I'm looking at the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype (found in the APG) for the Fighter class, and trying to understand the Improved Balance (L 11) and Perfect Balance (L 15) class features and how they interact with each other.
Improved Balance: "... the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a two-weapon warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light weapon with the normal light weapon penalties."
Perfect Balance: " ... the penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1 for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light weapon penalties."
In conjunction with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, I understand the following attack penalties to be correct at L 11 (ignoring iterative attacks for simplicity's sake) ...
TWF with one or two light weapons: -1 (primary weapon)/-1 (secondary or off-hand weapon).
TWF with two one-handed weapons: -2/-2.
And at L 15 ...
TWF with one or two light weapons: -0/-0.
But I'm confused about TWF at L 15 with two one-handed weapons. The second sentence seems to repeat the L 11 class feature. So is the Fighter still using the -2/-2 penalties (like at L 11), or does he reduce the penalties by 1 down to -1/-1?
I need to get a straight answer by Friday/Saturday, if at all possible. :)
I would read it as your first guess, they both say "normal light weapon penalties" so yea...I mean yes that way you only end up with wielding 2 one-handed weapons and not really gaining anything at lvl 15...but it's still not a bad thing to be able to wield 2 one handed weapons with only a -2 to both hands
lvl 11, you could now wield 2 scimitars, all your weapon feats work with both, including improved critical (or just get both keen), thats 2 weapons with a 15-20 crit range...add in some crit feats and thats some major problems for your enemies...unless of course your GM screws you buy pitting you against things that are immune to crit /cry lol
As for that archetype...if all you are wanting is lessened penalties ask your GM about Sawtooth Sabres, one feat (exotic weapon proficiency) and you can dual wield them while only taking the light weapon penalties (-2/-2)
Design Manager
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Basically, if you selected the two one-handers option at level 11, than when you get to 15 your "normal" penalty for the one-hander/light weapon option -1/-1 (since you didn't get the first reduction at 11), so that's what you use for your one-hander/one-hander since they're treated as a one hander/light combo. If you went with the one-hander/light weapon option, you have no penalty.
Level 11 includes an "Alternatively" in it, showing that it is an either/or option. Level 15 has removed that, so you obtain both of the listed benefits.
I would rather it actually be the way Ssalarn put it...just the wording to me is off is all...again I say I would be more comfortable with it being you get the "normal" penalties at lvl 15 by meaning it includes using the lvl 11 ability also, so you get a -1/-1...I agree with this, even though its harder for me to "read" it that way lol
I think you understand it correctly, that the penalties to attack decrease when fighting with one or two light weapons, but stay at -2 when fighting with two one-handed weapons.
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Design Manager
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"Improved Balance (Ex): At 11th level, the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a two-weapon warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light weapon with the normal light weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 3."
"Perfect Balance (Ex): At 15th level, the penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1 for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 4."
At level 11 your "normal" penalties are -2/-2, or -4/-4. You can choose to either reduce the -2/-2 to a -1 (your new "normal") , or take that
-4/-4 and treat it as your -2/-2.
At 15th level, you change the -1/-1 to a -0/-0 if you went with that option, or your -2/-2 becomes -1/-1. Either way, the "normal" penalties for fighting with a one-handed and light weapon are decreased by 1. So, if you chose the options to fight with two one-handers at level 11, your new "normal" for fighting with a one-handed weapon and a light weapon is -1/-1. Since you treat your pair of one handers as a one hander and a light, you use the -1/-1 penalty, just like you would if the exact same character were to drop one of his one-handers and pick up a light. That's "normal" for him.
The text doesn't say you have to pick one and stay with it, does it?
I was under the impression that you can fight with either onehanded/light at +0 penalties, or with two one handers at -1/-1.
Yea I think it depends on what you are wielding, I don't think you actually have to choose and then stick with that forever
^ What Drakk said. These things are usually made clear, like sorcerer bloodlines (once picked cannot be changed) kind of line, which clearly isn't here.
Fun fact, I just realized that Mobility Archetype is almost better at twf than twf because it let's you charge and attack with all your blades, the -2 twf penalty is removed trough charge bonuses.
Also realized I can use Vital strike but cosmetically, the bonus damage is from striking with both weapons, woop!
Thank you all for your input! It has been quite helpful. :)
So far, I'm leaning towards the -1/-1 interpretation for a L 15 Two-Weapon Warrior wielding two one-handed weapons.
Does anyone else care to weigh in or link to a definitive thread (preferably with a answer from a rules-savvy Paizo person)?