Hey all.
So currently we have a Neutral/Evil campaign going and the question of getting info out of prisoners has come up.
Now we all decided that we did not want to RP out a torture scene as well. just no.
So anyway we needed rules for it, and we have found that these work fairly well.
Anyway here is what we use.
Torture, or "Ve have vays of makink you talk"
The brutality of torture doesn't really have a place in your typical pathfinder game, if you and your players decide to use it it is best to simply let a few dice rolls decide success or failure, Torture is always an evil act. and the victim must be bound or helpless in some other way.
Each Torture check requires one hour of work and gains no bonus from the "Aid another" rule.
The Torturer makes a Heal, or Profession Torturer check, (May also use intimidate but with a -5 to the check). The victim then makes a will save V.S. the result of that check.
Failure of the Victim's will save indicates that some piece of information was revealed, Success indicates the victim held fast.
In either case the victim takes 1d3 constitution damage from the hour of torture.
If the torturer continues, each hour of torture beyond the first provides a cumulative +1 to their skill check, while still dealing 1d3 con per hour to the victim. Torture checks should be made each hour.
This Constitution damage does NOT heal normally from rest until the victim is out of the torture area.
If any of the constitution damage is healed, all of the bonus to torture checks is reset to zero.
This continues until the victim reveals all his information, the torturer stops, or the victim dies from loss of con.
As an example.
John is a 1st level expert with 1 rank in profession Torture, a +1 from Wis and +3 class skill bonus for a +5 total.
Mike is a enemy spy, with a +2 base will save, +1 from Wis and Iron will (+3) for a +6 total.
He also has an 11 con
Hour 1.
John Rolls a 10+5=14
Mike rolls a 12+6=16
John finds out nothing of value and Mike takes 1d3 (2) con and is at 9.
Hour 2.
John rolls a 14+5+1 (for the second hour)= 20
Mike rolls a 6+6=12
John gets one piece of info and Mike takes 1 more con for a total loss of 3 leaving 8.
This continues until john learns everything or mike dies. John could have mike healed up and do it again the next day... and the next, and the next..........
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So...would including waterboarding mean these are no longer torture rules? ;-)
It's worth noting that torture is not a good way of extracting reliable information - there's a good chance the victim will say whatever they think the torturer wants to hear in order to stop the torture. Also, it's the threat of torture rather than the actual torture that is more likely to break the victim. Torture is also likely to kill the victim.
If you wanted to build a system then you would need to look at modelling breaking the victim's will to resist and determining whether they are telling the truth separately.
I suggest using the torturer's intimidate and the victim's will together.
Intimidate: Success Will: Success = Victim refuses to answer
Intimidate: Fail Will: Success = Victim tells lies
intimidate: Success Will: Fail = Victim tells truth
Intimidate: Fail Will: Fail = Victim tells truth but also embellishes it with falsehoods that they think will please the torturer
The intimidate score would be modified by +2 for circumstance bonus , plus the torturer's skill
The Will score would be modified by half the constitution damage inflicted. I would allow the torturer to specify how many Con points they wish to inflict rather than set it as a points per hour. Additionally, there is a chance the torture could kill the victim. Make a Fort save modified by the full Con damage
The torturer should not know whether they have succeeded or not but a follow up sense motive check could be used to tell the torturer whether they believe the victim or not, or whether the victim is embellishing.
Guys, you make some good points.
This was not written to be a simulation.
This is a fast abstraction of a less the savory tactic that is quick to play out and not too complex.
For us it works, I posted it here as I could not find any rules when I went looking.
Approve of the "sense motive" vs. bluff bit, but think you're missing a step without including the creep factor that magical healing can bring into it. "Your mind will give out far before your body, we can make sure that your body heals from everything we do today so we can revisit it again tomorrow" - Random Cleric of Zon-Kuthon.
Which is to say, should be some impressive modifiers if you're keeping it abstract.
-TimD
I've had a bit of a think since posting and TimD's comment has reinforced that. So here's some revision.
There can be one torture attempt per hour.
The base Will save is CHA based and is DC10
The base Fort save is DC10
Each torture session lasts one hour and subsequent sessions cumulatively increase the Will save DC by 1
The CON modifer against the will save is cumulative of all damage inflicted during the torture sessions whilst the FORT save is based on the current CON score. So magical healing can keep the body alive but the horror of the pain remains. E.g.
Mike suffers 4 CON damage so the Will DC is 12 and the Fort DC is 14 before other adjustments are made. Having survived and resisted he is subjected to another session with 4 CON damage after being healed. This time the Will DC is 15(+1 for second session and two lots of +2 for 4 Con damage sessions) and the Fort DC is 14
I vaguely remember an article on torture rules in a magazine. I just leafed through a Kobold Quarterly, but didn't find anything. I'll have a closer look tomorrow, I think I may have come across it in a free magazine like Wayfinder or Pathways.
Using saves vs skill check is a poor mechanic. Skill checks easily out-pace saves. Even in your example, a level 1 expert can break a guy optimized for resisting torture...
Some thoughts:
I think fort saves should also be allowed. It is a common trope that the hero is just that tough. Also, with the con damage, this makes wearing down the tough guy easier.
The DC should be 5 + 1/2 the torturer's ranks in heal + the torturer's wis modifier. It should start at a base of 5 to balance the stacking penalties.
I like the stacking penalties, since that way, everyone will break eventually. I feel that if the torturer is the one that is healing you, the penalties should not reset. Maybe they would just half?
you could add a feat:
Efficient Torturer
You know how to inflict pain while not leaving permanent injuries
You gain a +1 competence bonus to torture save DCs.
Penalties for torture stack at the rate of 2 per day.
You may choose to reduce the con damage you deal by 1.
Rules for torture (yes it's evil)
Why is pragmatism always considered eeeevil?
I'm just wondering why, in Pathfinder, except for entertainment/Zon-Kuthon service, anyone would bother with torture when a Charm Person and proper questions is so much easier.
If you have Top-Secret, Eyes-Only clearance would you tell your best friend details that would be considered treason and might expose them to danger as well? ... that's the best example I can give for Charm Person - they become your friend, nothing more. Not everyone tells their friends everything.
-TimD
I'm just wondering why, in Pathfinder, except for entertainment/Zon-Kuthon service, anyone would bother with torture when a Charm Person and proper questions is so much easier.If you have Top-Secret, Eyes-Only clearance would you tell your best friend details that would be considered treason and might expose them to danger as well? ... that's the best example I can give for Charm Person - they become your friend, nothing more. Not everyone tells their friends everything.
-TimD
This is what we ran into.
You're saying your group plays an evil campaign and doesn't like going into exacting detail on how their characters brutalize and remove the dignity from another person?
...
Lucky you. Oh the memories of whence my group first started.
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I vaguely remember an article on torture rules in a magazine. I just leafed through a Kobold Quarterly, but didn't find anything. I'll have a closer look tomorrow, I think I may have come across it in a free magazine like Wayfinder or Pathways.
It was definitely in a Kobold Quarterly issue, I can guarantee that. Can't recall the issue number though...
They were fairly high-risk rules too. IIRC, there were three grades of severity, with the highest easily handing out potentially permanent penalties and even death.
You're saying your group plays an evil campaign and doesn't like going into exacting detail on how their characters brutalize and remove the dignity from another person?
...
Lucky you. Oh the memories of whence my group first started.
Lucky him? But, but.. that is half the fun..
You're saying your group plays an evil campaign and doesn't like going into exacting detail on how their characters brutalize and remove the dignity from another person?
...
Lucky you. Oh the memories of whence my group first started.
Heh, yeah it's more of a morally "Grey" Group then straight up evil. Then again we play is a psudo-Eberron campaign so all alignments are more blurry.
And yeah I have some horror stories about people playing evil from when I was younger, I think we all do.