Something I was thinking about:
Wizards get spell specialization, and every level they get to change it to a different spell if they wish. Why can't martial classes, especially fighters do the same thing with all their weapon focus/spec/dazzling display, etc?
I use this as a houserule in my game, it is pretty nice for fighters to actually use the loot they find instead of immediately selling and enchanting the same sword they have had forever.
There is feat re-training...
|
My attempt at a level 7 barbarian using the 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 8 array :
I admit, he's not the talker everybody is saying about barbarians, but he certainly has out of combat utility that doesn't cost him half of his feats.
Stats:
Str 18
Dex:14
Con: 14
Wis: 13
Int: 12
Cha:8
HP: 68
AC: 21
DR 3/-
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, ERP: Reckless Abandon, ERP: Witch Hunter, ERP: Spell Sunder
Rage Powers:
2:Beast Totem, Lesser
4: Superstitious
6:Beast Totem
Extra: Reckless Abandon
Extra: Witch Hunter
Extra: Spell Sunder
Skills (42):
Know Nature (7): +11
Perception (7): +11
Climb (2): +9
Swim (2): +9
Acrobatics (3): +8
Intimidate (7): +9
Survival (7): +11
Sense Motive(7) +12
Traits: +1 sense motive (class skill)
+1 Will save
Favored Class Points go into boosting Superstition
Saves (raging in parentheses, assumes supersition):
Fort: 8(15)
Ref: 5(10)
Will: 5(10)
Attacks(rage in parentheses):
Greatsword: +12(+18) 2d6+7(12)
Greatsword Power Attack: +10(+16) 2d6+13(+18)
WBL 23,500
+1 Mithral Breasplate: 5500 or so
+1 Furious Greatsword 8350
Belt of Giant Strength +2 4000
Ring of Protection +1 2000
Wand of CLW (for a friend to use) 750
Cloak of Resistance +1
Amulet of Nat Armor +1
He certainly isn't as tanky, but his damage output is far superior, he contributes greatly out of combat with sense motive, the physical skills, intimidate, Know(nature) and it didn't cost him his favored class point to have more skills/level. He didn't use any feats on getting/improving his class skills. In addition, his saves are phenomenally better than the fighter. His HP is admittedly lower but normally I wouldn't use this array, and he'd have a 16 con so I could use raging vitality.
EDIT: Needed to fix the stats, and I shorted myself a feat
|
|
@ kiinyan
I think you have one left stat point (the one from level 4). If you use it in con you can take raging vitality.
I don't, I believe. I went: 15,14,14,13,12,8 which totals to 20. If I did have the con for it I'd switch combat reflexes out for it.
One other thing: I forgot to add the belt of giant str so increase the damage and attack bonus of my calculations by 1.
Agree to disagree on full attacks, then. Full attacks start to be fantastically devastating once your party has haste and iterative attacks, such that it seems sensible to not allow them at all times. One of our high level parties invested in wands of Telekinetic Charge for use on the fighter and ranger; it promptly wrecked any semblance of a fair fight with the enemy unless they were massively templated and buffed-up demigods.
They are devastating, but no more so in the long run than a caster who tosses AoE battlefield control spells and buffs around. Black Tentacles can screw over a good number of people, for example, and that's a fairly low level option.
The difference is that the effects are more direct and easier to see.
"The Barbarian just did 300 damage to that thing! Holy s&*# nerf!" is easy to see, but "The Wizard Hasted the party after buffing them with Greater Heroism, while the other caster slapped Good Hope on them! That raised their DPR quite significantly!" is much harder (for a comparison, my level 14 Barbarian 12/Fighter 2 does about 114 DPR normally, and 160 DPR with Haste. The Greater Heroism/Good Hope combo pushes him up to a little over 200. Granted this is with a +6 equivalent Courageous weapon adding an extra boost, but that's still a significant jump.)
It wouldn't help touch AC either, but yeah, overall that would be a pretty nice AC buff. I might need to look at maybe playing a barbarian soon.
Barbarians are pretty much the most fun martial class, IMO. I'd suggest giving them a try.
Yeah, and they don't have the rage limits of 3.5. Takes a pure barb quite a while to tire, or they have to use a lot of their points very fast. Fighter barb runs out of rage a lot quicker.
@princeimrahil
1)usually my fighters do not dump int and mostly use my favord class bonus for skill or CMD. So?, the otehr classes still have more out of combat utility with much less reaources, and the fighter still does not fighter better.
Let's try and stay specific to our original point - whether or not fighters are particularly worse off than other martials at doing "non-combat stuff." I submit that they aren't. Now, wizards and clerics etc. are certainly going to be best at "utility," but they're superior to ALL the martial classes in that regard - so let's stick to the original point.
At this point, simply repeating your point view isn't particularly productive - *show* me why your perspective is right (i.e. give me a build).
2) CLimb and swim? come one. yeah, I spend skill poits in climb and swim, they are useful from time to time. But they are far from useful as other skill, much less as others things. Still, a barbarian clibm and swim equally good as the fighter, and have 2 other skills for whatever else he want to be. And stil he fight at leas as good as the fighter.
What else is a barbarian going to do? Their class skill list is not that great. They can't be any better at social interaction than a fighter, nor are they going to be any better at scouting. Once again: show me a build.
3) Rage power are better than most feat, hands down. There are good fighter only feats (pin donw, for example) still, they are few. And no feat really compare with the beast totem and the superstitions rage powers chains (excetp dazin assault, but barbarian can have that too).
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, but let me also remind you again: we're talking about whether or not a fighter can do things other than fight as well as other martial classes. Those rage powers that you mentioned to me are not "utility" powers - they're all combat powers.
4) Fighter are highly customizable IN COMBAT, maybe the thing I most like about the class. Why the have to be so non-customizable out of combat?
They are exactly as customizable as any other pathfinder class - they can take any skills they want.
5) About halfling, you are wrong. Still cha is a dump stat for ahflings fighters. you can of course, rise that stat and be good at diplomacy but the advantage of a high CHA would neve be that high as for paladins. Paladins in combat abilities is tied to cha, a fighter with a high cha sffers in his combat prowess.
So, in order to achieve paladin levels of diplomacy you have to sacrifice the only feature of the class (it combat prowess).
Let's do a little math. The average Paladin is going to rock what, a 16 Charisma? And diplomacy is a class skill, so he's getting +6 on top of his skill ranks.
Let's say we build a halfing fighter who still "dumps" Cha to 8, but then gets that +2 racial bonus, putting him at ten. So no modifiers either way. He takes Extremely Fashionable (or any of several other traits), and now he's got diplomacy as a class skill (and a +1 bonus once he has a little extra cash for nice duds). He spends one feat: skill focus: diplomacy, and now he has an extra +3 bonus (that will become a +6 bonus when he puts 10 ranks into the skill). So at the cost of one feat and a trait, and while STILL dumping CHA, a halfling fighter can actually be SLIGHTLY BETTER at diplomacy than a standard paladin (who will get ranks +6, whereas this short fighter will get ranks +7).
Like I said, if you actually sit down and try building a more versatile fighter, you'll find that it can be done. You just have to use some creativity.
6)I do not dump int and cha for fithters (not both, and not to 7), the same way you should not suppose people just dump int and cha for barbarians.
I make that assumption because usually the response to people making balanced fighter builds is saying that they're not "optimal" and they will fall behind other martial classes. However, they fall behind other OPTIMIZED martial classes, which themselves usually aren't very good at things other than fighting, so... yeah, it all comes back to how you build your character.
I know you're busy with stuff, but I look forward to seeing your barbarian build when you've got time.
|
|
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, but let me also remind you again: we're talking about whether or not a fighter can do things other than fight as well as other martial classes. Those rage powers that you mentioned to me are not "utility" powers - they're all combat powers.Yes, and the barbarian can take them without woryng of having to few skill ppoints. If you want to have skills as a fighter then you have to sacrifize combat prowess.
But lets see, 20 pb, two traits, level 7 barbarian (mostly kyiiyan build)
** spoiler omitted **
Few things of note: Spell Sunder requires witch hunter, the +2 will bonus from rage doesn't stack w/ superstition.
The npc fighters I make to oppose my players always have a few things they are good of outside of combat, because as characters that have lived their lives, and their lives have not just been combat.
Maybe they are gamblers and liars (bluff), maybe they have an honest profession (blacksmithing, sailor), maybe they are watchmen that don't fight all that much prior to adventuring (take profession: guard of the warch, perception and sense motive). The system has some flexibility, but the only thing the fighter is served up on a platter, is feats, hp, bab, nice fort and combat abilities.
It can cost some skills and feats to do something else, such is the price we pay in this system. As much as some hate upon the rogue with abandon, a single level gives the fighter access to a lot more skill-build options, a nice level of skills to unlock class bonuses and a handy bonus to damage should you catch a foe unawares.
Not powerful, not magical, not super op and game breaking, I know. They are the most normal of all the classes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The essential problem was that in 3.0 they decided to differentiate the 2 martial non-magical base classes by having the Fighter sacrifice non-combat utility for the sake of damage dealing capacity (although the increases in NPC HPs tend to negate that in many ways) while the Rogue sacrifices combat utility for being useful out of combat.
This artificial and frankly unnecessary divide in order to maintain an strictly defined class role has been unfortunately carried forward across the successor iterations of 3.x/PF even though it really wasn't that useful and was largely a design choice of 3.0. In contrast AD&D even with the optional NWP system has less of a differential between rogues and warriors in terms of non-combat utility.
Once you get past the artificial need for niche protection between the Rogue and the Fighter you can contemplate a more balanced system where the rogue is more of a dexterity and trickery based warrior and the fighter is more of a front-line smash and bash warrior and you can easily blend the two roles with skill and feat choices.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just wait, Swashbuckler, full BAB, 6+INT skills/level, Grit, Rogue Talents, and Bonus Feats. Calling it now that class will have the options people are wanting.
Just wait, Swashbuckler, full BAB, 6+INT skills/level, Grit, Rogue Talents, and Bonus Feats. Calling it now that class will have the options people are wanting.
I'd guess 4+Int at most, being a combo of a 4+Int class and a 2+Int class.
But 4+Int is plenty enough.
My attempt at a level 7 barbarian using the 14, 14, 14, 14, 12, 8 array :
I admit, he's not the talker everybody is saying about barbarians, but he certainly has out of combat utility that doesn't cost him half of his feats.
** spoiler omitted **
He certainly isn't as tanky, but his damage output is far superior, he contributes greatly out of combat with sense motive, the physical skills, intimidate, Know(nature) and it didn't cost him his favored class point to have more skills/level. He didn't use any feats on getting/improving his class skills. In addition, his saves are phenomenally better than the fighter. His HP is admittedly lower but normally I wouldn't use this array, and he'd have a 16 con so I could use raging vitality.EDIT: Needed to fix the stats, and I shorted myself a feat
His damage output is better because I built a sword-and-board fighter (I've been playing two-handers for a while, so I'm a bit bored with them). For a better comparison, I did a quick tweak to make him into a two-hander (and to actually include traits - my group usually doesn't use them, so I always forget to add them. Also I forgot to include the extra stat point at level 4).
Human Fighter 7
Str 18 (20)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 (+1 at level 4) = 14
Wis 12
Cha 8
HP: 74
AC: 24
Fort: +8 Ref: +5 Will: +6
Skills (38): Acrobatics 5/+7, Climb 5/+13, Knowledge: Dungeoneering 3/+8, Knowledge: Engineering 1/+6, Survival 5/+9, Perception 5/+12, Diplomacy 7/+12, Intimidate 5/+7, Swim 2/+10
Feats (8): Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Toughness, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Skill Focus: Perception, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Iron Will
Traits: Extremely Fashionable, Eyes and Ears of the City
Relevant Abilities: Weapon Training 1, Armor Training 2
WBL 23,500
+1 Mithral Full Plate 10,650
+1 Two-handed Weapon 2,000
Amulet of Natural Armor +1 2,000
Ring of Protection +1 2,000
Belt of Giant Str +2 4,000
Cloak of Resistance +1 1,000
Fancy Duds: 150
Attacks: +15/+10 (+15/+8 w/ Power Attack)
Damage: 2d6+11 (2d6+17 w/ Power Attack)
Comparing these two, we see the following:
1) IF the barbarian is raging, he somewhat outperforms the fighter in damage and attack bonuses. When he isn't raging, he somewhat underperforms against the fighter. This is pretty much what we expect of these two classes - rage is a limited use ability, so it delivers a little more bang for the buck.
2) Saves are comparable when not raging. Barb's are substantially better while raging, but Superstition does carry a bit of a catch in the "you have to make saves against friendly spells too." I know some people think it's still a good tradeoff, and I can see their reasoning, but I'm not as sold on it (I'm more of a team player guy).
3) Skills are very comparable. Both classes outperform the other in a few skills, and are very close to each other in a few other. They also have the same breadth/type of skills: the barbarian has a couple of social skills, some knowledge, and some athletics, and so do does the fighter (though the barbarian's knowledge is more specialized whereas the fighter's is more broad). If we pushed a few skill points around here or there, they'd probably be virtually identical.
4) Even two-handing, the fighter has a better AC than the barbarian (and the barbarian's will only get worse when he rages). The barbarian does have some DR to help offset this, though.
5) The barbarian actually has LESS hp than the fighter - and while I appreciate your point that normally you would pump his Con higher (I would too, personally) - those ability points have to come from SOMEWHERE, which means that he's going to be sacrificing some offensive combat ability or some of his skills... making him not outshine the fighter in either of those areas.
So personally, I think this build comparison illustrates my point - one certainly can build a fighter that has as much out of combat utility as other martials (with the possible exception of rangers) without making him useless in combat.
Does the barbarian pack a little more punch? In the short term, probably, but there other circumstances where I think the fighter proves his worth (e.g. when the barbarian cannot rage due to fatigue or having run out of rounds).
And of course, this is only a snapshot at level 7. Comparison at different levels might show us a different picture, but I think this is a good place to do it, since once you break into the double-digits you're just going to be letting the spellcasters handle all of the utility problems anyway.
|
|
{quote=princeimrahil] Human Fighter 7
Str 18 (20)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 (+1 at level 4) = 14
Wis 12
Cha 8
I can't quite trace where this stat array is coming from.
16 str (10 points) +2 racialDex 14 (5 points)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 13 (3 points)
Wis 12 (2 points)
Cha 8 (-2 points)
still puts you 3 over the limit. If you dropped starting str to 15 and didn't bump the int it would work I think.
That being said, I do appreciate the versatility of the fighter presented. I do cringe at the skill focuses, because simply there are better feats that can be bought than getting +3 to skills.
Also I don't know how you are calculating skill points
SP 38: (2+int(2))*7 +7(human)=28+7=35
You're also shorting yourself one feat.
Flavor wise I also appreciate that the barbarian presented has more options than I hit it every round through his spell sunder, and also will later on have significantly more damage output simply through pounce saving him a round.
What else is a barbarian going to do? Their class skill list is not that great. They can't be any better at social interaction than a fighter, nor are they going to be any better at scouting. Once again: show me a build.
But barbarians CAN be better at social interaction. With Intimidating Prowess (a quite common feat) and Rage, their Intimidate skill will be higher with equal skill point/feat investment. A barbarian can have a higher strength than a fighter have, even if they start with equal stats.
So, at say 5th level, half-orcs with stats of 18/14/14/10/13/10 (20 pb buy with 1 extra point in str), and both with Intimidating Prowess and maxed ranks, the fighter has +14 Intimidate and the barbarian can rage to get +16 Intimidate. If using it to change the attitude of someone she'll need to spend most of her rage per day, but it's something the fighter can't even do. And with Intimidating Glare, she can force two saves in a single round and make the target shakened for many rounds; continuously doing this when the old duration is about to run out will keep the target shakened, opening up for other characters' intimidation/diplomacy better.And of course, since the fighter gains 2-3 skill points per level and the barbarian gains 4-5 skill points per level, the fighter cannot max out all social skills even if she wants to, while the barbarian can and might still have skill points over.
Neither the barbarian nor the fighter are very good socially, but while neither can be "good cop" very well, the barbarian is better than the fighter at being "bad cop" at least.
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, but let me also remind you again: we're talking about whether or not a fighter can do things other than fight as well as other martial classes. Those rage powers that you mentioned to me are not "utility" powers - they're all combat powers.
There are very good utility powers, Spell Sunder being the primary example and one of the absolutely most game-changing powers in the game. I mean, no other class can get to destroy demiplanes at will.
Oh, there's a Wall of Force blocking the way? GROG SMASH
Oh, the rogue was out scouting and was hit by a dominate person and is now attacking the party? GROG SMASH
Oh, the artifact is protected by several layers of Symbol Spells? GROG FULL-ATTACK SMASH WHILE CLOSING EYES!!! GROG HAVE BLIND-FIGHT!!!
Other very notable utility rage powers include Scent, Intimidating Glare, and Strength Surge. They are all very good, hard to match for a fighter, and Strength Surge mixes very well together with Spell Sunder.
They are exactly as customizable as any other pathfinder class - they can take any skills they want.
You do know that every class except the fighter and monk can choose class abilities that aid in social interaction, and the monk has two more skill points per level and Sense Motive as a class skill?
Claiming all classes are "exactly as customizable" because all have skills - and ignoring both the amount of skills and all non-skill abilities - is a really bad argument.
And when comparin your builds, you leave out the absolutely critical difference in Spell Sunder; being able to remove magic (even those that are immune to dispel magic, something not even the wizard can do at this point!) is a HUGE utility.
Also, with 16 rounds of rage, that should last through most of the average AP adventuring day - the barb can no doubt rage in every fight that's even somewhat a threat to the party.
Also, note that you simply state that superstition isn't that big of a benefit - now if you don't consider it that big of a benefit, for the purpose of this comparision it could have just as easily been an additional 7 skill points instead, which makes quite a difference.
Oh, and you forgot to consider that the barbarian is immune to hot/cold environment effects as Endure Elements and has Fire Resistance 3 (which is enough to pretty safely run through a burning building). And that the barbarian has a 40ft speed while the fighter is stuck at 30 ft, which of course doesn't just have in-combat usefulness.
Also, note that your fighter is optimized for what you CURRENTLY meet, while the barbarian has put a lot of resources into long-term investments. If I'd do a barbarian for this comparison, not investing in stuff that come into play later that the fighter can't replicate and that you can just ignore for the comparison, I'd go more like this:
{quote=princeimrahil] Human Fighter 7
Str 18 (20)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13 (+1 at level 4) = 14
Wis 12
Cha 8
I can't quite trace where this stat array is coming from.
16 str (10 points) +2 racialDex 14 (5 points)
Con 14 (5 points)
Int 13 (3 points)
Wis 12 (2 points)
Cha 8 (-2 points)
still puts you 3 over the limit. If you dropped starting str to 15 and didn't bump the int it would work I think.
Ah, yeah - it looks like I goofed the math - but I think you're right, I can drop Str to 15 at start and put that extra ability point into it.
That being said, I do appreciate the versatility of the fighter presented. I do cringe at the skill focuses, because simply there are better feats that can be bought than getting +3 to skills.
I see "better" as being relative - fighters get tons of feats, so the "cost" of picking up something like skill focus is lower than for other classes. Also, after spending those two feats, I won't need to spend any more on skill boosters, especially since skill focus scales up (granting an extra +3 at 10 ranks). I think that, in particular, is what makes it pay off - if you're thinking in the long-term, it's spending one feat to get a +6 bonus, which is really pretty great.
And yes, there are other good combat feats - but I wanted to make a fighter who was pretty good at other things. He doesn't need those two extra feats to be able to do his job - he can still bring the pain in a way that's comparable to barbarians. I will be less optimized for combat *by definition* because the only way to be *optimized* for combat is to put all of your resources into it. But not being *optimized* doesn't necessarily mean being useless (and I think we both agree here).
But I appreciate your honest appraisal of this. I think many players might well still prefer playing barbarians or other martials, and that's fine, but I hope I've shown how fighters can still do things other than fight.
Also I don't know how you are calculating skill points
SP 38: (2+int(2))*7 +7(human)=28+7=35You're also shorting yourself one feat.
Levels 7 x2 = 14
Int = +7Favored Class = +7
Human = +7
That's 35. Originally, when I got the abilities wrong, I put the 4th level "bump" into Int, which translated into a few extra skills points (though even now I see that it should have been 4, bringing me up to 39, instead of 3, but whatever).
And, wow - I did somehow miss a feat. I guess it just wasn't a good night for me and math. There's a lot of great ones to choose from - improved iron will being a particularly attractive one, I think.
Flavor wise I also appreciate that the barbarian presented has more options than I hit it every round through his spell sunder, and also will later on have significantly more damage output simply through pounce saving him a round.
Yeah, I think looking into the "future" of their builds would show some interesting things. The barb's going to be getting those full attacks, which is really nice, and as the fighter's armor training improves, he can switch out to adamantine full plate (to pick up a nice little slice of DR) and he can begin exploring some of the deadlier feat chains (like the crit line, which will give him some nasty debuffs). I think one difference, though, is that the fighter is going to pull way ahead of the barbarian in certain skills (diplomacy and perception) in a few levels, when the extra skill focus bonuses come in. So while the barbarian's edge in smashing things is going to probably increase vis-a-vis the fighter, the fighter's out-of-combat utility is going to improve over the barbarian's. A pretty reasonable comparison, I think.
Thanks for taking the time to compare builds. Makes for a much more productive discussion, I think.
If one wants to make the barbarian build more optimized for a comparision like this, thus making it more in line with Imrahil's build, do this:
In addition I have no idea what the second trait is and it seems to not give any bonus in the stat sheet, but if we assume the first is survivor or world traveler the second can be highlander.
Put 3 FC skill points in acrobatics, and 2 each in climb/swim (don't like 1-pointing stuff, feels a bit too "gamey" tbh)
Note also that there where some miscalculations from what I can see in the skills department for the barbarian; ignored int modifier on knowledge, ignored wis modifier on perception etc.
That would mean an out-of-combat Spell Sunder at a +23 CMB if I'm correct (I'm bad at CMB/CMD, but it should be +7 BAB +6 STR + 7 Strength Surge, right?) meaning it can supress most spell effects in the game and on average remove any spell effect with a caster level of 6 or less, and can sunder up to 14 times per day (assuming no other raging).
Comparing the skills after I recalculated the barbs ones (and correct me if I missed anything). These are skills for each character while in armor (though the armor penalty is 1 for them both, though climb/jump isn't affected for the barb):
Barbarian:
Intimidate (7): +13 (+15 rage)
Know Nature (7): +12
Perception (7): +11
Acrobatics (6): +11 (+16 jump)
Survival (7): +11
Sense Motive(7): +11
Diplomacy (7): +10
Climb (3): +10 (+12 rage)
Swim (3): +9 (+11 rage)
Stealth (2): +8 (+9 in hilly terrain)
Fighter:
Climb +12
Perception +12
Diplomacy +12
Swim +9
Survival +9
Knowledge: Dungeoneering +8
Intimidate +7
Acrobatics +8
Knowledge: Engineering +6
The barbarian both has more skills above +10 (8 vs 3) and more skills above +5 (10 vs 9). The barbarian also has more circumstantial bonuses, some of which will apply often (+16 jump is quite nice tbh).
My conclusion would be:
The barbarian and fighter where comparable in direct combat, the fighter being a bit better in AC and a bit more longetivity, the barbarian being better at damage, speed, vs lots of weak mooks, and sunder. A draw.
The barbarian is noticeably better at skills, but not overpoweringly so; both are decent at skills for being martial characters, but the barbarian is actually quite GOOD. The total modifiers for the trained skills where 106 for the barb and 83 for the fighter, though that is a crude measurement. Win for the barbarian.
For non-skill utility abilities, the barbarian is miles ahead. Higher speed (for the obligatory chase sequences), immunity to heat and chilliness, fire resistance 3, spell sunder. Win for the barbarian.
That is my assessment of the situation at least, feel free to make a different one.
But barbarians CAN be better at social interaction. With Intimidating Prowess (a quite common feat) and Rage, their Intimidate skill will be higher with equal skill point/feat investment. A barbarian can have a higher strength than a fighter have, even if they start with equal stats.
So, at say 5th level, half-orcs with stats of 15/14/14/10/13/10 (20 pb buy with 1 extra point in str), and both with Intimidating Prowess and maxed ranks, the fighter has +14 Intimidate and the barbarian can rage to get +16 Intimidate. If using it to change the attitude of someone she'll need to spend most of her rage per day, but it's something the fighter can't even do. And with Intimidating Glare, she can force two saves in a single round and make the target shakened for many rounds; continuously doing this when the old duration is about to run out will keep the target shakened, opening up for other characters' intimidation/diplomacy better.
The thing is, we're getting into Schroedinger's Barbarian territory here. All of these options require the investment of limited resources (skill points, feats, ability scores). We can't really evaluate them outside of specific builds, because in order to set up this neat intimidate trick, you need to devote rage powers, skill points, and feats into it - all of which will detract from the barbarian's offensive output. My point remains the same: the fighter can still be a competitive warrior and have out of combat utility as well as other martials (possibly excepting rangers) - other martials will noticeably outshine them in combat only when *they* neglect their own versatility.
And of course, since the fighter gains 2-3 skill points per level and the barbarian gains 4-5 skill points per level, the fighter cannot max out all social skills even if she wants to, while the barbarian can and might still have skill points over.
I'm amazed at how often people keep coming back to "barbarians get more skill points." Yes, we all recognize this, it's an obvious fact. However, the point is that a fighter doesn't necessarily have to max out every skill - they can use feats like skill focus to give them such a huge boost that they can be competitive (at times, even BETTER) than barbarians without maxing every skill. Fighters don't have to be the BEST at every skill to be useful in "utility" areas, they just have to be reasonably competent at them (and my build provides an example of a fighter who can do exactly that).
A barbarian that simply maxes out social skills, without taking any traits or feats to help out, is going to fall behind a fighter who spends a trait and takes skill focus - those bonuses add up in a huge way, and you can see this in the builds that have already been posted.
Neither the barbarian nor the fighter are very good socially, but while neither can be "good cop" very well, the barbarian is better than the fighter at being "bad cop" at least.
Only when the fighter wishes it to be so. They, too, can take intimidating prowess, and they can also take skill focus: intimidate. If they took both of those feats (chump change to them, really), they can be just as good if not better than a barbarian at intimidating.
There are very good utility powers, Spell Sunder being the primary example and one of the absolutely most game-changing powers in the game. I mean, no other class can get to destroy demiplanes at will.Oh, there's a Wall of Force blocking the way? GROG SMASH
Oh, the rogue was out scouting and was hit by a dominate person and is now attacking the party? GROG SMASH
Oh, the artifact is protected by several layers of Symbol Spells? GROG FULL-ATTACK SMASH WHILE CLOSING EYES!!! GROG HAVE BLIND-FIGHT!!!Other very notable utility rage powers include Scent, Intimidating Glare, and Strength Surge. They are all very good, hard to match for a fighter, and Strength Surge mixes very well together with Spell Sunder.
1) Rage powers are inherently combat powers, because they are measured in rounds.
2) Several of the examples you cite above are potentially (or directly) combat encounters, e.g. the rogue *attacking the party,* intimidating glare is specifically a combat power, you need so many rounds to use scent that using it outside of combat would burn up a substantial number of your rounds for the day, etc...3) Almost all of that "utility" is based on one very specific build. Not everyone wants to play a spell-sundering barbarian (partly because not everyone likes superstition that much).
And look, it IS a pretty baller ability, and definitely a game-changer, but I think you're drastically overestimating how useful it is in non-combat applications (though again, we're just going to have to agree to disagree here, because short of going through an AP step by step, there's no good way to measure this).
You do know that every class except the fighter and monk can choose class abilities that aid in social interaction, and the monk has two more skill points per level and Sense Motive as a class skill?Claiming all classes are "exactly as customizable" because all have skills - and ignoring both the amount of skills and all non-skill abilities - is a really bad argument.
What class abilities are you talking about, specifically? I don't see any on the barbarian list, nor do I find any on the paladin list. Rangers get wild empathy, I guess, but that's extremely limited in application (and not exactly "social"). Rogues get some, I'll give you that, and the casters get oodles, but try and stay on point: we're talking about the MARTIAL classes, not all classes.
Put your money where your mouth is - show me a martial build with, say, a Paladin, that has substantially more out of combat versatility than a fighter while also being a competitive warrior.
Also, with 16 rounds of rage, that should last through most of the average AP adventuring day - the barb can no doubt rage in every fight that's even somewhat a threat to the party.
Also, note that you simply state that superstition isn't that big of a benefit - now if you don't consider it that big of a benefit, for the purpose of this comparision it could have just as easily been an additional 7 skill points instead, which makes quite a difference.
I think you're stretching a bit on the rounds of rage issue. Any good DM in a regular game is going to keep pushing you instead of letting you rest after going nova in each encounter, and the APS... well, like I said, the only way to measure that is to go through one and that's a bit too tedious for me, so we'll have to agree to disagree there.
And sure, the barbarian can pick up 7 extra skill points instead, but... that doesn't make the fighter any *less* useful out of combat. The barb has pretty much hit all of his class skills already. I suppose he could pump a few more into some of his athletic skills, but that's not going to make him meaningfully more utilitarian.
So... yeah, I remain pretty convinced of my position (big surprise, I know). I would, however, like to see what you could come up with in terms of a 7th level paladin.
If one wants to make the barbarian build more optimized for a comparision like this, thus making it more in line with Imrahil's build, do this:
** spoiler omitted **That would mean an out-of-combat Spell Sunder at a +23 CMB if I'm correct (I'm bad at CMB/CMD, but it should be +7 BAB +6 STR + 7 Strength Surge, right?) meaning it can supress most spell effects in the game and on average remove any spell effect with a caster level of 6 or less, and can sunder up to 14 times per day (assuming no other raging).
Comparing the skills after I recalculated the barbs ones (and correct me if I missed anything). These are skills for each character while in armor (though the armor penalty is 1 for them both, though climb/jump isn't affected for the barb):
** spoiler omitted **...
Not to be too picky, but would you mind doing a full stat-up? It's just a lot easier for me to read/compare that way.
The thing is, we're getting into Schroedinger's Barbarian territory here. All of these options require the investment of limited resources (skill points, feats, ability scores).
Since we are discussing the class, and not a specific barbarian character, shroedinger's barbarian doesn't really apply here - your claim seemed to be that barbarians do not have more more out of combat versatility than fighters, but they very well can - they have many options that increase utility that fighters do not have; meanwhile, fighters do not have (noticable) out of combat utility options that barbarians lack.
Barbarians have more out-of-combat options. That is my claim. Not that every barbarian will automatically be better out of combat than every fighter. Just like of course a wizard could prepare magic missile in all slots and have nearly no versatility, but that doesn't mean the wizard as a class isn't more versatile than fighter as a class.
I'm amazed at how often people keep coming back to "barbarians get more skill points." Yes, we all recognize this, it's an obvious fact. However, the point is that a fighter doesn't necessarily have to max out every skill - they can use feats like skill focus to give them such a huge boost that they can be competitive (at times, even BETTER) than barbarians without maxing every skill.
This is equally much a "shroedinger fighter" - not saying that isn't okay, because it is in this discussion, just noting that we're on equal footing here.
The thing is, the barbarian have the same options of using feats to boost out of combat abilities.A 7th level fighter can have 2+Int+Misc skill points and 4 skill focus feats. A barbarian can have 4+Int+Misc skill points and 4 skill focus feats.
If the fighter gained class-based bonuses to skills (like a rogue or ranger gets) it would have been a good point, but they don't.
Only when the fighter wishes it to be so. They, too, can take intimidating prowess, and they can also take skill focus: intimidate. If they took both of those feats (chump change to them, really), they can be just as good if not better than a barbarian at intimidating.
Yes, but they cannot have as high strength (unless making very heavy ability score investments that _will_ hurt all other out of combat utility).
And of course a single fighter can be better than a single barbarian at intimidating, just like a single fighter with a potion of cure wounds is better at healing than a cleric channeling negative energy and having prepared no healing spells. That does not mean cleric as a class isn't better at healing.
With equal number of feats and skill points spent on intimidating, the barbarian will at worst be equal (no feats spent) and at best be better (intimidating prowess).
Only when the fighter wishes it to be so. They, too, can take intimidating prowess, and they can also take skill focus: intimidate. If they took both of those feats (chump change to them, really), they can be just as good if not better than a barbarian at intimidating.
But now you are comparing different investment.
If the fighter takes those feats and the barbarian takes those two feats the barbarian will still come out ahead, since it can rage for a bonus in critical situations.1) Rage powers are inherently combat powers, because they are measured in rounds.
No, they are not. Measurement in rounds does not a pure combat power make. Or are you claiming Summon Monster and Telekinesis does not add out of combat utility?
2) Several of the examples you cite above are potentially (or directly) combat encounters, e.g. the rogue *attacking the party,* intimidating glare is specifically a combat power, you need so many rounds to use scent that using it outside of combat would burn up a substantial number of your rounds for the day, etc...
The rogue attacking the party is to me less a combat issue and more of an RP issue seeing as how the physical threat is neglible for the attacked parts, and the issue is more "how do we save the rogue?" which isn't really possible by combat, but I agree it's a borderline case unfit for an argument.
But no, scent isn't that much of an issue depending on the build - for many builds it can be up practically 24/7; this is true for any of the common half-orc sunder builds out there (they can rage indefinitely as long as they sunder something successfully 1/round which is pretty much guaranteed if they want it).
Intimidating glare is in no way only a combat ability, shaken gives penalties to skill checks etc and so is very useful in social situation, giving penalties to opponent's bluff or sense motive checks. With the durations it can reach and the twice-per-round clause you can keep it going quite constantly without much rage investment.
What class abilities are you talking about, specifically? I don't see any on the barbarian list, nor do I find any on the paladin list. Rangers get wild empathy, I guess, but that's extremely limited in application (and not exactly "social"). Rogues get some, I'll give you that, and the casters get oodles, but try and stay on point: we're talking about the MARTIAL classes, not all classes.
I've already listed a bunch for the barbarian. Paladins get numerous spells like Honeyed Tongue and Zone of Truth. Rangers get wild empathy, speak with animals, perceptive cue etc. Rogues get a bunch. Cavaliers don't get that many, but some of the orders get noticable bonuses (blue rose gets 1/2 level to diplomacy for example). Alchemists, inquisitors and bards get lots of them. Gunslingers don't get any actually, but then again where they first built as a fighter archetype on the fighter chassis so not that surprising. But even they get bluff as a class skill.
I think you're stretching a bit on the rounds of rage issue. Any good DM in a regular game is going to keep pushing you instead of letting you rest after going nova in each encounter, and the APS... well, like I said, the only way to measure that is to go through one and that's a bit too tedious for me, so we'll have to agree to disagree there.
Nova in each encounter? Most AP's will put you up against 1-5 encounters per day, and most encounters will likely be decided at round 2-4, especially those days where it's as much as 5 encounters in the same day; those days at least two of the encounters are usually very trivial.
If it was 6 rounds of rage I might agree with you, but 16 will last you through most days in most AP's. I actively try to make combats last longer by equipping NPC's with more defensive gear and extra mooks, but most of the days the relevant part of combat will still be about 10-12 rounds - the rest is just mopping up (or the party fleeing for their lives).
Not to be too picky, but would you mind doing a full stat-up? It's just a lot easier for me to read/compare that way.
No problem; it's based on Nicos barb up ahead. Though I made a small error, it's fire resistance 1, not fire resistance 3 - it's clearly less useful, though the "misc" section is still a large win for the barb. I also realized what the second trait was, diplomacy as a class skill.
Human Invulnerable rager 7
Stats:
Str 18 (22)
Dex:14
Con: 14 (20)
Wis: 12
Int: 14
Cha: 10
HP: 65 (79)
AC: 21 (+7 armor, +2 dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
DR: 3/-
Fire resistance 1.
Feats: Furious focus, Power Attack, Raging vitality, Intimidating Prowess, ERP: Spell Sunder
Rage Powers:
2: Supersticious
4: Witch Hunter
6: Strength Surge
Extra: Spell Sunder
Skills (7 * (4+2+1+1) = 56) :
Intimidate (7+3+4): +14 (+16 rage)
Know Nature (7+3+2): +12
Sense Motive(7+3+2): +12
Diplomacy (7+3+2): +12
Perception (7+3+1): +11
Acrobatics (7+3+2-1): +11 (+16 jump)
Survival (7+3+1): +11
Climb (3+3+4): +10 (+12 rage)
Swim (4+3+4-1): +10 (+12 rage)
Traits: Survivor +1 sense motive (class skill), +1 initiative
Illuminator +2 diplomacy (class skill)
Saves (raging in parentheses, assumes supersition):
Fort: +8(+14)
Ref: +5(+8)
Will: +3(+6)
Attacks(rage in parentheses):
Greatsword: +12/+7(+16/+11) 2d6+7(+12)
Greatsword Power Attack: +12/+5(+16/+9) 2d6+13(+18)
+2 damage vs all with spells or SLA's (that is, most outsiders, most dragons, most PC classes at this level upwards etc).
CMB +12 (+16 when raging, +23 on sunder once per rage)
CMD 25
WBL 23,500
+1 Mithral Agile Breasplate: 5700 or so
+1 Furious Greatsword 8350
Belt of Giant Strength +2 4000
Ring of Protection +1 2000
Cloak of Resistance +1
Amulet of Nat Armor +1
May I also ask that you do a new statup after the issues Kiinyan pointed out? If they make any difference to the actual abilities that is, don't know how much they affected anything.
Right now both chars have 9 skills trained, the barbarian with an average of +11.44 and the fighter with an average of +9.22. That's a quite noticable difference.
Your link to the official video is broken.
Dammit. Who broke the seven seals and let this thread out again?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dammit. Who broke the seven seals and let this thread out again?
*quickly stuffs evidence of seven broken seals in a random person's pocket*
What seals?
Warpriest!
The second version of the warpriest (the one with basically full BAB, swift autobuffing and still 6th level spellcasting) Is clearly stronger than the fighter, IMHO. and clearly have more out of combat utility.
I wonder if it will get printed un-altered
It should be. I haven't seen the second version but it sounds like a good baseline for what the Fighter should have been.
Fighters are functional. They have about as much trouble with saves as the ranger and no one complains about the rangers saves.
There is no "problem" with fighters.
Same classes do have 'better' mechanics, but they also have pitfalls
Paladin is pretty sexy, but exist depending on how the GM interprets the vague code.
Barbars are great, but superstition makes them far less the team player they could be.
Both have class features (code/superstition) that limit the amount of strategies at the parties disposal.
Fighters have no such flaws or boons. They are the baseline. If you can cover the weakness of other classes, then those will obviously be better.
EDIT: out of combat is the easiest thing in the world to be great at. Fighter's can make intimidating prowess go a long way, and have more than enough feats to spare.
I would not worry too much about the build. I would make sure my fighter is a part of a good story and the mechanics would be secondary.
That's probably the smartest thing anyone has said in this thread.
Apparently learning weapons is as difficult/time-consuming as learning magic, since the Fighter gets the same base skill points as a Wizard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's smart in the sense that ultimately Pathfinder is a game and games are supposed to be fun. Most players don't thrive on rules minutia like we tend to do on the forums. Probably they start off taking what feats seem pretty good and choose new feats depending on the situations that come up in game. Failing a lot of will saves? Take Iron Will. Still failing a lot of will saves? Get gear that boosts will saves and consider taking Im Iron Will. The beauty of the fighter being that you can take feats that serve well at low levels (e.g., Cleave) and swap them out later on for something more relevant.
Also, most people I know don't play as much at high levels. The calculations become onerous, combat bogs down, and the narrative becomes more about PCs as superheros rather than the guys that might get in a fistfight at the local pub. As for why they're not playing a simplified version of 2e - we end up playing what our friends play. The guy who's most excited about ruleset stuff is probably the GM and so the rest of the group ends up playing that system - he's already made the investment in terms of books and all that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Fighters are functional. They have about as much trouble with saves as the ranger and no one complains about the rangers saves.
Rangers have good Fort and Reflex, more in-class benefits for having Wisdom other than just padding saves (which in a sense rewards them from padding their saves in that way), and they have Evasion, and access to spells like resist energy, delay poison, remove disease, and freedom of movement.
Fighters have no such flaws or boons. They are the baseline. If you can cover the weakness of other classes, then those will obviously be better.
EDIT: out of combat is the easiest thing in the world to be great at. Fighter's can make intimidating prowess go a long way, and have more than enough feats to spare.
On a side note, there is never a situation where as a GM I use the fighter class. Every 2 levels of warrior gives +1 CR at the same benefits as 1 level of fighter (+1 feat / CR, +2d10 hp, +2 BAB, +1 Fort, +2/3 Ref/Will). Because a fighter is nothing but some feats and base statistics.
I have reasons to use every other martial class when making NPCs sometimes, except for fighter. :P
Fighters have feats, weapon training, armor training, and bravery.
Most of which doesn't come into play unless you build the character from the ground up as fighter.
Imo Fighters cannot take advantage of their Armor Training because of the point buy system, at most a fighter is gonna have either a 14 or a 15 DEX to start with (unless he is making a DEX build) and because he has to focus on STR for DPR, which is his job, he can never really capitalize on his class ability which is actually really good.
Weapon Training is what it is, but it's not that great of an ability. Most fighters will stick with the same weapon that they picked for weapon focus and thus that focus group will be what they pick first and for the most part weapon training will never be brought up again.
That makes two class abilities that are borderline useless due to the system.
Bravery boosts the fighter's worst save against fear effects. Fear effects, and not just a boost to all Will saves is another really weak class feature imo.
The bonus feats and ability to retrain them is really the only class feature that can be used often by the fighter, and it makes them truly versatile when it comes to build options. But all of the other stuff falls short on utility which is what makes the fighter a weak class imo.
The problem isn't so much with the class but with the game system as a whole specifically when it comes to how to incorporate armor training and weapon training.
3.5 had the option of having different stat boosting items in different slots, so your fighter could have a belt of CON, gloves of STR, and bracers of DEX, all for the same price, now, wanting to raise multiple stats costs less than it does in pathfinder.
[post about issues with fighter NPCs and challenge]
Hmmm. Since I am not actively GMing, I have rarely considered the fighter NPC perspective in these discussions. I feel like my GM would probably be more qualified to comment than me. I could say that unless you bent over backwards, fighters made awful high level BBEGs in 3.0 and 3.5 no matter what their CR claimed, but I couldn't say much about it in Pathfinder (other than commenting on running a dominated or controlled PC fighter against the party, which has happened more than once).
Just from observing the things my current GM has done with fighter bosses and wizard bosses, I'd be inclined to conclude that fighter levels are not worth their weight in BBEG challenge in the same way that wizard levels are, but while there are plenty of spellcasters, the sample size of fighter NPC bosses we've encountered recently is only 1 as far as I am aware. Which makes it a poor guide.
(that said, that one human fighter boss was given 20th level and CR+4 worth of demonic graft/template augmentation (or something along those lines, I don't know what exactly was done; all Kain told us afterwards was CR +4 worth of augmentation) plus artifact level gear in order to stand up to our 15th level party, while the same GM has been able to provide extended, challenging battles using spellcasting bosses of equal or lower level to the party)
This is just a player's rather limited perspective on what was going on behind the screen though, mostly coming from IM discussions about the fight afterwards.
EDIT: Hang on, I remembered another fighter boss, a big heavy armor melee type that we fought in the first fight of our most recent chapter. Like the later caster bosses, he was a couple levels lower than us, but unlike them, the party sorcerer killed him in one turn.
Imo Fighters cannot take advantage of their Armor Training because of the point buy system, at most a fighter is gonna have either a 14 or a 15 DEX to start with (unless he is making a DEX build) and because he has to focus on STR for DPR, which is his job, he can never really capitalize on his class ability which is actually really good.
Weapon Training is what it is, but it's not that great of an ability. Most fighters will stick with the same weapon that they picked for weapon focus and thus that focus group will be what they pick first and for the most part weapon training will never be brought up again.
That makes two class abilities that are borderline useless due to the system.
Bravery boosts the fighter's worst save against fear effects. Fear effects, and not just a boost to all Will saves is another really weak class feature imo.
The bonus feats and ability to retrain them is really the only class feature that can be used often by the fighter, and it makes them truly versatile when it comes to build options. But all of the other stuff falls short on utility which is what makes the fighter a weak class imo.
The problem isn't so much with the class but with the game system as a whole specifically when it comes to how to incorporate armor training and weapon training.
3.5 had the option of having different stat boosting items in different slots, so your fighter could have a belt of CON, gloves of STR, and bracers of DEX, all for the same price, now, wanting to raise multiple stats costs less than it does in pathfinder.
Mithral full plate has a max dex bonus of +3 and an armor check penalty of -3
A for a max level fighter mithral full plate has a max dex bonus of +7 and an armor check penalty of 0
A fighter with 14 dex should have a belt of physical perfection by then leading to a dex of 20 for a +5 bonus. So she is only "wasting" +2 max dex mod. (and with enough wishes she is wasting 0)
Now consider the fact that you have no guarantee of ever getting +5 mithral fullplate. The AP or the loot table could just be dropping +5 not mithral heavy armor.