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Welp, I've got a really nasty situation on my hands.
I'm currently GMing a modified version of Second Darkness. Here's whats up:
There's an imp that can be encountered during the first adventure who, although not initially hostile, usually ends up as an enemy and gets killed. Just another doomed NPC.
However, when my party's LN Oracle heard about him, he sought the imp out, curious about why it was hanging around.
The Oracle has an extremely "shades of grey" world view and doesn't truly believe any creature can actually be fully good or evil, and befriended the imp, eventually taking it under a contract to work for him (I had the imp agree in exchange for an unspecified favor at later date).
The oracle did this with the belief that A) having the imp under his control means its less a threat to people in general, and B) maybe if he shows enough true kindness and generosity towards it, he can turn it away from evil. The Oracle's player also informed me she wanted to eventually take the imp as a cohort.
I thought this all seemed like a fascinating and grand development and happily went along with it!
But then things started to get complicated when the party's Good aligned Fighter found out. The Fighter's player casually informed me and the oracle's player that she'd probably try to kill the imp at some point.
The Oracle's player was bummed out at the thought, so I discussed ways we could secretly save or bring back the imp with her. I thought (foolishly) that this was a perfect answer! The Fighter could act in-character. The oracle could keep her Cohort of choice!
Some time passed and then the Fighter actually finally confronted the Oracle. The Oracle tried to reach a compromise (we'll kill the imp if it does anything evil, I want to try and redeem it and keep it from hurting people by supervising it, let me have a chance to prove I can handle it, etc). The Fighter refused to budge an inch, stating that the Oracle was too young to understand what they were getting into, and they could not stand by and watch the Oracle's soul be put at risk.
But instead of simply demanding the Oracle release the imp and then killing it if the Oracle refused... The Fighter gave an ultimatum. Either the imp had to go, or the Fighter would leave the party.
The oracle thought this was a bluff and refused to release the imp.
At which point the Fighter's Player announced she needed to roll up a new character.
So now, as the situation stands, our Oracle's player feels awful because she didn't think the Fighter meant it, but also feels it invalidates her diplomacy-focused character if she takes it back (also she really really likes the imp and was really curious if it could be redeemed).
The Fighter's player has taken the situation very personally because her old DM screwed her over in favor of evil characters a lot, and I think I've accidentally given her the impression I'm doing the same. She feels that if I let the Oracle get the imp back it invalidates HER character.
The two other players are at a complete loss for what to do, having both attempted to convince the fighter to stay, to no avail.
The fighter's player has informed me she is still going to go kill the imp before her character leaves.
I feel really bad for having done goofed and given the Oracle bias because I was enjoying the plotline with the imp so much. I had no intention of giving favor or making this get so personal!
I have no idea what to do.
Help?
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Ah yes the "This is what my player would do" argument.
As a GM you have done everything right as far as I see it. The players involved are being too entrenched and stubborn. If you allow this to continue it will continually rear it's ugly head throughout the campaign. People are taking IC actions personally and that's never good.
At the next session sit everyone down and explain that you are not happy with this situation. Explain to the players involved that you want to continue the campaign but not with players who are constantly at each other's throats. Tell them you won't continue the campaign until the players can work together.
In short it is the player's responsibility to work this out. Part of being a good player is compromise. Let them hammer out a way to make this work.
sounds like the player who plays the Fighter needs to grow up. if the Fighter as a character didn't like the imp, that's fine. but metagaming her SECOND character to not like the imp just because she as a player doesn't like it? that's rather petty and immature.
i'd suggest talk to the player. part of roleplaying a cohesive party is finding in-character reasons to not do something you normally would if it benefits the party, and part of that is compromising. the compromise of "you can kill the imp if it does something evil, but until then let me try to convert it away from evil" is a very fair compromise: it still gives the fighter the opportunity to do what she wants, and gives the oracle a chance to do what he wants. but the player (not the *character*) saying "screw that, i don't want you to have an imp" is an issue with the player, and i can almost guarantee it will come up each and every time something in-game happens that the PLAYER doesn't like. the attitude and the issue both need to be addressed.
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Well, first, you should have stopped this WELL before the Fighter started dictating whether the Oracle could be alive or not.
Second, I should point out that as DM, you need to have the Imp ACTING like an imp, that is, according to its alignment and motivations. It probably wants to corrupt the Oracle. If so, it should have taken steps toward doing so. This would tip off the Oracle as to what the Imp is really about.
Third, I have a standing rule that anyone who attacks a PC seriously, loses their frickin PC for violating the LG PC rule. Treat the NPCs in accordance to your alignment etc, but treat each other as if you were LG.
Murder is not LG. It is an evil act, one so bad that it would immediately change alignment. You should point that out to the Fighter.
Basically, take a step back and have a good think. Murdering fellow PC's isn't just Evil in game, it ruins games as people stop playing over PvP like this.
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Start by having lunch or coffee or beers with the fighter's player and the oracle's player away from the game table.
Ask everyone what they want to see happen and why. Ask yourself the same. Write all that down for the three of you to reflect on. Work with them to find an amiable solution.
You may need to reassure the fighter's player that you will not let the alignment of the party slip toward E. You might tell her how you plan to play the imp, or even ask what her expectations are.
Honestly, it sounds like the imp is a proxy for a bigger problem not being addressed. It would be helpful to discover what that is.
It also sounds like the fighter's player has a less nuanced view of good and evil than the oracle's view. Neither is better or worse than the other, but those two different points of view can come into conflict at the game table.
(At my home game, one of the other players brought this up very early on, before we got to know each other, asking how we all view things like how prisoners are dealt with, etc. It helped tremendously to get everyone to agree how they wanted to view alignment in the game.)
This actually sounds cool. Talk to the fighter and oracle separately and make sure there are no true hard feelings. Then let the fighter retire! There is nothing wrong with that. I played a character that became emotionally envolved with the well being of this one town that showed kindness to the group and had a very interesting flavor to it. After we saved the village from a BBEG, my character retired from the group to be a protectorate in the area. This was a character that I had carefully planned out to lvl 20 and everything! But the story took precedent and I re rolled a new character for the group. It was very rewarding for me as a player to give my PC a happy ending.
Work it out with your players, and then let them work it out with their characters. It can be a fun and envolved turn of events.
This is so silly:)
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sounds like the player who plays the Fighter needs to grow up. if the Fighter as a character didn't like the imp, that's fine. but metagaming her SECOND character to not like the imp just because she as a player doesn't like it? that's rather petty and immature.
I can't find where the OP said that.
But OP, just sit down, the three of you and talk it out. I do think that the Oracle is part of the problem. After all, a Imp is pretty darn Evil and they are designed to lure/corrupt people into evil, and could well do that by pretending to perhaps be 'saved". But of course they can't be. Imps can not be redeemed. So the two have to compromise but allowing the Imp to stay should not be part of the compromise. You should have not given the oracle the impression the Imp could be saved. OTOH, the Fighter should not threaten to kill the oracle. Leave? Sure, and I applaud her for that.
The Fox brings up some good points.
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Well, first, you should have stopped this WELL before the Fighter started dictating whether the Oracle could be alive or not.
Second, I should point out that as DM, you need to have the Imp ACTING like an imp, that is, according to its alignment and motivations. It probably wants to corrupt the Oracle. If so, it should have taken steps toward doing so. This would tip off the Oracle as to what the Imp is really about.
Third, I have a standing rule that anyone who attacks a PC seriously, loses their frickin PC for violating the LG PC rule. Treat the NPCs in accordance to your alignment etc, but treat each other as if you were LG.
Murder is not LG. It is an evil act, one so bad that it would immediately change alignment. You should point that out to the Fighter.
Basically, take a step back and have a good think. Murdering fellow PC's isn't just Evil in game, it ruins games as people stop playing over PvP like this.
Next time actually read the OP.
At no time did the LG fighter say they were going to attack the oracle.
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I applaud the maturity of all players up to this point. Their PCs find themselves diametrically opposed on an issue, but it does seem every effort is made to keep the conflict in-character. Kudos.
PCs who for whatever reason can no longer adventure together, have to part ways. Invalidating core tenets of a character just to keep the gang together is not an option, imho. So let the Fighter leave, and let the player roll up something else. In fact, make sure the player can roll up something nice so she doesn't feel short-changed.
The intended "parting shot" is an issue though. If the Fighter does kill the Imp, the whole thing becomes a Solomon's Gambit gone wrong. Try to avoid that. It seems to me some heavy-handed railroading is in order. Determine the best possible outcome, and simply impose it on the party. It may not make for great GMing, but at least it'll get the game back to being fun. For everyone.
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I agree with FallofCamelot. Have a sit-down with the players and take care of real life misunderstandings, then work out how to take care of the in-game relationship.
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The last time someone pulled the "but this is what my PC would do" thing to be a pain in the ass, had his PC killed, in the night, while asleep.
My response to his shock, "this is what my character would do".
If anyone is interested in the full story, I can provide a link.
i think we all know BBT lol
Though if I recall that resulted in some butt hurtness did it not?
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Ok, several of you have said it, but I don't see where the fighter threatened to kill the oracle.
First thing you as a GM need to decide is it even possible to redeem an imp in your game world? Not likely, is it possible? Most GM's that I have known would say no, but a few would say yes (though very unlikely).
After that, yes you need to discuss it with both players, preferably away from the others. Make a point of specifically telling the fighter you have no intention of favoring one player over another this just seemed like an intersting plot twist. And is very likely to not be a good thing for the oracle since it is a devil.
I see some problems with both players.
The Oracle was not 'playing nice with others' when it was obvious that it was bothering the fighter. The "...feels it invalidates her diplomacy-focused character if she takes it back..." is rather silly since it is all pretend.
The fighter is being obstructively stubborn and was also not 'playing nice with others.' It could be all playing in-character, but it doesn't sound like it.
Doesn't an oracle have access to the atonement spell, or geas/ quest? Either one would show if the imp has noble intentions to the fighter and should be a consideration of the oracle unless they are playing lawful stupid as their character.
Match, and set!
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I blame the fighter player. Drawing steel on a "misguided" ally is not something a good-aligned character should ever do.
Discuss with that player the other "rational" and "good" alternatives. If I were him, I would suspect that the imp had some control over an otherwise good friend of mine, and rather than killing the manipulated friend I would contact a third-party priest for an exorcism.
This kind of situation is great grist for characterization (capital-r capital-p Role-Playing), but only if the players involved are really good at separating their own motivations from their PCs' motivations.
Consider asking them to literally switch characters, but play with the same goals as the other player had. Ask the fighter player what he would do in the oracle's situation, and vice-versa. It should quickly become evident who is playing their PC accurately and who is being emotional.
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When did the OP say the fighter threatened the Oracle?
People keep saying it but I think he just threatened the Imp.
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Sorry if my old-school knowledge of Imp is wrong, but can't they commune? To wit (after Screwtape):
Dear Wormsnot-
I read with humor your description of the dilemma created in that group of adventurers you've traveled with of late. While I typically care too little to advise so directly, I have elected in this instance to make an exception.
Procure a net sized for yourself, and a tiny sharp blade of steel. Carry it with you into the room where the noisome nuisance sleeps. Poison him with your tail. Drape the net over yourself, cut a hole in the net, and leave it on the floor nearby. Pull the dead nuisance onto yourself, with one of their weapons nearby as if fallen. Raise a cry for help. Plead the case of self-defense. 'He was going to kill me!', 'I cut my way out of the net!', 'I stung him with my tail...' Feigned remorse at this last seems prudent. Do keep your statements to whole but misleading truths; we have a reputation to uphold.
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... Drawing steel on a "misguided" ally is not something a good-aligned character should ever do....rather than killing the manipulated friend ...
Again, I see no where that he attacked or even threatened the oracle. He said he would kill the imp.
... Consider asking them to literally switch characters, but play with the same goals as the other player had. Ask the fighter player what he would do in the oracle's situation, and vice-versa. It should quickly become evident who is playing their PC accurately and who is being emotional.
This is actually a very good idea if they will do it. I suspect though that they won't.
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From the way you tell the story, I don’t think you did anything wrong. As a GM, you can also bite the plot hooks players present and the oracle player presented a very enticing plot for you to explore. I do agree with Piccolo that the imp, a lawful evil outsider, should act like an imp. You said it signed a contract for an unspecified favour. The contract is very lawful and very devil-appropriate, and the blind favour the oracle is expected to repay very much sounds like a selfish, manipulative act, ie evil. So the imp certainly seem in character from what you wrote.
I also think the oracle player did nothing wrong. Shades-of-grey is an interesting pov, and appropriately Lawful Neutral. The only concern I have is that she mentioned wanting the imp as a cohort. If this was her character’s long term plan, fine. If this is her long term plan as a player, I think she’s being a bit presumptuous that she will succeed in turning this imp. Maybe she presented it as an option, which would be fine. It is the only red flag that went up related to that player. She even tried to compromise, in character with the fighter. Again, sounds like good roleplaying and reasonable behaviour.
My interpretation is that the fighter’s player is being inflexible. Some of that may be conjecture. If the fighter character never mentioned, implied, or had any above average issue with imps or devils, her actions sound stubborn. And if she is only changing characters to stick it to the oracle player, that sounds petty. But this is how I’m reading your interpretation of the situation. Are you sure she isn’t changing characters to play something that would fit in the group better? Irreconcilable differences between characters is, in my book, an acceptable reason to change characters.
To reiterate, it seems to me that you and the oracle player are making character choices, and the fighter is making player choices. Players need to separate character actions from player actions to successfully roleplay. I would roll with the fighter player changing her character but tell her that killing the imp before she leaves is taking it too far. Justify your decision by saying that you and the oracle player are both invested in where the imp story can go, and if she has to change characters to fit in with the party, it is in the story and the group’s better interests to leave the imp alone.
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When in doubt have a paladin come by, let the oracle and fighter explain their side to the paladin, and then, based on skill checks and justifications, let the paladin decide what happens with the imp. Ta da, now the fate of the imp comes down to a game mechanic and you have a level 20 paladin around to enforce the decision, preventing any sort of PVP.
Along the same thread, have a Redeemer paladin come by and offer to take the imp under their care at one of the sanctuaries for the reformation of evil creatures. The oracle player rolls occassionally to determine progress, and over time the imp either rehabilitates (and is deemed Good by a higher authority who are likely experts on the topic) at which point it comes back to the party to thank the Oracle for giving it a shot and offering it's services, free of charge, as a token of it's grattitude. If the rolls don't go well, and the Imp doesn't reform, the Oracle get's a letter from the reformatory explaining that the imp orchestrated an escape that resulted in a variety of denizens escaping and raiding a nearby village. Now the fighter can go and merrily slaughter the Imp while the party goes off to rescue this village as a sidequest that can explore the nature of good and evil.
That said, these are in-game ways to handle what largely sounds like an out of game issue, so I'd use these as a last resort resolution if maturity and open discussion don't work.
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1. You think this is a "REALLY BAD party conflict?" Kudos to your gaming group.
2. You should have played the imp as if it was, you know, an imp.
3. The imp would have eventually given itself away and the fighter would have killed it.
On to the next crisis...
Sorry, I misread the bit about "roll up a new character" as a threat...
I did not read it as the fighter intended to attack the Oracle whatsoever. Both players did what their characters would do. The fighter said they'd leave so they're leaving.
Here's what I think could be a potential way to keep the fighter, if the fighter hasn't already left yet. Have the imp (who we know is evil, as it's just what devils are) attempt to kill the fighter and make sure the Oracle sees this. Or it could be some other evil act. Something to get past the imp. The Oracle could move on then and the fighter wouldn't have a reason to leave.
Now, that probably isn't the best answer as the Oracle might feel cheated and hurt. The fighter may also feel entitled to get their way if what I had suggested were done as well.
If you want to keep the imp around for a while, let the fighter take off. Although apparently they're going to try to kill the imp (seemingly more out of spite) on the way out anyways.
So, in the end, talking to them about this out of game would probably be your best bet.
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I would like tho throw myself into the "The Fighter has a decent point" camp.
Th Oracle wants to bring a Evil outsider into the group. An outsider that can commune each week with it's boss.
I for one would take issue with an evil spy in the party, I have to sleep with one eye open now just so the Oracle can have a pet? No thanks.
Not only can the Imp commune all about us, it can kill me as I sleep.
The Oracle's anwser of "well if it does anything evil you can do what you like" would not really make me sleep any better.
If it betrays the party or kills the fighter in her sleep, what is the Oracle going to do? say "Oops..... I guess you were right.... um, my bad...."?
Honestly I don't blame the fighter at all for how she is taking it.
A simple way to solve this as the DM would be to have the imp do something really rotten like paralyze a PC or NPC with his poison (Dex 0 = paralyzed basically) and then torture them in various ways. This wouldn't really be "punishing" the Oracle PC since doing rotten things is perfectly in character for an imp, especially an imp who isn't locked into servitude like many improved familiars. If the victim is the Oracle and the Figter saves him (or vice versa) maybe that would even help the PCs patch up their relationship (or destroy it further...who knows...)
On the other hand you could also have the imp convert to neutrality, in which case the Fighter should either back down or face condemnation as some kind of racist. Either way I'd think that a Fighter who really can't stand being around anybody or anything evil is going to have a sad time in Second Darkness. Does she walk down the street in Riddleport slaughtering all the evil characters she sees? That would probably be half the population...
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1. You think this is a "REALLY BAD party conflict?" Kudos to your gaming group.
2. You should have played the imp as if it was, you know, an imp.
3. The imp would have eventually given itself away and the fighter would have killed it.
On to the next crisis...
There are a few devils and demons in our genre that have been redeemed and have good alignments. I seem to recall a paladin succubus that was one. If a PC wants to try I say let him. If another PC wants to watch the creature like a hawk, he should. But when a PC destroys(or says they will destroy) something in-game that another PC is considering a fun RP item and something to work at to further the story, that is not OK. This isn't a Paladin falling by working with evil...this is a matter of someone playing their PC as LG but acting like a bully and ignoring that maybe this evil could possibly be redeemed.
Also, playing the imp as an imp....I see a lawful creature that entered into a lawful contract to save it's life from people too powerful for it to kill. It seems to be bound to not commit evil currently by it's sticking to the contract. Perhaps it will see that it can't gain anything further by being evil besides it's death and the PC's actions of mercy and non-evilnessitude can become a model of what the imp could be if it let the shackles of evil no longer bind it.Perhaps it eventually reverts? Perhaps it stays evil and gets the axe? Perhaps it just leaves in the night and gets as far away from the PCs as possible eventually finding a new evil master?
Either way the story is interesting and fun and the idea of redeeming evil is a good one to explore.
Oh gosh, so many answers so quickly, thank you, everyone! I see a few different view points, so I'll do my best to address them all...
A few clarifications:
-The Fighter has NOT threatened to kill the Oracle; just to kill the IMP. And plans to do so BEFORE leaving.
-I read a brief mention of the existence of redeemed fiends in Classic Horrors Revisited and basically stand by the rule of "If you actually gave it a strong enough incentive, then yeah, I'd allow it". I would NOT a fiend becoming "good" except in extreme circumstances... For example, the only way to redeem the imp would be to appeal to it's lawful nature. Convince it to become a creature of law more than evil.
Basically, it's possible, but extremely difficult to do.
I've had the imp scheming and manipulating from day 1 (from trying to convince the Oracle he should take the evil-subtype Infernal Healing spell, to including offers for further benefits the Oracle could get in their contract, most of them involving distinctly Evil). And oooooooh boy does he have some horrifically evil in mind with the contract (lets just say I included some fine print to turn it into a Catch-22. I'd hoped I could use it as a hook for a "travel to hell, save my soul" type adventure… I got ahead of myself, what can I say >.>;). I've always really liked the idea of the "Charming Lawful Evil Character", making LE seem reasonable and sane and just so damn willing to do awful things. So I've played the imp as playing the long-con...
BUT. I've realized that although <i>I've</i> been operating under the assumption that WELL YEAH OBVIOUSLY IT'S AN IMP IT'S GONNA TRY TO SCREW YOU OVER AND KEEPING IT IS PLAYING WITH FIRE, BUT GO FOR IT!!... The oracle's player might not have DX I was loathe to state it out so plainly because I didn't want to ruin "the surprise/dramatic suspense" but... Yeah it's kinda clear that this needs to be well understood by everyone. I'll have to be sure to establish it. "You get benefits of having an imp on your team, but that little s&#+ is definitely plotting. You can pretty much rely on it."
I fully intend to have us sit down and talk it out, as mentioned. I really wish I could sit back and let them handle it, but frankly, I don't think the problem is just between them. They disagree about the imp, sure, but it's MY actions the Fighter's player perceived as being against her. I'm under the impression she feels like ANYTHING I do to allow the imp to live or stop her character is me being biased… Because I accidentally managed to strike chords that just reminded her too much of a really bad past experience with an awful DM >__< Good job, me.
I didn't agree initially, but another player/more experienced GM whose advice I trust implied she thinks that I might have been?? So i dunno any more. I just want to be a good GM and for everyone to get to have fun :C
I'm gonna give it a day or two for everyone to calm down, then see what can be done. I know we need to sit down and talk. But I don't even know what to SAY!! How do I even start?
Hmm. You know. I HAVE kinda considered having the imp pull a vanishing act. He was told by the player "its best to respect the Fighter's wishes" at one point in the past, and he could take it as a loophole to let himself leave WHILE keeping the contract... Follow them secretly and reveal his evil plans down the line?
Or just have him go "WHOOPS I'm outa here", thats probably smarter. Mmmrgh I dunno aaaah.
... Sigh. I can't even lie. I ADORED the plot line the imp brought to things and he was really fun to RP :/ I really wish there was a way to keep him around. It's sounding more and more like that's not an option though. And as GM, my job isn't to run around with a character of my own, it's to set the story and world for the PCs. I need to stop selfishly wanting the imp to get to stay...
It's just SUCH a good plot potential, it bothers me so much that it might have to just get cut off without any compromise u___u
... Oh my god I just realized what my avatar is.
Aahhaaaaahhhhhhh... Wow. Uh. *coughs*
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Second, I should point out that as DM, you need to have the Imp ACTING like an imp, that is, according to its alignment and motivations. It probably wants to corrupt the Oracle. If so, it should have taken steps toward doing so. This would tip off the Oracle as to what the Imp is really about.
Piccolo brings up a good point-- A major, major part of DMing in a constructive way is to always be transparent about your world. I've had PCs react REALLY poorly to their own metagame constructs before, despite all evidence, and at one point you legitimately need to sit down and tell the PC what's going on.
If you want the imp to be good, it can be good and you just have to hint at that. If it's going to be neutral, it can be neutral, hint at it. If it's going to be evil, it can pretend to be good, just hint at it. Make it obvious. That kind of thing, so that the PCs know that the imp is evil or good or neutral and can go from there, or that they understand that their actions may be making it head towards another alignment. Be frank and open if you need to be.
Transparency helps a lot. It makes the game less hidden and helps the PCs understand the true nature of their actions.
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The post is a bit long but its my 2 copper if u want to read it or not.
In concerns of the Imp i like it. As a DM u did a great job with it. The oracle playing LN also has done a great job and is playing the character quite well. Its quite hard to play a true LN. The fighter i have concerns about.
It probably comes from experience but there are ways to play a good character along side evil ones even if its a paladin, thankfully though in this case its a fighter. As a long time player and dm of 35+ years there are many ways to go about playing good. Fighter here has chosen all evil should die being the most common and most frond upon. A true good aligned character should only harm those that do evil not those that are evil for being evil. Example will u as a good aligned character kill the guy who stole some money or will u try to help the guy to see the error of his ways. There are multiple ways to "kill" evil. The best, admittedly the hardest, is to convert. If u can convert one who is evil to not being so then there is less evil in the world and another soul saved from the damnation of the 9 hells. U kill evil with sword u did not lesson the amount of evil but instead just sent it some were else.
If u read up a bit on the history of D&D u will come to the demon/devil war. Reading up on the war u will notice that those of heaven aid both sides of the war. Since the Good outsiders know once one side wins they them selves will be with war with the victors literally the following day. Do those creatures count as evil since they are helping evil beings? No because they do it for the greater good.
The fighter should be willing to work with the evil imp as a good character trying to convert it as well by teaching it by example and partial lecture of what is and is not acceptable. Then if it gets out of line kill it. But the fighter should not kill it for its nature, it cant help that it is what it is, but instead pass judgment on it for its actions and keep close eye on it because of its nature. Punish and reward should be determined on action. If not then the fighter is no better than a murder.
Most people who play good that interact with evil kills evil on sight with out a second thought, especially paladins with there detect evil. Those players i ding there alignment since no honest good person would turn to the blade 1st. They would turn to word 1st. There of course are exceptions like witnessing some1 kill another sentient being in front of them.
An example of a creature that abides by its nature and is often persevered as evil is goblins. When i played a paladin back in 3.0 one of the 1st adventures i played in we encounter a tribe of goblins. I convinced my party not to attack the goblins and let me go in alone. I brought them offerings of meat, showed i was of no threat and brought back a capture goblin from town who taught me how to speak roughly goblin. I after some weeks of game time got them a reservation were they could raise and tend to life stock for consumption and brought an ounce of civility to them. The town being attacked was happy since goblins are no longer a threat, goblins are happy since they have steady food supply and are not dead, players are happy because we got awarded xp, im happy because i got awarded more xp for RPing, and DM is happy because we took on the challenge in an unexpected way and further rewarded us by allowing goblin to be a player race since word of them traveled fast.
In short talk to ur fighter and mention that good is not black and white and all souls are worth saving and should be tried to be saved even the most vile. If the imp in question shows no sign of it relinquishing its evil ways then take action as see fit but at least give it a chance to prove its merit.
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My issue stems from the whole "your character will do what my character wants, or... <enter threat here>"
I hate that.
Now if the fighter had approached in-character and tried to convince the other character of the wrongness of their actions (not some dismissive/arrogant "I am like 9x wiser than your young ass" sort of deal) and failed to convince, then put it to the other party members to resolve the conflict, I'd be fine with it. Civil discorse is wonderful to resolve heated issues, and it's always nice to set precedent on how the party will react to later moral dilemmas.
The issue appears to be the fighter character. They threaten with ultimatums and don't get their way, so they're going to force the issue with threats (leaving the oracle in an awkward position...do they defend the imp?), and then will leave in a huff (likely coming back with their next character who is a paladin named I'hatez'impz).
It's the RPG version of holding one's breath until they get their way.
Bullies suck.
Those that like to throw their weight around are generally the first ones to cry like little b++!~es when someone pokes them hard in their left orb. Bet you 4 copper that if the oracle had said, "This is my cohort, you're not wise enough to see all angles, if you don't like it then...<enter threat here>" that fighter would have had a complete conniption fit.
I don't see any favouritism here BTW. There's a player that's advancing their character concept by injecting some energy into your game, rather than simply standing around and waiting for you to entertain them, and you fostered that energy.
Rather than worrying about what others are doing, your fighter might want to spend a bit of time doing something to advance their own concept.
Just my 9.1 cp.
Playing around with devils is tricky at best and dangerous at worse. I once played a Chelaxian Witch dimensional occultist who reguarly summoned and called devils. When she called them she never did it in the prescence of her party and the imp was pretty nasty especially after I gave it the treat of an orphan I found in the town.
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I have to agree with the fighter in this circumstance. The imp is not the legendary baby goblin of numerous let's make the paladin fall posts. It is an inherently evil creatrue from another plane of existence whose job is to corrupt the people it serves. Even if it is killed all that happens is it gets sent back to hell until its next assignment.
The oracle may have delusions of helping a poor hopeless soul find true peace but this is not going to happen. It is also nice to see a someone besides a paladin playing their alignment. Most players figure if it does not cause my character to lose powers who cares.
What is the alignment of the rest of the party? If it is a predominantly good party they should be supporting the fighter, and the oracle may be asked to leave. If it is predominately neutral it could go either way. Since the fighter is upset with the alignment of the imp I have to assume the party is not evil, nor contains any evil characters.
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As for the imp, it isn't stupid, it has heard everything going on so it is high time it voids the contract and heads for the hills.
Evil outsider. Killed on the Material Plane, doesn't it just pop back into Hell for a while?
Leaving behind an oracle and a fighter who are now really pissed off at each other, one maybe one step closer to falling towards evil, and at the very least weakening the party that is (I assume) generally working or the greater good.
Hell, promote that little guy!
Creative Director
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Not to overcomplicate things... but you CAN redeem a demon or a devil. It's just a lot, lot harder, and when it happens, it's a big deal. It's kind of the reverse of a fallen angel.
But back on topic... conflicts like this are tough. A friend of mine was running a campaign set in Irrisen several years ago, and my neutral good bard character was increasingly disturbed by how the party's cleric of Abadar was so gung-ho to raise up zombies and skeletons from our slain enemies to bolster the group's power. The other players in the group were pretty apathetic and not all that interested in the roleplaying element of the game or agreed with the paladin, and as a result I had my character abandon the group and leave the campaign, essentially. I built a new character to replace him—an amoral chaotic neutral ranger bounty hunter type character who fit in much better with the party's dynamic.
Two amusing anecdotes...
1) When my character left the party, he snuck out without so much saying goodbye because he was pretty sure that some of the other characters in the group would try to force him to stay or attack him, and that action kind of derailed the entire campaign for a few sessions as the cleric of Abadar and a few others simply wouldn't give up trying to find him, so convinced they were that my character had been charmed or magically controlled by some enemy and that I was just "roleplaying my character sneaking off to report to the bad guys about the other players' secrets."
2) One session after my bard left the group, the amoral cleric of Abadar realized just how much it cost to cast animate dead so much and balked at wasting so much gold on such fragile undead as skeletons and zombies, and gave up on the tactic entirely. (rolls eyes)
What I'm saying is that in the end, when you have a big conflict like this in a group, often the best solution is to have one of the conflicted players simply bite the bullet and retire their character and then remake a new character that fits the overall party dynamic. Obviously, this solution won't work if you don't have a mature group, and even when it DOES work, it can be frustrating. I really liked my bard character in that game, for example.
It typed this segment into google translate and found something interesting.
The Fighter's player has taken the situation very personally because her old DM screwed her over in favor of evil characters a lot, and I think I've accidentally given her the impression I'm doing the same. She feels that if I let the Oracle get the imp back it invalidates HER character.
The Fighter player is very whiny and has a history of claiming moral indignation when other players don't roleplay the way she likes. She is making demands on everyone around her because she expects everyone to have fun her way or not at all.
I doubt this is a one time problem. I would tell the player to not make demands on others. If it is a matter of character integrity, simply making another can fix it, but it sounds like this is an issue with the player and not the character.
Interesting, this fighter, how much did she have invested into knowledge planes?
How did this fighter know so much about devils and soul corruption?
How did the fighter know what alignment the imp is?
In other words, the fighter was meta gaming like mad.
so the first thing that should have been done as a GM is put a fast stop to that.
The imp can also change shape, so wasn't necessarily in its devil form to reveal it's self to goo characters. Unlike the fighter, the IMP can tell who is good as who is evil.
I dont recall the situation but I do remember the imp being in a cage at the golden goblin and something about "come gamble at the golden goblin and cheat the devil"
As an Imp, he could have just said, well I was captured by this guy vancaskerin, and I'm actually a sprite, see a I actually look like this: poof" Vancaskerin was just forcing me to shape change into that, now that I am freed I'm not forced into that shape anymore, because it was the magical curse of the cage"
Blah blah blah.
They really only have vancaskerins word to go on that "that" is a "devil"
Dude it was a publicity stunt get over it.
He's also hiding drow in the basement, who you gonna believe?
The fighter is totally using out of game knowledge in this situation.
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Interesting, this fighter, how much did she have invested into knowledge planes?
How did this fighter know so much about devils and soul corruption?
How did the fighter know what alignment the imp is?In other words, the fighter was meta gaming like mad.
so the first thing that should have been done as a GM is put a fast stop to that.
The imp can also change shape, so wasn't necessarily in its devil form to reveal it's self to goo characters. Unlike the fighter, the IMP can tell who is good as who is evil.
I dont recall the situation but I do remember the imp being in a cage at the golden goblin and something about "come gamble at the golden goblin and cheat the devil"
As an Imp, he could have just said, well I was captured by this guy vancaskerin, and I'm actually a sprite, see a I actually look like this: poof" Vancaskerin was just forcing me to shape change into that, now that I am freed I'm not forced into that shape anymore, because it was the magical curse of the cage"
Blah blah blah.
They really only have vancaskerins word to go on that "that" is a "devil"
Dude it was a publicity stunt get over it.
He's also hiding drow in the basement, who you gonna believe?The fighter is totally using out of game knowledge in this situation.
That's a lot of assumptions your making. also i think this is glorion, i don't think you need a rank of knowledge planes to know that imps are evil and will try to corrupt you. I consider that would be common knowledge. What however he might need ranks in knowledge either in religeon or planes to know, is that it's possible to redeem them. From where I'm sitting the Good aligned fighter is acting just as i would expect her to, and the oracle is acting exactly how i expect her to.
I don't think either player or GM has done anything wrong in this situation.
I think the best solution would be for in game, is for the oracle to somehow prove to the fighter that the imp can be redeem, or come to an agreement, where if the imp steps out of line, the fighter gets to act, which would be a good roleplaying oppurtunity for all involved.
Interesting, this fighter, how much did she have invested into knowledge planes?
How did this fighter know so much about devils and soul corruption?
How did the fighter know what alignment the imp is?In other words, the fighter was meta gaming like mad.
so the first thing that should have been done as a GM is put a fast stop to that.
The imp can also change shape, so wasn't necessarily in its devil form to reveal it's self to goo characters. Unlike the fighter, the IMP can tell who is good as who is evil.
I dont recall the situation but I do remember the imp being in a cage at the golden goblin and something about "come gamble at the golden goblin and cheat the devil"
As an Imp, he could have just said, well I was captured by this guy vancaskerin, and I'm actually a sprite, see a I actually look like this: poof" Vancaskerin was just forcing me to shape change into that, now that I am freed I'm not forced into that shape anymore, because it was the magical curse of the cage"
Blah blah blah.
They really only have vancaskerins word to go on that "that" is a "devil"
Dude it was a publicity stunt get over it.
He's also hiding drow in the basement, who you gonna believe?The fighter is totally using out of game knowledge in this situation.
So knowing what something is goes off your knowledge vs its CR.
A black bear is a CR 3, 1 more then an Imp.
So less people can tell what a bear is by looking at then know what an Imp is.
Is this really how you run a game?
If a commoner doesn't have ranks in knowledge Nature they don't know what a horse is? (Cr only 1 less then the Imp)
Not trying to be a jerk, but that just sounds a bit off.