Venture-Captain, Massachusetts—Central & West
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Please see the note on the Gunsmithing feat in the Ultimate Combat section of Additional Resources:
The following two feats function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play than they do in regular games:
Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm. Resold items gained through this feat are worth half the actual cost paid, not half the regular market value for the item. No PC can purchase a gun without this feat, even if they possess the Amateur Gunslinger or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm) feats.
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the main feats you want are
point blank shot
rapid reload
precise shot
deadly aim
rapid shot
the order is up to you, but the first should be point blank shot and either precise or deadly aim or rapid reload.
rapid shot is likely 4th or 5th. if you are going to get a double pistol then wait on rapid reload as that is per gun type so wont work with your starter pistol (and I think it is 3rd level at the earliest that you will have the fame for a double pistol).
I took precise shot last as it was situational. not sure if I would do this again, as even against touch ac I would still miss a lot when firing into melee.
after this there are good feats to take (extra grit being a good one), but none that are as "essential" as these first five
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Also what feats are a good choice for a level one GS? Is "Extra Grit" necessary or worthwhile?Depends on your stats. I would say Precise Shot is probably a must have, at least. Gunslingers are feat hungry during their entire career.
STR 12
DEX 14CON 14
INT 14
WIS 15
CHA 10
I looked into Point Blank Shot which is the prereq for Precise Shot. It makes sense, but would it be a better choice at first level than having extra Grit? The Rapid Reload (Pistol) is a must, so that won't change. I am uncertain how useful the grit actions (whatever they are called) are, but they sound useful.
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Please see the note on the Gunsmithing feat in the Ultimate Combat section of Additional Resources:
The following two feats function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play than they do in regular games: Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm.
Okay, the reduced price is half the cost of the bullets and powder? Apologies, I do not have my books, and I got caught in a mental rut about this....LOL
Venture-Agent, Texas—Houston
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Unless you're a mysterious Stranger or Pistolero (who can spend grit for extra damage at first level), having more grit is not all that useful until you hit 7th level when you get Targeting and Dead Shot.
Take other stuff at first level, and save extra grit for later, when you have more need of it to perform your deeds.
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I have had limited use out of Targeting. Head shots are fun if a creature isnt immune to mind effecting stuff (so not of use on a fair number of creatures). Deadshot can be useful.. and can often get you back that grit you just used. I generally saving grit to clear the gun.
I thoroughly recommend Clustered Shot (DR will become your bane) and like suggested above Extra Grit. Improved Critical is always nice.
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This is mostly an "Advice" kind of thread, but consider you're going vs touch AC all the time, so while common wisdom is to get Point Blank and Precise Shot... long-term, you might be fine without 'em if you want to be more versatile earlier :)
Even though you're fighting against touch AC up to your first range increment, keep in mind that you s till take a -4 penalty when firing into melee. At lower levels that can really kill your ability to fight, so I always recommend Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot early on. They will help you in combat, even at higher levels. Many encounters take place with-in 30' anyways, so +1 damage is awesome! It doesn't hurt your versatility at all--in fact, I would argue it's better in the long run because you want to make sure that you can confirm criticals easier (I've seen enemies in melee survive when a critical isn't confirmed, especially against a Gunslinger). Never assume that lower AC is going to be easier to overcome--it should be, but sometimes the dice just hate you!
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Okay, the reduced price is half the cost of the bullets and powder? Apologies, I do not have my books, and I got caught in a mental rut about this....LOLPlease see the note on the Gunsmithing feat in the Ultimate Combat section of Additional Resources:
The following two feats function differently in Pathfinder Society Organized Play than they do in regular games: Gunsmithing does not grant the ability to craft firearms, ammunition, or black powder. Rather, it allows the purchase of bullets, pellets, black powder, and alchemical cartridges (with 1 rank in Craft [alchemy]) at the listed reduced price, but does not grant a discount on the purchase of any firearm.
You pay half price for alchemical cartridges, and 10% of the price for everything else. Firearms are not discounted.
Edit: Also, I would highly recommend a *minimum* of 16 DEX. Dex is both your to hit and your damage (at later levels). You may also sometimes see your acrobatics skill getting a workout.
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This is an informative thread for me as well, as I am working on building a Musket Master Gunslinger... Since you get Rapid Reload (musket) with the MM, I am still thinking of my two feats.
It does seem that down the line the Gunslinger's need for cash is actually less than many other characters (fighters getting weapons and armor, wizards buying spells, scrolls, and the like). Ammo prices don't really go up, and you can only improve your weapon so fast.
I was thinking that I'd for sure get Point Blank Shot, but was thinking of doing something non-combat with my other feat. Not quite sure yet.
6gp per paper cartridge will be a little oppressive in the first couple of levels, so was thinking of working up my Craft(Alchemy) to use for my day job. Really, it actually makes sense to push this up to be able to get my day job up above 30... however, without the Prosperous boon, it probably doesn't make sense to get potions of the spell that gives +5 to craft...
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This is an informative thread for me as well, as I am working on building a Musket Master Gunslinger... Since you get Rapid Reload (musket) with the MM, I am still thinking of my two feats.
It does seem that down the line the Gunslinger's need for cash is actually less than many other characters (fighters getting weapons and armor, wizards buying spells, scrolls, and the like). Ammo prices don't really go up, and you can only improve your weapon so fast.
I was thinking that I'd for sure get Point Blank Shot, but was thinking of doing something non-combat with my other feat. Not quite sure yet.
6gp per paper cartridge will be a little oppressive in the first couple of levels, so was thinking of working up my Craft(Alchemy) to use for my day job. Really, it actually makes sense to push this up to be able to get my day job up above 30... however, without the Prosperous boon, it probably doesn't make sense to get potions of the spell that gives +5 to craft...
At the early levels, 6GP can be a pain. The first three sessions (which bring you to level 2) should be devoted to making yourself a bit sturdier, not for what is, essentially, more dakka. I advocate making the weapon masterwork as one of your first things, and then focusing on some other items. Saving for a Mithril chainshirt, Belt of Dexterity, and making your weapon +1 are all great early things to reach for, and as a Musket Master I love having paper rounds once I hit level 3. With that being said, having a couple with you isn't too bad--I generally fire about ten rounds a session (average, some go more, some less) and I try to have at least ten alchemical rounds on me. I love my paper rounds and I don't buy anything else anymore, save the odd flare round if it's needed, or other bullets.
As for Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, I stand by my initial observations that you want to maximize your capabilities in combat. You are a combat character; your character is designed for that, though you have some power outside of combat (survival as a class skill, for instance!). Focus more on dakka than something else, but at the same time remember that you are a competent survivalist at the same time.
Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Frederick
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Here is my 2 cents:
Class: Gunslinger/Musket Master (Level 5 a reflection to build up to)
Race: Human
Abilities:
Str: 10, Dex: 21/23, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Chr: 7
Feats: Rapid Shot (from Musket Master), Extra Grit, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim
Skill Training: Acrobatics (5 Ranks), Craft Alchemy (1 Rank), Heal (4 Ranks), Perception (5 Ranks), Sleight of Hand (5 Ranks), Stealth (5 Ranks), Survival (5 Ranks).
Items: +1 Musket, +1 Leather, +2 Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Alchemical Cartridge (paper)(as many as you can carry).
Future Feats: Vital Strike.
Overall the Musket Master can out DPR most of the other firearm builds and by 3rd level he can reload as a swift action with alchemical cartridges.
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I have a policy of trying to buy what ammunition I need to use , from a session.. in that session. Typically i spend 120 gold a session on Paper Cartridges. Thats 20 shots. Occasionaly (as im now Level 8) Ive shot over that self imposed limit on quite a few occasions (when you are firing 4 shots a round thanks to haste.. you just watch the gold flying out of your gun.. which is why locally we are known as Goldslingers) After a while you do build up a reserve of paper cartridges so you can afford to go a session without buying.
Id also suggest buying bullets of 'other' varieties when you can afford them. Adamantine rounds, cold iron and silver rounds. Im talking bullets here (Ive had past dms very iffy on the concept of incorporating such metals into alchemical paper cartridges (essentially its a bullet , powder wrapped up in paper and treated, so i just avoid doing it) Adamantine rounds are particuarly good against Animated objects , golems etc. Generally you are relying on other characters telling you about monsters though (due normally to the gunslinger lack of diverse knowledge skills) and thus DR's.
(Im using adamantine as a catch all word here. You can replace it with others like cold iron etc)
This is why i find Vital strike so useful. As the use of bullets is cutting down attacks to possibly just one a round, you want to get as much damage as you can out of that one adamantine bullet.
Don't neglect your AC. When the monster finds out that you are the only one really hurting it via your adamantine rounds he will go for you. Generally as you are wearing light armor thats an issue.
Oil of Bless Weapon is also very good. Remember to record how many shots you use and keep a very clear track on your character sheet of what 'special' rounds you have. Ive had dms who are very particular to detail.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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While I would agree with Kurt if damage per turn were your only goal, Pathfinder Society play in particular benefits from a bit of focus on out of combat skills as well. Here's what I currently have:
Level 2 (Gunslinger(Pistolero) 1/Urban Ranger Guide 1)
STR 10
DEX 18 (+2 from human)
CON 13
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 12
Feats: Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot.
Traits: Survivor [+1 initiative, Sense Motive is a class skill], Ease of Faith [+1 diplomacy, it is a class skill]
Skill ranks in: Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate, Disable Device, Heal, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge(Dungeoneering), Craft (Alchemy), Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Stealth Spellcraft
Items:
Guns: Masterwork Pistol, Dragon Pistol
Ammo (mundane, powder cost included): 30 bullets (1g1s each), 10 adamantium (7g2s each), 10 Cold Iron (1g2s each), 10 Silver (3g6s each), 10 ghost bullets (21g1s each, must be purchased in blocks of 10),
Ammo (Alchemical): 5 dragon's breath (20g each, good for swarms), 5 salt shot (6g each, does nonlethal), 5 entangling (20g each, 30g cheaper than Tanglefoot Bags), 20 paper shot (6g each), 10 paper dry load (36g each), 1 tracer bullet (100 g)
Other: Wand of Cure Light Wounds, spring loaded wrist sheaths, cloak of resistance
Future purchase list: Double-barreled Pistol, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, Handy Haversack, Hat of Disguise, Gloves of Reconnaissance
Future feats: Vital Strike, Cluster Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Quick draw, Deadly Aim, Extra Grit, Signature Deed, Ricochet Shot
Future levels:
Level 3: Urban Ranger Guide: The extra two feats at level 3 will be a huge boost, given the number of feats I need.
Levels 4-7: Gunslinger. It's necessary to get that dex bonus to damage.
Levels 8-9: Fighter. MOAR FEATS.
Levels 10-12: Unsure.
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Point blank and precise asap.
Most pathfinder groups have all the coordination of a herd of cats. The fighter is going to run up and hit things as soon as his turn starts. You will likely have a -4 for shooting into melee, and with the meatshield there providing a +4 cover bonus for an effective -8 to hit. That's going to result in a lot of misses early on.
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Point blank and precise asap.
Most pathfinder groups have all the coordination of a herd of cats. The fighter is going to run up and hit things as soon as his turn starts. You will likely have a -4 for shooting into melee, and with the meatshield there providing a +4 cover bonus for an effective -8 to hit. That's going to result in a lot of misses early on.
This pretty much sums up why I took everything so early. As a human, I took both Precise Shot and Point-Blank Shot at level 1. Never regretted it.
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Ditto. its very hard to control what others will do at the best of times. You can anticipate that X will do Y because thats what they always do, but that is never fullproof. Making sure you can still hit the target early on when in melee is just Gold.
This is pretty much spot-on. You can't control others, and more often than not you're going to have ap arty you're not familiar with. In order to maximize your party, you need to be able to handle yourself in combat. As a Musket Master at level 1 you're already sufficiently gimped because you can only attack every other round. Each attack you make should be at maximum effect, and so feats should generally be combat oriented for us.
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I see most combats occuring at closer ranges, (Police Officers assume most gun fights happen at or around 21 feet, which is way to close if they are charging you and your weapon is not out, btw) I have been looking at pistols, since they are cheaper and I can have a brace (2 or more) which I can rely on for multiple shots in a pinch. The slow reload of a musket is daunting to me.
Aside from range, what is the advantage of the musket? Both a pistol and a musket double as a club when reloading is not possible.
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I see most combats occuring at closer ranges, (Police Officers assume most gun fights happen at or around 21 feet, which is way to close if they are charging you and your weapon is not out, btw) I have been looking at pistols, since they are cheaper and I can have a brace (2 or more) which I can rely on for multiple shots in a pinch. The slow reload of a musket is daunting to me.
Aside from range, what is the advantage of the musket? Both a pistol and a musket double as a club when reloading is not possible.
Let's see.. with Ol' Painless (+1 distance) I'm touching out to 80 ft, I do 1d12 instead of 1d8/1d6 (depending on flavor/size of pistol) and when and if I use my musket as a pistol whipping thumper (which I've done TWICE in seven levels) 1d10 bludgeoning versus 1d6/1d4 with a pistol.
Musket Master's rapid reload is helpful, like has been pointed out, reloading it as a 1 handed firearm @ 3rd level. Add in the things I can do with Alchemist (Grenadier) and I can be truly nasty in a distance fight. @5th level you add your dex to your damage and reduce your misfire by 1, add in 'Reliable' and you're @ 0 with powder/bullet or 1 with paper cartridges.
Add in other feats like Far Shot, the ability to spend grit to extend your range and I can hit (as a touch) up to 240' with 2 grit (for those really fast/distance bad guys)
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I see most combats occuring at closer ranges, (Police Officers assume most gun fights happen at or around 21 feet, which is way to close if they are charging you and your weapon is not out, btw) I have been looking at pistols, since they are cheaper and I can have a brace (2 or more) which I can rely on for multiple shots in a pinch. The slow reload of a musket is daunting to me.
Aside from range, what is the advantage of the musket? Both a pistol and a musket double as a club when reloading is not possible.
You can move back to 40' from your target, right from the get-go, staying out of Channel range, and still attack his Touch AC.
Greater base damage potential.
Much longer range for the few combats where the opponent is far away, or a flyer able to stay out of reach.
Note that you won't be able to afford that second pistol until you have a fair amount of fame, too.
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Saving for a Mithril chainshirtIf you're saving for Mithril armor, save a bit more (okay, 3,000gp is probably more than "a bit") so you can afford Mithril Kikko; it counts as light armor for everything except proficiency, it's max Dex bonus is high enough to not matter without some SERIOUS buffs, and since it has no armor check penalty, there's literally no penalty for non-proficiency.
I will have to remember that, its especially handy as barding
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Saving for a Mithril chainshirtIf you're saving for Mithril armor, save a bit more (okay, 3,000gp is probably more than "a bit") so you can afford Mithril Kikko; it counts as light armor for everything except proficiency, it's max Dex bonus is high enough to not matter without some SERIOUS buffs, and since it has no armor check penalty, there's literally no penalty for non-proficiency.
The only characters who I think SHOULDN'T do this are arcane casters who can't ignore arcane spell failure in light armor and classes that lose things for wearing any armor at all (like monks)...
You're going to end up spending a lot more on the armor, which in all honesty is not really necessary. You could use that additional money on your weapon, or other items to increase efficiency. What you are spending is more than making your gun a +1 weapon. Plus you're reducing your base movement speed.
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Mithral counts as one category lighter, so it won't slow you down.
Indeed. Mithril Kikko armor has three drawbacks:
- Arcane spell failure: 10% (ignored by bard and magus, overcome by Arcane Armor Training)
- The fact that it's armor at all (for monks)
- It costs 4,030gp
If those aren't enough to chase you off, it's the best light armor around.
And the price alone is worth noting for being THE reason not to get it. It is far more expensive than a simple Chain Shirt and the benefit is +1 AC provided by the armor. As a Gunslinger I'm not too worried about the AC, though I wanted to upgrade my armor to begin with because I know later on I don't have a real tank.
As I said, 3,000 GP could be spent making your weapon +1, or getting items tht you can use to make your character better.
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Mithral counts as one category lighter, so it won't slow you down.
Indeed. Mithril Kikko armor has three drawbacks:
- Arcane spell failure: 10% (ignored by bard and magus, overcome by Arcane Armor Training)
- The fact that it's armor at all (for monks)
- It costs 4,030gp
If those aren't enough to chase you off, it's the best light armor around.
I have darkleaf studded armor
3 armor max dex is 7 no ac and 775gp
and your wearing crazy leaves and twigs and whatnot
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Indeed. Mithril Kikko armor has three drawbacks:
- Arcane spell failure: 10% (ignored by bard and magus, overcome by Arcane Armor Training)
- The fact that it's armor at all (for monks)
- It costs 4,030gp
If those aren't enough to chase you off, it's the best light armor around.
+1 Mithral Kikko costs more than a +2 Mithral Chain shirt. It's a pretty big investment for a game that ends at level 12, especially since you probably won't be able to afford Mithral Kikko before level 5, and will be stuck in suboptimal armor until that happens.
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+1 Mithral Kikko costs more than a +2 Mithral Chain shirt. It's a pretty big investment for a game that ends at level 12, especially since you probably won't be able to afford Mithral Kikko before level 5, and will be stuck in suboptimal armor until that happens.Perhaps I should go back and review my chronicle sheets, because I can't remember if my alchemist bought his at level 2 or 3, but it was DEFINITELY before level 5.
Gunslingers are ranged combat. Stupidly-high AC is not an absolute necessity. With that being said, like constitution it isn't something you should ignore, unless you're playing with a consistent group that you know involves people who can cover you. Most of the time, though, you can't rely on that.
In order to get a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt, one needs to spend 2,100 GP total. It provides the same bonuses as Mithril Kikko, but Mithril Kikko costs 4,030 GP. That is a net gain with the Mithral Chain Shirt of 1,870 GP, which is damn-near complete to making a weapon +1 in all respects. On top of that, the +1 Mithral Chain Shirt can be obtained faster and easier, with less fuss placed on "playing up a tier". I'll be honest: I'm not fond of this concept, because it breaks the wealth of characters in specific brackets. Plus you don't require as much fame in order to get it!
Oh, and now you can start enchanting your armor instead of having to wait for another 1,000 GP to make your Kikko +1, and then you can work on enchanting.
It's all a matter of economics, and as was said this game ends for your character at level 12. You should focus on what makes sense for your character in terms of wealth, not a true min-max mindset.
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I'm playing a new gunslinger as well, but I'm a little worried about long-term viability.
I'd like to use double-barreled pistols, but the misfire rate of 2 plus 1 for paper cartridges is terrifying. The Reliable and Greater Reliable weapon enchants could fix that, but I'm not sure if I can even get those.
The upgrade rules mention upgrading a gun to/from +1, +2, etc, but they don't say anything about adding properties (distance, reliable, lucky, etc.)
On top of that, given the rarity of firearms in Golarion I'm assuming that guns as loot in scenarios are going to be prohibitively rare/non-existent.
Can you use the upgrade rules to put properties on a gun?
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I'm playing a new gunslinger as well, but I'm a little worried about long-term viability.
I'd like to use double-barreled pistols, but the misfire rate of 2 plus 1 for paper cartridges is terrifying. The Reliable and Greater Reliable weapon enchants could fix that, but I'm not sure if I can even get those.
The upgrade rules mention upgrading a gun to/from +1, +2, etc, but they don't say anything about adding properties (distance, reliable, lucky, etc.)
On top of that, given the rarity of firearms in Golarion I'm assuming that guns as loot in scenarios are going to be prohibitively rare/non-existent.
Can you use the upgrade rules to put properties on a gun?
Reliable is equivalent to a +1.. Greater is = +3.
That being said, I think if you want double barrel pistols, look into pistol training with the Pistolero archetype. Pistol Training reduces misfire by if I recall.
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That being said, I think if you want double barrel pistols, look into pistol training with the Pistolero archetype. Pistol Training reduces misfire by if I recall.Actually, it only decreases the increased misfire chance from misfiring...
To make that a little more understandable, it might help to have an example.
In the scenario Kash mentioned, the double-barreled pistol using paper cartridges misfires on a natural roll of 1-3. If he were to roll a natural 2, the pistol would misfire, gain the broken condition, and have its misfire chance increase by 4, to 1-7.
A level 5+ pistolero would start with the same 1-3 misfire chance, but after misfiring, the chance only increases by 2, for a misfire chance of 1-5.
Of course, at level 13+, the Pistol Training feature makes it so a pistolero NEVER misfires a one-handed firearm, but that's just above the level of normal PFS play.
That being said, so long as you have at least one point of grit left, the worst a misfire will do is cause you to waste your next standard action to fix it with your Quick Clear deed; if you're willing to SPEND a point of grit, that drops down to a move action. Annoying, but not crippling.
And no, you can't expect to find guns as loot... pretty much ever, so you'll be stuck waiting for the fame needed to cover the cost of the weapon. Of course, you COULD always pick up Rapid Reload for a regular pistols, which, along with paper cartridges drops the reload to a free action, and that would render the second barrel unnecessary...
Well I think if you want to reduce misfires.. you can also go with a dwarven character.. they get something like -1/4 misfire chance per level.
If you are worried about armor, don't forget to buy a buckler.
-j
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I'm playing a new gunslinger as well, but I'm a little worried about long-term viability.
I'd like to use double-barreled pistols, but the misfire rate of 2 plus 1 for paper cartridges is terrifying. The Reliable and Greater Reliable weapon enchants could fix that, but I'm not sure if I can even get those.
The upgrade rules mention upgrading a gun to/from +1, +2, etc, but they don't say anything about adding properties (distance, reliable, lucky, etc.)
On top of that, given the rarity of firearms in Golarion I'm assuming that guns as loot in scenarios are going to be prohibitively rare/non-existent.
Can you use the upgrade rules to put properties on a gun?
Reliable is equivalent to a +1.. Greater is = +3.
That being said, I think if you want double barrel pistols, look into pistol training with the Pistolero archetype. Pistol Training reduces misfire by if I recall.
It only reduces the misfire chance for a second misfire. Instead of the value rising by 4 (meaning 1-7 for a musket loaded with paper shot), it raises by 2 (1-5).
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Of course, you COULD always pick up Rapid Reload for a regular pistols, which, along with paper cartridges drops the reload to a free action, and that would render the second barrel unnecessary...
I actually started out that way. Ended up going with doubles because I plan on abusing the Both Barrels mechanic.
As I read it each of the shots in my attack routine can be a double shot. I actually put together a Double-Barrel gunslinger build that can get off 14 (highly inaccurate) shots in a turn, assuming no misfires.
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Saving for a Mithril chainshirtIf you're saving for Mithril armor, save a bit more (okay, 3,000gp is probably more than "a bit") so you can afford Mithril Kikko; it counts as light armor for everything except proficiency, it's max Dex bonus is high enough to not matter without some SERIOUS buffs, and since it has no armor check penalty, there's literally no penalty for non-proficiency.
Hey BigNorseWolf, Are there any restrictions on the Eastern Armors? Shouldn't there be due to supply and availability? I know of no such restriction, but it seems there should be! LOL
PS (I am not complaining there isn't btw!)
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If there was, there would also be restrictions on weapons that Samurai and Ninjas could use as well, which would gimp the class outright at character creation. It would be like asking if there's restrictions on firearms at character creation because firearms aren't Always Available, and so a gunslinger should not be able to star the game with a firearm.
