Gunslinger: Reloading needs an errata or a nerf

[Theomniadept]

Lazoth wrote:

pika626 wrote:

... And there's also the creation of the Pouch of Infinite Ammunition, which my current party has made use of. It costs a total 6000gp and lasts forever except in an anti-magic field. Sure it may not be able to be used in all games, but it follows the item creation rules and has its successes.

Where is that pouch from? Unless I have missed it, it's not in UC or UE.

If the GM is worried about how much damage the gunslinger is putting out then they should either disallow the pouch or place a limit on it.

Another point brought up earlier was range. A double barrel musket only has a base range of 10' so using the distance enchantment that goes to 20'. So touch AC within 20' (without using grit) with a max range of 100' (at a -8 to hit). An archer using a composite longbow has 110' range increments without any enhancements,

So lets go with DBM with Distance/same but for DBP vs longbow (without Distance/With Distance)

Range Inc 20'/40' vs 110'/220'
Max Range 100'/200' vs 1100'/2200'

Winner: Longbow for range.

Ok now its been said that this is all for high level play (16+)
Lets look at some of the thing you be facing at that level and where you are likely to fight them. (assuming ALP 16)

APL -1
gold dragon (adult), neothelid, phoenix, white dragon (ancient) /NPC with class levels)

Aside from class leveled NPCs each one of those can fly. Each one has abilities that either limit ranged options for the slinger or can attack from outside of max range. (Neothelid just has to charge from 140' away to use 20' reach, hit with tentacle which would average just under 50% of the time, grab with said tentacle and if the slinger cant be freed within 1 round gets swallowed)

Where you are likely to face such creatures, either out in the open so range really makes impact here, or in their lairs which would be buig enough for them to fly around in so that would for areas up to 200'-400' again range problems here for the slinger. Once they move closer then you start becoming...

That's not an official magic item but is completely legitimate given the magic item creation rules.

Also, archers do have a range that cannot be beaten, but think of it this way:

Max range on a composite longbow: 1100 feet. Max range on double barreled pistols: 100 feet. That means that, under the -few- situations where enemies start combat that far away the archer will get attacks before any double barrel gun user.

Okay, so assuming a base land speed of 30 feet and the need to get into melee, that would give enemies 120 foot movement from straight running every round. That's 9 rounds until they are 20 feet away. In this situation the archer can full attack 9 times, 5 foot stepping back each time for an -additional- 45 foot distance between himself and the enemies.

First of all, nobody would want to sit there and just watch the DM take damage into account from an archer while he basically knocks down a turn counter as to when the rest of the party gets to come into combat. And combat at like 7 to 10 range increments would be incredibly boring given the obscene negatives to each attack (-2 per range increment).

Second, this situation is better for an archer. Now consider a dungeon, an underground labyrinth, the interior of a building, a forest, or any other situation in which there is not going to be vision of the enemies withing 1100 feet. Yes, the gunslinger wins. No, stop bringing up "BUT HE ARE CAN BE THE CHARGED!" D10 hit dice. Highest DPR in game. Dexterity as highest prioritized stat. You are more likely to die as a fighter or barbarian than as a pistolero or musket master because unless I'm mistaken fighters share that d10 hit die and barbarians have a slightly higher d12 but are limited to a number of attacks per round due to their weapon not having two blades side by side like the crap that double barrels have been proven to be.

The 10 ft range of a double barrled musket might seem balanced but remember double barreled pistols are 20 ft and proven to be much more broken.

[Dakota_Strider]

In my limited experience playing in PFS and PF modules, I can barely recall examples when encounters happened when opponents started 110 feet away, let alone 1100 feet. Perhaps I have just played with lazy GMs that did not want to deal with what they could not easily display on a battle map.

[pika626]

@Lazoth As Theomniadept has said, the Pouch of Infinite Ammunition is a magic item that is player created using the rules for item crafting. And I did misquote the price. It's not 6000gp, it's actually 4000gp at base price (CL 1 * Spell level 1 * 2000gp * 2 for duration).

And if we're at level 16, where most of the monsters a party would fight would most likely have some sort of flight, why wouldn't the gunslinger have it as well? At level 16, he would have either Celestial Armor which grants him flight once per day at a cost of 22,400gp; Winged Boots which allows 15 minutes of flight per day at 16,000gp; or, if he were willing to pay for it, the Headband of Aerial Agility +6 which, for a hefty sum of 81,000gp (or 153,500gp if he chooses to add in the +6 Headband of Wisdom), will allow him unlimited flight. And these are only three items that I can think of that grant the user flight. Sure it takes a standard action to activate them, but the HoAE can pretty much be constantly active forever because of the duration of the spell being min/level.

[Sgt Spectre]

well alrighty just to double check on this tried building a duel wielding pistolero with double barreled pistols

Level 6 pistolero
with a dex of 20 (+5)*yes I know its a bit high...*
no magic items
no master work items

this is strictly gonna be the class with the weapons

So BAB is 6
two weapon fighting
improved two weapon fighting
and rapid shot

so he is essentially
+7/+7/+7 primary hand and +7/+2 off hand (factoring in dex and BAB and the additional shot for rapid shot)

Point blank shot (a requirement for rapid shot)
and that is against touch AC within 20 feet

but if firing both barrels it looks like this

+3/+3/+3/+3/-2/-2 with primary hand (assuming you can fire the double barrels on a rapid shot)

+3/+3/-2/-2 with the off hand

each bullet that hits inflicts 1d8+5

so to hit a Touch AC 13 I need a 6 to hit it... so I can probably count on 4 attacks hitting it as the +2 for the last off hand probalby not since it requires an 11, while possible for arguments sake on the d20, a margin of 10 and below is a hit for this set and 11 and up is a miss (we are not factoring magic and masterwork, some of that really changes the playing field, and yes I know at level 6 you should have some things to)
But anyway, 4 hits out of 5 isnt bad for a ranged as long as he is within 20feet. each doing 1d8+5.

Same AC of 13 touch, but firing the rapid shot both barrels yields 6 hits. Which definitely hurts, but I am still waiting for that precious moment when they are between melee distance and me and the 20ft range for my touch ac attack, so if they charge or run and move from the 30 to melee wouldnt that hurt as the gunslinger? Then your just provoking attacks of opportunity or taking a 5 foot step while the enemy uses the step up feat to auto close the distance with you. Though with pointblank shot I get a +1 to hit if they are within 30ft, so they just stay out at 31 feet essentially and charge the last 31 feet next turn?

If I shot at the Target outside of my first range incriment (20ft for touch AC and 30ft for PointBlank Shot) its an additional -1 to hit meaning that I wont be hitting with my role of 10 on an AC 13 target as my bonus are now +2/+2/+2/+2/-3/-3 and +2/+2/-3/-3
and it is no longer touch ac either right?

Not trying to be a smart ***, I am honestly curious, did I miss anything?

It does seem very risky to be firing like this, the whole "dont fire till you see the whites of their eyes" type of approach. From what I have seen the gunslinger becomes alot better at higher levels though, perhaps really unbalancing things then. So the Class is more managable at lower levels and less so at higher levels (12 or 15)? Most games I have played take me from level 1 to about 12, normally we dont get that much higher. Would the Gunslinger be a problem largely in those ranges?

**Edit** yes I know...without magical items, growing a third limb or magical hair, he really wont be reloading those pistols to shoot like he is...

[Azaelas Fayth]

It doesn't work like Vital Strike!?

And it has been proven that Weapon Cords are impossible to use for TWF with Pistols.

Also the table for firearms itself says they are 1H.

3.5 had the Perfected TWF Feat. It gave a 4th attack with your Off-Hand.

And your Math seems off...

BTW: The way you are saying is the DBP firing both barrels increases the damage to 2d8+(DEX). If I used VS/IVS/GVS that would become 4d8/6d8/8d8 all with a single Attack Roll. If you go the way it is written/how we are telling you it works. 1d8/2d8/3d8/4d8 with 2 Attack Rolls. You should be able to apply VS/IVS/GVS to both shots on a Standard Double Shot.

It decreases their damage.

[Ravingdork]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

And it has been proven that Weapon Cords are impossible to use for TWF with Pistols.

What? Where? This is the first I've heard of this.

[Azaelas Fayth]

The Actions needed to do it are considered Illegal.

I do think there is 1 way to Order the Actions for it to be legal, but that order eventually breaks down after a few turns.

[Kaleb the Opportunist]

IMHO they never should have given free action reloads. I see gunslinger as a vital strike style class.

[pika626]

@Azaelas Do you have proof of this? Because everybody who's posted the use of a Weapon Cord has done so according to RAW. They've posted that you do not have to switch between hands to utilize TWF and can take all attack with one hand, switch over to the other with a swift action, and take the remaining shots with the opposite hand so long as you follow the attack progression.

[Jarl]

Well, I see my gunslinger like William Munny after a few good drinks. boom boom boom boom...boom.

[Azaelas Fayth]

The problem is after a while it breaks down. Especially the way most try to use it.

Now if you do switch hands it works as does the Glove of Storing.

I guess I did word my previous statements badly... Sorry...

& Kaleb. This is Rules not opinions. And even without the Free Action Reloads they can still use their Deed that lets the Full Attack with a single bullet.

[Kaleb the Opportunist]

Thus the IMHO opening.

You would still apply vital strike, IVS, GVS to 1 bullet.

[Covent]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

The Actions needed to do it are considered Illegal.

I do think there is 1 way to Order the Actions for it to be legal, but that order eventually breaks down after a few turns.

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

The problem is after a while it breaks down. Especially the way most try to use it.

Now if you do switch hands it works as does the Glove of Storing.

Azaelas Faith,

perhaps I misunderstand you, however would you please point out to me where in the following sequence "It breaks down.", as you put it?

Sequence

As I have said before I do not particularly like it but pure RAW I do not see how it does not work, and I would like to be corrected with page numbers/PRD quotes or developer input please.

I believe this post shows the data for a dual wielding gunslinger well, however Kaleb did catch a mistake I made. It would be -4 not -2 for the TWF since double barreled pistols are I believe one handed weapons and not light.

My apologies for that.

However I still believe even after the correction my numbers are slightly lower than they should be do to the fact that I did not bother to account for the half damage on an Up Close and Deadly miss.

I think including the -4 and the Up Close and Deadly miss damage you will get somewhere in the ballpark of these numbers.

Data

So in short, I challenge your assertion of "It Breaks Down." and would like some RAW to back that up. If you have such I will admit it and correct my understanding.

RAW is important to me as I believe it is my job as GM to understand the rules extremely well so my players have a firm non-changing basis upon which to play and which they can trust.

[Azaelas Fayth]

How are you using Rapid shot while firing Both Barrels?

And if you notice I stated doing the Switch Hands method is Legal alongside the Glove of Storing method.

But most don't try that they try Alternating the Attacks.

[Lou Diamond]

I Just created a new magic item the Gunslingers Belt. Could I get some feedback on it.

The Gnslingers belt has four holsters that can hold any pistol type weapon any pistol placed in the holster will be reloaded or have the quick clear deed done as a swift action. [if a weapon that has misfired is placed in its holster it takes two rounds before it can be used again 1 round to clear and one to have it reloaded] The Gunslingers belt also holds 100 rounds of any type of ammunition. The Gunslingers belt will preform the reloading action as long as it has ammo. The Ammo is considered to be in an extradimisional space.

[Covent]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

How are you using Rapid shot while firing Both Barrels?

And if you notice I stated doing the Switch Hands method is Legal alongside the Glove of Storing method.

But most don't try that they try Alternating the Attacks.

Ah, I misunderstood you then, my apologies.

As for Rapid Shot.

PRD wrote:

Rapid Shot (Combat)

You can make an additional ranged attack.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

Rapid shot simply allows you to fire one additional time during a full attack action. Nothing indicates you cannot do so with a double barreled pistol as long as you can reload it.

It can be fluffed however, but due to free action reloads from Rapid Reload(Double Barreled Pistol) + Alchemical Cartridges and the existence of weapon cords you can definitively use TWF+ITWF+GTWF+Rapid Shot+Double Barreled Pistol.

Unfortunately as Many Shot specifically requires a Bow it cannot be used with a crossbow or firearm.

I stand by my assertion then that the 17 attack per round gunslinger actually works.

P.S. As I have said I do not personally like this but as far as I can see it is RAW.

[Azaelas Fayth]

It is R.A.W. Just as a TWF Alchemist with Rapid Shot and Fadt Bombs can throw out their Bombs making 8 Attacks.

Wait wasn't there a F.A.Q. on the Double Crossbow that could apply to DBP/DBM?

EDIT: Couldn't you reload both barrels and get both on the Rapid Shot Attack? Because I don't see how it could be legal for Iterative Attacks and Haste attacks but not the RS attack?

[Kaleb the Opportunist]

Perhaps a better way of explaining my stance. We've agrued over the meaning of the following sentence.

"If both barrels are shot at once, they must both target the same creature or object, and the pistol becomes wildly inaccurate, imparting a –4 penalty on each shot."

In play this works out like this. Gunslinger with 16BAB firing a single double barreled pistol wants to maximize damage but is unwilling to sacrifice his chances to hit. His normal attack sequence is:
+16/+11/+6/+1
He decides to give it both barrels on the first and second attack only so instead his attacks are:
+12/+7/+6/+1
So he takes a -4 on each shot that uses both barrels but not on the remaining attacks.

I hope this clears things up.

[Azaelas Fayth]

But he would be rolling.

+12/+12/+7/+7/+6/+1

[Kaleb the Opportunist]

That would require two feats, not 1 mundane weapon.

[Covent]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

It is R.A.W. Just as a TWF Alchemist with Rapid Shot and Fadt Bombs can throw out their Bombs making 8 Attacks.

Wait wasn't there a F.A.Q. on the Double Crossbow that could apply to DBP/DBM?

EDIT: Couldn't you reload both barrels and get both on the Rapid Shot Attack? Because I don't see how it could be legal for Iterative Attacks and Haste attacks but not the RS attack?

For the FAQ, I do not know, I will look for it.

Thank you for the information.

For Rapid Shot to gain two shots by firing both barrels one more time, I could see that argued both ways.

Honestly that does put to the question whether Rapid shot would take the base 16 attacks offered by Haste + GTWF + Double Barreled pistol and make it 17 by adding one more firing event so one more attack, or does it allow for one more firing event due to being able to fire both barrels with the same attack for a total of 18 attacks.

Hummm...

I do not know as I could see the RAW taken both ways.

I would personally RAI it as 18 attacks now that you have brought it up, however I had not thought about it before and the RAW is unclear.

Thank you again.

EDIT: a quick search for any FAQ addressing double crossbow shows that it does not exist in any FAQ for the core rule book, APG, UC, or UM. However it may exist in a developer post I will search further.

[Azaelas Fayth]

How so?

He is firing two barrels. Each barrel rolls a separate attack. that means he gets 2 attacks at his highest bonuses each with a -4 Penalty.

If he was TWF it would be:

Main-Hand: +10/+10/+5/+5/+4/-1
Off-Hand: +10/+10/+5/+5

@Covent: I agree and it isn't a problem. Personally I like how the Gunslinger can become a Turret of Devastation, at a High Price.

[Starbuck_II]

Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:

IMHO they never should have given free action reloads. I see gunslinger as a vital strike style class.

Exactly, Archers shopuld only be able to attack 1/rd.

Wait, did you mean free action reload are only bad for guns? That is racist. Or classist or something.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Weaponist?

[Kaleb the Opportunist]

lol

Edit: A real world bow is 10 times faster than a muzzle loader. Less damage and harder to learn though.

[Azaelas Fayth]

It isn't 10 times faster until you get to people like Lars Anderson.

In the hands of a Trained Gunsman a Muzzle loader can fire 3 Times in 6 Seconds. 2 if it starts Unloaded. This means it is 4-5 Times faster.

[JohnF]

Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:

That would require two feats, not 1 mundane weapon.

No it wouldn't. Maybe it should, but by RAW it doesn't.

A gunslinger can fire both barrels of a double-barreled weapon as a single action long before he qualifies for iterative attacks. If he has two-weapon fighting he can fire both barrels of two double-barreled pistols in a round, again before he has any iterative attacks.

[Starbuck_II]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

It isn't 10 times faster until you get to people like Lars Anderson.

In the hands of a Trained Gunsman a Muzzle loader can fire 3 Times in 6 Seconds. 2 if it starts Unloaded. This means it is 4-5 Times faster.

Please in the real world the sling can be used faster than a bow or gun with more attacks/rd. By a human.

[Kaleb the Opportunist]

JohnF wrote:

Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:

That would require two feats, not 1 mundane weapon.

No it wouldn't. Maybe it should, but by RAW it doesn't.

A gunslinger can fire both barrels of a double-barreled weapon as a single action long before he qualifies for iterative attacks. If he has two-weapon fighting he can fire both barrels of two double-barreled pistols in a round, again before he has any iterative attacks.

True

But I disagree on how that works mechanically. Both shots are fired simultaneously. roll d20 once with a -4 penalty. Damage = 1d8 + modifiers + 1d8 for second bullet.

[Covent]

Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:

JohnF wrote:

Kaleb the Opportunist wrote:

That would require two feats, not 1 mundane weapon.

No it wouldn't. Maybe it should, but by RAW it doesn't.

A gunslinger can fire both barrels of a double-barreled weapon as a single action long before he qualifies for iterative attacks. If he has two-weapon fighting he can fire both barrels of two double-barreled pistols in a round, again before he has any iterative attacks.

True

But I disagree on how that works mechanically. Both shots are fired simultaneously. roll d20 once with a -4 penalty. Damage = 1d8 + modifiers + 1d8 for second bullet.

Kaleb, PLEASE explain with rules quotes why you are advocating this in the RULES forum.

As far as I can tell this is entirely a house rule.

That is fine, and you are in no way having badwrongfun.

However you are also not discussing RAW which is what the threads in the RULES forum are for.

Please, if you wish to continue advocating this and do not have any RAW to support it take that derailing discussion to a separate thread in the Suggestions/HomeBrew/HouseRules forum.

The only reason I ask is because people search these forums for definitive rules based answers RAW as you will, and your comments in this thread seem to imply that this is how you see the rules working.

I would rather not confuse a rules question with opinion.

Look at my response to Azaelas Fayth on the rules for Rapid Shot for an example of response when unsure of the rules.

Please, Please stop derailing and confusing a rules post with opinion.