I was wondering if anyone had a goo place for calculating CR when it comes to gestalt gameplay, or perhaps a formula I can note down to make things simpler.
A new game will contain three gestalt characters of level 10 each with 62k wbl.
Well, if 2 enemies of the same CR equal an ECL = CR+2 (example, two CR 3 ogres = ECL of 5) then I think a gestalt would be between CR+1 and CR+2. Since they don't gain any action economy for being gestalt I think CR+1 feels about right.
What point buy are you using? That will impact their CR as well. Hope that helps. Good luck!
Well, if 2 enemies of the same CR equal an ECL = CR+2 (example, two CR 3 ogres = ECL of 5) then I think a gestalt would be between CR+1 and CR+2. Since they don't gain any action economy for being gestalt I think CR+1 feels about right.
What point buy are you using? That will impact their CR as well. Hope that helps. Good luck!
The stats are 16,16,14,14,12,12. Bit high, but it's meant to be a high power fun oriented game, which I realize makes balancing a hassle.
I need to read up on the whole ECL/CR ruleset, normally we wing what fits for the situation...
My gestalt group is very heavy handed, so when a combat calls for 1 enemy, I put 2 of the same, and if it is a group of 4 enemies, I usually add 3 more. Some times I will add an improved template on some of them as well.
most of the time with gestalt, you are going to have a party with ALOT of hit points, and rarely are there bad saves. This means that the fighter are going to cut through enemies like butter, and you wizards can take a licking and keep on kicking.
If you want to do it properly, all NPCs should also be given gestalt, at least, that is what it said in the gestalt rules I read.
I would say CR+1 would be about right. Gestalt adds flexibility more than power.
CR+1 or Cr times 1.5 at higher levels sounds about right to me.
I've taken to just bumping enemy HPs up to the nearest 5 or 10 (depending on their status as "cannon fodder" or "potential challenge) and I raise all their ACs and Saves by 1 or 2 points and bump up their to-hit where it's actually possible to hit the highest AC players without completely buttf*@*ing the other guys.
Worked pretty well so far.
This has been really helpful, I was always told that gestalt makes the characters more overpowered than varied, but thanks to action economy, they really feel just more varied and different(not that it's a problem in pf).
Any chance someone could suggest a sample enemy group. We're gonna fight mostly undead, as the plot is basically a group of aasimars clearing the land of the undead scourge.
Leader(paladin/bard), Speedster(living monolith houseruled/air wizard), Rager(urban barbarian/celestial bloodline sorcerer) so melee and magic is pretty oomph. A group of skeleton archers would be perfect to stop us(me) from flying all the time.
Wraiths and such would also be nice. Might wanna wait a few levels though.
By the book it says +1-2 for an average encounter, but you have to be careful. An "epic" in counter that is 3-4 lvls above a regular party, can easily get out of hand when you do a 4-6 above a gestalt party.
Well, you have a smallish group (3 lvl 10 PC's) which acts to offset the gestalt effect, but you have a very high point buy allowance which is probably at least +1 CR. Wealth by level is right on. So, you're looking at an APL of 11 or 12.
So you should look at encounters that range from 9 or 10 up to 13, 14, or possibly even 15 (but tread carefully). That is a very wide range, allowing for big, powerful monsters as well as minions or swaths of minor enemies. Good luck!
Thanks everyone for the help, it is really appriciated. Till now I've basically picked npc's that fit the situation and scale em accordingly, but it can be time consuming and tedious in the long run, and with the NPC index book thing, I can easily find a class and have it ready with just the CR.
Any suggestions for a basic two man necromancer team with some undeads on them, not the stats, just a rough estimate, like, two level 9 clerics with X amount of zombies, Y skeleton archers and Y amount of ghouls.
First act will involve taking over an outpost sort of location, so they will be defending against three aasimars.
So, two Undead Lord Clerics (Gestalted with an Oracle of Bones or JuJu Oracle? I always Gestalt important NPCs in a Gestalt campaign), 3 Skeleton archers, 3 Ghasts, and 10 zombies.
Vary the zombie/skeleton types. Throw in some JuJu zombies with class levels, or Apocalypse zombies or something along with the regular cannon fodder "Die in one hit because lol" zombies, and then make the skeletons Burning, Bleeding, or Multiplying (or one of each or a combination of them all at once?).
Should make for an interesting and challenging encounter. Might be slightly too challenging in the numbers department but you can always bump the zombies down a few to like 6-7 or even 5.
Think I found out how this works.
First I find APL, which is ten, because 10 levels times three divided by three, ten.
Then as you guys said, Cr+1-2 because of their utility and varied powers, but not too much because of action economy. CR 10-12 is between 9,600xp - 19,200xp and that's my "pool" for how many monsters I can put out there.
A young green dragon is CR7(3,200), and he might have three harpy vassals CR4(1,200x3=3,600) for a total of 6,800. Leaving me with 2,800xp worth of monsters left. Having the dragon fight in an environment perfect for him and bad for PC's could bump his CR by +1, making him 4,800xp instead, giving me enough xp left to buff the harpies by either cr+1 with loot/stats or a template.
Or something like that?