Save vs. Sexism: Interview with Jessica Price


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Petrus222 wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
I don't think you can talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women without talking about privilege.

I would suggest that if you want to have a discussion about make gaming more welcoming to women, and you're having that discussion with a group of men, then you specifically need to avoid bringing up a term that is loaded with baggage and has historically been used to refer to men in a very negative context. If you want to talk about unintentional barriers to entry fine, but using the term privledge is a nonstarter. You can shame some of the younger men into buying your arguement but it'll backfire on you later when they come to realize that you're passive agressively manipulating their emotions and trying to make them feel guilty for things they've neither done nor contemplate.

So with that in mind, try approaching the issue (women being more welcome) not from a "men bad" perspective as you have been (whether you're aware of it or not), and look at it as a marketing question: How do you make this more appealing to a new demographic? What you need to focus on is grabbing market share from the other hobbies and activities out there that women engage in rather than saying your current customers are driving away new ones.

If that means creating modules that are female friendly and marketing them to girls/women then do that. If that means creating modules meant to be ran by fathers for their kids then do that (and that's something I personally would be very interested in.) If that means trying to make gaming more mainstream by advertisements with celebrities then do that... but going after the guys who are having fun playing with a group of buddies where they don't have to self-censor constantly for fear of offending someone? That's just a bad idea.

(I'd write more about specific issues I have with the whole privledge arguement but it's not relevant to the direction the thread needs to go in. For those who are more interested, look up Warren Farrell's Myth of...

Fantastic post Petrus, I agree 100%.

I think if someone wants to fit in with a new group, It's best to not start off attacking and insulting them based on stereotypes like their gender and then wondering why they get defensive about it, and demanding that they accept your premise that they are the problem and need to change. Even if they ARE the problem, that's entirely the wrong way to approach it if you really want progress and change rather than just commiserating.

If a male gamer said "I'd really like to join a group, but sometimes they are mean to me, talk over me, they really creep me out with their words and actions at times, and I literally don't feel safe around them, what can I do to get these people to change so I can enjoy gaming with them?", what do you think the responses would be?

Webstore Gninja Minion

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Removed unnecessarily fighty posts, their replies, and a lot of back and forth sniping. Taking jabs at other posters does nothing to foster a healthy discussion—stop doing it.

Liberty's Edge

Samurai wrote:
I think if someone wants to fit in with a new group, It's best to not start off attacking and insulting them based on stereotypes like their gender and then wondering why they get defensive about it, and demanding that they accept your premise that they are the problem and need to change.

Without intending to, you've made Jess' point very succinctly.

Just read "them" in your quote as being that new someone who wants to join the group, and you have her premise about how to deal with female gamers. It just boils down to being more aware of "them", whoever "they" are.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

DeathQuaker wrote:


I don't know demographically how many Tabletop RPGers are women. It would be interesting to know at least, say, what is the ratio of women to men at, say, GenCon.

Hey, DQ. As always, it's great to see you.

It's been my experience that there are a lot of home groups that are partially / half / mostly women and girls. But by-and-large, women don't attend a lot of conventions to role-play with strangers. Those who do, almost always come as part of a team, either all-female or mixed-sex.

--//--//--

Incidentally, does anybody here have any experience with Green Ronin's Blue Rose RPG setting?


StrangePackage wrote:
Without intending to, you've made Jess' point very succinctly.

And you've missed his entirely.

This problem is a marketing problem and far less of a social/gender issue than many people are making it. (and to the detriment of solving it too.)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
But you can't use the P-Word without six guys jumping up and starting to post compulsively about how GUYS HAVE IT HARD TOO. This is An Internet Thing, and has been for years now. Trying to have these conversations is as close to a literally Sisyphean task as you can have without involving a hill, a boulder and the depths of Hell.

Every once in a blue moon, someone listens. So I keep talking.


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ElPapoFugitivo wrote:
Perhaps, just perhaps, the men on this thread can take a step back from mansplaining what the women are doing wrong while discussing this issue and simply READ and ABSORB what they are saying.

You wanted equality. You have it. That means that I treat any idea the same regardless of the source. I take it, I pick it apart, I beat it with a hammer to see how it holds up- the same way I do with anything else. If it can't survive examination then I'm not going to buy it.

I think there is a good deal of mixing up correlation for causation here. The correlation is gaming. I think a good chunk (but not all) of the causation is the gender ratios. 10 guys in a group have different rules for behavior than 10 girls. 9 Guys and 1 girl are not going to settle on the same rules as 10 girls, or even 5 guys and 5 girls. There's nothing privileged about the majority setting the majority of the tone; its the exact same way ANY group does things.

Quote:
So just hush up and listen.

Nothing is going to be accomplished by telling one side to sit down and shut up.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
DeathQuaker wrote:


I don't know demographically how many Tabletop RPGers are women. It would be interesting to know at least, say, what is the ratio of women to men at, say, GenCon.

Hey, DQ. As always, it's great to see you.

It's been my experience that there are a lot of home groups that are partially / half / mostly women and girls. But by-and-large, women don't attend a lot of conventions to role-play with strangers. Those who do, almost always come as part of a team, either all-female or mixed-sex.

--//--//--

Incidentally, does anybody here have any experience with Green Ronin's Blue Rose RPG setting?

Yeah I was very excited about it and bought it when it first came out for two reasons:

1) I was super interested in a simplified d20 system because 3.5 was so glutted at the point Blue Rose was released.

2) I grew up reading fantasy including the romantic fantasy of Mercedes Lackey, sword fights and romance are such a great fit.

I played a couple of games of it but this was in my late teens and the group I had at the time weren't interested in a more philosophical style of play and were too nervous to play the game as anything other than D&D Lite. That group was two girls (one of whom was my girlfriend at the time, both of whom were straight), a gay man, a straight man and me (straight guy) GMing. So a pretty diverse bunch overall, and good friends for a long time, but still unable to hurdle the social barrier of acting romantically in front of others.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
ElPapoFugitivo wrote:
Perhaps, just perhaps, the men on this thread can take a step back from mansplaining what the women are doing wrong while discussing this issue and simply READ and ABSORB what they are saying.

You wanted equality. You have it. That means that I treat any idea the same regardless of the source. I take it, I pick it apart, I beat it with a hammer to see how it holds up- the same way I do with anything else. If it can't survive examination then I'm not going to buy it.

I think there is a good deal of mixing up correlation for causation here. The correlation is gaming. I think a good chunk (but not all) of the causation is the gender ratios. 10 guys in a group have different rules for behavior than 10 girls. 9 Guys and 1 girl are not going to settle on the same rules as 10 girls, or even 5 guys and 5 girls. There's nothing privileged about the majority setting the majority of the tone; its the exact same way ANY group does things.

Quote:
So just hush up and listen.

Nothing is going to be accomplished by telling one side to sit down and shut up.

They said listen, not shut up.

You changed that yourself.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
I take it, I pick it apart, I beat it with a hammer to see how it holds up- the same way I do with anything else. If it can't survive examination then I'm not going to buy it.

I'm never going grocery shopping with you.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


A lot of white guys hear that term privilege and they just freak the f@&~ out. You can try explaining until you're blue in the face that it's not about them personally, it doesn't mean they're bad people or oppressing anyone or getting a special White Guy refund on their taxes. They process it as an insult -- a very sly and particular sort of insult. And they feel compelled to go all WHAT IS THIS PRIVILEGE and/or I AM NOT PRIVILEGED and/or THE VERY USE OF THIS TERM IS OFFENSIVE.

I have no problem with admitting that I benefit from a certain amount of privilege for being a straight, white male, at least in principle. In practice, however, it gets trickier. Because usually, especially on the internet, when someone starts pointing out my privilege, it's not being used as a tool for enlightenment, but as a weapon to shut me up.

Usually when someone brings up my privilege, they aren't saying "You don't understand what it's like for us, so let me give you some examples..." Instead, they're usually saying "You don't understand what it's like for us, so shut up and get out of this conversation." Of course, I don't see that in this thread*; I appreciate that the posters on this thread have kept the tone leaps and bounds ahead of what you'd find in the comments on a YouTube video, or even a CNN article. But frankly, I'm not surprised that some of the guys are getting defensive, because I, for one, have been throroughly conditioned to expect that when someone says "You don't know what it's like because of your privilege," the next sentence will be them jumping down my throat for daring to disagree with them.

That being said, I'm not sure what else Paizo can do, short of starting a charm school for under-socialized geeks. From what I've seen (which is restricted to Society play), the published content seems fair, with large numbers of female heroes, villains, and NPCs. The only hiccup I see is that all of the divine-powered iconics are female (unless you count Harsk the ranger, and honestly, can you ever be completely sure about dwarves?).

*EDIT:

Quote:
So just hush up and listen.

And there it is. I knew it was too good to last.

Project Manager

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

I want to try again with the question from 200 posts ago: Other than maybemaking the art a bit less in-your-face, what (if anything) could Paizo be doing to make the game more friendly / interesting / accessible to women?

No question, they've already done a lot. ** spoiler omitted **

All that said, this remains a very male dominated hobby. And when I look at the above list, I gotta say that a lot of it reads like not making the game *un*attractive. That is, they've removed a lot of potential stumbling blocks. But what (if anything) could they be doing to get more women and girls interested in the game?

Doug M.

I'd personally like to see us publicize RPG Superstar even more to women's gaming groups, to try and market our Free RPG Day to more girls, and maybe even try a ladies' night PFS event or something similar. (Anecdotally, I'm noticing more and more women in board game stores and events than I did when I first got into board games. I want them to play Pathfinder.) I'm still trying to work up a plan on how to do that to present.

But mostly, while we can make sure that the stories we tell have interesting and diverse characters, both male and female, that women are presented as men's equals, that our setting is friendly to women and men, and that Paizo-supervised events are friendly to everyone, none of that matters if women don't sit down at the table in the first place.

If anyone has any ideas on how to get more women and girls to try out RPGs in the first place, please let me know, and I will happily do what I can to support the idea if I think it's a good one. :-)

Liberty's Edge

Petrus222 wrote:
StrangePackage wrote:
Without intending to, you've made Jess' point very succinctly.

And you've missed his entirely.

This problem is a marketing problem and far less of a social/gender issue than many people are making it. (and to the detriment of solving it too.)

No, I didn't.

A- he didn't really have a point, he just piggybacked on your point

B- His inartful attempt to summarize and buttress your point proved to be a very cogent (to me at least) example of his inability to perceive the other side of the argument, which is illustrative of that dreaded P-word and those who exercise it without even being aware of it. He doesn't want to be aware of some uncomfortable realities, so he limits his own perception to that which is most comfortable for him. This is not a great fault- it's what everyone is mostly hardwired to do.

C- I don't agree with your point. The P-word doesn't have baggage, you assign it your own. You do not speak for every white male, or even every male, when you claim that using that word is a non-starter- to some of us, it is a fact of life of which we make an effort to be aware. Jessica isn't approaching this world from a "men bad" perspective- she is approaching this gaming world as someone who wishes to be a part of it. In attempting to become more a part of this gaming world, she has encountered a phenomenon that is widely understood and demonstrable on virtually every level in the Western World, those who exercise it, and the degree to which they are aware of it as they do. She's trying to bring a new perspective to the gaming world, in the hopes that some will become more aware of it and learn to be more understanding of others.

This gaming world DOES NOT BELONG EXCLUSIVELY TO MEN, nor to women, nor to whites, nor to minorities, nor to hetero-normatives nor homo-deviants or anyone. To suggest that she needs to moderate her behavior in order to be a part of it, as you and Samurai do, is to demonstrate her point about privilege. This isn't' your world, any more than it is hers. It's all our world, and learning to play well with others is the point of this thread. To dismiss her point as an exercise in marketing is to ignore her point entirely, akin to saying "well, just make it pink" and assuming that would be sufficient to create appeal.

Some folks MAY have missed the point entirely. But folks miss a lot of things. It's like those two fish, who were swimming in the river one day, and as they swim upstream they come across an older, wiser fish. "Hey there fellas!" says the older fish. "How's the water today?" And the two younger fish just swim on by, keep going upstream. Eventually, one of them turns to the other and says, "What the hell is water?"

This isn't a matter of virtue or vice, or right and wrong, but simply the ability to be aware of the things which are all around us and permeate the world we live in. The more of us who choose to take pains to be aware of those things, and interpret the world around us by means of more than just the lens of self, the better off we will be.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

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Jessica Price wrote:
[definition of "privilege" as it relates to gender bias in gaming]

I think your explanation of what is meant by "privilege" is conducive to discussion.

Just be aware that you will need to reiterate your entire explanation every time you use the word "privilege" when discussing gender issues with anyone unfamiliar with feminist literature. Feminist academia did little to facilitate dialog outside its own exclusive circle when its luminaries decided that "male privilege" was good shorthand for "the advantages of being male."

Note that the phrase, "the advantages of being male," implies that "advantages" as a whole are not solely awarded to males, and suggests that different groups benefit from different advantages in different circumstances. By contrast, the word "privilege," being of singular construction, implies a monolithic, indivisible thing that only one group can ever hold at a time. And attaching the adjective, "male," to the word implies that this singular privilege is inherently male in all circumstances, whereas the various advantages one can have are situation-specific.

Also note that outside of feminist literature, the word "privilege" has strong connotations of financial well-being through inheritance. Thus, the use of the phrase, "male privilege," can give some listeners the impression that the speaker thinks the Rich White Guy stereotype defines the entire male gender. Many of them read the phrase, "male privilege," as "male wealth," and get offended that the writer is apparently perpetuating the sexist stereotype that all males are inherently wealthy: "Hey, where do I sign up for all this male wealth you keep mentioning?"

I should also add that I disagree with one part of your definition: misogyny has nothing to do with male privilege. Hurtful speech and actions can be perpetrated by anyone, even if they are not in a position of power. The advantages of being male in a male-dominant venue facilitate the ability of misogynistic males to brow-beat others, but the misogyny itself is neither an advantage of being male, nor a function of having an advantage in general. A misogynist doesn't need any sort of power over others to completely ruin a social dynamic; he could simply sit in a corner and shout slurs. That's sufficient to create a hostile environment for everyone else involved. The misogynist's ability to not be removed when being disruptive is his advantage in certain circumstances, not his ability to shout slurs.

Indeed, actively hostile actions and speech are common tactics used by individuals not in positions of power as a means of feeling better about themselves. (I suspect this has something to do with the blatant sexism in the video game industry. Many of the senior programmers currently in the industry grew up in the era before programming was a mainstream profession, and were likely ostracized as outsiders when they were learning their trade. Their need to belittle others probably developed as a means of coping with their own lack of worth in the eyes of their childhood peers. As younger generations of well-adjusted, socially-empowered programmers ascend into positions where they are able to reshape corporate culture, I suspect we'll see a vast improvement in working conditions for female employees in their industry.)


Jiggy wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
I take it, I pick it apart, I beat it with a hammer to see how it holds up- the same way I do with anything else. If it can't survive examination then I'm not going to buy it.
I'm never going grocery shopping with you.

Gallagher made a career out of it! :)


Funky Badger wrote:


They said listen, not shut up.

You changed that yourself.

They said hush up. Same thing.


TanithT wrote:
What the effing eff. How is it even possible to have a conversation about sexism with people who automatically get angry and accuse you of stereotyped female behaviors in response to a discussion of the cultural matrix of the problem?

You can't. That's the beauty of the system.


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Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


'Privilege' is a fairly common term in discussions of inequality, whether based on sex, race, income bracket, or whatever. It's pretty much standard lingo for such topics, so whatever baggage you're experiencing is yours, not the term's.

It's a common term, but for a certain large number of guys it's just enraging. Maddening. Red flag to a bull. They hear it and rational thought just shuts down. Remember that John Scalzi article? About how "straight white guy" is the lowest difficulty setting? Here's how that article starts:

Quote:

I’ve been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word “privilege,” to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon. It’s not that the word “privilege” is incorrect, it’s that it’s not their word. When confronted with “privilege,” they fiddle with the word itself, and haul out the dictionaries and find every possible way to talk about the word but not any of the things the word signifies.

So, the challenge: how to get across the ideas bound up in the word “privilege,” in a way that your average straight white man will get, without freaking out about it?

Scalzi tried it by coming up with the "lowest difficulty" concept, which... you can just click through and read the article, yeah? It's not that long. But anyway, his point has been well demonstrated on this thread: a lot of white guys hear that term privilege and they just freak the f#%* out. You can try explaining until you're blue in the face that it's not about them personally, it doesn't mean they're bad people or oppressing anyone or getting a special White Guy refund on their taxes. They process it as an insult -- a very sly and particular sort of insult. And they feel compelled to go all WHAT IS THIS PRIVILEGE and/or I AM NOT PRIVILEGED and/or THE VERY USE OF THIS TERM IS...

I don't think it's the word. Read the comment thread on Scalzi's article. You get all the same arguments there.

It's the concept some white men react to, not the word.
I think Scalzi's extended analogy does a good job and it might get through to some people, but you still need a term. You can't plop the entire analogy in every time you want to refer to privilege.


Mikaze wrote:

.

Sticking with tabletop RPGs(and trying not to think about the videogame industry and the actual regression of mainstream comics)...I tentatively want to say things have gotten better? I mean, I can't see something like Slayer's Guide to Female Gamers getting printed today.

Actually I can see it being easier given the echo chamber effect of the internet.

EDIT:
In fact one of the latest and more successful Kickstarters sexualized a women who given the description of the figure was about ready to be killed off by a dragon.


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Samurai wrote:
I would suggest that if you want to have a discussion about make gaming more welcoming to women, and you're having that discussion with a group of men, then you specifically need to avoid bringing up a term that is loaded with baggage and has historically been used to refer to men in a very negative context.

If there is a better term that actually describes the issue and does not have historical baggage of being used in a hurtful, negative way, please suggest it.

When I say, "Fantasy art and literature is largely created for and from the gaze perspective of straight white men, and this can make women feel that it is not for them so much as about them as objects of gaze," what I am conveying is a simple fact without blaming anyone just for liking what they like and writing what they know.

It's cool to think bewbs are hot. It's cool to think wang is hot. But, if only one of those things is being consistently depicted, dwelt on and sexualized, even in contexts where it is stupid, you are likely to feel that you are at a party to which you were not really supposed to have been invited. If it is your anatomy being consistently sexualized, and this attitude carries over to you personally in places you don't consent to it, that creates a pretty uncomfortable environment. It shouldn't happen, but it does.

Straight white males are lucky enough to be able to sit down with an average gaming book or at an average gaming table and see all around them that they are welcome and included, they can always be the powerful heroes, and the stories and art are from their viewpoint - eg, that bewbs are hot, lesbians are hot, but there isn't any wang or m4m because 'nobody' wants to see wang. Straight women and gay men do, but in this particular paradigm they are the 'nobody'.

It is really not much fun to be the 'nobody'.

Can you think of a word better than 'privilege' to describe the situation without necessarily attacking or blaming people just for liking what they like and not thinking very hard about the fact that the game largely caters to that at the expense of people who don't happen to like the same things?

Because honestly, someone who does not even know about this stuff or think about it is going to have a very hard time making women feel welcome, because they won't actually know what is making them feel unwelcome.


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Jessica Price wrote:
I don't think you can talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women without talking about privilege.

First off, I'd like to point out that I am certainly on the bus with you about continuing to improve gaming spaces and the community in general.

On a tangentially related note, our gaming table used to be about 50/50 gender split for a decade or so, we lost the girls/ladies over time as they headed off into long term relationships, had kids etc. Lifestyle changed and with that so did their hobbies. Now its mostly guys. Except at PFS games where the table dynamic shifts back to a bit more gender balance.

Anyhow, back to the point...

I think its a good and healthy thing for threads such as this to pop up, and hopefully we have all been able to pull out the odd bit to take away and implement for the greater good.

Unfortunately the 'privilege' tag is a real emotive hot button that is going to create a lot of friction if it is thrown out there, right or wrong, and is going to become a hotly debated topic moments after. Of course you are free to use what words you like, it's just that rigorous debate will shortly follow. As you said, its hard to talk on the topic of gender equality without talking about privilege, but then the debate was stifled and we were told talking about privilege was a derailment, which in turn cemented views that this was an attack and an attempt to censure rather than a discussion.

I don't believe that was your intention, but that is how the events appeared.

I look forward to the rest of the conversation though, for some salient points of wisdom, through to some jaw-agape amazement at gaming supplements I had never heard of slowly being dragged into the light... like the Slayers guide.


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BNW, let me start by saying, while I don't post much, I have followed the boards for a while, and in general I agree with you more than not, so this isn't just a "You're Stoopid, anonymous person whom I'm judging based only on 3 sentences I just read"

But, in this case I disagree vehemently. The errorI think you, and a number of posters on this thread, fall prey to, is thinking that this is a problem for you to analyze and solve in any way.

It's not.

It's not about you. It's not about how you approach ideas. It's not about what words make you feel angry or defensive. Or what YOU can do so YOU feel like less of a jerk or weirdo or whatever.

It's

Not

About

YOU.

It's about the women who play this game. And the women who might want to play this game. And the women who never will play this game because of various and sundry reasons.

The OP asked how to be more inclusive of women. That's not a topic you, or I, or anyone with a penis gets to have an opinion that matters on. We have the 'privilege' of listening to some rather articulate and patient women explain some of those reasons to us. Our only acceptable response is to say "Okay, I hear you."

Then we take the information provided and do with it what we will. Maybe we think they're full of it and don't do anything. Maybe we don't think there's a problem and don't do anything. Maybe we make small changes to how we speak and interact. Maybe we have life-changing epiphanies and dedicate ourselves to the cause of feminism.

But whatever we do, it starts with simply listening.. Not saying "Yeah, but..." or "You're wrong about this..." Or "You should do this instead..."

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that not one if the women who've shared here are asking for your help analyzing their experience, their reactions to that experience, or even their thoughts on how to make future experiences better. They are giving their thoughts, take them or leave them, but it's not your responsibility to stress test their thought processes for them.

I said hush up. I meant hush up. Because, I believe you're wrong, EVERYTHING is to be gained by men shutting up about a whole host of women's issues and simply listening to what they say.

Project Manager

Epic Meepo wrote:
I should also add that I disagree with one part of your definition: misogyny has nothing to do with male privilege. Hurtful speech and actions can be perpetrated by anyone, even if they are not in a position of power.

That's a fair point -- I took a shortcut there. I should have said that the privilege of men in games allows them to be misogynistic without a lot of the consequences they'd have to deal with if they behaved the same way in a less male-dominated environment.

Project Manager

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Shifty wrote:
we were told talking about privilege was a derailment

Again, to be clear, I said the discussion of whether men have it difficult or are subject to prejudice outside of gaming, in America, etc. is a derailment to the discussion of how to make gaming spaces more welcoming to women.

I stand firmly by that premise.


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Jessica Price wrote:
I stand firmly by that premise.

If one puts on the table that X is a contributing factor to a problem, you consider it is a derailment for people to then engage in discussion over X?

I consider that if a point is brought up in a discussion that people should have a right to reply, and that one side should not be able to table an item, then deny any further discussion on it as taboo and out of line. I don't believe that in open and honest dialogue one party can simply dictate what is or isn't legitimate to the discussion based on their worldview, and simply silence objectors, either through direct censorship, belittling, or flat dismissal of their point of view.


Shifty wrote:
Jessica Price wrote:
I stand firmly by that premise.

If one puts on the table that X is a contributing factor to a problem, you consider it is a derailment for people to then engage in discussion over X?

I consider that if a point is brought up in a discussion that people should have a right to reply, and that one side should not be able to table an item, then deny any further discussion on it as taboo and out of line. I don't believe that in open and honest dialogue one party can simply dictate what is or isn't legitimate to the discussion based on their worldview, and simply silence objectors, either through direct censorship, belittling, or flat dismissal of their point of view.

No she has it right. The vast majority of the people who tried to engage in that argument were petty logical fallacies meant to divert attention from the main argument.


ElPapoFugitivo wrote:


It's not.

It's not about you.
It's about the women who play this game.

More than one professor has told me that 90% of wildlife management is people management. 90% of what makes women uncomfortable at a gaming table is things men do: from the combat emphasis of the game and half naked ladies on the covers of the books all the way down to comments made at the table by the individual players and DMs. Trying to to be more inclusive of women without addressing what men are doing is an outright contradiction.

Quote:
We have the 'privilege' of listening to some rather articulate and patient women explain some of those reasons to us. Our only acceptable response is to say "Okay, I hear you."

This is a thousand times more sexist than I can be at my club dragging best.

Just because someone is a woman doesn't mean that they're right. Just because someone is a woman doesn't mean they can't have their position challenged the same way I would when i think a guy is wrong.

Quote:
Then we take the information provided and do with it what we will.

And if I'm tossing some of it out the window chances are pretty good I'm not the only one. Given some of the other posters responses I KNOW I'm not the only one.

If the information and suggestions are to be anything other than preaching to the choir; if its to ever make any difference in peoples behavior, you need to know why it isn't working. It has to be a dialog.


Madscientist that's fine, but it behooves one to consider that if you throw a 'social handgrenade' into a conversation one of the casualties of doing so might be the conversation itself.

A little sensitivity goes a long way.

Liberty's Edge

Shifty wrote:
A little sensitivity goes a long way.

Something everyone on this thread could potentially believe.


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PFS needs more female GMs

Paizo should put together a Mentoring program and Pilot it.

The best place to start the Pilot would be Paizo Con.

You have awsome resources available at Paizo Con.... Lisa, Lillith, Judy yourself.

Make it more than a pannel, get hands on.

You want to make women feel comfortable in a big hall situation with lots of tables being run by men change the ratio to 50/50.

More female GMs = More male GMs learning from female GMs, sharing experience and culture.

The best way to make a change is top down.


I'd like to see that!

The Exchange

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On the flip side of this, and please don't attack me for it. My home group is an all male group. We're late 30's early 40's and most are married with kids.

We game as escapism. It's our equivalent of the friday night card game. We get together, laugh, roll dice and kill things in a fantasy world. Often we get outrageous in our antics in game and say the most amazingly politically incorrect things to each other, as parody rather than true belief.

We do this to let off steam. Nearly all of us are in jobs where we work with people of all genders. Political correctness has gotten so intense now that you almost constantly have to guard what is said all the time. To the point where some conversations becomes meaningless fencing around difficult topics.

As such, our roleplay is our Man Cave, so to speak. It's where we go to be men, in the presence of other men, where the things we say don't offend anyone. It's blowing off steam.

I we had a woman join our group, this dynamic would completely change. We wouldn't carry on like that in front of women because we understand it's stupid and rude. I don't think for our private home game we're going to try and recruit a woman, because we don't want this escape from society to end.

Sometimes men need to be stupid and rude in front of each other though. It's why we go camping, or fishing or hunting together.

This is not advocating behaviour like this in public groups, but I think it needs to be said.

Hope I got my point across without sounding like some sexist mysogonist. I'm certainly not one of those. But just like women have a certain psychology to how they want to be treated, men have a certain way we occasionally like to act. It's stupid, sure, but it's what men do. Those of us who understand the need for the behaviour do so without the women in our lives being subjected to it. The women in our lives understand our need to do so occasionally. Works for us.

Now when I run sessions for the kids at the local game shop, I treat that like my work place. It's completely professional and I refuse to allow bigotry, racism or sexism into the game. It's a different setting, and I'm doing it for completely different reasons to my private game.

I guess some folk just can't find the line where to stop.
Cheers


Jessica Price wrote:
Shifty wrote:
we were told talking about privilege was a derailment

Again, to be clear, I said the discussion of whether men have it difficult or are subject to prejudice outside of gaming, in America, etc. is a derailment to the discussion of how to make gaming spaces more welcoming to women.

I stand firmly by that premise.

Fair enough if you're going to take that tack so be it; but if that's the case, then you really need to consider how female privledge contributes to the formation of groups of men who haven't been given the opportunity (or aren't capable) of socializing with women in a manner that women find appropriate and why some guys might be resistant to allowing women into "their" realm.

In some respects female rejection of male attempts at social connections is a postive feedback loop. He tries to be nice with a compliment, she's not attracted to him and as such finds the attempt creepy and treats him as such. On a larger scale such guys tend to congegate together in a social group that's more tolerant of their appearnce or social ability who inturn reinforce it or give more allowance for the quirks of their fellows. As a consequence when a female gamer shows up she's ends up subjected to the same sort of rejection those guys have been on the recieving end or.

OR...

We could abandon the semantic navel gazing, accept that some people suck and the while the product provided by Paizo does cater to some elements of that sub-culture, rather than asking people to change it might make more sense to make the RPG experience more acceptable to women.

My first thought would be to approach it as a marketing problem and do things like holding focus groups with women who aren't gamers to see what they might like or dislike about gaming (I'm guessing focusing on the RP elements as opposed to the tactical ones as an example, and trying to eliminate the social stigma's associated with it, but I'm a man and suggest that you might want to ask women instead).

You could also hold focus groups with female gamers and develop product lines that cater to their likes more as opposed to the current products which are substantially aimed at males.

The key thing here is that these are actionable items that actually address the goal in mind which is to get more women into Pathfinder. If Paizo's taking notes, having more female PFS GM's as mentioned by a previous poster is probably a fantastic idea.

ETA: +100 to Wrath's post. Gaming is what I do when I want to escape from the world. Telling guys like me that I need to change how I enjoy my down time to be more senstive to other people's needs is a good way to help me find new hobbies.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:

Icy, you're living in a region that has achieved perhaps the most in terms of gender equality of all the planet - Scandinavian countries are paragons of social advancement in several areas, including changing the mindset about who is weak and who is wearing the trousers.

You can safely assume that everywhere else it's more or less worse (in some places badly so). Over here (democratic country, EU member, yadda yadda) average wage of a woman is lower (because they're seen as not as efficient as men), their position on labour market is worse (many companies refuse to hire women for they afraid that she'll get pregnant and go for a paid maternity leave, stranding them with a phantom employee for a year) and don't get me started on abortion.

So you're kind of sitting on the top of a tree and are looking down.

Over here leading european country with female leader and women earn 50-80% of men even in top positions. More and more women get into top positions though as feminism and women-networking is strong here. There even is a special women´s ministry for equalization and women rights at workplaces, which has a lot to say.

The real winners though are the ones in charges of the companies because they save up a lot of money by hiring more and more women whom they pay less as the men. It´s not really equalization. Also important questions like pregnancy and work as well as child support by wokring half-time and kindergarden places etc stay unsolved.

I agree with the bag though, Scandinavia is most advanced in some places and i wish we can learn and adapt from you. That would be very great for europe!


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Wrath wrote:

On the flip side of this, and please don't attack me for it. My home group is an all male group. We're late 30's early 40's and most are married with kids.

We game as escapism. It's our equivalent of the friday night card game. We get together, laugh, roll dice and kill things in a fantasy world. Often we get outrageous in our antics in game and say the most amazingly politically incorrect things to each other, as parody rather than true belief.

We do this to let off steam. Nearly all of us are in jobs where we work with people of all genders. Political correctness has gotten so intense now that you almost constantly have to guard what is said all the time. To the point where some conversations becomes meaningless fencing around difficult topics.

As such, our roleplay is our Man Cave, so to speak. It's where we go to be men, in the presence of other men, where the things we say don't offend anyone. It's blowing off steam.

I we had a woman join our group, this dynamic would completely change. We wouldn't carry on like that in front of women because we understand it's stupid and rude. I don't think for our private home game we're going to try and recruit a woman, because we don't want this escape from society to end.

Sometimes men need to be stupid and rude in front of each other though. It's why we go camping, or fishing or hunting together.

This is not advocating behaviour like this in public groups, but I think it needs to be said.

Hope I got my point across without sounding like some sexist mysogonist. I'm certainly not one of those. But just like women have a certain psychology to how they want to be treated, men have a certain way we occasionally like to act. It's stupid, sure, but it's what men do. Those of us who understand the need for the behaviour do so without the women in our lives being subjected to it. The women in our lives understand our need to do so occasionally. Works for us.

I'd just like to point out, though it's probably implied, that all applies to some men, not all men. I prefer mixed groups for almost all activities and am probably more comfortable with groups of women than with all male groups.

I've got no need to hang out in the Man Cave where women aren't allowed. I don't enjoy the locker room atmosphere of the Man Cave. I don't guard what I say around women more than I do around men, it's far more about how well I know the person.

Just another data point.


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Wrath & Petrus

They are not talking about what you do in your own home guys... You could wear tutus, strap codpieces to your heads and smother eachother in jelly - Nobody is interested....

This is about getting women into the hobby - focus!


Wrath wrote:
As such, our roleplay is our Man Cave, so to speak. It's where we go to be men, in the presence of other men, where the things we say don't offend anyone. It's blowing off steam.

Nothing wrong with this especially since you are respectful outside of this private, all-consenting-adults space.

I know some folks who get together to, er, live a "Gorean" lifestyle. If you don't know what this is, you probably don't want to. While I have less than zero interest in participating and would like to personally stay very far away from their happy fun time, I would defend their right to have it as long as they do it in the privacy of their own spaces with other consenting adults.

Similarly I'm sure if you're exclusively heterosexual you probably shouldn't wander into a Blue Feather Camp at an SCA war. If you do, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you are hit on by someone of the same gender and that is offensive to you.

What consenting adults do in private spaces is their beeswax. If you don't consent, do not enter their space.

There is a problem if you take some of that stuff into a public space where people who don't consent to that brand of fun have it sprung on them by surprise, or in spaces they have every right and business to be in. The problem boils down to consent, not 'political correctness'.


The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Wrath & Petrus

They are not talking about what you do in your own home guys... You could wear tutus, strap codpieces to your heads and smother eachother in jelly - Nobody is interested....

This is about getting women into the hobby - focus!

Hey, maybe you could get more women into the hobby if you were willing to do this and let us watch. :D

Liberty's Edge

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

This is a thousand times more sexist than I can be at my club dragging best.

Just because someone is a woman doesn't mean that they're right. Just because someone is a woman doesn't mean they can't have their position challenged the same way I would when i think a guy is wrong.

ElPapo isn't saying that what women are saying is right. He even said that you have all right to completely ignore and disbelieve and disagree with what a woman says. Nobody is saying that.

What he's saying is that, as a man, you don't know what it's like to be a woman in an environment like the gaming hobby. Some of us are trying to talk about our experiences in the hopes that you can understand and empathise with us. Ideally you take something away from that and realise that some things probably need to be worked on so everyone can have an awesome time together.

But there are a lot of people who are coming in here to say that there is no such thing as male privilege, which is an inherent denial of the struggles some women experience based entirely on their gender. There are people are coming in here and saying, "No, that's not how it is." There are people coming in here and effectively declaring, "let's make this conversation about men."

If you believe there is a conversation to be had on the topic of whether men are privileged in our society or not, then I encourage you to have it, but it's really not appropriate to have that conversation while other people are trying to find solutions to the very real problems they face. You are effectively coming into a conversation on how to improve African American education rates and complaining about scholarships that are awarded to black people only. Or coming into a conversation on what to do about gay and lesbian suicide rates and questioning whether there is a need to teach children about homosexuality in school health classes. These might be valid topics to discuss, but not there. Not here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Besides, my congratulations to Jessica Price for that interview, it´s very articulate and i liked it a lot. At the same time my condolences for having to go through such horrible experiences.
I also want to congratulate Alice Margatroid (hope i spelled that right out of memory) for her posts and attitude. I think it´s that kind of patience and commitment which can really make a difference over time.
There is a lot wrong and it really needs to be improved and for that must be pointed at and spoken out. I don´t want to go into detail since that probably would be derailing and also im too tired to make this more explizit in a fashion i would like myself.

I often try to invite women to our gaming parties and i succeded in interesting some for table top games, but i wasn´t successful in interesting them in RPG´s. Most of them view it as too nerdy or childish to even consider and if they happen to know it we can thank "Big Bang Theory" which often doesn´t make it better. I hope i can find better ways to promote the game in the female population here soon, since i think some females i know would make great players and surely have a lot of fun, which would definately be an enrichment.

I disagree to female gamer specific products. Should they all be pink? The supposedly different mindsets of men and women come mostly from socialization which is direct subject to the culture inherent sexism.

I have to add, this is the point where white christian men really are the victims. We need help to see and understand this and to free ourselves.

Liberty's Edge

Hayato Ken wrote:
I also want to congratulate Alice Margatroid (hope i spelled that right out of memory) for her posts and attitude. I think it´s that kind of patience and commitment which can really make a difference over time.

Aw shucks. :)

I try my best to be patient, although it's hard--there's not a single counter-argument in this thread I haven't heard a hundred times before in discussions like these, and the frustration builds up quickly. When I get too frustrated I just take a time out from the thread and go whine to my girlfriend. (She wonders why I do this to myself...)

I really, really just want people to understand. 'Cuz then maybe we might get something done.

Editor

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

PFS needs more female GMs. Paizo should put together a mentoring program and Pilot it. The best place to start the Pilot would be PaizoCon. You have awesome resources available at PaizoCon... Lisa, Lillith, Judy, and yourself. Make it more than a panel, get hands on. You want to make women feel comfortable in a big hall situation with lots of tables being run by men change the ratio to 50/50. More female GMs = More male GMs learning from female GMs, sharing experience and culture.

The best way to make a change is top down.

Intriguing! Pinged Jessica to make sure she sees this.


ALice Margatroid wrote:
What he's saying is that, as a man, you don't know what it's like to be a woman in an environment like the gaming hobby. Some of us are trying to talk about our experiences in the hopes that you can understand and empathise with us

Do you just want the understanding and empathy or do you want it to lead to a change in behavior?

The Exchange

Yep, agreed about the public persona stuff. I was just trying to she'd light on why it happens sometimes. Some folks are bad at knowing the social boundaries, and in gaming circles this is particularly true.

Sometimes getting more females in means giving some of the socially inept men somewhere private to play while the others gather in public arenas.

Maybe you could run sessions where you offer all female games, all male games and mixed gender games. This will certainly cater to everyone, but I don't think it's the right answer. Certainly it's the least optimal answer for a setting like PFS or paizo con.

If you want more female gamers, get em while their teenagers. Target the places like Manga or sci fi conventions and introduce your concept to them there. There are thousands of girls out there who love the genre, they love computer games now, they read fantasy novels, they are creative and intelligent. Target them at their interest and they'll leap on the chance to run games and play in games.

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, I've recently started a chess club in my school, but from it we got a side branch of players who are going run Magic the gathering and DnD (4th ed). This group is close to 50% women, and they are fantastically keen to both play and run games.

If you can find a way to tap into schools to get clubs running like this, you'll double your female attendance for sure. Unfortunately, schools are notoriously sceptical about letting these activities run. I had trouble getting it approved in Australia in a state school. I suspect there are places where that's going to be even harder.

Cheers

Liberty's Edge

BNW, ideally, the latter; but you can only have that with the former.

If you don't want to change anything based on what you read here, that's your prerogative. Unfortunate, in my eyes, but I would not take that right away from you. It's a "you can lead a horse to water" kind of situation, really.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yes that´s why i admire your patience.
But see it that way, for everyone of us guys it might be the first time we bump into something like that and it might also be the first adequate oportunity to ask questions and discuss it and that makes all the difference. Because once a person has opened it´s eyes to occurences like this, they become part of their reality and cannot be denied anymore.

The world is changing and we all need to move. Neither men nor women can rest on the lies our ancestors used as world view anymore.

That does affect gaming tables and the gaming industrie a lot.
Industry is all about power in the end and that is the all underlying concept that has to be renegotiated on a global scale this century because it governs all of the rest. What else is sexism than one manifestation of a commonly misused structural power?

Suggestions how to make gaming environments more female gamer friendly though should at least 50% be subject to female´s input i think.
And there were some good suggestions. Simple small things can make a great important deal probably which many men would never become aware of by themselves.

Liberty's Edge

By the way, I LOVE the idea of a women GM mentor group. I mean, those sorts of things exist in many other domains--why not gaming too?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Wrath wrote:


Maybe you could run sessions where you offer all female games, all male games and mixed gender games. This will certainly cater to everyone, but I don't think it's the right answer. Certainly it's the least optimal answer for a setting like PFS or paizo con.

Now exchange the words female and male with black and white and see where it leads. I don´t think this is a good idea.

It would be much better to have all in one game where everyone can find something for itself and at the same time learn something a more about the other, which is also leading to more mutual respect and understanding.

Countless problems arise by lack of communication and the wrong role models and pictures propagated by the media.

Project Manager

Wrath wrote:

On the flip side of this, and please don't attack me for it. My home group is an all male group. We're late 30's early 40's and most are married with kids.

We game as escapism. It's our equivalent of the friday night card game. We get together, laugh, roll dice and kill things in a fantasy world. Often we get outrageous in our antics in game and say the most amazingly politically incorrect things to each other, as parody rather than true belief.

We do this to let off steam. Nearly all of us are in jobs where we work with people of all genders. Political correctness has gotten so intense now that you almost constantly have to guard what is said all the time. To the point where some conversations becomes meaningless fencing around difficult topics.

As such, our roleplay is our Man Cave, so to speak. It's where we go to be men, in the presence of other men, where the things we say don't offend anyone. It's blowing off steam.

Do you have women in the group? No? Then I really don't care (even theoretically) what you say there. It's your business, same as when you go out drinking with your male friends. I care if there's a woman in your group who's being made uncomfortable by what you do and say.

Project Manager

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Hayato Ken wrote:


I disagree to female gamer specific products. Should they all be pink? The supposedly different mindsets of men and women come mostly from socialization which is direct subject to the culture inherent sexism.

Well, Paizo seems to have had some success making products for people, instead of men or women.

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