it must involve using loaded dice so you can still hit on all your attack rolls even when your attack bonus is terribly low.
Which, come to think of it, is the kind of thing a rogue would do.
Nice accusation, but nonsense.
Why is it that some people seem to think a rogue has to compete with the fighter, in combat? Why are you people so silly to believe that someone who has played for 35 years doesn't understand the basics of how a rogue is played?
Do you all play rogues as if they are fighters, just misnamed?
That's funny... Weren't you claiming that Rogues deal a baziliion damage or some such?
Now you complain when people ask you for evidence of how a Roue is supposed to land all his attacks and actually deal a bazillion damage.
You can claim Rogues can consistently deal a lot damage, or you can say damage output is not that important, but claiming both makes you look like a hypocrite.
And BTW, "I've been playing for X years" is not a real argument.
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eldonG man do you understand now
six blankets
seven thread people
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That's funny... Weren't you claiming that Rogues deal a baziliion damage or some such?
Now you complain when people ask you for evidence of how a Roue is supposed to land all his attacks and actually deal a bazillion damage.
You can claim Rogues can consistently deal a lot damage, or you can say damage output is not that important, but claiming both makes you look like a hypocrite.
And BTW, "I've been playing for X years" is not a real argument.
Wait...since when did I use the word 'consistent' at all?
I also don't recall saying he could land all of his attacks. A 'bazillion damage'? Show me.
Again, a rogue is not a martial character. Combat is secondary, not primary. To place that standard on him is to scream, "I don't understand rogues!"
Nice try, but you're wrong. I know how to play a rogue.
Apparently it must involve using loaded dice so you can still hit on all your attack rolls even when your attack bonus is terribly low.
Which, come to think of it, is the kind of thing a rogue would do.
Nice accusation, but nonsense.
Why is it that some people seem to think a rogue has to compete with the fighter, in combat? Why are you people so silly to believe that someone who has played for 35 years doesn't understand the basics of how a rogue is played?
Do you all play rogues as if they are fighters, just misnamed?
the game has changed each edition over those 35 years, and so has the way one approaches a class.
but even in first edition, rogues were useless, because trap rolls could be negated by sheer player cleverness, and the guy who was a former boyscout, soldier, engineer, or fan of mcguyver could solve any puzzle through sheer description. plus paranoid players could check every square to find something.
back then, there were no skill checks.
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Nice accusation, but nonsense.
Why is it that some people seem to think a rogue has to compete with the fighter, in combat? Why are you people so silly to believe that someone who has played for 35 years doesn't understand the basics of how a rogue is played?
Do you all play rogues as if they are fighters, just misnamed?
Because you have as of yet to point out another niche he can competently fill.
Oh and 2.0!=pathfinder
the 3.5 rogue is very close to the pathfinder rogue, but that's actually a problem. He got very little of a buff. Everyone else went up by leaps and bounds.You build a character who you spend a lot of gold to put him in melee but the moment he goes into melee, he's going to die. You contend that he can do tons of damage, but when challenged on it fail to show how.
We all know that even with UMD he's going to be a 2nd rate caster at best and that's with spending a reasonable chunk of gold on wands and scrolls.
He's actually subpar at skills because many other classes have built in bonuses to skills, both numerical and otherwise. I contend that an archaeologist bard could not only replicate this character but easily outperform him in all of his areas of endeavor.
*shrug*
Contend away. I'm not even arguing it. That character's primary job is scouting a dungeon...secondarily, once the fight is going on, and he's in the perfect position, he goes for the kill...or he watches the casters, and kills the flotsam and jetsam that bother them, so they don't get ambushed...or he takes out the mooks, or 1 or 2 of a 3-4 individual encounter.
It's not his job to get into something's face, and he avoids it as if he could stealthily walk on walls and ceilings, invisibly and stealthily...because he can.