I'm a new GM, running my first campaign. Two of the players that are going to be joining our 3-party team just showed me their characters.
The rolling system is (4d6, drop 1s) x 7, allocate 6 highest results.
The average point-buy score for this is around 38. Your average roll is 14.
These are their stats:
Str 16
Dex 15
Con 17
Int 14+2
Wis 18
Cha 15
Str 17
Dex 16
Con 14+2
Int 17
Wis 15
Cha 18
I immediately saw these as highly improbable and became somewhat suspicious. I know these two, played with one while the other was the DM. I trust them... but those stats are just ridiculous, right?
I've asked them to reroll/adjust their states to be more in line with the rest of the group (which has point scores from 37 to 41 - compared to their 59 and 65)
I did my best to avoid using the world "improbable" but I don't know how subtle I necessarily was that I found their stats dubious. This was all handled via text.
Thoughts? Am I being stupid, or is this a legit response?
If you can't trust your players, point buy is generally a far superior alternative that doesn't cause hurt feelings.
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I spent my youth as the guy who couldn't good roll random stats to save my life, while others in my group excelled through it. I favor point buy.
It's hard to use a rolling method and say they all need to be comparable on a point buy.
My group has done this a few times, not every time.
We have everyone do a set of stats and record them all on one page. then afterwards the players can take any stat set they like for their characters. Once we had a very improbable high set show up (i think it was about a 50 point buy equiv) in which case the dm simply said 'that's too much for my comfort, either pick a different set, or reroll a new set for the group list please.' No hurt feelings, no sour grapes.
That said, you could say that you don't want any new characters to be above the stat buy equivalents of the existing party as a way to be PC about it.
Rathendar: That's pretty much what I did, I think. I'd like the party to be balanced. I think he may have taken it negatively, I'm not sure.
Part of me believes that they both rolled their stats, and they both got really lucky.
But part of me knows the probability of those dice rolls.
I think the part that knows statistics may have gotten across a bit more than I wanted to.
I prefer point buy, but for rolling I always do it in front of the DM, or as a DM, ask that it be done in front of me.
Side note: Another technique my group used to use, back when we were still rolling and hadn't transitioned to point buy:
X stat blocks are generated by rolling, then any player can pick whichever stat block they like. That way the players have access to the same power in terms of starting stats.
If you are going to have players roll stats, have them roll in front of you.
No exceptions.
Or have it verified with something like http://invisiblecastle.com/
Or have it verified with something like http://invisiblecastle.com/
How do you avoid the situation where a player who rolls a dozen times and picks the best set?
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The method you're using is very generous, but these stats do feel improbably good (though perfectly possible).
100 sets of stats generated by the method you specify...
N,1,2,3,4,5,6,mean,stdev,min,max
1,13,13,15,16,17,18,15.33,2.07,13,18
2,11,13,14,15,14,14,13.50,1.38,11,15
3,13,12,12,13,15,14,13.17,1.17,12,15
4,8,11,14,13,13,14,12.17,2.32,8,14
5,12,11,14,14,14,14,13.17,1.33,11,14
6,14,14,15,14,17,17,15.17,1.47,14,17
7,11,10,14,13,8,16,12.00,2.90,8,16
8,16,13,12,11,13,14,13.17,1.72,11,16
9,13,15,14,13,15,14,14.00,0.89,13,15
10,16,17,16,17,12,14,15.33,1.97,12,17
11,12,16,15,18,13,17,15.17,2.32,12,18
12,14,18,17,14,13,10,14.33,2.88,10,18
13,9,17,14,13,16,12,13.50,2.88,9,17
14,13,15,14,13,15,12,13.67,1.21,12,15
15,12,10,14,15,12,17,13.33,2.50,10,17
16,16,17,16,11,14,11,14.17,2.64,11,17
17,17,12,16,13,10,12,13.33,2.66,10,17
18,13,17,12,13,13,14,13.67,1.75,12,17
19,14,16,11,13,15,10,13.17,2.32,10,16
20,15,13,13,11,15,13,13.33,1.51,11,15
21,12,16,16,14,18,14,15.00,2.10,12,18
22,12,9,11,10,13,14,11.50,1.87,9,14
23,15,14,16,13,14,13,14.17,1.17,13,16
24,15,14,16,15,16,13,14.83,1.17,13,16
25,15,12,13,16,15,17,14.67,1.86,12,17
26,16,15,13,15,15,11,14.17,1.83,11,16
27,14,15,13,13,13,13,13.50,0.84,13,15
28,17,13,12,14,16,13,14.17,1.94,12,17
29,15,11,13,15,12,12,13.00,1.67,11,15
30,15,13,12,14,16,17,14.50,1.87,12,17
31,12,10,12,18,13,12,12.83,2.71,10,18
32,11,12,13,13,13,12,12.33,0.82,11,13
33,16,12,14,16,15,14,14.50,1.52,12,16
34,11,15,14,15,13,16,14.00,1.79,11,16
35,14,15,15,16,17,15,15.33,1.03,14,17
36,10,16,13,15,15,16,14.17,2.32,10,16
37,16,15,17,11,12,12,13.83,2.48,11,17
38,15,12,16,14,17,16,15.00,1.79,12,17
39,14,15,14,15,17,15,15.00,1.10,14,17
40,13,16,16,17,15,13,15.00,1.67,13,17
41,11,14,16,14,14,16,14.17,1.83,11,16
42,13,16,10,16,10,10,12.50,2.95,10,16
43,13,14,13,12,13,17,13.67,1.75,12,17
44,13,15,18,12,14,15,14.50,2.07,12,18
45,14,13,11,16,13,11,13.00,1.90,11,16
46,14,17,14,13,15,15,14.67,1.37,13,17
47,17,13,16,16,12,16,15.00,2.00,12,17
48,10,16,14,16,12,14,13.67,2.34,10,16
49,11,16,14,14,16,12,13.83,2.04,11,16
50,15,13,12,13,16,13,13.67,1.51,12,16
51,16,18,14,11,12,14,14.17,2.56,11,18
52,14,13,16,13,15,16,14.50,1.38,13,16
53,14,12,12,18,15,14,14.17,2.23,12,18
54,16,13,12,11,16,12,13.33,2.16,11,16
55,13,16,15,15,12,12,13.83,1.72,12,16
56,14,13,14,15,15,17,14.67,1.37,13,17
57,15,15,16,14,15,15,15.00,0.63,14,16
58,15,16,16,9,15,14,14.17,2.64,9,16
59,16,16,13,13,17,14,14.83,1.72,13,17
60,10,12,14,14,16,15,13.50,2.17,10,16
61,18,16,16,12,12,11,14.17,2.86,11,18
62,13,15,14,14,16,13,14.17,1.17,13,16
63,13,13,13,16,12,14,13.50,1.38,12,16
64,15,14,16,13,14,17,14.83,1.47,13,17
65,13,18,16,15,14,12,14.67,2.16,12,18
66,15,15,14,13,16,13,14.33,1.21,13,16
67,15,14,13,14,14,15,14.17,0.75,13,15
68,12,12,15,10,15,16,13.33,2.34,10,16
69,12,15,13,16,13,11,13.33,1.86,11,16
70,15,15,15,18,16,14,15.50,1.38,14,18
71,11,14,15,11,14,15,13.33,1.86,11,15
72,11,16,13,12,11,12,12.50,1.87,11,16
73,13,16,13,13,15,17,14.50,1.76,13,17
74,13,14,14,11,15,12,13.17,1.47,11,15
75,15,14,16,16,14,14,14.83,0.98,14,16
76,16,14,17,16,13,13,14.83,1.72,13,17
77,14,15,16,11,13,16,14.17,1.94,11,16
78,16,13,12,15,14,18,14.67,2.16,12,18
79,17,15,16,15,17,16,16.00,0.89,15,17
80,13,11,12,11,16,13,12.67,1.86,11,16
81,13,14,16,14,13,14,14.00,1.10,13,16
82,11,12,10,11,15,11,11.67,1.75,10,15
83,16,14,18,13,12,16,14.83,2.23,12,18
84,14,18,14,17,17,15,15.83,1.72,14,18
85,16,15,12,17,13,11,14.00,2.37,11,17
86,13,12,16,14,9,13,12.83,2.32,9,16
87,13,12,12,14,11,11,12.17,1.17,11,14
88,12,16,12,13,11,13,12.83,1.72,11,16
89,13,15,13,16,17,14,14.67,1.63,13,17
90,13,13,15,16,16,13,14.33,1.51,13,16
91,13,14,14,14,18,9,13.67,2.88,9,18
92,15,15,12,12,13,15,13.67,1.51,12,15
93,13,14,14,12,15,14,13.67,1.03,12,15
94,11,15,15,14,13,11,13.17,1.83,11,15
95,13,15,17,13,17,10,14.17,2.71,10,17
96,15,11,11,17,13,11,13.00,2.53,11,17
97,14,14,15,13,14,14,14.00,0.63,13,15
98,15,14,15,12,14,13,13.83,1.17,12,15
99,15,17,15,13,13,14,14.50,1.52,13,17
100,11,16,11,12,14,9,12.17,2.48,9,16
So, slightly better than those, but not unprecedented. They could easily have both just gotten lucky; however (IMO) this is just one of several reasons to dislike random stat generation -- it can cause doubt and suspicion among players & GMs.
Rolling is, well... dicey. Some people will get high, some get low. I prefer point-buy, but if you're going to go with rolls, then it's probably best to have some way to verify that nobody's gaming the system. It can be as simple as having them roll in front of you.
If you don't have a way to verify and don't trust the players not to cheat, then things get a bit more troublesome, not just in regards to differing power among PC's, but in your response. For example, if they had rolled in front of you, and gotten these exact stats, would you be asking them to rework them to be more in line with the rest of the party? And if you would ask them to do that, why not just go with point-buy in the first place?
Callum: Definitely possible, but the improbability of it makes me rank it just below a block of all 18s.
And if it were just one of them, that's one thing. But both of them giving me unusually high stats? I must admit the fact that they live together creeps into my assessment as well.
This is the highest-point character we have not counting them:
Str 15
Dex 16+2
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 16
I know I'm making accusations at this point, and by now I totally agree that I'll want to see my players roll stats - not necessarily because I don't trust them, but because I'm apparently very paranoid about probability.
It's going to cause discord among the other players because they are going to be jealous and annoyed that they have to start with stats that pale in comparison to those. And they may get bitter if they suspect shady cheating from the rolls. Who wants to play a character that is severely underpowered compared to his teammates?
The method you're using is very generous, but these stats do feel improbably good (though perfectly possible).
100 sets of stats generated by the method you specify...
** spoiler omitted **...
wow, I loved roll #79 :D
17,15,16,15,17,16daaaamn.....
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This is the highest-point character we have not counting them:
Str 15
Dex 16+2
Con 15
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 16
Those numbers look 100% legit for the method you're using which gives 12-16 within +/- 1sd.
The other two sets of stats are roughly +1.5sd above the mean, so about 1 in 10 chance of one of them rolling that well, and a 1 in 100 of them both independently rolling that well.
I just rolled
21,18,21,16,20,17 dropped a 12
took me 5 attempts.
The method you're using is very generous, but these stats do feel improbably good (though perfectly possible).
100 sets of stats generated by the method you specify...
** spoiler omitted **
Actually, he did 7x4d6, not 6x4d6, so you can expect more favourable results. ;O
It's going to cause discord among the other players because they are going to be jealous and annoyed that they have to start with stats that pale in comparison to those. And they may get bitter if they suspect shady cheating from the rolls. Who wants to play a character that is severely underpowered compared to his teammates?
Hmm... I agree with this to a point. If you (Pendabrok) can't trust other group members it's just going to create a schism from all the paranoia and hostility. That said, System Mastery > High mods in irrelevant stats. Not to mention it really depends what level you start at and what class you're playing.
A Fighter with really high stats is just going to be able to use his Armour Training more fully and have decent Will/Reflex saves. Whereas, a Druid with awesome stats can hit for damage and still fire off High DC SoS or BFC spells, similarly, so can a Magus or Cleric.tl;dr extra stats don't mean much if you're still pigeon-holed.
If your group is/you are uncomfortable with stat disparities then go ahead with the re-roll.
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The method you're using is very generous, but these stats do feel improbably good (though perfectly possible).
100 sets of stats generated by the method you specify...
** spoiler omitted **
Actually, he did 7x4d6, not 6x4d6, so you can expect more favourable results. ;O
No, I realised that and excluded the lowest of the 7 results accordingly, the mistake I made was that I assumed it was best3from4d6 whereas he'd actually said it was just 4d6.
Sorry, clarifications required because I misinformed.
Roll 4d6, reroll 1s, drop the lowest roll.
Do this 7 times, drop the lowest result.
Allocate.
This is the same stat system he used in his games, so I used it as well.
The reroll 1's and the 7 Rolls is what skewed the results...
Starting my campaign soon with my players, I also have issue with unbalanced stars between my players, I once tried coming up with a system that incorporated point buy with rolling, since I don't like either method
Rolling is unbalanced, and point buy favors SAD classes and promotes min maxing and stat dumping
Just recently played a game where the Dm handed us our stats, which I was totally agaisnt because in the past I had always been handed s&+*ty stats, but he have us really good stats that weren't broken
We got:
18 16 15 13 12 10
Meaning no negative stats unless we get it from race, I really like the array because you can do anything with it, and you can balance it well between SAD and MAD classes
I use a Heroic NPC Stat Array with a +2 in all 6 numbers or Rolled Stats which ever gives them the better total.
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Just remember, improbable does not mean impossible. Statistical probability wor to a bell curve and some re going to be at the top. You've further skewed the results with rue rolls, extra dice and extra generation of stat values to allow the optimal chance of high results.
My advice, trust them. After the first few levels it will make less difference than their feat selection and abilities from classes any way.
The flip side of this is that someone may roll at he other end of the bell curve as well. If you really don't wan this, just give them point buy.
Cheers.
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In the future you can always ask players to roll in front of you and that removes any element of doubt.
My group usually has a quick look at the general level of stats rolled and adjusts if there are any obviously low or obviously high rolls - one guy rolled two 18s and traded one for a low-rolling player's 11s. This works if you know your players and they're a reasonably cooperative bunch.
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Re roll 1's (of which there are 7)
So first is 12, taking first re roll into account
Then 9 with re roll
Then 18
Then 17
Then 17 again (both 17's came about from revolving ones)
Then 12
Then 12.
Obviously I'd drop the 9. That gives 3 x12's, 2x 17's and one by 18.
That was my first attempt using the dice roller. You need to be aware of the power of re rolls to seriously skew your data.
Cheers.
Or have it verified with something like http://invisiblecastle.com/How do you avoid the situation where a player who rolls a dozen times and picks the best set?
The roller records&tracks rolls under character name and campaign name. It also lets you add a note for what the purpose was.
So you can tell your player they can roll on their own as long as they use a specific character name and campaign name and note what each roll is for.
Then you can see a list of all the rolls they did for that character and campaign. If you see multiple rolls for the same thing, CHEAT.
Personally I like assigning stats by array, so it's really only useful for HP.
Several years ago when I was starting a campaign I had a player present me with the following stat string: 18, 18, 17, 16, 16, 15. It struck me as improbable. I went online and asked the odds of rolling that string here, and people confirmed my belief that those rolls were on the very outside chance of probability. So I had him roll again, using my dice, in front of me.
That lucky so-and-so rolled a string that totaled one point HIGHER than what he'd previously given me. He completely dominated that campaign.
I use point-buy now.
Recently joined game and offered for 20 pt buy but gm wanted me to roll...str 17 dex 18+2/20 con 16 int 15 wis 16 char 13
And rolls were in front of gm/party:)
i dont like regular point buy (10-20) because it leaves you underpowered in many aspects so you can focus on your main class features
promoting stat dumping i feel is bad, and creating a system that benefits certain classes as point buy does is also bad for the game
its just another thing people will be able to b*#$~ about wizards ultimately winning, since they only really care about one stat, vs a cleric who cares about many
I here recently rolled 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 17 In front of my GM. She decided she would roll for me... She then rolled 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18. All we heard was her scream a line of profanity. She gave me her rolls just because of the stupidity of it... Alongside my Very, Very, Very M.A.D. build.
I would not be too worried about their stats, honestly I find that in the ends its not terrible when someone has a wide variety of good stats (still just as likely to roll a 1 or 20 on saves or hits, for example) and you had a particularly forgiving method. Usually the person with the stats will be amped up mentally at the start and feel powerful, but that usually stops after a couple sessions, particularly if something bad happens to them. Like who cares what your stats are when the current BBEG is the horseman death and he just critted you on a spirited charge.
Heck we roll in my group and I once rolled 18, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17 and if I am not mistaken I on average was the least effective in combat. Sometimes the dice just don't favor you.
Well, all good advice for the future, thanks, everyone.
My two players have decided to "take a break from Pathfinder for a while."
Who knows..?
New DM, you go Point buy. Period. 100%. Trust me.
Later, you can make a little "character roll up session" where you all meet to roll and set up PCs. But as a new DM, you're going to have enuf problems without adding an extra level.
last few times we've rolled, and then GM balanced the stats a bit by bumping the low ones.
Improbable stats are improbable, but not impossible.
Long ago in my AD&D 1e days there was a person in our group who rolled three 18s. He was a fighter; in rolling his percentile strength he rolled 100%. It was an amazing thing to see.
We used the 4d6 seven times, cast away lowest die then cast away lowest of the seven rolls as well.
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All the talk about "why roll ability scores instead of point buy?" is irrelevant.
You say that they gave you their scores by text; what do you mean? Do you use dice rollers in a chat room, or was this SMS, or?
Whenever we roll, everyone (or at least the GM) can see the roll of the dice and the results of the dice online - this removes all doubt that they are legit.
I regularly seem to have great luck with rolling high; the last character I made had to roll 4d6 4 times, give one score 18 and give one score 8. My scores ended up being (18) 17 16 15 14 (8).
Your rolling method was a bit more favourable than that in rolling 7 times and choosing the highest 6; this is a big factor with an already-lucky player.