Mysterious Stranger |
We can start a FAQ request thread, but we might as well start figuring out what the actual questions are here.
- Can Sift look around corners?
- Can it look inside closed boxes and read closed books?
- Can Sift look inside locked boxes or sealed papers?
- Can it be cast through holes smaller than a square foot?
- Will it reveal all traps that would have been triggered by an actual tactile examination of the area?
Sift specifically says that it only detects things that can be found with sight or touch. This means you can feel objects at range. I can feel if there is a wall behind the current or if it is open space. I can also feel the shape of the object so covered so I have a chance to figure out what it is. This is the real value of sift. Being able to use sight at range no big deal, using touch at range is a different story.
IejirIsk |
School divination; Level bard 0, inquisitor 0
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range 30 ft.
Area one 10-ft. cube
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
You examine an area at range as if you were searching for fine details with the Perception skill. Make a Perception check with a -5 penalty, modified as normal for conditions. No penalty is applied for distance. Apply the result against the DC for any hidden features, such as secret doors, traps, or hidden treasure. You must be able to see the area you are attempting to search, and you only find details that can be perceived with sight or touch. Sift detects only objects and features, not actual creatures.
So, if I am understanding correctly... you take a -5, instead of a -3 for no real benefit other than possibly not the +5 DC for being distracted, and without actually touching anything, setting off a trap...? as a std, instead of move...
wow...
maybe make it range/level or area/level? perhaps a version that offers sight and LOS so you can investigate around corners?
Evil Lincoln |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Arguably, you could cast it on one side of a wall and learn what's on the other side.
Not if you're abiding by the line of effect rules, which eliminate most of the funky-cool uses of the spell that have been mentioned in this thread (casting through a keyhole and such).
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
Adamantine Dragon |
RD, with all due respect, the fact that you have interpreted "sift" to mean that you can read sealed letters is hardly any credible argument that it actually does so. You look for ridiculous exploits all the time and assert that they are RAW.
I sure as heck don't see how you interpret "sift" to allow you to read the contents of a library from 30 feet away as a standard action. In fact my response to this assertion as a GM would be: "pffffttttthhhhhrrrtttt!!! Rigghhhhhttt. In your dreams dude."
Still, even if it only allows you to scan the visible surfaces as if you examined them carefully and touched them (which is how I interpret the spell) that's still worth considering just because doing that without sift would be impossible at range and could take several minutes of game time following the normal perception rules.
I think it should be FAQ'd too. I hit the FAQ button on the question summary.
The main thing I want to know from the devs is if the 10x10x10 foot cube is searchable if only the center of the cube is in the "line of sight" or "line of effect". If you have to be able to see the full 10x10x10 cube then I couldn't peek around corners, but if I only have to see the center, I could. Within a limited range, and revealing no creatures of course.
VRMH |
VRMH wrote:Arguably, you could cast it on one side of a wall and learn what's on the other side.Not if you're abiding by the line of effect rules, which eliminate most of the funky-cool uses of the spell that have been mentioned in this thread (casting through a keyhole and such).
But that only applies to the line from the caster to the point where the spell fires, right? It's not a burst, so anything within the 10' cube should be "siftable".
Evil Lincoln |
Evil Lincoln wrote:But that only applies to the line from the caster to the point where the spell fires, right? It's not a burst, so anything within the 10' cube should be "siftable".VRMH wrote:Arguably, you could cast it on one side of a wall and learn what's on the other side.Not if you're abiding by the line of effect rules, which eliminate most of the funky-cool uses of the spell that have been mentioned in this thread (casting through a keyhole and such).
Through a 1 foot hole, yes.
Through a keyhole no.
Unless someone wants to explain it to me otherwise.
Starbuck_II |
VRMH wrote:Evil Lincoln wrote:But that only applies to the line from the caster to the point where the spell fires, right? It's not a burst, so anything within the 10' cube should be "siftable".VRMH wrote:Arguably, you could cast it on one side of a wall and learn what's on the other side.Not if you're abiding by the line of effect rules, which eliminate most of the funky-cool uses of the spell that have been mentioned in this thread (casting through a keyhole and such).Through a 1 foot hole, yes.
Through a keyhole no.
Unless someone wants to explain it to me otherwise.
Wait, but Fireball's bead can be sent through a keyhole so line of effect isn't set sometimes.
BigNorseWolf |
Wait, but Fireball's bead can be sent through a keyhole so line of effect isn't set sometimes.
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
For fireball
If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
A keyhole is a LOT smaller than an arrow slit.
Alchemy Studios |
Where is Sift?
My gut instinct tells me that you can't read sealed envelopes or closed books etc with it. Because usualy spells like this has lighting condition are normal. So you can't read it a closed book or sealed envelope anymore than you can read in the dark.
Does that mean inside of things, lighting conditions change? Like if I was to get a big paper sack, put it on me.. then I would have lowered lighting conditions inside the sack?
Ravingdork |
Good ol' JJ weighs in. ;D
Ravingdork wrote:I've used the spell SIFT to discreetly read documents in a pile without moving them or even being able to find all parts of them. I've also used it to read letters within sealed envelopes while they were held by another person. I've searched enemies for concealed weapons and other items whilst keeping my distance. It can also be used to find certain traps while keeping one's distance.
I feel that the sight limitation listed in the spell doesn't apply to these tasks as the book, the pile of papers, and the letter are all within my line of sight. They are not around a corner or in another room. I absolutely CAN see the area I am searching.
The spell compares your Perception result (-5) against the DC to find "any hidden features, such as secret doors, traps, or hidden treasure."
But many people on these forums seem to think that you not only can't do what I describe, but are of the belief that the SIFT spell as written is completely useless since the Perception rules allow you to search an area from similar distances with only a -3 penalty (as opposes to the -5 penalty given by SIFT).
I disagree with these people as the very definition of hidden means you cannot perceive the thing that is hidden. If you CAN perceive the thing you are searching for, than you wouldn't need this spell to begin with.
I was hoping you could shed some insight into how the SIFT spell is meant to be used, maybe even including some examples of things that work and don't work with the spell.
Sounds like you've done a lot more thinking on the subject than I have.
Personally, I kinda wish the spell had never been invented—not because it is or isn't useful, but because I'm not a fan of cantrip creep.
Adamantine Dragon |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Good ol' JJ weighs in. ;D
James Jacobs wrote:Ravingdork wrote:I've used the spell SIFT to discreetly read documents in a pile without moving them or even being able to find all parts of them. I've also used it to read letters within sealed envelopes while they were held by another person. I've searched enemies for concealed weapons and other items whilst keeping my distance. It can also be used to find certain traps while keeping one's distance.
I feel that the sight limitation listed in the spell doesn't apply to these tasks as the book, the pile of papers, and the letter are all within my line of sight. They are not around a corner or in another room. I absolutely CAN see the area I am searching.
The spell compares your Perception result (-5) against the DC to find "any hidden features, such as secret doors, traps, or hidden treasure."
But many people on these forums seem to think that you not only can't do what I describe, but are of the belief that the SIFT spell as written is completely useless since the Perception rules allow you to search an area from similar distances with only a -3 penalty (as opposes to the -5 penalty given by SIFT).
I disagree with these people as the very definition of hidden means you cannot perceive the thing that is hidden. If you CAN perceive the thing you are searching for, than you wouldn't need this spell to begin with.
I was hoping you could shed some insight into how the SIFT spell is meant to be used, maybe even including some examples of things that work and don't work with the spell.
Sounds like you've done a lot more thinking on the subject than I have.
Personally, I kinda wish the spell had never been invented—not because it is or isn't useful, but because I'm not a fan of cantrip creep.
If by "weighs in" you mean "punts".
Adamantine Dragon |
Also RD you presented this to JJ in what amounts to comparing the most ridiculously overpowered interpretation vs "it's useless".
Most of us are not just "somewhere in between" we are way, way, way to the "useless" side of your interpretation.
So you basically said "JJ, does sift have awesome cosmic powers or is it junk?"
Perhaps if you had asked him "JJ, what is the official ruling on what you can and cannot do with 'sift'?" he might not have read that and thought "Geebuzinny Crickers! What the hell is that all about?"
Ravingdork |
Also RD you presented this to JJ in what amounts to comparing the most ridiculously overpowered interpretation vs "it's useless".
Most of us are not just "somewhere in between" we are way, way, way to the "useless" side of your interpretation.
So you basically said "JJ, does sift have awesome cosmic powers or is it junk?"
Perhaps if you had asked him "JJ, what is the official ruling on what you can and cannot do with 'sift'?" he might not have read that and thought "Geebuzinny Crickers! What the hell is that all about?"
Well if I don't approach the developers on the matter, who will? I didn't exactly see anyone else clamoring for an answer. Everyone wants to just sit in this thread, bicker about interpretation, and click buttons all day.
At least I'm bring proactive.
Oh, and *click*
;D
Sesharan |
I am a big fan of Sift, but that's mostly because I use it on my Arcane Archer, who imbues it onto his arrows, turning the 30ft range into a range of roughly half a mile (2400ft). Also, I use it most times when I'm searching any area that I want to be sure I've thoroughly checked out. My perception is high enough that the -5 is an easy exchange for such a complete examination. With Abundant Ammunition and Sift, I can search entire forests or castles without ever entering them.
Adamantine Dragon |
I am a big fan of Sift, but that's mostly because I use it on my Arcane Archer, who imbues it onto his arrows, turning the 30ft range into a range of roughly half a mile (2400ft). Also, I use it most times when I'm searching any area that I want to be sure I've thoroughly checked out. My perception is high enough that the -5 is an easy exchange for such a complete examination. With Abundant Ammunition and Sift, I can search entire forests or castles without ever entering them.
Not sure how you're getting past this part of the spell description, but whatever.
You must be able to see the area you are attempting to search
Sesharan |
Sesharan wrote:I am a big fan of Sift, but that's mostly because I use it on my Arcane Archer, who imbues it onto his arrows, turning the 30ft range into a range of roughly half a mile (2400ft). Also, I use it most times when I'm searching any area that I want to be sure I've thoroughly checked out. My perception is high enough that the -5 is an easy exchange for such a complete examination. With Abundant Ammunition and Sift, I can search entire forests or castles without ever entering them.Not sure how you're getting past this part of the spell description, but whatever.
sift wrote:You must be able to see the area you are attempting to search
39 Perception and a spyglass works wonders.
Adamantine Dragon |
Adamantine Dragon wrote:39 Perception and a spyglass works wonders.Sesharan wrote:I am a big fan of Sift, but that's mostly because I use it on my Arcane Archer, who imbues it onto his arrows, turning the 30ft range into a range of roughly half a mile (2400ft). Also, I use it most times when I'm searching any area that I want to be sure I've thoroughly checked out. My perception is high enough that the -5 is an easy exchange for such a complete examination. With Abundant Ammunition and Sift, I can search entire forests or castles without ever entering them.Not sure how you're getting past this part of the spell description, but whatever.
sift wrote:You must be able to see the area you are attempting to search
It can see through trees and walls?
Sesharan |
Sesharan wrote:It can see through trees and walls?
39 Perception and a spyglass works wonders.
No, but it can see in windows and between trees. I exaggerated a bit on being able to search "entire" forests and castles. My point is that Sift can be an extremely useful scouting tool, right up there with Message.
VRMH |
Derail: I'm starting to think Pathfinder needs its own "Sage" equivalent. The "FAQ a forum post" just isn't cutting it.
Rerail: It seems we all agree that Sift is either invaluable, or worthless. Can't we find some sort of compromise in which Sift is what it is: a nice cantrip? Something like: using Sift will reveal anything you could have perceived if you had seen the 10' spell area from any possible angle, without disturbing anything. It would exclude books and small boxes, but would allow peeking around corners.
It would also effectively rewrite the whole spell, but that seems inevitable at this point.
Adamantine Dragon |
Derail: I'm starting to think Pathfinder needs its own "Sage" equivalent. The "FAQ a forum post" just isn't cutting it.
Rerail: It seems we all agree that Sift is either invaluable, or worthless. Can't we find some sort of compromise in which Sift is what it is: a nice cantrip? Something like: using Sift will reveal anything you could have perceived if you had seen the 10' spell area from any possible angle, without disturbing anything. It would exclude books and small boxes, but would allow peeking around corners.
It would also effectively rewrite the whole spell, but that seems inevitable at this point.
That's pretty close to how I interpret it already.