Best touch spell for Armor of Spell Storing?

[Rycaut]

I am considering adding Spell Storing to my PFS character's armor. He is a multiclass character at 10th level and has a high UMD (and a level of Magus) so while I'd prefer arcane spells (ideally Magus spells) I'm open to suggestions for both arcane and divine spells.

The key, however, are spells that are Range: Touch as that is the requirement for Spell Storing on armor.

The goal is a spell that will have the strongest automatic effect on a creature that hits me successfully - ideally some effect that will help me then either escape or more likely help me take that creature out of the fight quickly and effectively.

Preference would be for spells that have no save (and since I'm at fairly high levels no SR if at all possible).

I thought about Ghoul Touch - however it appears that you do get a Fort save to avoid the paralysis and it is restricted to humanoids (though since many casters are humanoids it would be great to trigger vs casters).

Pure damage spells are okay but non-ideal as in most cases since my CL is low my damage output on a single spell would be low as well. Touch of Idiocy would hurt against casters (but casters are less likely to hit me with a melee or melee touch attack).

As an aside can you load a Spell Storing item via casting from a wand?

[Rycaut]

Current contenders:

Level 1 (and on Magus spell list) - Frostbite 1d6 non-lethal and target is Fatigued (no save, but SR yes), fatigued isn't a huge condition against many foes (no run or charge, -2 STR and DEX) but it will make most enemies slightly easier to hit and hinder them slightly from hitting.

Level 2 (also on Magus list so useable via a scroll potentially) - Frigid Touch - 4d6 damage and target is staggered for 1 round. Staggered doesn't impose any penalties other than restricting the enemy to a single move or standard action (which at high levels with an enemy right next to me at least means one round of no full-round actions)

[Related Rules question - if an enemy attacks with a full-round attack, hits me with his first attack and I then trigger the spell storing as an immediate action which in turn staggers that enemy does that enemy lose the rest of his full attacks this round? (and would be staggered until the end of his next turn?)]

(if so Frigid Touch just lept to the top of the queue as the ideal spell for spell storing - I guess enemies with cold resistance/immunity would avoid the effect but otherwise would be a life-saver in many situations

[Mr_Nevada]

I'd put my vote on Force Punch hehe

[Rycaut]

Force Punch is okay damage (5d4 or more likely) and a push back effect. Definitely could be useful against many attackers (though remember that if they haven't moved you can take a 5' step in the MIDDLE of a full attack action) and that the movement of the Force Punch effect is diminished if the creature is large or bigger.

Plus there is a save against the movement effect (though not against the damage which is something I guess)

Overall I think I'd prefer to have something that has no save so it will always have an impact. Especially since a spell-stored item will only trigger once per combat (and requires me to find a way to replenish it between combats)

Frigid Touch is appealing as well in that for PFS play I could get a scroll with 5 castings of it for 2PA (since it is a 2nd level spell, one scroll is 150gp) and use a fairly simple caster level check to cast it - using Frostbite if I want to save gp) and then in 2 more levels I'll be able to cast Frigid Touch directly (though since I'll be CL 12 then I won't have a lot more PFS games unless I can find folks to play Eye of the Ten or some high level modules with). But if I can indeed impose staggered against an enemy and avoid two full rounds of full attack actions from the enemy that is a big deal indeed (since at high levels if I can take two full attack actions myself I should be able to dish out a lot of damage and effects - and help my allies do the same)

[Sleet Storm]

Frigid Touch

[Weirdo]

I also like Frigid Touch.

I would interpret the staggered benefit as applying for one turn.

So if it goes off on the first attack of a full-attack I'd interpret it as interrupting that full-attack but not lasting during their next turn, since they've already lost actions in one turn. Same thing if it goes off on a standard-action attack when they haven't yet made a move. But if it goes off after a standard attack when they've already moved it has no effect this turn, so it would leave them staggered on the next round. (I'd also probably rule this way if it goes off during an iterative attack of a full-round attack).

That's just my guess, though - you should check that in the rules forum for PFS.

[Raven's Shadow 2]

Vamperic touch is a fun one it goes good with defensive shock i play a Magus and dropped a elemental with the combo it also save me from getting killed.

[WhiteFox]

Ghoul touch paralyzes the target if you make a successful melee touch attack, the fortitude save is only to not become sickened.

This means if you are touched, you are paralyzed.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/ghoul-touch

[Maezer]

WhiteFox wrote:

Ghoul touch paralyzes the target if you make a successful melee touch attack, the fortitude save is only to not become sickened.

This means if you are touched, you are paralyzed.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/ghoul-touch

The target receives the standard fortitude negates save, which negates the spell from having any effect. Assuming the target fails, everyone within 10 feet gets a fortitude save to negate the the second effect from the stench.

[Cold Napalm]

So I don't see an errata yet for this book so you do realize that spell storing as written doesn't work right? Since this is PFS, you can't use a houserule unfortunately.

The ability say when your hit you need a SWIFT action activate the spell. Unless you get hit drawing an AoO, you have no swift actions to activate the ability. Makes the ability kinda useless....

[Yure]

Let me raise the dead one moment with this thread. An immediate action is a swift action not taken during your turn. Would not spell storing armor be the same? If not at the very least you should be able to cast it when your turn comes up.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Here's the official clarification, although it hasn't made it into errata yet I guess.

"Yeah, it really should be an immediate action. It is on our list of things to fix."

Should be enough of an official clarification for PFS.

[vanAdamme]

Wouldn't frigid touch give the _attacker_ the ability to make a frigid touch attack?

[Malkin the Magician]

vanAdamme wrote:

Wouldn't frigid touch give the _attacker_ the ability to make a frigid touch attack?

No.

Anytime a creature hits the wearer with a melee attack or melee touch attack, the armor can cast the spell on that creature as an immediate action if the wearer desires. Once the spell has been cast from the armor, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted touch spell of up to 3rd level into it.

Armor is the caster and the hitter is the target (see spell Target creature touched)

The effect of the spell hits the target. The effect is 4d6 with staggered for one round.

If the target of a touch spell was "you" than maybe the hitter would get ability of the spell. But, that's not how this spell worked.

[claudekennilol]

Weirdo wrote:

I also like Frigid Touch.

I would interpret the staggered benefit as applying for one turn.

So if it goes off on the first attack of a full-attack I'd interpret it as interrupting that full-attack but not lasting during their next turn, since they've already lost actions in one turn. Same thing if it goes off on a standard-action attack when they haven't yet made a move. But if it goes off after a standard attack when they've already moved it has no effect this turn, so it would leave them staggered on the next round. (I'd also probably rule this way if it goes off during an iterative attack of a full-round attack).

That's just my guess, though - you should check that in the rules forum for PFS.

How else would you make it work? Or rather, how else could it be made to work?

[Malkin the Magician]

claudekennilol wrote:

Weirdo wrote:

I also like Frigid Touch.

I would interpret the staggered benefit as applying for one turn.

So if it goes off on the first attack of a full-attack I'd interpret it as interrupting that full-attack but not lasting during their next turn, since they've already lost actions in one turn. Same thing if it goes off on a standard-action attack when they haven't yet made a move. But if it goes off after a standard attack when they've already moved it has no effect this turn, so it would leave them staggered on the next round. (I'd also probably rule this way if it goes off during an iterative attack of a full-round attack).

That's just my guess, though - you should check that in the rules forum for PFS.

How else would you make it work? Or rather, how else could it be made to work?

Quote:

Excerpt from the Strategy Guide (pg. 125):

Immediate Action

A few spells and abilities are immediate actions, which means they can be used during another creature’s turn, possibly interrupting that creature mid-action. When an immediate action is taken, resolve it, then continue with any action that was interrupted . If that activity is no longer valid, the interrupted creature’s action is wasted. If you use an immediate action when it’s not your turn, you give up your next turn’s swift action. If you use an immediate action during your own turn, it uses your swift action for that turn.

For iterative attacks once an attack hits the spell goes off, the attacker takes damage and is staggered. Next, the damage on the recipient of the iterative attack is calculated. Iterative attack stops because the creature can't exceed that move or standard staggered limitation.

Staggered will clear before the next turn.

Quote:

The rules on combat rounds on page 178 say:

Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.

Never waste spell storing armor with frigid touch on a single attack. Do use spells storing armor with bestow curse on a single attack.

[claudekennilol]

Malkin the Magician wrote:

For iterative attacks once an attack hits the spell goes off, the attacker takes damage and is staggered. Next, the damage on the recipient of the iterative attack is calculated. Iterative attack stops because the creature can't exceed that move or standard staggered limitation.

Never waste spell storing armor with frigid touch...

Yes, that's the obvious and intended use for it. I was referring to "That's just my guess, though - you should check that in the rules forum for PFS." I was asking what possible other interpretations there were for it.

Also, Why not "waste" it with frigid touch? You give a perfectly viable example of why it's beneficial then simply say "don't waste it like this" without saying why..

[Malkin the Magician]

claudekennilol wrote:

Also, Why not "waste" it with frigid touch? You give a perfectly viable example of why it's beneficial then simply say "don't waste it like this" without saying why..

I said it's a waste to use it on a single attack. I thought the explaination was self eveident based to the prior conversations.

If a dragon with 6 attacks flies in and attacks you don't burn a frigid touch on that one attack. Yes, you do a small amount of damage but the staggered with be gone before the next turn and the dragon then it gets a full attack. Take the one hit and wait for the full attack during the next round. You get the same damage and way better denial of actions this way.

Also, and i guess it was hard to make it clear but I was expanding on your "How else would you make it work? Or rather, how else could it be made to work?" with a full explanation for the other people on the thread not countering what you were saying.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

@claudekennilol, Malkin said "Never waste spell storing armor with frigid touch on a single attack." not "Never use spell storing armor with frigid touch."

Which mostly makes sense, unless you really think the damage is going to drop the opponent. You're much better off holding it to foil a full attack, where it excels.

EDIT: Doh, ninjaed.

[Malkin the Magician]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

@claudekennilol, Malkin said "Never waste spell storing armor with frigid touch on a single attack." not "Never use spell storing armor with frigid touch."

Which mostly makes sense, unless you really think the damage is going to drop the opponent. You're much better off holding it to foil a full attack, where it excels.

I was going to add this clause but I didn't want to get that deep into the sub-strategies but it is a good point.

[claudekennilol]

Gotchya. I missed the single attack part. Also obvious.. p.s. You also like very verbose responses.. You could've stopped with the first period as that's all that my question asked for.

[Suthainn]

If you're a Magus then it's also possible you might have the Rime metamagic or at least a rod of it, a Rime Frigid Touch is still storable (3rd level) and not only allows you to cut off a full attack but then leaves the enemy Entangled, allowing easier attacks on them or a much easier escape.

[Malkin the Magician]

claudekennilol wrote:

Gotchya. I missed the single attack part. Also obvious.. p.s. You also like very verbose responses.. You could've stopped with the first period as that's all that my question asked for.

Could not tell if you did not read it or not did not understand. "without saying why" implied you wanted an explanation.

[Gisher]

Suthainn wrote:

If you're a Magus then it's also possible you might have the Rime metamagic or at least a rod of it, a Rime Frigid Touch is still storable (3rd level) and not only allows you to cut off a full attack but then leaves the enemy Entangled, allowing easier attacks on then or a much easier escape.

That is a very good idea.

[Grandlounge]

I will be stealing the rime idea. Thanks

[Cevah]

I like Windy Escape, and it is even Magus 1.

/cevah

[Gisher]

Cevah wrote:

I like Windy Escape, and it is even Magus 1.

/cevah

Spell Storing armor only works with touch spells, so Windy Escape isn't an option.

[Cevah]

Oops. Well, it is an immediate cast spell, so still viable for self casting unless you really need that next turn's swift action for something else.

/cevah

[Andrea Ortale]

Question: wouldn't a ranged touch spell also be a touch spell? Could I store spells such as Ray of Enfeeblement or Scorching Ray?

[Heymitch]

Get your Cleric buddy to cast Bestow Curse for you.

[deusvult]

You can also use the spell storing armor to store a touch range buff, like perhaps Infernal Healing. Obviously you don't discharge the stored spell on hostiles. Instead you use the armor as a spell storing device, and unleash the spell upon yourself by "striking" yourself. No need to actually hit yourself with a weapon... just spend the standard action to make a touch attack on yourself.

[JDLPF]

Some further ideas:

Greater Invisibility
Stoneskin
Greater Shield of Fortification
Displacement
Jester's Jaunt
Heroism

There's some strong defensive options there that can be activated as an immediate action before you take a hit. Free 50% concealment from Greater Invisibility or Displacement, 50% negation of criticals and sneak attacks, DR 10/adamantine, or just a +2 bonus to attack rolls and skills.

But for my money, Jester's Jaunt is the cream of the crop. Immediately teleport away as an immediate action before you take a hit and end up anywhere within 30 ft. range? Hell yes.

[The Steel Refrain]

In line with some prior recommendations (before thread necromancy took over), I use Spell Storing armor with my Shaman, and usually keep it charged up with Stricken Heart to interrupt full attacks.

Because I'm playing a battle-oriented Shaman, his DCs are low, so no-save spells like Stricken Heart are great. If I could generate higher DCs I would probably store Bestow Curse, because the option to only allow 50% chance to do anything in a given turn is ridiculously strong. (I did manage to pull it off against an Ettin we were fighting at earlier levels, and it trivialized the encounter. But now that we're at higher levels, I don't bother trying anymore because enemy saves are too high to make it worthwhile.)

[The Steel Refrain]

JDLPF wrote:

Some further ideas:

Greater Invisibility
Stoneskin
Greater Shield of Fortification
Displacement
Jester's Jaunt
Heroism

There's some strong defensive options there that can be activated as an immediate action before you take a hit. Free 50% concealment from Greater Invisibility or Displacement, 50% negation of criticals and sneak attacks, DR 10/adamantine, or just a +2 bonus to attack rolls and skills.

But for my money, Jester's Jaunt is the cream of the crop. Immediately teleport away as an immediate action before you take a hit and end up anywhere within 30 ft. range? Hell yes.

You can activate these spells on the enemy as an immediate action, and I understand the argument that you could theoretically strike yourself to trigger them, but I am at a bit of a loss as to how you'd activate these on *yourself* as an immediate action before taking a hit?

I don't think there is anything in the armor ability wording (or otherwise) that says you can interrupt an enemy's attack to strike yourself -- the wording seems clear you can use an immediate action to have it cast on the attacking creature. Without being able to interrupt to strike yourself, the plan doesn't really work...

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

JDLPF wrote:

Some further ideas:

Greater Invisibility
Stoneskin
Greater Shield of Fortification
Displacement
Jester's Jaunt
Heroism

There's some strong defensive options there that can be activated as an immediate action before you take a hit. Free 50% concealment from Greater Invisibility or Displacement, 50% negation of criticals and sneak attacks, DR 10/adamantine, or just a +2 bonus to attack rolls and skills.

But for my money, Jester's Jaunt is the cream of the crop. Immediately teleport away as an immediate action before you take a hit and end up anywhere within 30 ft. range? Hell yes.

First and Foremost you can only store up to Level 3 spells in Spellstoring Armor and Weapon. All those 4th level spells you listed can not work...At all. FOr the Summoner who casts them at Level 3 is very rare indeed. But the Spell is activated on the Enemy and not yourself. You do not want to be buffing the enemy.

The best Spells for spell storing are:

Frigid Touch with Rime added- Staggered and Entangled will shut down many enemies. Lesser Rime Rod costs 3k. Load it the night before and you have your full spell list

Vampiric Touch- This is a HP spike. It helps frontliners with Low HP and help gain some health back after being hit.

Bestow Curse- Because -6 to an ability is strong, or the curse of 50% chance of enemy to do nothing.

Rods can help the spells you store in the armor since they do not increase the level of the spell. So Empowered or Maximized Vamp. touches, Persistent Bestow Curse. Very useful tools for getting more Bang out your Buck...literally.

[The Steel Refrain]

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

JDLPF wrote:

Some further ideas:

Greater Invisibility
Stoneskin
Greater Shield of Fortification
Displacement
Jester's Jaunt
Heroism

There's some strong defensive options there that can be activated as an immediate action before you take a hit. Free 50% concealment from Greater Invisibility or Displacement, 50% negation of criticals and sneak attacks, DR 10/adamantine, or just a +2 bonus to attack rolls and skills.

But for my money, Jester's Jaunt is the cream of the crop. Immediately teleport away as an immediate action before you take a hit and end up anywhere within 30 ft. range? Hell yes.

First and Foremost you can only store up to Level 3 spells in Spellstoring Armor and Weapon. All those 4th level spells you listed can not work...At all. FOr the Summoner who casts them at Level 3 is very rare indeed. But the Spell is activated on the Enemy and not yourself. You do not want to be buffing the enemy.

The best Spells for spell storing are:

Frigid Touch with Rime added- Staggered and Entangled will shut down many enemies. Lesser Rime Rod costs 3k. Load it the night before and you have your full spell list

Vampiric Touch- This is a HP spike. It helps frontliners with Low HP and help gain some health back after being hit.

Bestow Curse- Because -6 to an ability is strong, or the curse of 50% chance of enemy to do nothing.

Rods can help the spells you store in the armor since they do not increase the level of the spell. So Empowered or Maximized Vamp. touches, Persistent Bestow Curse. Very useful tools for getting more Bang out your Buck...literally.

Nice call on the use of rods. Hadn't really thought of that. Persistent Bestow Curse mwould be a very rude surprise for many enemies!

[Grandlounge]

It is possible to have a heighten(feat), rime(rod), Frigid Touch for an extra round of entangle. It's not worth building around but if you have it use it.

[Azothath]

YMMV, it is very likely that a GM will consider the effective level rather than the spell's original level against the spell storing limit. Likewise, traits/feats that effect metamagic cost may not work for spell storing. The limitation is there for a reason and that's a power limit more than anything else. I'm not saying it will happen, just expect pushback. I say that as crafting an item with a metamagic feat on a spell will increase the cost versus the same item without that metamagic.
Yes... there will be some gnashing of teeth.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Azothath wrote:

YMMV, it is very likely that a GM will consider the effective level rather than the spell's original level against the spell storing limit. Likewise, traits/feats that effect metamagic cost may not work for spell storing. The limitation is there for a reason and that's a power limit more than anything else. I'm not saying it will happen, just expect pushback. I say that as crafting an item with a metamagic feat on a spell will increase the cost versus the same item without that metamagic.

Yes... there will be some gnashing of teeth.

Considering the Rules on Rods specifically call out it does not raise the effective level a PFS GM won't be able to say/do anything.

Metamagic Rods wrote:

This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell.

In Home games it is up to a GM but its a weak argument on their behalf other than "No because I am GM." I as a Player avoid GMs who get too salty about you following the rules of the game and start banning things left and right Mid game. Most DM/GMs I choose to play with have spelled out rules up front and if a Mid Game ban is needed they have a lot more of an argument than "Because I am GM." Maybe some Errata came out ext ext.

[Azothath]

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Azothath wrote:

YMMV, it is very likely that a GM will consider the effective level rather than the spell's original level against the spell storing limit. Likewise, traits/feats that effect metamagic cost may not work for spell storing. The limitation is there for a reason and that's a power limit more than anything else. I'm not saying it will happen, just expect pushback. I say that as crafting an item with a metamagic feat on a spell will increase the cost versus the same item without that metamagic.

Yes... there will be some gnashing of teeth.

Considering the Rules on Rods specifically call out it does not raise the effective level a PFS GM won't be able to say/do anything.

Metamagic Rods wrote:

This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell.

In Home games it is up to a GM but its a weak argument on their behalf other than "No because I am GM." I as a Player avoid GMs who get too salty about you following the rules of the game and start banning things left and right Mid game. Most DM/GMs I choose to play with have spelled out rules up front and if a Mid Game ban is needed they have a lot more of an argument than "Because I am GM." Maybe some Errata came out ext ext.

then I shall point you to a Jason Bulmahn post, May 2010 for some reading. James Jacobs chimes in a few posts later, and then Jason again...

[Suthainn]

Azothath wrote:

then I shall point you to a Jason Bulmahn post, May 2010 for some reading. James Jacobs chimes in a few posts later, and then Jason again...

Luckily, the choice I personally consider to be best in most circumstances ignores that entirely, a Rime'd Frigid Touch is still only 3rd level even if you do count the metamagic increase and does an incredible job of shutting down your enemy and allowing you free reign to escape without much chance for them to catch you.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Azothath wrote:

then I shall point you to a Jason Bulmahn post, May 2010 for some reading. James Jacobs chimes in a few posts later, and then Jason again...

Has An Official Errata or FAQ been dropped in the past 6 years regarding this?

[_Ozy_]

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Azothath wrote:

then I shall point you to a Jason Bulmahn post, May 2010 for some reading. James Jacobs chimes in a few posts later, and then Jason again...

Has An Official Errata or FAQ been dropped in the past 6 years regarding this?

Yes.

Quote:

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Yes that is talking about meta magic feats. I am very aware of the feats and how they work typically.

I'm specifically talking about Rods which do not increase the spell level. None of your linked FAQ is related to Meta magic rods.

[Azothath]

lol... moving on...

some options discussed before.

practical: whatever spell you or your buddies have leftover from the day.

1st
* Shocking grasp (no save) is pretty standard. At 10th caster level you'll need Intensified(+1), so a simple damage rider on your attack. For you probably your buddy should cast it.
* Touch of Blindness {Wiz}(Fort) for blindness. Probably Persistent(+2).

2nd
* Touch of Mercy {Wiz}(Will) opponent only does non-lethal damage with weapons. Duration/save relies on wiz/clr caster & level.
* Frigid Touch(none) 4d6[cold] & staggared. with Rime(+1). Stricken Heart {Wiz} if they are cold resistant.
* Touch of Bloodletting {Wiz} (Will) 1 bleed and EXHAUSTION. Duration/save relies on wiz caster & level.

3rd
* Vampiric Touch (none) is standard and pretty reasonable.
* Bestow Curse {Clr}(Will) 50% no action. Save relies on cleric caster.

so, as a magus with low CL, probably your buddies are the best suppliers of spells.
otherwise Frigid Touch with Rime.

[MeanMutton]

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Yes that is talking about meta magic feats. I am very aware of the feats and how they work typically.

I'm specifically talking about Rods which do not increase the spell level. None of your linked FAQ is related to Meta magic rods.

Metamagic Rods work by giving you the ability to use the associated feat a specified number of times per day (with the added benefit that they do not raise the spell level).

Metamagic Rods wrote:

Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day.