Questions about Ruins of Bonekeep


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2/5 *

1) Can we play part 2 without playing part 1?

2) Are "excellent rewards" only available if we complete both parts?

3) Will it be deadlier than the “Temple of EE” at subtier 1-2? Will it be as deadly as last year’s special event part 2?

4) Are the rewards similar to last year's special event part 2?

I noticed that Kyle isn't GMing Bonekeep. Was his blood thirst satiated by last year's special? :)

Thanks ahead of time.

PS. That was a fast response.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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1) Yes

2) Maybe...TBD since part 2 is just now starting to be written.

3) Maybe....TBD but there won't be an auto kill in it like last year.

4) No

Sovereign Court 4/5

May I just say here that I had the privilege of playing part 1. Realized just how much I needed to improve my character optimization. For that I'm thankful. But now I'm chomping at the bit to eventually play part 2. Just hope I have an opportunity to do so being only able to attend local conventions.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Sior - Without giving too much away, did you die?

Was the level of horror an initial OH MY GOD WE CAN'T TAKE THAT THING ON level of horror, or was it more OH MY GOD IT DEALS HOW MUCH DAMAGE? YOU ROLLED A TWO! level of horror?

To be honest, I just need to know if I should wear the brown underpants if I'm playing Bonekeep ;)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator

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KestlerGunner wrote:


To be honest, I just need to know if I should wear the brown underpants if I'm playing Bonekeep ;)

Emphatic yes

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

KestlerGunner wrote:

Sior - Without giving too much away, did you die?

Was the level of horror an initial OH MY GOD WE CAN'T TAKE THAT THING ON level of horror, or was it more OH MY GOD IT DEALS HOW MUCH DAMAGE? YOU ROLLED A TWO! level of horror?

To be honest, I just need to know if I should wear the brown underpants if I'm playing Bonekeep ;)

It is well designed awesomeness. There is no overwhelming creature that auto-hits and does a crapload of damage. There ARE well designed encounters that make excellent use of tactics, terrain, and environment. In short, my favorite kind of adventure. It is deadly without simply being overwhelming numbers.

And, Sior, I hope your run at Genghis doesn't turn you into an optimizer. Instead, be aware of tactics and options, and remember that your party matters a lot. One of my concerns with all the "HOLY CRAP! I'M DYING!" threads that are cropping up around Season 4 scenarios is that the arms race will be well and truly on. I don't want to see that.

This, of course, is assuming you're serious (but knowing that you are partly tongue in cheek). See you at the store.

Edit: PS - Steven, you can expect to see future parts at both Tacticon and Genghis Con, assuming the qualifications remain the same.

Sovereign Court 4/5

Without giving much away, I was a ranger with a composite longbow (not even MW!) and a longsword (again, not MW) and regular arrows. And an owl. I had no way to get around special defenses or exploit any weaknesses. I was just sitting there shooting and shooting and shooting. It didn't do too much, I feel, but it's all I could do.

Jeff, I'm not going to be an optimizer. I just want to be prepared as much as I can be in character. I won't take a feat or power if I don't think it fits with the characters. That said, I naturally grabbed a few special arrows and got MW weapons.

And to answer KestlerGunner's question, honestly a little of both, haha. But it was never so much horror that it overplayed the fun of it. I had a great time, even with the difficulty. I wish I could play it again to try to do better. Ah well. Better luck in Part 2.

Grand Lodge 5/5

It's no scarier than having to fight your way through room after room filled with Tarrasques. ;)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Mike, does GM credit for Bonekeep work like it normally does?

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

I was told it does when I ran it.

Sovereign Court 3/5

Seth Gipson wrote:
It's no scarier than having to fight your way through room after room filled with level appropriate Tarrasques. ;)

Fixed that for you. Dont want to scare everyone away.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Does this give 1XP like any other scenario?

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Cire wrote:
Does this give 1XP like any other scenario?

Yes. And an automatic 2 Fame (no mission, though). The gold potential is a little more than double the standard scenario.

Grand Lodge 4/5

I'm playing it this week!
I'm willing to take bets on whether my hopelessly naive Grand Lodge level 5 musket specialist will live... or DIE.

Dark Archive 1/5

I cant wait to see this in action next weekend, should a huge amount of fun, blood and tears.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Sior wrote:
May I just say here that I had the privilege of playing part 1. Realized just how much I needed to improve my character optimization. For that I'm thankful. But now I'm chomping at the bit to eventually play part 2. Just hope I have an opportunity to do so being only able to attend local conventions.

This scenario is designed for extremely difficult combat (with practically no roleplay). To challenge even those who do optimize. I hope it doesn't turn everyone into combat optimizers.

Maybe next year someone *cough* John Compton *cough* can write a pair of specials designed for extremely challenging roleplay (with no combat)?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/5 RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

Belafon wrote:


This scenario is designed for extremely difficult combat (with practically no roleplay). To challenge even those who do optimize. I hope it doesn't turn everyone into combat optimizers.

I doubt this will happen. This exclusive was written to sate the ever-voracious appetite of those PFS players that like to "power-game." I have read through the scenario, and will say that it is clear what the players sitting down at the table are in for.

Whether there is judgement on those with less optimized characters rests on the shoulders of those participating, not the scenario, which is indifferent and simply put -- just plain hard.

So if challenging combat isn't your cup of tea, then simply don't participate in this scenario.

Quote:
Maybe next year someone *cough* John Compton *cough* can write a pair of specials designed for extremely challenging roleplay (with no combat)?

I would look forward to this as well :D

Dark Archive 4/5

After playing part 1 at Winter Fantasy and having Jay Buhlman stroll by and stop to watch, then mutter a "What the... how'd you do that to those monsters?" then review my sheet and the cleric's sheet real quick....

Yes.

We're totally in for it. Be warned about what level 2 will bring; he knows our tricks. ;)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

I guess I was doubley blessed (cursed?) since I got to play Bonekeep under Mike Brock last weekend.

Can't be that deadly. He only killed 3 people out of the two tables he ran. ;-)

4/5

Drogon wrote:

It is well designed awesomeness. There is no overwhelming creature that auto-hits and does a crapload of damage. There ARE well designed encounters that make excellent use of tactics, terrain, and environment. In short, my favorite kind of adventure. It is deadly without simply being overwhelming numbers.

Drogon, I will have to take your word on that, but it certainly didn't feel that way at our table. If you recall we had two people DIE in two rounds after our cleric made a poor decision in one room. That felt pretty ridiculously overwhelming to me. My personal recommendation is that this is a scenario to be avoided. I'm glad some people have gotten great feelings of accomplishment from beating this thing, but for me, this one is definitely in my bottom 5. It just felt too overwhelming to be fun, there was no story, and I still don't know what my fighter could have done differently (other than roll higher)to have improved our chances of finishing it.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

Belafon wrote:

This scenario is designed for extremely difficult combat (with practically no roleplay). To challenge even those who do optimize. I hope it doesn't turn everyone into combat optimizers.

Maybe next year someone *cough* John Compton *cough* can write a pair of specials designed for extremely challenging roleplay (with no combat)?

*Spit-take*

What? How did you get a hold of my design notes?

With a degree of seriousness, while I love scenarios that reward/promote roleplaying, at this time I have no plans to create a no-combat adventure as part of the regular scenario rotation.


Without spoiling anything, if you're into roleplay heavy adventures, I recommend:

Spoiler:
Blackrose Matrimony and The Disappeared.

That being said, I think optimization was less important than

A: Having a well rounded party with melee guys to hold the line, ranged guys that can dish out damage, and an experienced healer.

B: Playing the appropriate tier. Our party was lower level so we chose that option. I doubt we would have finished half of it had we gone high. Probably would have tpk'd.

Personally I enjoyed it very much. Pure dungeon crawl isn't my preferred type of adventure, but it can be fun if done in moderation.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Quote:
there was no story

There is a small amount of story, but admittedly, its hard to get it during the time allotted. That being said, Bonekeep should be getting advertised as (1) a dungeon crawl, and (2) VERY deadly. Players should not be surprised by the challenge of the encounters nor the lack of role-play. If they are, the GM/organizer are not advertising appropriately.

Now, as far as point two goes, so players have a gauge what "deadly" means, the average CR at low-tier is 6.5, and at high tier it's 9.5
That means you are essentially playing up even when you are playing in your appropriate tier. Actually playing up is like playing up two tiers, and is NOT RECOMMENDED.

To enhance the encounters further, Jason did an excellent job of mixing the types of encounters taking environmental factors as well as a wide array of enemy skills/talents/abilities to test characters and party mix to the extreme.

As long as players go into this event knowing exactly what they are up against, a lot of fun should be had by all. If you expect a "typical" encounter with heavy doses of diplomacy, sense motive, or other social encounters, you will be disappointed.

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
Drogon wrote:

It is well designed awesomeness. There is no overwhelming creature that auto-hits and does a crapload of damage. There ARE well designed encounters that make excellent use of tactics, terrain, and environment. In short, my favorite kind of adventure. It is deadly without simply being overwhelming numbers.

Drogon, I will have to take your word on that, but it certainly didn't feel that way at our table. If you recall we had two people DIE in two rounds after our cleric made a poor decision in one room. That felt pretty ridiculously overwhelming to me. My personal recommendation is that this is a scenario to be avoided. I'm glad some people have gotten great feelings of accomplishment from beating this thing, but for me, this one is definitely in my bottom 5. It just felt too overwhelming to be fun, there was no story, and I still don't know what my fighter could have done differently (other than roll higher)to have improved our chances of finishing it.

I'm highlighting a specific part of your post for a reason that, I hope, is obvious.

Having been the guy who ran your table, I'll point out what I thought were the mistakes I saw at that table:

1 - The group played up. It shouldn't have. It was in the middle on APL and could instead have chosen to play down. I stopped short of recommending that you play down, because I don't feel that is the GM's job, but I did try to provide a lot of warning. It should have been heeded.

2 - The cleric's player saved someone he shouldn't have. The player of the character he saved had left himself in a terrible position after being the one responsible for triggering the combat. There was no way that cleric could cast the spell he cast, then get out of there before becoming the target of multiple attacks. He died saving someone, which is admirable, but that someone shouldn't have been saved.

3 - After the cleric was dead the group pressed on. There was no healing or support left in the group. It was comprised merely of melee and/or ranged combatants and an enchantress at that point. Two of those characters were very poorly positioned to be dealing with anything at their challenge rating (the archer was busy saving money for a specific purchase so had yet to even get special material ammunition, much less a magical weapon; and the enchantress was designed around the concept of dominating social encounters).

3b - The archer and the enchantress should never even have been brought into the scenario. If you're saving money, that's fine; please don't put other characters at risk while you're doing so by being unable to contribute to combat. If you want to have a social character, that's fine, too; please don't put other characters at risk by bringing it into an admittedly combat oriented dungeon crawl.

4 - You were playing a group of individuals rather than a team. Not really your fault (or anyone at the table, really). That's just how the party makeup ended up being. Sure, there were a couple players who were obviously used to being in the spotlight, and when they proved ineffective they didn't know what to do (I think the wizard was at your table, and he was optimized to do things that are awesome against humanoid opponents, but next to useless against this scenario - he was used to "soloing" many of the adventures he played, and this one marginalized his optimizations). But your character, specifically, shines when there are other characters in the group who would be able to take advantage of what you could do. There was no one in this group who could. Again, no fault of yours, but it sure made for a "not fun" experience for your character because, frankly, you can't do everything yourself - nor should you.

Over the course of the remaining games that weekend I had two tables complete the scenario with 100% success. They played down when they had the option, they played smart by carefully observing what each room had to offer, and they had characters that were able to fully take advantage of what other characters were doing for them. Two other tables came very close to complete success, but wisely backed out when they felt they shouldn't go further. Several characters met their end through the weekend, both times at the high sub-tier tables (and the other one should not have chosen to play high, either), and once at a low sub-tier during the final encounter (and the player has stated that he made a serious error by not taking his 5-foot step; if he had, my target would have been someone else entirely).

All tables I felt were successful were tested, pushed to the limit, and eventually came out on top; sometimes cheering loudly. That's how it's supposed to go, and that is what I felt would be the "norm" for this, and why I made those comments, above.

Having said all that, I would like to point out that, for the most part, this kind of scenario is not my favorite. I like scenarios where I can show off the story (as Bob suggested, that was difficult in this one, as it is with any dungeon crawl). I like scenarios where I can play a character, myself (and special kudos go to the one table that actually provided me with a character to play through this scenario - that poor horse...he died so many different ways). I especially like scenarios where players come out of having felt like they truly had fun. I think this one was 4 for 6 on the weekend, personally. I'm truly sorry you were part of one of the two "not fun" tables.

4/5

Hey, Drogon, thanks for responding. I'm sorry I inspired such a long post, since I know your time is precious. Thanks for pointing out some weaknesses in the team that I didn't appreciate/remember.

As I remember, though, we didn't have the option of playing down, in fact I remember being specifically annoyed that at least two players at the table had spaced their characters five levels apart, so they had no option but to play 7th level characters, forcing the group up. I remember this because I had two 4th level characters I would have rather brought on this adventure. Anyway, I am glad that I have learned that part of good tactics is to have character options, and hopefully those players have learned the same thing now.

Drogon, you are an awesome GM and I am sorry we didn't provide you with a team that could handle the adventure.

5/5

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John Compton wrote:
With a degree of seriousness, while I love scenarios that reward/promote roleplaying, at this time I have no plans to create a no-combat adventure as part of the regular scenario rotation.

Not even just the one? Pleeeeeease? :D

Sovereign Court 5/5 Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
Hey, Drogon, thanks for responding. I'm sorry I inspired such a long post, since I know your time is precious.

It's Sunday; my day off. This is kind of my second job (watching gaming company boards/news). And, I'm long winded. Those three things mean you get long posts when I decide to write one out, so don't worry about sucking up my time. (-:

Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
As I remember, though, we didn't have the option of playing down, in fact I remember being specifically annoyed that at least two players at the table had spaced their characters five levels apart, so they had no option but to play 7th level characters, forcing the group up. I remember this because I had two 4th level characters I would have rather brought on this adventure.

As I ran 6 tables of Bone Keep that weekend, my memory is hardly perfect. It's certainly not going to be as good as someone who only played that senario once (and died). So, I'll bow to your recollection, though I'll give a little frowny face, "Hm. I'd swear that it was an option and I gave a vote."

If you were forced to play up, you were at the bare minimum level for that sub-tier (APL 6 in the 6-7 sub-tier). And, with the party composition as it was, that was dicey. I also recall only five players (I don't think the mage I'm remembering was at your table), meaning it was even more dicey. Then the cleric goes down. That should have been the signal to retreat. If I recall, the same player who was saved (and shouldn't have been) wanted you to press on. Someone should have told him to stuff it.

Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
Anyway, I am glad that I have learned that part of good tactics is to have character options, and hopefully those players have learned the same thing now.

Let me make sure that I'm coming across correctly via ye olde internette: Your character was fine. It was set up to take advantage of others' strengths, and set up to allow others to take advantage of his strengths. The other characters (who were left) were heavily reliant on their own skills, and did not contribute meaningfully to any kind of group play.

Now, had the cleric been still there, I think your opinion of that scenario would be very different. He would have meant a huge difference during that last encounter you played. Obviously, he would have been there to heal everyone; but he was also set to deal with those specific threats, and with your fighter also built for those guys you both would have torn through that encounter, I think. Additionally, he would have contributed blessing of fervor. Seeing as your arcane (and now I'm sure I'm wrong, that mage was at the other high sub-teir table) was not capable of casting haste, that would have been a pretty big deal.

As for the others: I know the archer is now the "standard" archer (it does a ton of damage, and is set to handle multiple styles of threats; i.e., he learned, and he spent his money). The cleric's player knows better than to save someone who shouldn't be saved; I know this because he discussed it with me. The other two? Well, we'll see.

Mimo Tomblebur wrote:

Drogon, you are an awesome GM and I am sorry we didn't provide you with a team that could handle the adventure.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I don't think your team was something you should have to apologize for. Unfortunately, you were the victim of "convention table" and suffered the worst possible consequence for it.

I hope you find your way back some day to be able to play with us, again. You'll be missed in this area. So much so that I'm going to make a bard to fill the gap. :-D

To the rest of you reading this: please take the chance to play this scenario if you have it. But, please be sure to take a character who is set up for this kind of challenge, and please be aware that your teamwork will matter, as will your general skill at role playing games. If things look dicey, you're right. Get out of there, and live to tell the tale.

(Edited in an effort to get back on the general Bone Keep discussion...)

Grand Lodge 4/5

KestlerGunner wrote:

I'm playing it this week!

I'm willing to take bets on whether my hopelessly naive Grand Lodge level 5 musket specialist will live... or DIE.

I died.

You should definitely play this scenario if you want to die.

Sovereign Court 4/5 **

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
warfteiner wrote:

After playing part 1 at Winter Fantasy and having Jay Buhlman stroll by and stop to watch, then mutter a "What the... how'd you do that to those monsters?" then review my sheet and the cleric's sheet real quick....

Yes.

We're totally in for it. Be warned about what level 2 will bring; he knows our tricks. ;)

Ha I didn't realize Jason was interested in your sheet.

You were definitely the MVP at the table, your Gunslinger rocked.

That said your party as a whole did awesome with only one death.

But you still didn't finish everything :-)

Silver Crusade 4/5 5/55/55/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

BTW, if there are any Gen Con Bonekeep GMs near RTP in North Carolina please PM me. I'd like to set up a zero round table if possible.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Florida—Miami

Quote:
I doubt this will happen. This exclusive was written to sate the ever-voracious appetite of those PFS players that like to "power-game." I have read through the scenario, and will say that it is clear what the players sitting down at the table are in for.

I found it to be extremely challenging and loved every minute of it.

Quote:
Maybe next year someone *cough* John Compton *cough* can write a pair of specials designed for extremely challenging roleplay (with no combat)?

I wonder if this person realizes you need more than 4 hours to do a special of this magnitude, more for homeplay I say, PFS has to abide by time limitations and those types of scenarios take far longer than any combat for sure.

Quote:

Drogon wrote:

It is well designed awesomeness. There is no overwhelming creature that auto-hits and does a crapload of damage. There ARE well designed encounters that make excellent use of tactics, terrain, and environment. In short, my favorite kind of adventure. It is deadly without simply being overwhelming numbers.

We totally agree!!

Quote:

Mimo Tomblebur wrote:

Drogon, I will have to take your word on that, but it certainly didn't feel that way at our table. If you recall we had two people DIE in two rounds after our cleric made a poor decision in one room. That felt pretty ridiculously overwhelming to me. My personal recommendation is that this is a scenario to be avoided. I'm glad some people have gotten great feelings of accomplishment from beating this thing, but for me, this one is definitely in my bottom 5. It just felt too overwhelming to be fun, there was no story, and I still don't know what my fighter could have done differently (other than roll higher)to have improved our chances of finishing it.

You must have known what you were getting into, so there's no excuse as the blurb for the scenario was clear; how deadly it would be and there was a reason(story) for being there so either you didn't hear it or it was not said, but we did and knew that danger/death was certain on some scale, you shoulodn't have done it if you felt you can't handle those type of scenarios. Even playing a fighter you don't have to depend on the clerics always as there are low value items in ultimate equipment that when you drop to 0 hp they immediately heal you up for a decent amount. If you choose to enter a scenario like a special without considering some outcomes, then don't be surprized by the results you get.

***********************************************************************
1st BoneKeep table of only 2 at Megacon 2013.

My girlfriend and I were lucky enough to be picked for the 1st try BoneKeep table and were excited to participate in it. Kudos to Michael Brock for running the event and seeing the look of fear and excitement on the players faces as he challenged us with creatures not readily known. It was a challenging event and of the six of us that entered only 4 came out.
To illustrate how tough the event was, the second room we entered is what killed the 2 front line fighter types and we had to continue with myself an archer as the frontline fighter, luckily I use a Zen Archer archetype which makes ranged combat a whole new ballgame for frontline. My girlfriend has a Super Cleric made for healing with versatile channeling mainly positive and we had another cleric with versatile channeling mainly negative so while one damaged; another healed. The last member was minimum level for the event but contributed overall and is a enchantment/charm type.
I can only say that to me it is a fantastic way to be challenged and look foward to other deadly/meatgrinder special scenarios to participate in!!!!

Grand Lodge 4/5

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Can we bring a pregen into this?

Dark Archive 4/5

I would not recommend it, although we did have 2 Pregens at our table that Mike Brock ran in Sydney yesterday, both unfortunately died (although Ezren and Kyra did a good job at their roles).

It is a fairly fun scenario that is solid, but it definitely requires a very well balanced party who has access to a solid amount of spells for all situations.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 *

For the purpose of feats, traits and relevant class features is Bonekeep considered to be part of Absalom or is it to far away from the city?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Melbourne

Cronge wrote:
For the purpose of feats, traits and relevant class features is Bonekeep considered to be part of Absalom or is it to far away from the city?

IIRC, its one of the many ruined siege fortifications that surround Absalom..

5/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:


Now, as far as point two goes, so players have a gauge what "deadly" means, the average CR at low-tier is 6.5, and at high tier it's 9.5
That means you are essentially playing up even when you are playing in your appropriate tier. Actually playing up is like playing up two tiers, and is NOT RECOMMENDED.

The average CR is does of course assume that monsters are CR'ed appropriatley.

Grand Lodge 5/5

tlotig wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:


Now, as far as point two goes, so players have a gauge what "deadly" means, the average CR at low-tier is 6.5, and at high tier it's 9.5
That means you are essentially playing up even when you are playing in your appropriate tier. Actually playing up is like playing up two tiers, and is NOT RECOMMENDED.

The average CR is does of course assume that monsters are CR'ed appropriatley.

Do you doubt the correctness of the CRs listed in other scenarios? What makes this one special?

Im not trying to be snarky, just wanting some clarification, cause your comment seems a bit accusatory.

2/5 *

I think what he's saying is that some creatures are better at their CR than others. By a vast margin.

When preparing for this, I'm just going to assume the author is going to be as cheesy as possible.

Dark Archive 4/5

CR is not always a valid benchmark for how tough something is. A level 10 warrior and a level 9 fighter are both CR 8, but I think it's pretty obvious who is going to win that fight.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Jason S wrote:

I think what he's saying is that some creatures are better at their CR than others. By a vast margin.

When preparing for this, I'm just going to assume the author is going to be as cheesy as possible.

Ah, good point.

Dark Archive 4/5

Brian D. Mooney wrote:
warfteiner wrote:

After playing part 1 at Winter Fantasy and having Jay Buhlman stroll by and stop to watch, then mutter a "What the... how'd you do that to those monsters?" then review my sheet and the cleric's sheet real quick....

Yes.

We're totally in for it. Be warned about what level 2 will bring; he knows our tricks. ;)

Ha I didn't realize Jason was interested in your sheet.

You were definitely the MVP at the table, your Gunslinger rocked.

That said your party as a whole did awesome with only one death.

But you still didn't finish everything :-)

Brian, we didn't finish everything, because instead of having a solid sixth player, we had a throw away with a generic prebuilt wizard, who did absolutely nothing of substance, except for waste our time, and our resources.

That still irks me to this day.

4/5

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:
CR is not always a valid benchmark for how tough something is. A level 10 warrior and a level 9 fighter are both CR 8, but I think it's pretty obvious who is going to win that fight.

Yes. And some monsters are just flat out unfair for their CR. For example, it is possible somewhere in something that is legal for PFS to fight 3 seugathis, supposedly a CR 9 challenge, so lower CR than that level 10 warrior and that level 9 fighter in a tag-team together. But 3 seugathis (with the tactical positioning they have in the combat I'm thinking of especially) have a relativly good chance to TPK even a level 9 party, so it's not a good exemplar of a CR 9 challenge at all.

2/5 *

I have some additional questions.

Is it possible to have a level 6 PC at a subtier 3-4 table as long as the APL is below 6?

The reason I ask is because I have 5 friends coming to Gencon and there are significant gaps in our XP.

Also, is it highly suicidal to play subtier 6-7 at APL 5 or 5.5? Example: Three PCs at level 5 and three at level 6.

We're prepared, own good consumables, are somewhat optimized, and have better than average problem solving skills.

Thanks. :)

5/5 *

Jason S wrote:
Is it possible to have a level 6 PC at a subtier 3-4 table as long as the APL is below 6?

As long as the APL falls into the standard range using the same rules as any other season 4 scenario, then you may play down.

Quote:
Also, is it highly suicidal to play subtier 6-7 at APL 5 or 5.5? Example: Three PCs at level 5 and three at level 6.

This is entirely up to the party. My PERSONAL opinion is that you will struggle a lot. I would not expect to complete the whole dungeon in the time allotted (which is not that horrible, btw. Complete enough rooms and not die and you'll have a good experience and some good loot).

Silver Crusade 4/5

Jason S wrote:

I have some additional questions.

Is it possible to have a level 6 PC at a subtier 3-4 table as long as the APL is below 6?

The reason I ask is because I have 5 friends coming to Gencon and there are significant gaps in our XP.

Also, is it highly suicidal to play subtier 6-7 at APL 5 or 5.5? Example: Three PCs at level 5 and three at level 6.

We're prepared, own good consumables, are somewhat optimized, and have better than average problem solving skills.

Thanks. :)

Haven't played or read the adventure yet (though I have downloaded it - need to read it to GM it at GenCon). But I'd assume playing up is pretty suicidal.

Lantern Lodge 2/5

Drogon wrote:
Mimo Tomblebur wrote:
Drogon wrote:

It is well designed awesomeness. There is no overwhelming creature that auto-hits and does a crapload of damage. There ARE well designed encounters that make excellent use of tactics, terrain, and environment. In short, my favorite kind of adventure. It is deadly without simply being overwhelming numbers.

Drogon, I will have to take your word on that, but it certainly didn't feel that way at our table. If you recall we had two people DIE in two rounds after our cleric made a poor decision in one room. That felt pretty ridiculously overwhelming to me. My personal recommendation is that this is a scenario to be avoided. I'm glad some people have gotten great feelings of accomplishment from beating this thing, but for me, this one is definitely in my bottom 5. It just felt too overwhelming to be fun, there was no story, and I still don't know what my fighter could have done differently (other than roll higher)to have improved our chances of finishing it.

I'm highlighting a specific part of your post for a reason that, I hope, is obvious.

Having been the guy who ran your table, I'll point out what I thought were the mistakes I saw at that table:

1 - The group played up. It shouldn't have. It was in the middle on APL and could instead have chosen to play down. I stopped short of recommending that you play down, because I don't feel that is the GM's job, but I did try to provide a lot of warning. It should have been heeded.

2 - The cleric's player saved someone he shouldn't have. The player of the character he saved had left himself in a terrible position after being the one responsible for triggering the combat. There was no way that cleric could cast the spell he cast, then get out of there before becoming the target of multiple attacks. He died saving someone, which is admirable, but that someone shouldn't have been saved.

3 - After the cleric was dead the group pressed on. There was no healing or support...

I took my Merciful healer cleric though this and it was one of the roughest games I've had with him. He was lvl 3 at the time and I had bought a Scroll of BOL as soon as i was able to. that last encounter i had it out and ready to be used (via a CL check) and ended the scenario with 0 spells left and was using a wand in combat.

One reason no one died was a great spell called Shield Other.

Thanks again for a great game Drogon. Was one of the highlights of Genhis. Cant wait to play part 2 in August. (sadly not with the cleric)

Sczarni

My Necromancer survived but did not complete this at Strategicon and the party failed to get the special item rewards. A lack of pregame planning by the party is what led to our failure in my opinion. Two players were running pregens and one actually felt it was appropriate to build his character from GM credits 30 minutes before the game began. I had played with the player in question earlier in the day, had found him to be quite competent and was under the impression the character he was bringing to our table would be a good addition. Instead, he builds a PC at the table in a class which it quickly became evident he was not familiar with. The rest of the table was too busy telling him how to attribute his stats and skill points rather than discuss how we might want to handle any possible challenges of a dungeon crawl.

So we dove in effectively fighting blind and still managed to get to the final room before disaster struck and we were forced to flee. Worse, we cleared but sadly did not "complete" the room containing the special item so had to see that get crossed off our chronicle sheets.

The real kicker was that the PC of the player who built him at the damn table died so the rest of the party had to chip in to pay for his Raise Dead since he didn't have enough gold or PP for it.

Needless to say, I did not leave that table happy.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

MrRetsej wrote:
The real kicker was that the PC of the player who built him at the damn table died so the rest of the party had to chip in to pay for his Raise Dead since he didn't have enough gold or PP for it.

(bolding mine, for emphasis)

Forgive my asking, but why so? If you felt that his PC died because he played badly and didn't understand his character and made the party worse, why did you decide to pay pretend-money for the privilege?

Quote:
Needless to say, I did not leave that table happy.

Your choice. It sounds like you had a good time between stepping foot in the dungeon and time being called. And that's what you're paying time and money for. That's where great stories come from. Nobody says you have to walk away happy, but it sounds like you could have.

Sczarni

I got pressured into it, frankly, as he was close friends with the rest of the players at the table and I didn't want to be the lone a*****e who wouldn't help out another player. Particularly since I was very likely to be playing at tables with some of these players again (and it turned out I did) during the remainder of the convention.

I had a decent time at the game up until time was called when it was then made clear that the player couldnt afford his raise dead and the rest of the party was all too willing to help their friend. When I received my chronicle sheet and saw ten of the 14 items crossed off the list, a rather cool special item crossed off and only 1249gp awarded for playing normal progression at low tier even though we cleared all but the the last room (and didnt complete the special item room), the 890gp share for that raise dead left a bad taste in my mouth that lingers.

Grand Lodge 5/5

I guess I would have asked why he was building a character right before game time. Was it because he heard it was deadly and did not want to risk a PC he had invested time into? If that was the case, and it sounds like it might be, I don't think I would have chipped in to Raise the "throwaway PC". If on the other hand, he was creating one to have a PC in Tier with the rest of the table, well..that's how it goes sometimes. I agree with Chris, it sounds like you had fun until you were "pressured" to chip in your hard earned rewards. But...they were YOUR rewards, to use how you saw fit. Sorry it did't end as you would have liked. Hopefully you did have fun and have some good stories from you con experience.

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