Shuriken Ninja - 7 Attacks at Lvl. 8?

[MJDGoldeneye]

I put together a Lvl. 8 Catfolk Ninja 4/Fighter 4, and, after reading stuff everywhere about Rapid Short and Two-Weapon Fighting being applicable to thrown weapons, including Shuriken, I question whether this insane build is actually intended to be legal.

- BAB of at least +6 - 2 iterative attacks.
- Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved-Two Weapon Fighting - 2 iterative off-hand attacks.
- Rapid Shot - 1 additional attack.
- Flurry of Stars - 2 more attacks.

That should work out to be 5 main-hand attacks and 2 off-hand attacks, all of them being -6 to hit.

It doesn't seems ludicrously overpowered (and the Flurry of Stars can't be used all day), but it definitely makes shuriken look less bad against everything that doesn't have a huge AC or DR.

With 18 Dex (and 12 Str) plus Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and +1 Shuriken, I think I end up doing something like +8/+8/+8/+8/+8/+3/+3 with 1d2+5 damage on each hit. (My math may be off because I don't have my sheet here and it's 3AM, but it's not far from there if all of that applies.)

Am I wrong (critically) here? I mean, we're not talking crazy elephant-riding Cavalier with a +2 lance martial damage here, but 7 attacks just seems really funny.

[kyrt-ryder]

-6 to hit is RUTHLESS MJD. Trust me on that, it's worse than pushing all your attacks down one iterative rank.

So, with enough luck, buffing of your attack rolls, or debuffing of your enemy's AC, it can be vicious, but it really isn't anything all that special.

[Cao Phen]

Though the number of attacks looks fearsome, if you are dumping 7 +1 shurikens per round, you might be wondering where that hole inside your pocket came from by Round 2.

Its nice that you found out its weakness to DR. If you have a creature that has DR/10, then you might be in a pinch. You can try Deadly Aim to change the output to -2 Attack/+4 Damage per shot, so it would be +6x5/+1x2 1d2+9

[kyrt-ryder]

Let me put it this way. At CR 8, average monster AC is 21

That means against the average 'easy' opponent at your level, your +8 attacks would require a roll of 13 or better, or roughly 35% of them will hit.

Your +3 attacks will require a roll of 18 or better, meaning you're REALLY shooting for the stars with those ninja stars, and that Improved Two Weapon Fighting was basically a wasted feat.

[Cao Phen]

Though remember that the ninja doesn't NEED to do the Flurry of Stars, Rapid Shot, or any other variables. It can go to a decent +12/+12/+7/+7. A single shuriken attack would be +14 for stuff like trying to move to an open spot.

[Serisan]

Tengu fighters can have up to 5 attacks at level 1, with Tengu Rogues/Ninjas managing this by level 2, albeit in melee and utilizing TWF + Improved Unarmed. The level 2 Ninja can also spend a ki for an additional attack, making the routine +1/+1+1/-4/-4/-4 before stat modifications (i.e. no STR included). I'm failing to see where the problem is here with a level 12 character making 7 ranged attacks.

For reference, if you go straight Ninja, you can do the same at level 8. All of these attacks are Sneak Attack ready and ALL of them scale with the Amulet of Mighty Fists.

[Drakkiel]

Yes, you can get that many attacks and yes, you will have a hard time hitting, but lets say you do hit with every single attack...thats only 7d2+35 total for average of 42 with max of 49, you are using up expensive ammo that would need to be replenished too

A fighter archer or ranger at that same level using a +1 composite longbow (+1 str rating as well) and the same stats and feats plus Manyshot and can add Deadly Aim since he doesn't take as many negatives, gets a total of 3 attacks, 4 arrows, and does 4d8+27 with an average of 43 with max of 59 his attacks being about the same for hit at +9
/+9/+4, and he can get someone to maybe cast Gravity Bow on him (or do it himself if able) to net a much larger amount on each arrow making it 8d6+27 with an average of 51 and a max of 75

The archer has you be in damage, and takes no negatives for shooting at 30 ft, while your shurikens only have a range of 10ft for no negatives, after that its another -2 per increment.

Now I'm not saying that shurikens can't be used well...but simply getting more attacks doesn't always mean more damage :)

(if my math be wrong please let me know)

[Hayato Ken]

I think you need Quick Draw for this to work.

The things is that this would make more sense if you would be able to put sneak attack on those attacks, making it easier to hit (flat-footed or +2 from flanking) and more damage. But for flanking you need to be in melee and have to threaten, which would mean snap shot.

[Drakkiel]

Quick Draw isn't needed for shuriken, they draw as ammo (free action), quick draw is only needed for other thrown weapons. And I agree if you could get sneak attack then the extra attacks would be much better, IF you have more melee in your group for flanking, say 2 fighters or 1 fighter and a paladin, get the feat Gang Up

Quote:

Gang Up (Combat)

You are adept at using greater numbers against foes.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Benefit: You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Normal: You must be positioned opposite an ally to flank an opponent.

While I could see a GM stating that this HAS to be melee, the feat itself doesn't say that so maybe that would work for you getting ranged flanking, but only on the enemy your allies are flanking

EDIT: UNTIL you get Invisible Blade that is :)

[Calel101]

@drakkiel would this build suddenly become valid if the shurikens did d6 per hit? With the addition of the warpriest in the ACG making scaling damage based on one weapon which you select weapon focus with I would love to see d6s or d8s as shuriken.

In general; I don't see how TWF helps? It allows you to throw a 2nd in your off hand at -2/-2? Am I having a lapse in brain function or is this applicable?

[BigDTBone]

10th Level Human Ninja

PBS
Deadly Aim
TWF
ITWF
Extra Rogue Talent (Ninja)
Rapid Shot

Flurry of Stars
Vanishing Trick
Invisible Blade
Deadly Range
Powerful Sneak
Deadly Sneak

Wand of Greater Magic Weapon (CL12)

STR 14 DEX 20

Gives 7 Attacks +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5 against flat-footed.

base(1d2+10) + sneak attack (5d4+10) = AVG 34dmg per attack.

If 1/2 your attacks connect then AVG 136dmg.

Haste is your friend.

After 10th level I would go Fighter or Sohei Monk for weapon training and gloves of dueling. Anything and everything to boost that to hit.

[Calel101]

No Precise Shot BigTDBone?