if you've lost your Dex to AC, or are flat footed, do you get a reflex saving throw?


Rules Questions


It seems like you wouldn't, but I haven't seen a rule saying so.


a reflex save is an abstract thing like curling into a small ball with your cloak around you during a fireball. It has nothing to do with your dex to ac, since wrapping yourself in your cloak does nothing to aid your ac, as you'll find out when you get stabbed in the cloak :)


Yes, you still get Reflex saves in these conditions.


Yes you do. There's purposefully no rule stating otherwise. Saving throws always have something to do with luck.


Okay, thanks for the clarification. :)


I forget, do you auto fail a save when unconscious?

Shadow Lodge

All spells are treated as "harmless" so if you are uncious you autofail the save unless you have a specific ability to overide it


Thanks :)


Thats not true. The only spells that are treated as harmless are those that specifically say they are harmless. Even if unconscious, you still get a reflex save against a fireball.

I believe you are confusing "harmless" with "willing". When unconscious, you are treated as willing for spells such as teleport or any other spell that requires a willing target.


Jeraa wrote:

Thats not true. The only spells that are treated as harmless are those that specifically say they are harmless. Even if unconscious, you still get a reflex save against a fireball.

I believe you are confusing "harmless" with "willing". When unconscious, you are treated as willing for spells such as teleport or any other spell that requires a willing target.

The above is true.

However, if unconscious you are also "Helpless"

Quote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

You don't just lose your Dex if unconscious your Dex is treated as if 0 and you get a -5 modifier.


Quote:

However, if unconscious you are also "Helpless"

Quote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent's mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.
You don't just lose your Dex if unconscious your Dex is treated as if 0 and you get a -5 modifier.

Any you'll note that the helpless condition says absolutely nothing about denying a saving throw. If being helpless made you automatically fail reflex saves, it would say so, but it doesn't. Unless something specifically says it removes the ability for you to make a saving throw, you get a saving throw. Its just harder to make a reflex save if you are helpless, as you lose whatever Dexterity bonus you had, and on top of that take a -5 penalty.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You always get a save. As said, there's luck involved. Sometimes the spell just plain "misses" you, or since most reflex saves are for half or partial and not outright negate, you get lucky and the worst of the spell effect does not hit you.


Even a reflex save when being unconscious on the floor? :)


Rickmeister wrote:
Even a reflex save when being unconscious on the floor? :)

Yes

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nearyn wrote:
Rickmeister wrote:
Even a reflex save when being unconscious on the floor? :)
Yes

Of course if you're already in negative points the save might not matter.


Rickmeister wrote:
Even a reflex save when being unconscious on the floor? :)

You can be unconscious, tied to a chair, covered in a flammable liquid, enclosed in a 5 foot by 5 foot room, and you would still be allowed a saving throw against a fireball.


Seems odd that the base chance to make such a reflex save would scale with level, though. I guess higher-level characters have more luck in the bank than low-level characters. I can go along with that to keep the peace at the table, but I don't really buy it. After all, in the case of an unconscious character, and in the absence of special magical or divine protection, isn't that already reflected in the higher hit point total?

This is all from the perspective of a player who loves his PCs but also doesn't mind seeing them die when it makes sense. I get that not every table/group is like that.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Gliz wrote:

Seems odd that the base chance to make such a reflex save would scale with level, though. I guess higher-level characters have more luck in the bank than low-level characters. I can go along with that to keep the peace at the table, but I don't really buy it. After all, in the case of an unconscious character, and in the absence of special magical or divine protection, isn't that already reflected in the higher hit point total?

This is all from the perspective of a player who loves his PCs but also doesn't mind seeing them die when it makes sense. I get that not every table/group is like that.

Saves are like 1/3 talent, 1/3 natural abilities, and 1/3 luck. So even if your talent isn't factoring in (i.e. you're unconcious and couldn't intentionally react), you've still got luck and ability (you roll over in your sleep at exactly the right moment and your instinct to tuck your feet away from the heat is exactly the right thing to do). Or some other combination of factors.


Saves are abstractions. Hit points are abstractions. There are lots of abstractions.


Gliz wrote:

Seems odd that the base chance to make such a reflex save would scale with level, though. I guess higher-level characters have more luck in the bank than low-level characters. I can go along with that to keep the peace at the table, but I don't really buy it. After all, in the case of an unconscious character, and in the absence of special magical or divine protection, isn't that already reflected in the higher hit point total?

This is all from the perspective of a player who loves his PCs but also doesn't mind seeing them die when it makes sense. I get that not every table/group is like that.

Why? We are playing in a world with active deific intervention. What’s to say that that Save which must be incredible isn’t Desna saving her worshiper?

The Exchange

how do evasion and improved evasion work with helplessness?


Quote:
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.


Dosgamer wrote:
Saves are abstractions. Hit points are abstractions. There are lots of abstractions.

This! a thousand times this.

How often do you, for example, enter a barren,featureless stone room vs a barracks, or room at the inn or the storage closet? And how often is every single objects placement and stats (hardness etc) laid out in the room? So what if the fellow who just fell unconscious dropped behind one of these vaguely or descriptively placed objects out of the direct line of the now exploding fireball. The allowance of a save is the abstract representation of this without having to worry about the "real" details of all those factors interacting with each other the exact instant (rather than the abstracted sometime in the round) the fireball detonates.


Ssalarn wrote:
Gliz wrote:

Seems odd that the base chance to make such a reflex save would scale with level, though. I guess higher-level characters have more luck in the bank than low-level characters. I can go along with that to keep the peace at the table, but I don't really buy it. After all, in the case of an unconscious character, and in the absence of special magical or divine protection, isn't that already reflected in the higher hit point total?

This is all from the perspective of a player who loves his PCs but also doesn't mind seeing them die when it makes sense. I get that not every table/group is like that.

Saves are like 1/3 talent, 1/3 natural abilities, and 1/3 luck. So even if your talent isn't factoring in (i.e. you're unconcious and couldn't intentionally react), you've still got luck and ability (you roll over in your sleep at exactly the right moment and your instinct to tuck your feet away from the heat is exactly the right thing to do). Or some other combination of factors.

Is rolling over in my sleep reflective of my natural ability? I'm not really following you. And where'd you get those fractions?


Dosgamer wrote:
Saves are abstractions. Hit points are abstractions. There are lots of abstractions.

Absolutely no argument from me. But I'm not sure if you were addressing me...


DrDeth wrote:
Gliz wrote:

Seems odd that the base chance to make such a reflex save would scale with level, though. I guess higher-level characters have more luck in the bank than low-level characters. I can go along with that to keep the peace at the table, but I don't really buy it. After all, in the case of an unconscious character, and in the absence of special magical or divine protection, isn't that already reflected in the higher hit point total?

This is all from the perspective of a player who loves his PCs but also doesn't mind seeing them die when it makes sense. I get that not every table/group is like that.

Why? We are playing in a world with active deific intervention. What’s to say that that Save which must be incredible isn’t Desna saving her worshiper?

Do you mean to ask why I think it's a bit odd that I'd dodge a lightning bolt better when unconscious at level 8 than when unconscious at level 1? If so, it's because I'm unable to perceive the attack, and I'm unable to move my body in any case.

I have no problem visualizing and/or rationalizing the scenario or dealing with mechanical abstractions per se. It's just that, other things being equal, if I'm in the way of the lightning bolt, I just am. My character level shouldn't change that when I am unconscious and therefore unable to bring to bear all the intangibles that allow higher level characters to better avoid or resist dangers.

And note that I precluded divine protection. If at a hypothetical table it is assumed that the gods intervene to some extent on every saving throw, and are more likely to do so for higher level characters, and every character has an equally powerful/interested god in his corner, despite the fact that they may not be religious and may even show disdain for the gods, well then, folks at that table have a comparatively easier time explaining away the discrepancy between the save bonuses based upon character level that accrue to the two unconscious characters than do the folks at my table. Maybe their way is better. And I'm not trying to be snarky; I can imagine some games running that way, which is fine.


Kayerloth wrote:
Dosgamer wrote:
Saves are abstractions. Hit points are abstractions. There are lots of abstractions.

This! a thousand times this.

How often do you, for example, enter a barren,featureless stone room vs a barracks, or room at the inn or the storage closet? And how often is every single objects placement and stats (hardness etc) laid out in the room? So what if the fellow who just fell unconscious dropped behind one of these vaguely or descriptively placed objects out of the direct line of the now exploding fireball. The allowance of a save is the abstract representation of this without having to worry about the "real" details of all those factors interacting with each other the exact instant (rather than the abstracted sometime in the round) the fireball detonates.

Lots of questions here. Basically, the answer is that it varies from adventure to adventure. I see lots of barren rooms/caverns, and lots of rooms with furniture. If furniture is big enough to provide cover, then it's usually placed quite specifically. But I think I get your point, and I have no particular argument with it.


Gliz,

If you think of reflex as not just your ability to dodge out of the way but also a (secondary) way to resist physical damage then it makes sense that while unconscious you can also resist a lightning bolt.

Now, before you (or someone else) comes along and says that that is what hitpoints are for: Hitpoints are one metric of physical survivability. There are others (such as DR or reflex). Is it unreasonable that some of that metric includes resistance to damage and not just luck/dodge?

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Gliz,

If you think of reflex as not just your ability to dodge out of the way but also a (secondary) way to resist physical damage then it makes sense that while unconscious you can also resist a lightning bolt.

Now, before you (or someone else) comes along and says that that is what hitpoints are for: Hitpoints are one metric of physical survivability. There are others (such as DR or reflex). Is it unreasonable that some of that metric includes resistance to damage and not just luck/dodge?

- Gauss

That's not how I think of reflex saves. Note the following:

According to d20pfsrd.com:

d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Saving Throw Types

The three different kinds of saving throws are Fortitude, Reflex, and Will:

Fortitude

These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health. Apply your Constitution modifier to your Fortitude saving throws.

Reflex

These saves test your ability to dodge area attacks and unexpected situations. Apply your Dexterity modifier to your Reflex saving throws.

Will

These saves reflect your resistance to mental influence as well as many magical effects. Apply your Wisdom modifier to your Will saving throws.


Gliz, I was not commenting on the rules nor on the fluff the rules describe. I was providing a rationale that might explain it. Nor did I state how you personally think of them. I said IF you think of them as....

But, you appeared to have missed the point. Your problem.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Gliz, I was not commenting on the rules nor on the fluff the rules describe. I was providing a rationale that might explain it. Nor did I state how you personally think of them. I said IF you think of them as....

But, you appeared to have missed the point. Your problem.

- Gauss

Wow. Sorry to have offended you. I guess I did miss the point. Not really a problem, though. I'm done here. I wish you (and everybody else) the best in your gaming!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dosgamer wrote:
Saves are abstractions. Hit points are abstractions. There are lots of abstractions.

All of them pointing to the fact that your character is not just some git walking down the street who doesn't matter. He's a major character in a work of fiction.

My favorite example of this principle is Princess Leia. Leia can clip stormtrooper after stormtrooper in the shin with glances from her tiny little laser pistol, and kill every one of them with the one shot. But she takes a solid blaster shot right in the shoulder and just grins and bears it.

You're more important to the story than a mook. You get the hit points. You get the saves. They are abstracts illustrating your importance to the story.

Another example: Every time a bomb goes off in a Die Hard movie, somebody dies. They might die even when they're several stories or rooms away. Unless their name is John McClane. John McClane can survive an exploding roof by tying a firehose to his waist and falling ten stories, to break through a plate glass window in bare feet.


okay, so on a related question... if you still can make the save... shouldn't it be minus your dex though? I mean even your flat footed ac doesn't get dex or dodge bonuses....


Gliz, I was not offended. :) I apologize for the second line since it came off snappish.

- Gauss


Ishpumalibu, Flat-footed is spelled out as losing AC bonuses from Dexterity. It does not list that as applying to Reflex and thus has no bearing on dexterity bonuses applying to Reflex.

However, other conditions (such as Helpless) do specifically affect dexterity across the board. If you lose your dexterity in those cases you do have a penalty to Reflex.

- Gauss


ah i see, didn't really think about that, I was thinking more about situations like grappling etc. but thanks gauss.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

Ishpumalibu wrote:
ah i see, didn't really think about that, I was thinking more about situations like grappling etc. but thanks gauss.

If you've got the grappled condition (which most of the time the both the grappler and graplee do), you take a -4 penalty to Dexterity, which would affect your saving throws.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / if you've lost your Dex to AC, or are flat footed, do you get a reflex saving throw? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.