"Sift" worth taking?


Advice

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I'm trying to pick spells known for my first level detective bard.

I really want "dancing lights" and "ghost sound", and "detect magic" is probably necessary from a role play perspective (he's a sneaky skillmonkey dude... he'd want to be able to detect magic items...)

Of those remaining I am torn between:

"Sift" - examine an area from 30' away
"Mage hand" - pick up stuff at a distance
"Open/close" - open or close things at a distance
"prestidigitation" - lots of uses
"spark" - Just really like this cantrip

So, any advice? The idea behind "dancing lights" and "ghost sound" is to be able to create distractions and mislead guards or pursuers. Plus "dancing lights" works well as a "light" substitute. Seems really handy for a scout type PC.

Any suggestions appreciated.


I like it. It makes the classic "looking through a keyhole" a bit more interesting. It also works wonders for examining a room from stealth which can be surprisingly useful.


SIFT IS AMAZING. A buddy of mine playing in our campaign ran the rogue of our party and used sift practically every other round, when you jack your perception through the roof the penalty doesn't matter. You can safely search for traps from 30' away. BOOSH perfect 0 level spell. Also presto is really really good, whats your race?


Char is a halfling.

What the heck is "presto?"


Maybe presto is short for prestidigitation?


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Presto is short for presidigitation, a fantastic spell but you can't see in the dark so dancing lights seems alright, i would prefer light over dancing lights just for the ability to hide it but thats your call


sift = scanning robot. ^___^


I could replace "dancing lights" with "light". I see them as roughly equivalent spells. Dancing lights seems a bit more suited for creating the illusion of folks moving around in the dark.

Yeah, I like prestidigitation too, but I can only pick four...

Man it sucks that bards don't get "guidance"...


Plenty of traits can give you 0 level spells to get guidance


Well, think of it like so ... your dancing lights bop/move into the room, being rather spherical in shape shedding different colors of light. You cast sift and matching colored beams emanate from your dancing lights acting out the sift's effects.


On my bard I was a race with dark sight so I had no need for light. That any pretty much every caster will have light and it is easy to take care of in mundane ways.


Magical Talent can let you cast "Presto" :) once per day. It lasts for an hour so a single cast per day might be enough.

Two-World Magic lets you put, say, Guidance on your spell list, although you still need to choose it as a known spell.


We have to take a campaign trait and one other trait. I currently have the campaign trait giving a +2 initiative bonus and "focused mind" for the non-campaign trait. I can only pick traits from the CRB, Ultimate Magic or Advanced Players' Guide.

Sczarni

Two-World Magic
You have bridged the gap between the natural magic of the Mwangi peoples and the refined magic of the Chelish colonists.

Benefit: Select one 0-level spell from a class spell list other than your own. This spell is a 0-level spell on your class spell list (or a 1st-level spell if your class doesn't have 0-level spells). For example, if you are a druid, you could select mage hand and thereafter prepare it as a 0-level druid spell; if you are a sorcerer, you could select know direction as a 0-level sorcerer spell known.

Poof! Guidance!

Gnome is a great race for Bard, and you get SLAs for Cha, and the option for Darkvision, eliminating the need for light spells, and grants some of the handy spells you would like as SLAs...


I don't see what the spell actually does. It seems to assume that the old search rules are in effect. Anyone can look for for a trap from 30 feet away with a mere -3 to the check instead of the -5 imposed by the spell.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I don't see what the spell actually does. It seems to assume that the old search rules are in effect. Anyone can look for for a trap from 30 feet away with a mere -3 to the check instead of the -5 imposed by the spell.

BNW hit the nail on the head as to why this spell is worthless. It's playing by the old rules, which no longer apply. There used to be a restriction in 3.5 that you had to be within 10 feet of the area you wanted to search. That is no longer the case.


LOL, well, that makes things easier...


i think the benefit is that you dont have to be in the room. ie through a keyhole, or you can just see into the corner of the room from where you are, and at higher levels your range increases.


I had thought that if you could see the center, you could examine a full 10' cube, meaning you could use it to search rooms for secret doors or stuff around corners. I guess not.

Grand Lodge

It lets you hit an entire 10x10x10 cube at close detail as a standard action. Its actually faster to use it over anything else.


Espy Kismet wrote:

It lets you hit an entire 10x10x10 cube at close detail as a standard action. Its actually faster to use it over anything else.

Can you show me how large of an area you can search with a move action?


dancing lights can be more than just orbs, can make 1 humanoid shape, and can dismiss dancing lights, so hiding it isn't a problem. I imagine sift would let you look around corners for those pesky guards, but i admit, i am really fond of presto.


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Note that the penalty sift imposes is greater than the maximum range penalty it can negate. I'd skip it. Especially if you're considering giving prestidigitation and mage hand a pass in favor of it.

Mage hand translates to "deliver loop of rope with perfect accuracy with a minimum of noise." Prestidigitation can render poisons tasteless, change the color of objects, warm your coffee, cool your beer, clean your clothes, and make your trail rations not taste like trail rations. Anyone who can take it and doesn't and isn't under some sort of self-mortification vow is acting out of character.

Grand Lodge

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Espy Kismet wrote:

It lets you hit an entire 10x10x10 cube at close detail as a standard action. Its actually faster to use it over anything else.

Can you show me how large of an area you can search with a move action?

As large as the DM allows you to, and honestly getting the ability to see in fine detail, and with touch, I'd say about one 5x5 surface if that. Though when pressured you may not even be a five foot square. This quite clearly states you get a standard action to look at that cube, in close detail.. Now exactly what that means can be left into interpretation.

I mean.. how much searching can you do with it. Well.. You come up to a book shelf.. sift. You just just searched all the books for fine detail. In otherwords, you could possibly argue as a standard action you can read every single book in a 10x10x10 cube as a standard action.

this also translates touch, not just site. No matter how how your perception is, you can't ever figure out how something feels from a distance. This spell lets you know of the door knob is hot, from 30 feet away. You just rubbed your hands all over everything, without rubbing your hands all over everything. Sure.. it won't let you do it creatures.. Though.. if you come up to a treasure chest.. or some strange objects.. statues.. etc. Sift. If you 'see' them from the sift then its just a normal object and not a creature. If they suddenly disappear, then they are a creature.

It may also be possible to use Sift to give a 'pat down' to someone, provided they and all their equipment doesn't just disappear from the spells 'sight'. You could do four people at a time and they might ever be aware you just patted them down to look for weapons and secret items.

The last two effects depend on your GM more. So if you get the GM that says you cant' detect a creature.. you can use it to figure out when objects are really creatures. Or if he says they don't disappear if you already know they are there, you can get the pat downs.

Just remember, you are not just getting sight. You are also getting touch.. at a distance.

That being said however, for the op's question..

Dancing lights - Biggest advantage of this spell, is you don't hold the light source. With my kitsune sniper, I'd often cast it around enemies at night, lighting them up from 100+ feet away.. Holding your light source makes you an easier target, not holding it, makes you less of one.

Mage Hand - this is kinda a staple spell to me if you can get it. But honestly.. a 900gp piece of jewelery covers it too. Being able to interact with things without having to touch them is a plus.

Presto - Now this spell.. There is a lot to be done with this one. Snap the fingers and poof, you're in different colored clothing. You're in clean clothing.. great after getting all those blood stains and the like.

Mending - something that lots of people miss.. This is a great spell if you're doing a more political intreeg type campaign. You can open up letters, read them, then mend the envelope shut. Your clothing is never in disrepair, nothing.

Spark - more of a fun spell, especially if you're character is a pipe smoker.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Espy Kismet wrote:

It lets you hit an entire 10x10x10 cube at close detail as a standard action. Its actually faster to use it over anything else.

Can you show me how large of an area you can search with a move action?

It's a fair point. Sift lets you search for things that might require touch also, that's likely circumstantial though.

Edit: One good use I can see for it is searching bodies or other objects you wouldn't be able to search without interacting with them in some ways. Sort of a nice way to skip all those traps that get triggered when you move into an area.


Besides, 1k ioun stone gets you any cantrip you like, not restricted by class. you can get Guidance as a bard, it's treated as a spell known in the item description.

Orange something... i'll look it up in a bit.

I use 2 of them for my PFS Witch to get acid splash and disrupt undead.

EDIT: There it is,

Orange Prism(Cracked):
Cracked: Wearer adds one cantrip or orison (determined when the stone is created) to his list of spells known or spells prepared. Price: 1,000 gp.

Silver Crusade

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I'm trying to pick spells known for my first level detective bard.

I really want "dancing lights" and "ghost sound", and "detect magic" is probably necessary from a role play perspective (he's a sneaky skillmonkey dude... he'd want to be able to detect magic items...)

Of those remaining I am torn between:

"Sift" - examine an area from 30' away
"Mage hand" - pick up stuff at a distance
"Open/close" - open or close things at a distance
"prestidigitation" - lots of uses
"spark" - Just really like this cantrip

So, any advice? The idea behind "dancing lights" and "ghost sound" is to be able to create distractions and mislead guards or pursuers. Plus "dancing lights" works well as a "light" substitute. Seems really handy for a scout type PC.

Any suggestions appreciated.

No love for Message? Especially for a scout character?


Searching one 5-foot square for a trap is a move action. A 10x10x10 cube has 24 5-foot squares (4 on each side of 6 sides), sift searches with a standard action what would otherwise require 12 full rounds' worth of Perception checks to check for traps.


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Turin the Mad wrote:
Searching one 5-foot square for a trap is a move action. A 10x10x10 cube has 24 5-foot squares (4 on each side of 6 sides), sift searches with a standard action what would otherwise require 12 full rounds' worth of Perception checks to check for traps.

There is absolutely nothing in the rules of either traps or Perception that support your assertion. Actively using Perception is a Move Action. There is no mention of how much area you perceive with that action. The DC simply increases by 1 for every 10 feet between you and the stimulus.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I had a wizard who would use Sift to read sealed letters without having to open them and break the seal. I found it to be most useful.


I recently used sift to search a shallow pool of dirty water without having to get in. Avoiding any traps or monster encounters that may have resulted.


Brotato wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Searching one 5-foot square for a trap is a move action. A 10x10x10 cube has 24 5-foot squares (4 on each side of 6 sides), sift searches with a standard action what would otherwise require 12 full rounds' worth of Perception checks to check for traps.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules of either traps or Perception that support your assertion. Actively using Perception is a Move Action. There is no mention of how much area you perceive with that action. The DC simply increases by 1 for every 10 feet between you and the stimulus.
PRD wrote:
Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.

How is a trap an observable stimulus until after it activates?

Excepting an open pit, which should not be affected by a Disable Device check as a hole in the ground cannot be disabled, all other traps are by definition hidden.


Had a thread on this a while back.

Nobody managed to convince me that it did anything at all, rules-wise.

Obviously all it takes is a sane GM to give you some kind of benefit, but you definitely want to discuss this one with your GM before taking it.


RD, explain to me how "sift" allows you to read sealed letters.

Since the duration is "instantaneous" it appears to me that it does, in fact, allow you to search a 10x10x10 cube as if you had carefully examined and touched every square inch of every exposed surface.

Except creatures. It specifically says it does not reveal creatures.


Turin the Mad wrote:
Brotato wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Searching one 5-foot square for a trap is a move action. A 10x10x10 cube has 24 5-foot squares (4 on each side of 6 sides), sift searches with a standard action what would otherwise require 12 full rounds' worth of Perception checks to check for traps.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules of either traps or Perception that support your assertion. Actively using Perception is a Move Action. There is no mention of how much area you perceive with that action. The DC simply increases by 1 for every 10 feet between you and the stimulus.
PRD wrote:
Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.

How is a trap an observable stimulus until after it activates?

Excepting an open pit, which should not be affected by a Disable Device check as a hole in the ground cannot be disabled, all other traps are by definition hidden.

How is the trigger mechanism for a trap NOT an observable stimulus? If you were correct, then Sift would STILL do nothing, as it does nothing that a Perception check itself can not do.


Brotato wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Brotato wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
Searching one 5-foot square for a trap is a move action. A 10x10x10 cube has 24 5-foot squares (4 on each side of 6 sides), sift searches with a standard action what would otherwise require 12 full rounds' worth of Perception checks to check for traps.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules of either traps or Perception that support your assertion. Actively using Perception is a Move Action. There is no mention of how much area you perceive with that action. The DC simply increases by 1 for every 10 feet between you and the stimulus.
PRD wrote:
Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.

How is a trap an observable stimulus until after it activates?

Excepting an open pit, which should not be affected by a Disable Device check as a hole in the ground cannot be disabled, all other traps are by definition hidden.

How is the trigger mechanism for a trap NOT an observable stimulus? If you were correct, then Sift would STILL do nothing, as it does nothing that a Perception check itself can not do.

You mean the costly and expensive deliberately hidden pressure plates, magically concealed triggers that are almost always more difficult to perceive than a bow string being drawn back, those kinds of things? Would you argue that a hidden panel or a secret door is an observable stimulus? If so, then why is there a rogue talent that specifically permits reactive Perception checks for traps?

sift is a massive package of intentional Perception checks over 24 5-foot squares all at once.


And that difficulty is established in the higher Perception DC.

You're digging yourself into a hole here. Either you can use Perception to find traps or you can't. If you can't Sift doesn't let you find them either, because Sift only lets you use Perception, at range for a -5 to the DC, something you can already do by the very rules of Perception, applying distance penalties as appropriate.

Trapspotter means nothing in this context, as we're not talking about reactive Perception, we're talking about an Active check, requiring a Move Action.


If you are human, you could take the trifler trait. It gives you prestidigitation 3 times a day as a SLA (which is like a silent and still spell, so that means you can stealthily use it.) That would mean 3 hours per day, which might be more than enough for all your basic uses, and occasionally really sneaky ones.

It is one of my favorite traits since any class could end up using it no matter their scores. Even wizards, who do not have to struggle with spells known, might enjoy it due to its status as an SLA and the fact it saves on a cantrip slot. The adopted trait makes it available to everyone willing to include it in their backstory. And really, having that much use of it seems natural in a world of magic. Prestidigitation seems to be convenient enough to be like the knowledge of how to work a microwave is for us.


Can only take traits in the carrion crown campaign trait list or traits in CRB, APG and UM. Which I think means only APG since I don't think the CRB or UM have any traits.


Brotato wrote:

And that difficulty is established in the higher Perception DC.

You're digging yourself into a hole here. Either you can use Perception to find traps or you can't. If you can't Sift doesn't let you find them either, because Sift only lets you use Perception, at range for a -5 to the DC, something you can already do by the very rules of Perception, applying distance penalties as appropriate.

Trapspotter means nothing in this context, as we're not talking about reactive Perception, we're talking about an Active check, requiring a Move Action.

The higher DC from the sift spell? Sure, that's built in.

What I'm arguing against is that you normally don't get a reactive Perception check for traps - thus the existence of the trapspotter rogue talent. You do get a intentional check via Perception regardless via move actions and via sift.


No, I was referring the higher DC of a trap versus hearing a bowstring being pulled back. The higher DC is representative of the fact that the stimulus is harder to notice. But the stimulus is still there.

I never argued you get a reactive perception check for traps without Trapspotter. All I said was Sift was an outdated spell because the rules for an active Perception check all ready cover what Sift was designed to do. I can spend a move action to actively Perceive down an entire hallway and make a check, applying a -1 penalty for every 10 feet I am from a stimulus, be it trap trigger, secret door, whatever.

The combination of Search, Listen, and Spot into Perception made for some very fuzzy logic. I liked Sift when I first saw it, but I wasn't aware of the removal of the within 10 ft limitation at the time. The RAW is clear, however, and the RAW invalidates Sift as a useful spell with all but very minor situations, one of which Dennis Baker mentioned (Sifting through a bunch of bodies all at once).


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You try reading a book without opening it, a letter in an envelope without unwrapping it, or a page at the bottom of a stack of papers without physically shuffling through it. That's what this spell is used for.

This spell has found plenty of use in our games.

I've used this spell to discreetly read documents in a pile without moving them or even being able to find all parts of them. I've also used it to read letters within sealed envelopes while they were held by another person. I've searched enemies for concealed weapons and other items whilst keeping my distance. It can also be used to find certain traps while keeping one's distance.

The sight limitation listed in the spell doesn't apply here as the book, the pile of papers, and the letter are all within my line of sight. They are not around a corner or in another room. I absolutely CAN see the area I am searching.

The spell compares your Perception result (-5) against the DC to find "any hidden features, such as secret doors, traps, or hidden treasure."

By some peoples' interpretation, the spell would be completely useless as the very definition of hidden means you cannot perceive the thing that is hidden. If you CAN perceive the thing you are searching for, than you wouldn't need this spell to begin with.

My interpretation is the only one that makes logical sense within the RAW.


That's a rather bold statement, and an untrue one as well, RD. The interpretation that the spell is another of the unfortunate consequences of having multiple designers working on multiple parts of a book at once without a complete understanding of the core rules is just as valid a RAW interpretation, as we have plenty of other examples of such (the most notorious being Prone Shooter).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's an interpretation, Brotato, and just as valid an interpretation as any other I've seen proposed. The difference, is that mine makes sense in that the spell is somewhat useful.


I would consider Detect Magic, Mage Hand and Sift to be the best investigation spells for a bard. Detect magic you need for obvious reasons. Sift is important because it allows you to examine things at range. This is useful not only for checking for traps without being in the area, but also when you cannot reach the area you want to search. Being able to do so from hiding is another big plus. Mage Hand allows you to manipulate what sift has found. The two together pretty makes it almost like you have a reach of short instead of 0 for noncombat purpose.

Next up on my list would be ghost sound, read magic is also too useful to pass up. If you are a race without darkvision then light or dancing light is probably next. If you have darkvision you may want to look at message.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Sift is important because it allows you to examine things at range. This is useful not only for checking for traps without being in the area, but also when you cannot reach the area you want to search.

Perception all ready allows you to do everything you used as a "pro" for Sift. I feel like a broken record here, but honestly, check the Perception rules in PF. This isn't 3.5. You don't have to be close to things to notice them anymore. A rogue can sit outside a room and use and active Perception on the entire room and notice any trap trigger or secret door in the room, modified by distance. He doesn't need a Bard to cast a spell that only searches a 10 ft cube and imposes a worse penalty than the distance would have otherwise.


I think we're all in agreement that sift should do something cool but not overpowered.

Some of us feel that it doesn't actually mean anything mechanically right now. I'd love a good ruling on what exactly it should do.


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We can start a FAQ request thread, but we might as well start figuring out what the actual questions are here.

  • Can Sift look around corners?
  • Can it look inside closed boxes and read closed books?
  • Can Sift look inside locked boxes or sealed papers?
  • Can it be cast through holes smaller than a square foot?
  • Will it reveal all traps that would have been triggered by an actual tactile examination of the area?


Brotato wrote:
Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Sift is important because it allows you to examine things at range. This is useful not only for checking for traps without being in the area, but also when you cannot reach the area you want to search.
Perception all ready allows you to do everything you used as a "pro" for Sift. I feel like a broken record here, but honestly, check the Perception rules in PF. This isn't 3.5. You don't have to be close to things to notice them anymore. A rogue can sit outside a room and use and active Perception on the entire room and notice any trap trigger or secret door in the room, modified by distance. He doesn't need a Bard to cast a spell that only searches a 10 ft cube and imposes a worse penalty than the distance would have otherwise.

Does perception allow you to search under something from range? Can you use your sense of touch at range? I think the answer to both questions is no, so there are things that sift can do that perception alone can't. I don't know any GM that would allow me to see if a door knob 55 feet away was warm to the touch just by looking at it. Same thing if a patch of wall was smoother than the rest.

With sift I can find out what is hidden in the pile of rags from close distance. I do not need to move the rags. I am taking about something completely buried under the rags so has total concealment.

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