More articulately put than my semi coherent mutterings Epic Mepo.
"Yeh we experienced something like that too, it sucks, we probably do not experience it as often, but we kinda know how you feel.
How can we help....."
Can you look back at some not all of the previous posts as that message.
I had seen a review or two of that. It's as terrible as it looks.
|
I think people are often seeing things as they wish to see them and actively looking for offense you will find it.I'd say that the vast majority are well-intentioned, but also kind of oblivious to stuff that goes on sometimes right in front of them.
There's a really good essay on privilege by John Scalzi here. In it, he compares life to an MMORPG, and explains that privilege is like getting to play on a lower difficulty setting than everyone else.
I'd take it further, though. Not only are the rewards better and the challenges easier for playing on a lower difficulty setting, but some of the monsters other people are fighting are invisible to you..."Hey, why should she get help? I handled my zombies just fine by myself!"
I don't think guys who are oblivious to sexism in their workplace are bad people. I don't think guys who see sexism in their workplace and assume that, since they're not actively participating in it, it's not their problem are bad people. I think they are doing what's natural. But I do think that environments where women are rare create places and teams that, if not hostile, are often tone-deaf to and about women and the challenges...
I guess you didn't read the interview. Are you saying I shouldn't have been offended by the guy who wouldn't stop touching me, talking about my breasts, and acting in physically threatening ways when I told him to stop? Or by the people I went to for help asking, "Are you sure you didn't enjoy the attention?" I don't think I was looking for offense. In fact, I waited a long time to ask for help because I didn't want to be a complainer or make waves. <wry>
But again, I'd ask you to stop derailing. The point of this thread is to talk about how to make gaming spaces friendlier for women.
You know what's not relevant to that discussion?
"Men have it...
JP I think you missed my point. To simplify; Having worked in male-centric and at one point misogynistic career fields it has been my experience that changes are driven by the high level managers. The managers were forced to care because women didn't take the harassment, the subsequent mid-level blow off or the eventual high-level disregard. They stood tall endured the fight and forced the management via their accountants and painfully pricey lawsuits to change long standing practices to be more inclusive for women. Paizo is IMHO a great place to work because of conscientious management that would never allow that sort of BS to occur in the first place.
I think it's f-in repulsive that you endured that sort of mistreatment in a workplace in this modern era. I say that women must demand, fight and shame the a-holes that do this. I don't deny the problem, I don't endorse actions, but as a male I can not lead this fight and I endorse every women who straightens up and kicks 'em in the ding-ding. If you want a more inclusive atmosphere you must demand it.
As for gaming groups and childish domination fantasies at tables; well guys are mostly idiots at a young age and oppressed/repressed/socially awkward guys even more so, especially on the topic of a girl in the clubhouse. It is not right and as an older guy I don't put up with and try to lead by example. Heck I love it when the girl at our table GM's occasionally because she has a different approach and style than my combat and tactics style. Plus over the years it has made me a better, more rounded GM to incorporate a bit more story into my games. FTR she works too hard to GM full time and I like to GM, it has nothing to do with our dangly bits.
As for making gaming and gaming spaces friendlier for women I think it boils down to women need to do a few simple things;
1. Do not tolerate sexism or misogyny. Find the appropriate source and report offenders.
2. Understand that males of all ages may not have the tools to understand their own idiocy. Women must train and inform their male counterparts where the boundary is and enforce it.
3. At last resort leaving IS an option. Poisonous environments are inhabitable, but you don't have to live there. While it may not seem like it there are always better people to play with. We all know the immature idiots and I have witnessed a small group of locals get smaller and smaller as some in the crowd get more mature and move on. Soon enough they are relegated to swapping insults with 13 year olds over games of NHL '12 because no one wants to deal with it.
Thank you for being the willing punching bag to bring this to light and for standing up for your rights. I personally was aware that the EU's in video games were acted like a-holes, but had no idea that the problem was systemic through the industry.
|
|
"Men have it difficult in areas outside of gaming." (What does this have to do with making gaming spaces friendlier for women?)This actually touches on one of the biggest hurdles there is to making male-dominated gaming spaces friendlier to women: the differences between female and male psychology can result in men and women talking past one another unless they each take care to properly interpret what the other group is saying.
For example, when a man makes the statement, "Men have it difficult in areas outside gaming," he sounds rather dismissive and self-centered... until you realize that one of the primary psychological underpinnings of male bonding is banding together in the face of shared adversity. To the average male, a declaration that he has faced challenges resembling your own is a profound statement of solidarity. Rejecting such declarations as off-topic Bingo, while certainly anyone's right, can lead to some men feeling that their sympathy is unwelcome.
Conversely, I'm sure there are plenty of statements women make that contain complex emotional and social nuances which are lost in translation when the listener is a male to whom those nuances have not been properly explained. And I'm sure the women making such statements feel just as unwelcome when those statements fall on deaf ears.
Also doesn't help that a portion of the OP came off like a slap at all men followed by "hey we are not fighting here"
But again, I'd ask you to stop derailing. The point of this thread is to talk about how to make gaming spaces friendlier for women.
I my experience threads are getting derailed all over these boards (and most others) all the time. People are simply too keen on contributing the things that cross their front lobes at that very second instead of first reading, forming an informed opinion and only then posting/talking.
While I do not like to say "That's just the way it is" it's just the way it is.
Back to topic:
In my experience you need to know yourself before you can really make something going out from yourself comfortable to another person.
Example:
I am good at math.
I am impatient which makes me hate it when combat drags on.
My wive and the wives of our friends are not as good at math than I am (but they don't really care as we know us for 20+ years).
===>
I tend to jump and calculate results for the player if it takes too long.
I do that more often/faster with our female gamers.
I tend to forget that not every female can handle me as well as my wive and out (female) friends.
====
Method to make the table friendlier to new female gamers:
I must stop being impatient and I must root out my paradigm that females are usually worse at math than males.
Not easy. Joga helps.
Also doesn't help that a portion of the OP came off like a slap at all men followed by "hey we are not fighting here"
Ah, take it like a man ;-)
Also doesn't help that a portion of the OP came off like a slap at all men followed by "hey we are not fighting here"Ah, take it like a man ;-)
Sexist comments like that are a barrier to gender equality. Congratulations, you are now part of the problem!
In a gaming context, that would be the same region that produced Lamentations of the Flame Princess.
WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT!?
Cannot unsee :(
And let us not forget the Slayer's Guide to Amazons, with its centerfold.
This came out in 2001. Not 1980 or even 90, just 12 years ago for 3rd edition. The stats on these things could be used with Pathfinder. For all the talk that we are more progressive and better than the video game industry, we have a lot of baggage that needs to be attended to. As I mentioned in another thread, I have always gamed with women. My very first session in D&D was with my two sisters. They went on to be part of our first real D&D group which included my older sister's best freind. Three females in my first RPG group. I can count on one hand the number of campaigns I have been involved with that did not include any women and still have fingers left over. That was from Christmas 1981 to present. As such, I wasn't aware of any misogyny or sexism until the blinders came off relatively recently. Now I wish I could go back to being blind. Ultimately this behaviour is simply disrespectful.
Respect is the key. Treat people with it, no problems. Show disrespect, people will feel unwelcome. So how do we show respect? How about assuming that a new player, regardless of gender, can learn the system as well as you did. Without help. Having female NPCs that actually have power and use it intelligently for good or ill works to balance the scales. How about having a male NPC require aid without seeming weak or having had his power diminished in some capacity? It is astonishing how many times male characters in fiction are only in need of aid because some weakness of theirs has been exploited, rendering the normally capable man helpless until his power is restored and he kicks butt. One of the reasons I liked Kill Bill so much is that it flipped that whole trope on its head. No one is saying that the sexy succubus character need take a powder. But a little balance should go a long way to making things more friendly and less off putting.
All that said, this remains a very male dominated hobby. And when I look at the above list, I gotta say that a lot of it reads like not making the game *un*attractive. That is, they've removed a lot of potential stumbling blocks. But what (if anything) could they be doing to get more women and girls interested in the game?
I think reversing some tropes, making some male characters require help without depowering them or making them stereotypical "damsels in distress" with a Y-chromosome, and making some female characters strong and independent without neccessarily being overtly sexual would all do wonders. I will give Paizo a big nod in this area for the character of Oriana, Commander of the Gray Maidens. She was exactly what I am talking about here.
They might be able to do something about the art as well. They can talk to the artists they employ and point out what they want in their illustrations. I can see a number of difficulties in this from time constraints to communicating ideas effectively, but it could alter the material they are presented with and allow them to improve upon it.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hi.
I am Brazilian (a notorious sexist country) and in the city i live, we have a greater than average number of female gamers. We talk a lot about it. Around here, most female gamers are known to be girlfriends of someone playing, eventually the couple break-up and the girl keep playing. As most girls are someone's girlfriend (a popular brazilian saying says " Every girlfriend of a friend of mine is a man."), most gamers learned to respect female gamers, even if they are single. With time we got so used to that, that woman who started playing by themselves or were more enthusiatic about the game than male counterparts were common, so we started seeming them as for what they contributed to the game not because they were woman.
1- Male gamers behave a lot better if a female gamer is present.
2- Female gamers role play better (brazilian gamers valorize role play over roll play)
3- Female gamers are a bit more organized and dedicated than male
4- Female GMs have a better narrative, in my opnion.
I am not saying that we are perfect or even right. But i do think that games were both male and female gamers play together are better than male-only or female-only.
Our greatest problem are from sexism from women themselves. Many woman here think that anything that doesn't make them pretty ou sexy isn't worth of their time, so they keep away from gaming (or game in secret). Other women thinks that women that play games with men are only trying to seduce them (specially mothers), and this ensure all types of woes.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, I don't understand why people won't allow us to have this discussion in peace. Why can't we have one bloody thread in a gaming space about how to make the environment more welcoming to women and other gaming minorities without people trying to shut down that discussion?I think when you brought up the topic of privilege and that men are playing on easy mode it became a discussion point.
I'm not sure I believe that this entire discussion wouldn't have gone similarly without that post (because almost every discussion of women in gaming seems to go similarly), but okay:
I don't think you can talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women without talking about privilege.
The point -- if you read it in context-- in bringing up privilege was to say that a lot of the things that make gaming spaces uncomfortable for women are, I think, unintentional. It was to say, "I think, when a space is primarily male, assumptions get made and stuff happens that makes women uncomfortable that men don't intend to do so, because 'straight white male' = 'default person' and 'everyone else' = 'other' (which is privilege in a nutshell). And to explain why they didn't notice, I talked about privilege: for a lot of guys, you don't have to deal with these challenges, so you don't notice them and are generally unaware that they exist at all.
People asked "How do we make gaming spaces more friendly for women?"
And my response was, "Part of doing that is learning to notice stuff you might not normally notice because it's not directed at you," (it's common courtesy + awareness). (Again, this is privilege in a nutshell -- you don't have to notice it, so you don't.)
To use your example, your daughter looks at the "big kids table" and sees only guys and thinks it's not really for her. Presumably, a boy her age looks at the "big kids table" and sees only guys and doesn't have to worry that it's not for him because everyone (or hopefully, almost everyone rather than everyone -- I hope there are at least a few women playing) he sees there is his gender. He's already playing in "easier mode" than your daughter, as far as getting involved in RPGs, because he doesn't even have to worry about whether he's welcome at the table.
That's privilege.
It doesn't mean anyone has done anything wrong. No one has. It's just a bunch of guys playing games they like. But it is a problem in that it's potentially causing a girl to wonder if she's welcome at the table because she's a girl, whereas a boy doesn't have to worry about that.
That's privilege in its most innocent form.
There's also privilege in less-innocent forms, and there's a strain of it in RPGing. Paizo I think is leading the charge to make RPGing more inclusive. But we're up against a certain amount of what I'll call legacy sexism, in that there are a lot of remnants of days when RPGs were unashamedly directed only at men.
(An example that comes up fairly frequently is art style. It's not something that personally bothers me -- I like most of the art -- but there are people who are bothered by it.)
By itself, that's also pretty innocent. But there is a strain of resistance to changing that -- you get people (usually players) whose response to the idea that maybe we should show some women who aren't in chainmail bikinis, or that we want to have women in positions of power in our stories and our world, or that we're going to show same-sex couples in our fiction, and so on, is this sort of, "But this is ours! Get out of our treehouse! Why are you trying to take away our stuff?"
And that attitude that RPGs somehow "belong" to straight white guys and that women and gays and people of color are coming in and trying to co-opt it for political correctness or an agenda or whatever, rather than that we also play and make games and have as much of a right as anyone else to represent ourselves, people like us, and our relationships and experiences, because that is natural for creatives, is also an example of privilege, and privilege in a less innocent, more hostile form.
And then there's privilege in its most hostile form (outright misogyny), which includes things like what I (and many, if not most, of my female colleagues, because my experiences weren't particularly unusual, or even the worst experiences among other women I worked with) experienced in the video game industry, which ranges from things like marketers' response to female employees' objections that an ad felt hostile toward women being that that was intentional because they wanted to show guys that the game was for them and not scare them away by having it be female-friendly, to suppression of dealing openly and fairly with harassment, to continuing to use booth babes despite objections from female employees and journalists that it makes them less safe and less effective at conventions, to the reaction toward people like Anita Sarkeesian and Jennifer Hepler when they express opinions about games. (Which, when I say the video game industry is actively, even militantly, misogynistic, is the sort of thing I'm talking about.)
So.
I brought up privilege because I don't think you can talk about making gaming spaces more women-friendly without talking about it. There's stuff that happens that makes some women feel uncomfortable that well-intentioned guys who want them to be comfortable may not notice. Because of privilege. One of the steps in fixing that problem is getting women to speak up rather than silence themselves. But another important step is getting guys to be aware of this stuff. Which means, for them, learning to see past their privilege.
Does that make sense?
It's not that most men are automatically doing something wrong because they have privilege. It's that the natural human tendency to not notice things that don't apply to us creates difficulties when we're talking about making gaming more inclusive, because it means that sometimes men help tacitly perpetuate sexism simply by not noticing it, which makes women feel like they don't have support in dealing with it, and reduces the likelihood of consequences for the guys who actively engage in it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, this is the saddest thread I've probably ever read on this site. The funny thing is the original post is misogynistic wether it's meant that way or not. Solely becuase it's MEN'S duty to solve the problems of women. I'll let you in on the secret answer...... if you don't like any game leave. That advice is haned out in every thread so why it isn't mentioned here is obvious, because it's easier just to shame men. So before this post gets deleted for censor.....um....derailing I'll make a few points and jet out:
- talking about privilege is a form shaming language on par with slut shaming. If you don't think so then let me ask you, what good does is serve your argument to put the ones you seek sympathy from on the defensive? None...
-paizo, what good is it to allow threads that may make 95% of your core demographic feel they are responsible for the misdeeds of others and that the should feel guilty for not solving every problem a person may encounter in life? All entertainment is about escapism. All political threads do is divide people into teams so the can duke it out. Not very welcoming if you ask me.
-lastly men, stop apologing , the vast,vast majority of you are not deviants and don't need to answer for the very few that are. I recomend going to youtube and searching for "MGTOW" videos be either stardusk or barbarosssa. It's time you were a least offered the "red pill". Thats all I have to say on the subject.
|
Wow, this is the saddest thread I've probably ever read on this site. The funny thing is the original post is misogynistic wether it's meant that way or not. Solely becuase it's MEN'S duty to solve the problems of women. I'll let you in on the secret answer...... if you don't like any game leave. That advice is haned out in every thread so why it isn't mentioned here is obvious, because it's easier just to shame men. So before this post gets deleted for censor.....um....derailing I'll make a few points and jet out:
- talking about privilege is a form shaming language on par with slut shaming. If you don't think so then let me ask you, what good does is serve your argument to put the ones you seek sympathy from on the defensive? None...
-paizo, what good is it to allow threads that may make 95% of your core demographic feel they are responsible for the misdeeds of others and that the should feel guilty for not solving every problem a person may encounter in life? All entertainment is about escapism. All political threads do is divide people into teams so the can duke it out. Not very welcoming if you ask me.
-lastly men, stop apologing , the vast,vast majority of you are not deviants and don't need to answer for the very few that are. I recomend going to youtube and searching for "MGTOW" videos be either stardusk or barbarosssa. It's time you were a least offered the "red pill". Thats all I have to say on the subject.
I think you judge to soon.
-It is mens duty to change tis (in a gaming group or in an industry), ifa) the gaming group up to this point is male only and a new player is a woman. It is mens duty then, because it is the 'duty' of the established players to help the new one fit in.
b) the problem is the behavior of men. Women can ask them to change the behavior or leave, but only the men in question can change that behavior.
None of these is misogynistic...
This thread is not about making anyone feeling guilty, but if you want to discuss the matter (and give advice to those who ask for it), you need to establish basics. The talk about male privilege for example, can be really helpful to those who don't understand the problem because they didn't try (or didn't succesfully try) to see a situation that someone (in this case a woman) felt strongly incomfortable in through the eyes of said someone.
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wow, this is the saddest thread I've probably ever read on this site. The funny thing is the original post is misogynistic wether it's meant that way or not. Solely becuase it's MEN'S duty to solve the problems of women. I'll let you in on the secret answer...... if you don't like any game leave. That advice is haned out in every thread so why it isn't mentioned here is obvious, because it's easier just to shame men. So before this post gets deleted for censor.....um....derailing I'll make a few points and jet out:
So you take the OP's solicitation of advice to make his gaming environment more welcoming to women as some sort of misguided chauvinistic chivalry, and then the best advise you can come up with is "don't bother, they shouldn't be here, if they don't like it they should leave"?
- talking about privilege is a form shaming language on par with slut shaming. If you don't think so then let me ask you, what good does is serve your argument to put the ones you seek sympathy from on the defensive? None...
No one can make you feel inferior, or put you on the defensive, without your consent. Why is it that you feel defensive when discussing the premise of privilege? I didn't ask to be born male, white, American, or wealthy, but I would have to be a fool to not recognize that all of those things have benefited me greatly. What about that should I rail against?
-paizo, what good is it to allow threads that may make 95% of your core demographic feel they are responsible for the misdeeds of others and that the should feel guilty for not solving every problem a person may encounter in life? All entertainment is about escapism. All political threads do is divide people into teams so the can duke it out. Not very welcoming if you ask me.
So now you speak for 95% of the core demographic of Paizo? I don't remember electing you to speak for me. I don't feel responsible for the misdeeds of others- they are responsible for their own misdeeds. What I do lament, and wish to change, is the perception that those misdeeds are not greeted with appropriate opprobrium by the rest of us- the 95%, I suppose, and that that perception can limit the opportunities for good people to enjoy their time at a wonderful game. This thread is supposed to be about ways to do that. Can you contribute in that vein?
-lastly men, stop apologing , the vast,vast majority of you are not deviants and don't need to answer for the very few that are. I recomend going to youtube and searching for "MGTOW" videos be either stardusk or barbarosssa. It's time you were a least offered the "red pill". Thats all I have to say on the subject.
You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity.
I want to try again with the question from 200 posts ago: Other than maybemaking the art a bit less in-your-face, what (if anything) could Paizo be doing to make the game more friendly / interesting / accessible to women?
No question, they've already done a lot. ** spoiler omitted **
All that said, this remains a very male dominated hobby. And when I look at the above list, I gotta say that a lot of it reads like not making the game *un*attractive. That is, they've removed a lot of potential stumbling blocks. But what (if anything) could they be doing to get more women and girls interested in the game?
I honestly don't know if--at least by themselves--Paizo could do more than they are. They design a good product, they have vocal female members of the team, showing women can and do work in gaming (something that isn't always apparent, depending on where you look). The occasional thing that might come up, I find that Paizo usually listens to feedback on it.
The only thing I can think of is to do some marketing that shows women playing the game. Paizo's ads tend to focus on the product itself, not the players. While there's good reason for that, there is something to the old D&D commercials, however cheesy they were, that showed boys and girls sitting around the table having fun (not that Paizo can afford to do a commercial, but maybe an online or magazine ad). Maybe if nothing else, throw up a Youtube channel with videos that highlights gaming sessions run by the Paizo staff, including women. Just seeing other women play is a big help. (Also, this just helps market the game generally, if it looks fun to play.)
This extends to the gaming community at large, however--visibility of women gamers needs to be increased dramatically at cons, in marketing, in game demos, etc.
A few posts above talk about the little girl looking at the table filled by the big boys and wondering if she will be welcome there.
If you're new to a hobby, and you go in, and you see a lot of people who are not like you, you tend to feel self-conscious. It's like a guy walking into a knitting stitch-n-b+!+& session, as more women than guys tend to be into knitting. There's a point where you just go, "I like this, I know I have something to add, but do they really want me because I'm me?"
The way to make sure anyone feels sure the answer is "yes" is to act like it. At cons and gaming events, make sure you've got some women at the table. Have a women gamers panel discussion.
When the little girl sees some big girls sitting in beside the big boys, then she'll feel braver about asking if she can join in.
I'm unaware of anything that a group of women would do that would be unacceptable in some way to the man joining in. I'm having trouble imagining a scenario where a bunch of girls treat a guy as being weak/inept, talk over him, and be generally creepy.
I could go on with a number of nasty anecdotes, but at the near-certain risk of derailment... so I'll hold off on that. I'd rather continue to read your (and others') comments, which I've done thus far with great interest.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Understand that males of all ages may not have the tools to understand their own idiocy. Women must train and inform their male counterparts where the boundary is and enforce it.
If the question is, "how do we make the hobby more welcoming to women," I'm not entirely certain that the best approach is to teach them that "all men are inherently worthless bratty children too stupid to be aware of their own pathetic social inadequacy, and who are desperately in need of training by women, who are all inherently superior" -- which is what that quote sort of implies.
I have no problem at all with women telling me what I can do better -- I welcome the opportunity. On the other hand, I'm starting to have problem with someone (presumably another guy, although I admit there's no way to tell on Teh Interwebz) telling me how worthless I must be, despite not even knowing me.
-paizo, what good is it to allow threads that may make 95% of your core demographic feel they are responsible for the misdeeds of others and that the should feel guilty for not solving every problem a person may encounter in life?
Could you please cite your sources that males are 95% of gamers?
My experience is quite contrary to that number. Most of the gaming groups I know of consist of 25-75% women (and I am speaking about hundred or more of gamers in my city plus a few more hundreds that are friends, acquaintances, friends of friends, acquaintances of acquaintances, people I have seen and spoke with on my and other people's lectures on gaming conventions).
To focus solely on Pathfinder (which is rather rare here), my group is 3 women, 3 men and me-male GM (50% of players, 42% gamers). Another Pathfinder group in the city I live that I know of is 20-40% women (I am not sure I'd have to ask friend whose friend is GM of that group).
That can be dramatic difference in gamers/fantasy & sf fans demographics between America and Europe, however.
For the record: as an adult I've played in a few sausage fests, but most groups I have participated in have been at least 20% female ranging up to a high of, um, whatever 3 out of 7 is.
EDIT: Many more (girlfriends and wives) were invited but they thought D&D was for losers.
Last home game: total 6 males, 4 females (overlapping attendance, not all at once! and not including me as the DM)... so 60% male participants overall. On any given game night the demographic might range from 50% to 90% male. So, yeah, not on a par with overall societal demographic, which implies to me that there IS a lot more I can do.
When I started playing regularly, I want to a school that was 70/30 female to male; our gaming groups there were all female to mostly female, but of course the general area demographics influenced that (although I'm told that for awhile the gaming club was mostly male despite this, until my and some nearby classes moved in).
I'm in one group where I am one of two women vs three men (incl GM), and in another where I am one of three women vs three men. I'd say most of our groups end up at least 50/50.
I don't know demographically how many Tabletop RPGers are women. It would be interesting to know at least, say, what is the ratio of women to men at, say, GenCon. And of course there's the well known statistic published by the Electronic Software Association that 47% of video gamers are women, and there are almost twice as many adult women who play video games than there are teenage boys.
|
|
late to the conversation but...
In my kingmaker game, one the characters was reincarnated as a centaur is a preparing to get adopted into the Nomen tribe, part of which is deciding who her mate will be.But that's okay because you know and are friends with the player. If I was told that, because I was female, I had to choose a mate and male characters didn't, that would be the last time we played together.
it sounds here as if the reason was because her character was joining the centaur tribe, not because she was a female. the male characters weren't centaurs joining the tribe.
It is responsibility of those with privilege to fight on behalf of those without.
Sure, and in general I agree. But from some posts I question whether it's so much "fighting on behalf of" vs. "obnoxiously currying favor with."
My experience is that when gaming with women (or anyone) I treat them with the same dignity and respect that I would treat them in any facet of life.
In one of the groups I game in (4 white dudes (WDs), an Asian lady (AL) and half-hispanic myself) occasionally the GM and one of the WDs will occasionally go off the rails (once every couple of sessions) talking about women. Usually this involves one of the following: Their perception of women's propensity for shopping and admiring material things, the bustiness/sluttiness of a female character one of the WDs is playing, or off-base rape comments. Fortunately, AL is used to these two WDs (her b/f and roommate, respectively) being juvenile and the rest of the group is pretty good at telling them that they're off-base and getting them back to the game.
For gamers in a similar situation (gaming with otherwise decent people who occasionally turn into troglodytes) my advice is to make eye contact with the aggrieved player and maybe raise an eyebrow to let them know what you think of the other gamers running their mouth. Then turn to the players that are being idiots and ask them politely to stop being knuckleheads and steer them back to the game.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually saying "my group" enough times is a form of collecting data about such numbers. We could start a separate thread for that, however to avoid cluttering this.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
-It is mens duty to change tis (in a gaming group or in an industry), ifa) the gaming group up to this point is male only and a new player is a woman. It is mens duty then, because it is the 'duty' of the established players to help the new one fit in.
b) the problem is the behavior of men. Women can ask them to change the behavior or leave, but only the men in question can change that behavior.None of these is misogynistic...
THIS. It's so frustrating, so tiring to always have to ask people to treat you decently with no one to back you up*. And without allies, all you can do is ask, while the harassers can do whatever they want. We're not asking you to start a crusade on our behalf; we're asking you to listen respectfully when we speak up about a problem**, and say something when you see people behaving like jerks.
For those who espouse "You can always leave" as an answer, I recommend this article from Gaming As Women for another perspective.
* I'm grateful to work in a very supportive workplace, especially after all the horror stories I've heard from friends in the tech industry—like being told by HR that harassment doesn't count if it's not in English, and that guys who physically corner and trap you in a confined spare are "just being friendly and you're too sensitive."
** And if it sounds trivial, consider that it might be trivial bs that we're having to deal with ALL THE TIME, and are totally sick of it.
JP I think you missed my point. To simplify; Having worked in male-centric and at one point misogynistic career fields it has been my experience that changes are driven by the high level managers. The managers were forced to care because women didn't take the harassment, the subsequent mid-level blow off or the eventual high-level disregard. They stood tall endured the fight and forced the management via their accountants and painfully pricey lawsuits to change long standing practices to be more inclusive for women. Paizo is IMHO a great place to work because of conscientious management that would never allow that sort of BS to occur in the first place.
Ah, that makes sense. Sorry I misunderstood your point.
It's not always as simple as "Just stand up for yourself," though, at least, not if you want to keep your job. When you have people telling you from all sides that yes, you can fight this fight, but then there's a real possibility you won't be able to get another job if you do, it's not at all a simple choice. I informed HR, but I also immediately started looking for another job. The guy was still there long after I left, so I didn't exactly win any grand battles for equality. I don't know if there were consequences for him, but clearly they didn't threaten his remaining employed.
You think, "Okay, dying on this hill with the flag held high may make things better for other women in the industry, but, well, I'd prefer to keep working."
Paizo is a better place to work than most places I've been for a lot of reasons. I think having a female CEO is a big one -- the fact that the highest position in the company is held by a woman signals even before you get into details that women are not subordinate or powerless here. There are a lot of women on staff, which means that you're not going to feel isolated or other because of your gender. There are a lot of men here who are very determined to ensure everyone gets treated equally. And Paizo just hires really good, decent people, male and female. Altogether, it creates an environment where you don't even need to worry about this stuff. And I think that has a direct positive effect on the quality of the products.
It's too bad we can't get that sort of gender balance and the sort of people that work here aren't universal in the games. Hopefully, some day we'll be a lot closer.
But I believe fixing the actual, intentional bad stuff that can happen to women in male-dominated environments has to come from both genders. Women need to speak up, even though it can be scary, because transparency about this stuff is the only way it's going to get fixed, and men need to make clear that they won't support other men who are trying to make the environment hostile toward women -- whether it's through telling other men they don't like the language they're using about women, or, if there is only one woman there, going to her and saying something like, "Hey, I noticed you're the only woman in this gaming group/on this panel/at this gaming event. I just wanted to check in and ask how it's going for you -- you having fun?"
Hopefully, she looks at you in surprise, and says, "Of course."
Which there's a good chance she will, because things are changing for the better. There are plenty of mixed-gender gaming groups that have no gender-related problems.
But if, for whatever reason, that's not the case, at least you've made it clear that there's at least one guy there who's willing to listen. That can make all the difference.
Yep. Not the gaming industry's brightest moment.
Nor its brightest designer. Everything that guy has sloughed off in the past several years just seems like oily passive-aggression trying to pass itself off as something provocative.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think you can talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women without talking about privilege.
I would suggest that if you want to have a discussion about make gaming more welcoming to women, and you're having that discussion with a group of men, then you specifically need to avoid bringing up a term that is loaded with baggage and has historically been used to refer to men in a very negative context. If you want to talk about unintentional barriers to entry fine, but using the term privledge is a nonstarter. You can shame some of the younger men into buying your arguement but it'll backfire on you later when they come to realize that you're passive agressively manipulating their emotions and trying to make them feel guilty for things they've neither done nor contemplate.
So with that in mind, try approaching the issue (women being more welcome) not from a "men bad" perspective as you have been (whether you're aware of it or not), and look at it as a marketing question: How do you make this more appealing to a new demographic? What you need to focus on is grabbing market share from the other hobbies and activities out there that women engage in rather than saying your current customers are driving away new ones.
If that means creating modules that are female friendly and marketing them to girls/women then do that. If that means creating modules meant to be ran by fathers for their kids then do that (and that's something I personally would be very interested in.) If that means trying to make gaming more mainstream by advertisements with celebrities then do that... but going after the guys who are having fun playing with a group of buddies where they don't have to self-censor constantly for fear of offending someone? That's just a bad idea.
(I'd write more about specific issues I have with the whole privledge arguement but it's not relevant to the direction the thread needs to go in. For those who are more interested, look up Warren Farrell's Myth of Male Power or google shaming tactics.)
"Hey, I noticed you're the only woman in this gaming group/on this panel/at this gaming event. I just wanted to check in and ask how it's going for you -- you having fun?"
Hopefully, she looks at you in surprise, and says, "Of course."
Or she'll look at you and think you're hitting on her and as you said on page one:
"...don't single out the female player(s) for commentary."
If you don't treat this as a gender issue it becomes far less contenious and the avenues to fix the underlying problem (i.e. don't play with jerks, male or female) become far more effective.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think you can talk about making gaming spaces more welcoming for women without talking about privilege.I would suggest that if you want to have a discussion about make gaming more welcoming to women, and you're having that discussion with a group of men, then you specifically need to avoid bringing up a term that is loaded with baggage and has historically been used to refer to men in a very negative context. If you want to talk about unintentional barriers to entry fine, but using the term privledge is a nonstarter.
'Privilege' is a fairly common term in discussions of inequality, whether based on sex, race, income bracket, or whatever. It's pretty much standard lingo for such topics, so whatever baggage you're experiencing is yours, not the term's.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
'Privilege' is a fairly common term in discussions of inequality, whether based on sex, race, income bracket, or whatever. It's pretty much standard lingo for such topics, so whatever baggage you're experiencing is yours, not the term's.
You missed the point.
|
|
Understand that males of all ages may not have the tools to understand their own idiocy. Women must train and inform their male counterparts where the boundary is and enforce it.If the question is, "how do we make the hobby more welcoming to women," I'm not entirely certain that the best approach is to teach them that "all men are inherently worthless bratty children too stupid to be aware of their own pathetic social inadequacy, and who are desperately in need of training by women, who are all inherently superior" -- which is what that quote sort of implies.
I didn't say anything of the sort. I said, in cheeky way, that girls need to tell the guys in the group when they cross the boundary. A boundary not all guys are equipped to see or respect.
I have no problem at all with women telling me what I can do better -- I welcome the opportunity. On the other hand, I'm starting to have problem with someone (presumably another guy, although I admit there's no way to tell on Teh Interwebz) telling me how worthless I must be, despite not even knowing me.
I was simply adding a bit of levity with my cheeky language. I was actually enforcing the privilege argument with out using that language.
Wut. Srsly.
What I'm hearing here is that you can't even state a simple fact about there being institutionalized social advantages for one group of people that are largely invisible to them, in the hopes that it can become more visible, without being shut down because you're supposedly being insulting, manipulative, and trying to make people feel guilty.
Are you talking about men or women here? And I'm not saying that to be facesious (spelling is off) but rather because it works for discussions about both genders. And that's why bringing it up at all in the context of making women more welcome to gaming table is a poor way to address the issue.
What the effing eff. How is it even possible to have a conversation with people who automatically get angry and accuse you of stereotyped female behaviors in response to a discussion of the cultural matrix?
Change female to male in the above and you know where some of the guys in the thread are coming from. If you want sympathy for women's issue's, then you should probably have and express it for male issues too.
However if you want to discuss actual solutions then that disucssion is largely irrelevant because really what it boils down to is a marketing issue and not a gender/political correctness one.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps, just perhaps, the men on this thread can take a step back from mansplaining what the women are doing wrong while discussing this issue and simply READ and ABSORB what they are saying.
It's not a question of whether you agree. Or whether it makes you feel bad. Frankly, WMP exists. The evidence is easily and widely available. Arguing against it or demanding additional proof is trolling on par with demanding more proof for evolution or climate change. The need says far more about you than about the state of reality.
So just hush up and listen. If you disagree, that's your right, but I'm certain neither the OP or the majority of readers here want to hear how offended you are.
On topic, I recently attended my first con since being a teenager (let's say 20 odd years). My wife, daughter and son accompanied me and we all played a PFS game. For what it's worth, my 10 year old daughter's excitement at the prospect grew exponentially when she learned a female GM had volunteered to run our table. And in at least one instance that female judge, rightfully, slapped me down for not giving my own daughter enough time to make her own decisions in-game.
It's not an easy topic to deal with. But it's a heck of lot easier if those of us with the power talk less and listen and reflect and change a bit more.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't read the entire thread, but I want to say that I really approve of a lot of the steps Paizo is taking towards less heteronormative gaming. My wife plays Pathfinder with me, and it's important for me that she feels welcome and not like an outsider who is allowed to play by the males.
I would like to see Paizo continue by phasing out the oversexualized armour and clothing in their art. That's a step I would love to see taken in the future, especially if the iconics were to get an art upgrade. I would love to see Seoni with more traditional and functional armour, for example (boob plates are weird, don't make any sense, and serve only to hypersexualize the character).
|
|
Well, I'm not quite sure how I could help on the issue, given that I tend to be equally alienating to both genders thanks to my Aspergers (Though I don't use it as an excuse not to try and be socially decent). I'm the sort of person who's pretty well consigned himself to likely being a perma-virgin.
Of course, in the realm of gaming, I haven't really had many problems, as most female gamers have been treated like/acted like "one of the guys" so to speak. The only real brush with gender politics I've had was with my first DM, Kynn Bartlett, who I respected until I found out he was a hypocrite and a jerk to boot. But I digress.
On the realm of female characters in anything I do, I pretty much think "why not?" on making them Female or LGB or T. Hell, in my own campaign setting, though I haven't written them up yet, I have a transgendered M-to-F Hobgoblin film director (Film cameras have just been invented in-setting) NPC and a goblin shopkeeper NPC with a gay life partner in a slightly grumpy Kobold mechanic.
And as for how to get women into gaming, I always had the idea for a relatively cheap, easy to learn (And, more importantly, easy to teach to your friends) Magical Girl/Shoujou-in-general based RPG (Because that's how I've seen a lot of female nerdlings get into nerdery) that could be sold at school bookfairs (To make it easier for younger female players to access), along with some optional "extra" books (IE. a pregen monster manal/NPC book, a book of sample settings, the list goes on). Anybody who could make that and market it properly to a young female demographic could make quite a pretty penny.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've read most of the thread, but not every post so sorry if this has been mentioned before.
When I first started gaming, it was pretty much my friends and I who played. We were considered nerds, because we were strongly academic, liked computer games and talked about fantasy literature rather than sport or other "hot" topics.
In those early days, the only girl we ever had play in our games was my older cousin. She was far more worldly than any of us. As the DM I was nervous about making things overtly sexist, particularly since I had very little experience with understanding women. In all honesty, she brought the tone of the game down a notch more often than not. Her character was quite sexually confident, and used that to her advantage in many role play situations. As a DM I probably let her get away with more things than other characters trying that stuff, because I honestly had no idea how those situations would play as a person.
So, in my early days, the women who we met who were willing to play were very confident,particularly around men.
Fast forward to the present. I teach now, in a high school with kids ranging from 13 through to 18. Video games are more popular to talk about than sports. Role play games are becoming more normalised because of the computer game industry. I recently started a hobby club at our school, for chess, magic the gathering and role play. It was almost a 50 percent split on male and female attendees. I was surprised to say the least.the girls ranged from all sorts of backgrounds too.
What I've noticed is, girls of this era seem far more confident to get involved in this hobby than ever before. They are now as eclectic a group of participants as the male participants. The gaming groups of the teenage years are far more representative of the whole of society than ever before, and as such I'm seeing more confidence in women to deal with situations of potential sexism, mostly due to having more than one woman at the table.
Some of the stuff being discussed in here may well be the product of the era we grew up in. With luck, this newer generation isn't going to get so much of it,purely since the game is becoming more normalised.
On a side note, the very hobbies that alienated me from popularity as a student, have made me a "cool" teacher to today's kids. Life is ironic.
Cheers